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post #31 of 45 Old 06-03-2018, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Those should work nicely for your application. You should set the volume limit in your AVR to -10 to avoid anyone turning up the volume past the point of no return. First rule of thumb: If it starts sound scratchy and starts to distort, turn it down immediately. You should still consider a sub for fuller sound and more head room.
Yeah, change of situation. My gf's Dad works for a local company which builds speakers and has set me up with some Martin Audio AQ8W's.

These produce a really nice sound but a sub is definitley needed.
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post #32 of 45 Old 06-03-2018, 08:23 AM
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i was going to recommend anything horn loaded.
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post #33 of 45 Old 06-03-2018, 08:40 AM
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You could add something like a 15" Dayton sub for the low end to keep from pushing your main speakers for bass. A lot depends on budget but they are pretty inexpensive.
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post #34 of 45 Old 06-03-2018, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Max Green View Post
I have seen some Jamo XLN 25i's for sale for $80.

Long term: 150W
Short term: 250W

Impedance: 4-8 ohms

Would that be a decent PA-type speaker paired with my Yamaha RX630RDS?
OK,

Time to throw a few things you must understand about speakers. First of all, how many watts it handles does not mean high output. The way to make a speaker higher in efficiency is to increase the size of the radiating surface and keep the cone and voice coil as light in weight as possible--more weight requires more force to move it.

The reason PA speakers, theater speakers and stadium speakers are so !#1!!! loud is they follow those principles--AND they can handle a ton of power. They also use compression drivers, horns, waveguides and every trick in the book to boost efficiency. There are trade offs with all speaker designs, you can give up efficiency in the deep bass response to boost efficiency is common, you'll see giant 18" bass bins that will break your drywall but only go down to 40Hz or so--by design. I can get an 8" subwoofer that goes deeper in bass than a 100 pound 18" PA bass bin easily, although the little 8 incher will go deeper in bass than the giant 18" monster--it can't provide any real high volume output.

Moving to the math part, run a few numbers at you. For a basic party in the basement, a good number to shoot for is 120dB at one meter. Back in the day of dorm parties, I had a pair of 15" 3-way speakers that were rated to do 122dB at one meter at 200 watts RMS. Generally speaking, my amplifier would be bumping along with the 10 to 80 watt lights on the meters for power. The speakers were rated 100dB one watt/one meter--do the math! 10 watts is +10dB of gain and 80 watts is +19dB of gain--add the gain to the efficiency of 100dB at one watt = 110dB to 119dB at one meter.

For this reason, my general concept is my systems should be able to hit around 120dB at one meter to be viable for rockstar/dance party/hell raising mode. It is a general number, you can go less if you don't need rockstar levels of output, are in a small room inside or go higher if attempting to have a block party in the backyard--just a rough number.

You are using an AVR--they are designed to provide peak power for movies which they do very well. A very good tool for that job but--you are pushing it beyond it's design. Dance music is very compressed so the AVR will be loaded down with a very high signal level with very little time to cool down the output transistors. PA amps use plenty of power transistors, larger heatsinks, limiters to prevent clipping and fans to monitor the temperatures inside the box. Throw a dance tune with a heavy bass line in, the PA amp will increase the fan speed to keep itself cool and operating in range. AVRs don't have a fan so will shut down the party with thermal overload protection (you hope!)

Now comes fun with math! OK, say you want 120dB at one meter for rockstar mode. Your Yamaha has 75 watts so convert it to dB gain or basically +19dB of gain. Subtract that +19dB of gain and you'll need speakers that output 101dB at one watt/one meter to get rockstar mode. Say you want to run the AVR at half power max--or 3dB of "headroom" to prevent overheating the thing--then you'll need speakers that produce 104dB at one watt/one meter.

How many consumer audio speakers produce 104dB at one watt/one meter? Well, a Klipschorn would do it--very pretty speaker with a few square meters of very nice wood veneer. Square METERS? Yeah, they are HUGE speakers as 3-way fully horn loaded speakers are. Cost? There are other boutique companies out there that also build very high efficiency, fully horn loaded systems for folks that use 5 to 20 watt tube amps--and you don't want to know the size and cost.

To give you an idea, back in the day I had a pair of PA speakers rated to go down to 45Hz, were 103dB one watt/one meter and quickly introduced me to the members of local law enforcement from a basic 65 watt per channel Onkyo receiver. The downside was they weighed 157 pounds each, stood 4 feet tall and had more carpet than the entire cast of the musical Hair.

Back to what you have, basically you won't get rockstar mode with your size/cost/aethestics restraints--but what can you get? Well, I would go down to the local music store and look at PA speakers that sound good but require subs/bass bins. The Mackie C200 is a 10" two-way that has really good sound quality and run here in the colonies around $160 to $199 each. They pump out around 95dB one watt/one meter, have post mounts for wall mounting and weigh less than 30 pounds. Measure out those speakers and amble on down to your used speaker store and purchase the cheapest speakers you can find working or not that are larger than those Mackies (or whatever you choose) Drag them home, cut out the front bezel of the speakers and gut the box of drivers/crossovers etc. Use the rear input terminal and you can put a SpeakOn connector or whatever connection is on the back of the PA speaker. Get insulation, carpet padding or whatever and pack it behind/beside/top and bottom of the PA speaker and secure the speaker from the handles to the inside of the donor speaker. Take the stock grill and place over the PA speaker face and viola! You have a pretty speaker with a PA speaker inside that can't be seen.

The next issue is subwoofers--to get high output and deep response out of them requires a lot of air movement--speakers are air pumps. The same rules apply but are more extreme, you can get away with just keeping adding more subs until you get the SPL you require. Works in America! The least expensive way to do that and to make sure you don't let the magic smoke out is by using basic 18" powered PA "subwoofers" (more of a bass bin) Get a pair of those, raise the crossover on the Yamaha as high as it will go (120 to 200Hz) to take the bass load off the AVR and let the PA sub amps handle that.

Another lower cost way is to build your own bass bins using reasonably priced 18" PA drivers. This requires you know how to build boxes properly, understand how ported speakers work and can properly setup the PA amp to power them properly AND protect them from frequencies they can't do. Not as easy as you think but plenty of information at the DIY section of thise forum. That is a very deep rabbit hole though--if you decide to go that way because you want to learn how all this works, like the idea of custom building boxes that fit into your room or want to stealth them to look like end tables...a good option but you have to go all in.

To give you an idea of "how loud is loud" go to a THX certified theater and watch an action movie. Might get an app for your phone to read dB to become familiar with those numbers in real time. Say you decide that you want your party system to do exactly that, then things get interesting.

Here is a rough approximation of what it would take to do that in your room, with your AVR and at distances that you choose. If you like the THX reference level, put 105dB down as desired loudness level and whatever distance you are from the speakers. Since you will be using two speakers, put down 2 for speaker number and so on. The program will give you a rough idea of what you need.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

If it was me, I'd scan the for sale places for PA speakers, get their specs and go for powered PA subs in party mode. Costs more that way, they are larger but even 20 years from now it is always good to have a pair of PA speakers--they rock in garage sound systems.

Enjoy the spl calculator--it will quickly answer basic questions for most speakers as long as the efficiency ratings are accurate. Good luck.
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post #35 of 45 Old 06-04-2018, 10:26 AM
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He now has speakers but now needs a sub.
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post #36 of 45 Old 06-05-2018, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Max Green View Post
I'm sorry for sounding completely stupid, however I have lots of parties at my house and I blew my Wharfedale Delta 30s the other day and I need some advice.

I have a Yamaha Yamaha RX-V630RDS receiver and I want to buy speakers that the Yamaha receiver can power really loud without blowing any woofers.

Any suggestions, new speakers or old speakers I can buy second hand, will be appreciated

Thanks
You need an amp or receiver that can deliver high current and not distort and highly efficient speakers. Rated wattage for an amp is not apples to apples across different manufacturers. Also a 3db increase in sound requires doubling the wattage. Maybe you need a seperate power amp (as long as your receiver has pre outs for the front left and right channels) that has say 100 watts 20-20,000 hz both channels driven at 8 ohms that can double the wattage at 4 ohms and new speakers that are highly efficient that can handle 100 clean watts. Then maybe you'll blow your eardrums out but not your speakers. On a multi channel receiver the rated wattage is not with all channels driven and usually has higher distortion than ideal at those outputs. If this all sounds crazy please read up on matching amps with speakers. I don't mean to sound ridiculing but what you seek is not going to happen by changing speakers. Best of luck!
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post #37 of 45 Old 06-05-2018, 04:04 PM
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He now has speakers but now needs a sub.
Subs are easy as most are powered. Good luck.
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post #38 of 45 Old 06-05-2018, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Green View Post
I'm sorry for sounding completely stupid, however I have lots of parties at my house and I blew my Wharfedale Delta 30s the other day and I need some advice.

I have a Yamaha Yamaha RX-V630RDS receiver and I want to buy speakers that the Yamaha receiver can power really loud without blowing any woofers.

Any suggestions, new speakers or old speakers I can buy second hand, will be appreciated

Thanks
If you want really big party sound, buy PA speakers with inbuilt amps. Behringer (Not expensive either) are awesome for this stuff as is Bose. They will blow the neighborhood away, and your roof with it. At high volumes they sound way better than HiFi speakers.
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post #39 of 45 Old 06-05-2018, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Green View Post
I'm sorry for sounding completely stupid, however I have lots of parties at my house and I blew my Wharfedale Delta 30s the other day and I need some advice.

I have a Yamaha Yamaha RX-V630RDS receiver and I want to buy speakers that the Yamaha receiver can power really loud without blowing any woofers.

Any suggestions, new speakers or old speakers I can buy second hand, will be appreciated

Thanks
LOL. In the 60s I remember a quote about rock and roll bands. "If you can't be good be loud".

Truth is. If you want your real friends to like you don't play your music so loud. I have attended parties like you mentioned but they were never at anyones house who were my friends. They were memorable because of how loud they were not because of anything else. Is that what you want want for your legacy?

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post #40 of 45 Old 06-05-2018, 07:41 PM
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Wow, just wow. Look man if you're wanting to throw parties with series music involved, so serious the neighbors will call the cops, now that's a party man, you need a whole new system!

But if you can't afford a serious all new system then lets keep the receiver and go with something like the Klipsch RF-82 II Floorstanding Speaker which has a 98 sensitivity rating and it's only $398 each which is a really good deal for a speaker with sensitivity like that. Combine that speaker with a low cost powered sub woofer like the Monoprice 9723 that cost only $110 and you will have the rocking system you want for your parties and do it at a reasonable budget. Yes the speakers are the most expensive item you need to get but the efficiency rating of those speakers will allow your low horsepower Jamaha sound a lot better.

Of course there are better more efficient speakers but they cost more, a lot more; and there are better sub woofers, but they cost more, a lot more; so if you want to maintain some sense of budget control then get the speakers I recommend, no matter what you have to spend money to replace the speakers you've got you might as well do it right. If you want to blow a huge wad on something completely different then the sky is the limit starting with the replacing the receiver and going with a pro amp, and finding some pro speakers, or basically doing what big churches do for sound and Sweetwater Sound can help you spend all the money you want by getting a second on your home! https://www.sweetwater.com/
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post #41 of 45 Old 06-06-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
Cerwin Vega SL8 or SL12.

Even better, look around for some of the older CVs: D-9 (the original party speaker), AT-15, DX-9. All have fifteen-inch woofers, but be sure the woofer surrounds are good.
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post #42 of 45 Old 06-06-2018, 07:52 PM
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Even better, look around for some of the older CVs: D-9 (the original party speaker), AT-15, DX-9. All have fifteen-inch woofers, but be sure the woofer surrounds are good.
I forgot all about those Cerwin Vega speakers, most of those old D series ran in the mid 90's for sensitivity, but the D9 as you mentioned was the original party speaker because they did run at about 109 DB in sensitivity and that's why they were so loud being played by low powered receivers and even louder with high powered receivers. The sound quality wasn't that good for critical listening but at a party no one is analyzing your sound quality all they care about is volume and lots of it...BUT some people simply love this speaker even for critical listening to classic rock, I personally did not like it, it had a slightly muffled boxy sound, with highs being the worse of any speaker I ever listened to, and the general consensus in the audio world back in the day was that they were not audiophile speakers. Today though these are considered classic and on Ebay with refoam job done they'll run you $650 for a pair, which isn't bad because trying to get that sort of loudness out of a modern speaker you'll pay twice as much. You might be able to find an old pair on Craigslist that needs refoaming and get them for $30 or so then just have them refoamed which professionally it would cost around $110 for each speaker, whereas if you did yourself the kit is about $30 for a pair of speaker foams.
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post #43 of 45 Old 06-06-2018, 08:11 PM
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I remember back in 80's some of the rap boom boxes cost 400...its amazing to think you can power a party with such little...go for it.

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post #44 of 45 Old 06-07-2018, 05:47 AM
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I remember back in 80's some of the rap boom boxes cost 400...its amazing to think you can power a party with such little...go for it.
I remember guys walking down the street carrying those boom boxes on their shoulders with the volume cranked up and display lights dancing, not sure how they could stand that noise blasting directly into their ear. While those things could get reasonably loud they had a lot of distortion to go with it.

Back before they had car systems like they do today (I'm talking back in the 70's) I had a Pioneer Super Tuner 1 KP500, but I couldn't find decent car speakers, they didn't exist, just crappy paper stuff, so since I wasn't spending time at home I took my Montgomery Wards (remember that company?) home stereo speaker boxes and built a bracket that I could slide the speaker boxes into under the rear deck and cut holes in the deck so the sound could come through, then when I wanted the gang to hear the music I simply pulled the speaker boxes out and placed them on the trunk lid and cranked it up.

That Pioneer KP500 was the best car tuner/cassette player made in the day, I wish I still had it! I loved the looks of it, it was the round tuner (FM only) display that just looked right in a car with round dash gauges...in my opinion of course.
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post #45 of 45 Old 06-07-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Max Green View Post
Yeah, change of situation. My gf's Dad works for a local company which builds speakers and has set me up with some Martin Audio AQ8W's.

These produce a really nice sound but a sub is definitley needed.
Well why the hack didn't you tell us you had a potential father-in-law in the speaker making business.... give us the info in order of importance.

Joking aside are they these PA type speakers? Either way it's a nice gift as these as not cheap speakers by any means.

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Last edited by Luminated67; 06-07-2018 at 06:41 AM.
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