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post #31 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 07:38 AM
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The JBL’s would work well also.

He reason JBL and DIY Soundgroup are better is that they are similar designs with compression drivers and are very efficient.

Those JTR 212 HTR/RT’s are (under) rated at 101db per watt. A typical 87-89db rated speaker will not be able to keep up with the JTR’s at higher volumes.

Worst case try them out and see, you may have to move the surrounds closer to the main seating position.
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post #32 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Since the PSA MTM210T kept being recommended here, I looked it up also. My impression is that it is basically comparable to the SVS UT ? Many reviews seem to favor neither the UT nor the MTm. How would it be an improvement over option 1 ?

I am liking the JBL SCS8 also.

After considering the options being given here, the JTR mains are probably out of my league. The JTR mains + sub combo is looking too expensive. I like the 212RT but hesitate on getting the lower model JTR because my situation will make it difficult to upgrade. So perhaps I should wait a few more years for that. (Given my luck I'm betting that these will go up in price by the time I think I'll be ready. The JTR just increased in price in early June. A few days after I learnt about it.)
I think the limit would be stretching the budget to $12k-$13k from option 1.


Can I ask if the JTR Cap need to be positioned away from the walls ? I have space for about 1m (3ft-ish) deep for the subs. This will be at the front wall behind the screen. I dont think moving around a sub this size is feasible for the room.

While the room will be used more for HT, if I think about it, I actually appreciate speaker differences more during music listening. My preference is to have the singer sound like they are in the room (is this how "sound stage" is defined ?), over loudness.
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Perhaps I'd approach it this way to better determine the value.
I found this youtube demo of the 210RT. Lets use this model as a baseline:
https://youtu.be/7J8IyZ6idxQ

Gow would you rate these speakers agains the 210RT ?
210RT / 38-24Khz / $2500
212T / 35-20khz / $2000
212RT / 35-24khz / $2800
212HTR / 60-24khz / $2600
212HT / 60-20khz / $1700

Aside from the frequency, I cant really tell the difference between the 212 models. Is the difference between 20khz vs 24khz between T and RT worth $800/piece ?

Is the 212HT good enough for music ?

Hi,

I really don't know if there is an easy way to help you sort through some of your options, but I will give it a shot. To recap what you have said about your objectives and preferences I would summarize as follows. You said that your listening is about 70/30 movies to music. You also said that for music, you are after realism and soundstage more than loudness. So, you want to put together a first-class music system and you want to put together a really good 7.1.4 HT system. (.1 is still dual subs and I am assuming that you will take the advice to use 4 ceiling speakers.)

It seems to me that you are going to have to economize somewhere. Although you didn't ask for help on this part, I would start by economizing on the electronics. I would buy a Marantz SR 7011 or 7012 AVR and use it to power your surround and overhead speakers. You could still get the Emotiva for LCR duties. That will save you some money, with zero reduction in discernible sound quality or system functionality. (You will want to check your channel deployment strategy. You may want to get an Emotiva which can run 5 channels rather than three in the scenario I am proposing.)

Something else to consider, as you compare the various speakers, is that you will be getting a substantial upgrade in sound quality and performance, compared to your existing Polk's, with almost anything you choose. With that said, I would probably eliminate the SVS Ultra's, particularly since you already auditioned them and weren't especially impressed. I would probably still keep the PSA speakers under consideration. I have read too many good owner reviews from people I trust, including Ray (imureh) to discount them out of hand.

With respect to the JTR speakers, which is where we can all tell you really want to go, it seems to me that you can go for the top-of-the-line RT's or you can compromise somewhat on the 212T or HT. When I say "compromise" it won't be a compromise compared to the Polk's you are used to, or even to the PSA speakers. It will only be a step down from the very best speakers that JTR offers. However, it will be a very large step up compared to what you have heard before. I think it is important to keep that in perspective. In theory, there may always be something a little bit better, but how good is good enough? And, how far can you stretch your budget?

Given your overall situation, if I had to compromise, I would probably select the 212T for the lower extension. That way, if you did want to use the speakers, without subs for music, you still could. With respect to your question about the difference between 20KHz and 24KHz, there is no practical difference. It isn't only that most men over 30 can't hear frequencies above about 15 or 16KHz. It's also that there is so little content in that range anyway. An octave consists of 8 notes, so in the entire frequency range between 10KHz and 20Khz, there are only 8 pure tones (sine waves). And, no musical instruments play fundamentals anywhere nearly that high, even if we had sources that would carry that content. I wouldn't worry about the difference between 20KHz and 24KHz if I were you.

Finally, though, something that I wouldn't compromise on too much is subwoofers. That is especially the case if 70% of your listening involves movies. There is just too much content under 30Hz in many action movies and blockbusters that you would miss out on, if you didn't have good subwoofers. This is a point that I made before that may have been missed. Regardless of how strong your front speakers may be, you may still want to have independent control of the volume of your bass frequencies--especially for movies.

As we drop below Reference listening levels, the bass equilibrium changes, since we don't hear low-frequencies as well as those in our normal hearing range. In order to restore equilibrium, the great majority of listeners need to add back some bass. Having separate subwoofers not only allows you better placement opportunities (and yes, they can be close to a wall) but it also allows you to adjust the amount of bass you are hearing. In a good HT system, I would almost guarantee that you will find that adjustment ability to be very important.

You mentioned having Cap 4000 ULF's in one of your scenarios. I would instead recommend stepping down to dual Cap 2400 ULF's. The new ones have a 10Hz port tune. Combined with speakers which can produce strong SPL down into the mid-bass range, I believe that the 2400's will give you an ideal bass system, especially in a room which you have described as being about 4300^3.

I haven't tried to add the cost of all of that up, but I think that if you economize (without compromising any performance) on electronics, make good selections for your front three speakers and your subs, and try to be just a little bit economical on the slightly less important surround and ceiling speakers, you will get as close to the ideal music/HT system that you possibly can for anywhere close to your budgeted amount. I hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Mike

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post #33 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, Mike. That was one detailed, well thought out explanation. Thank you.
I think I can follow your logic to the letter.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
With respect to the JTR speakers, which is where we can all tell you really want to go
Was it obvious ? Lucky I dont play poker...
I was trying to be objective, since I've never actually auditioned the JTR, but yes the users feedback seem to be great. Got myself curious.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
it seems to me that you can go for the top-of-the-line RT's or you can compromise somewhat on the 212T or HT. When I say "compromise" ... It will only be a step down from the very best speakers that JTR offers.
Yes, I agree. I think we can cross out the 215s from the list

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Given your overall situation, if I had to compromise, I would probably select the 212T for the lower extension.
Yes, agree to this too. There's a $600 difference from the 212RT but I'm still hesitant to cross the 212RT just yet...

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
With respect to your question about the difference between 20KHz and 24KHz, there is no practical difference. It isn't only that most men over 30 can't hear frequencies above about 15 or 16KHz.
That clears it up. I guess I'm crossing out the 212RT too.
I'm still not sure on how dual compression driver will translate into better sound or just more loudness.
Googling it shows that it is the source of the sound so I guess dual source means more loud ?

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I wouldn't worry about the difference between 20KHz and 24KHz if I were you.
Just to be sure that I understand, this means that the 212T is not much of a compromise over the 212RT ? I am definitely not that young anymore. And listening to the kids cry when they were a baby probably didnt help my ears.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I would instead recommend stepping down to dual Cap 2400 ULF's.
That is a sound logic Mike. Agree to this also.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
...try to be just a little bit economical on the slightly less important surround and ceiling speakers
Yes again. I think at the moment a compromise is needed so that I can find the balance between the mains, subs, surrounds, and the budget.

So I think I'm now down to:
Option 6: $13,060
3xJTR212T
2xpolk tower for sides
2xpolk surround for rear
4xJBL SCS8 for atmos
2xCAP2400

I'll try to save on the electronics by using the old outlaw 5 ch amp for the polk.
So for the JTR212T I will use an emo xpa-dr3 600w/ch (is this enough to power 212T or 212RT ?)

For the JBL SCS8, I will use an emo XPA5. The SCS8 is a bit of a wild card here because I dont know much about it. But if it works well as atmos, perhaps over time I will replace the polk with thw jbl also.

Would you mind telling me how this is as a plan ?

Thank you again for the detailed advise Mike
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post #34 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-t...ries/volt.html

The JBL’s would work well also.

He reason JBL and DIY Soundgroup are better is that they are similar designs with compression drivers and are very efficient.

Those JTR 212 HTR/RT’s are (under) rated at 101db per watt. A typical 87-89db rated speaker will not be able to keep up with the JTR’s at higher volumes.
Thanks for the info @raynist .
I see...
So the sensitivity is more important than I had previously thought. Learned something today...

I'm leaning more towards the JBL SCS8 right now, but I'm liking the Volt also.
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post #35 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Wow, Mike. That was one detailed, well thought out explanation. Thank you.
I think I can follow your logic to the letter.



Was it obvious ? Lucky I dont play poker...
I was trying to be objective, since I've never actually auditioned the JTR, but yes the users feedback seem to be great. Got myself curious.


Yes, I agree. I think we can cross out the 215s from the list


Yes, agree to this too. There's a $600 difference from the 212RT but I'm still hesitant to cross the 212RT just yet...



That clears it up. I guess I'm crossing out the 212RT too.
I'm still not sure on how dual compression driver will translate into better sound or just more loudness.
Googling it shows that it is the source of the sound so I guess dual source means more loud ?



Just to be sure that I understand, this means that the 212T is not much of a compromise over the 212RT ? I am definitely not that young anymore. And listening to the kids cry when they were a baby probably didnt help my ears.


That is a sound logic Mike. Agree to this also.



Yes again. I think at the moment a compromise is needed so that I can find the balance between the mains, subs, surrounds, and the budget.

So I think I'm now down to:
Option 6: $13,060
3xJTR212T
2xpolk tower for sides
2xpolk surround for rear
4xJBL SCS8 for atmos
2xCAP2400

I'll try to save on the electronics by using the old outlaw 5 ch amp for the polk.
So for the JTR212T I will use an emo xpa-dr3 600w/ch (is this enough to power 212T or 212RT ?)

For the JBL SCS8, I will use an emo XPA5. The SCS8 is a bit of a wild card here because I dont know much about it. But if it works well as atmos, perhaps over time I will replace the polk with thw jbl also.

Would you mind telling me how this is as a plan ?

Thank you again for the detailed advise Mike
I wouldn’t cross off the 212RT just yet.

Just because something has the same frequency response doesn’t mean it will sound the same. The 2 way CD likely has a smoother frequency response and less distortion as each driver covers a smaller freq range.

I would say for movies the 212T will give you 95% of the performance of the 212RT. For music it may be more like 80%. That 2 way CD sound is intoxicating. There are times where I turn on my system to listen to music for 15 minutes and next thing I know it is 2am. It has such a smooth sound.

Before I found JTR speakers I was 98% movies. When I got my first set of JTR 228 speakers with the one way cd I moved 70% movies. After getting the JTR’s with the 2 way CD I am not probably 80% music!!!

Either way they are going to be worlds better than what you have.
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post #36 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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@raynist you sure got me wondering what this dual CD is. I will try to see if I can learn something about it on youtube.

The 212RT is still lurking in the back of my mind. But it is $2400 difference...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post

So I think I'm now down to:
Option 6: $13,060
3xJTR212T
2xpolk tower for sides
2xpolk surround for rear
4xJBL SCS8 for atmos
2xCAP2400
You are better off, IMO, using 8 identical speakers for the ear-level surrounds and overheads, regardless of which 8 you choose.
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post #38 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
@raynist you sure got me wondering what this dual CD is. I will try to see if I can learn something about it on youtube.

The 212RT is still lurking in the back of my mind. But it is $2400 difference...
Where do you live? Not sure if you can audition locally.

@carp has heard both the 2 way CD and the newer one way cd. His reviews and impressions on the JTR speakers convinced me to give them a try.
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post #39 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks @jjackkrash .
I agree. The polk is there due to budget issue. Plus I'm not too familiar with the SCS8 yet.
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
@raynist you sure got me wondering what this dual CD is. I will try to see if I can learn something about it on youtube.

The 212RT is still lurking in the back of my mind. But it is $2400 difference...
Why $2400? I thought the 212RT was $600 more than the 212T?
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@raynist , I am in Indonesia and pretty sure there is no way to audition it anywhere near by.

Can you point me to where the review by @carp is ?
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post #42 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 01:17 PM
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@raynist , I am in Indonesia and pretty sure there is no way to audition it anywhere near by.

Can you point me to where the review by @carp is ?
I believe there is a guy on the JTR speaker thread from Indonesia. I will try to find his username.

I will try to find the posts by @carp this evening.

The user is @coolgeek

He is in Malaysia not Indonesia, but looks like you could be close depending on where in Malaysia.

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post #43 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Wow, Mike. That was one detailed, well thought out explanation. Thank you.
I think I can follow your logic to the letter.



Was it obvious ? Lucky I dont play poker...
I was trying to be objective, since I've never actually auditioned the JTR, but yes the users feedback seem to be great. Got myself curious.


Yes, I agree. I think we can cross out the 215s from the list


Yes, agree to this too. There's a $600 difference from the 212RT but I'm still hesitant to cross the 212RT just yet...



That clears it up. I guess I'm crossing out the 212RT too.
I'm still not sure on how dual compression driver will translate into better sound or just more loudness.
Googling it shows that it is the source of the sound so I guess dual source means more loud ?



Just to be sure that I understand, this means that the 212T is not much of a compromise over the 212RT ? I am definitely not that young anymore. And listening to the kids cry when they were a baby probably didnt help my ears.


That is a sound logic Mike. Agree to this also.



Yes again. I think at the moment a compromise is needed so that I can find the balance between the mains, subs, surrounds, and the budget.

So I think I'm now down to:
Option 6: $13,060
3xJTR212T
2xpolk tower for sides
2xpolk surround for rear
4xJBL SCS8 for atmos
2xCAP2400

I'll try to save on the electronics by using the old outlaw 5 ch amp for the polk.
So for the JTR212T I will use an emo xpa-dr3 600w/ch (is this enough to power 212T or 212RT ?)

For the JBL SCS8, I will use an emo XPA5. The SCS8 is a bit of a wild card here because I dont know much about it. But if it works well as atmos, perhaps over time I will replace the polk with thw jbl also.

Would you mind telling me how this is as a plan ?

Thank you again for the detailed advise Mike

You are very welcome, Hugh! I am glad to be able to help a little. I think that your plan is entirely workable. I like the advice that raynist is giving you regarding the superiority of one speaker over another, and I also like the advice that jjackrash is giving you to try to stay with the same speaker for all of your surround channels. But, you are the one who is going to have to figure out how to pay for this.

If raynist says that putting the two speaker models side-by-side, you would select the more expensive one, I believe him. I would also believe carp who is also someone I respect. But, you may not be able to have the two speakers side-by-side to compare them, or even one of them to listen to. And, either will be a huge improvement compared to the Polk's you are accustomed to, so some degree of compromise may be necessary. Honestly, I think you could say the same thing about comparing dual Cap 4000's to dual Cap 2400's. But, the Cap 2400's will still be outstanding, and if you have a budget you need to stay within (and who doesn't?) then you have a budget.

I think the same thing could be said about the advice to try to use the same speaker for all of your surround channels. That would be the ideal, although a lot of home theaters can't manage that for one reason or another. And, that's where I think that some prioritization is in order. If re-purposing your Polk's temporarily helps you to get your most important system components in place, then so be it. It doesn't have to be permanent, but unless you can expand your budget, some interim compromises are almost certainly going to be necessary.

I will bet that there isn't a person responding to this thread who hasn't built his audio/HT system gradually, over a period of years. I certainly have, and I'll bet that we all understand the importance of budgets, and the necessity for compromise. If you really can afford to eat the elephant all in one big bite, that's terrific. But, if you can't, then I think you will still be well on your way to a first-class audio system with the plan you outlined.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just read one of the recent posts on the JTR speaker thread. Good advice, but when the poster advised you not to mix Polk's and JTR's, because he had tried it, he was forgetting that he wasn't able to do everything at once either. Same thing with the advice to go with Cap 4000's. Unless people are willing to help support this endeavor with a Go-Fund-Me campaign, then you are probably going to have to follow a normal progression to get to an absolutely optimal audio system. I wouldn't get discouraged. I think that the nucleus of your plan is still viable.
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #44 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 05:44 PM
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I say go for the high end CD. I say that because I have owned the 212 HTR's for a couple years, then I owned the 215 RT's for a couple years, and I've had the 210 RT's in my room for a few weeks and the 212 T's for a couple weeks.

In a nutshell, the higher end CD is worth it. Even on movies it makes a difference, but on music it's quite a significant difference.

For 2 channel music the 210 RT is my all time favorite speaker. However... I haven't heard the 212 RT and I have a feeling that I would like it even more since it combines the crazy sensitivity of the 212 HTR I used to own (105-106 sensitivity, not 101 rating JTR gives it) combined with extending to the low 30's hz range would be so awesome. Maybe not though, there is something to be said about how "small" the 210 is, and it can easily be used without subs for music. Placement becomes easier with a smaller speaker.

The 212 T's are nice... but will never have that smooth sound that you can get with the better CD. I read thorugh the thread quickly, but I think the thread starter says he is 30 percent music?

If he buys the JTR's with the higher end CD he will end up with a much higher music percentage than that.

If it were me... I would buy some 212 RT's and "get by" without the really low stuff until I saved up for some subs.

I should say though that I'm currently drinking heavily on my back porch since it's actually nice and cool for once tonight so I hope my advice makes sense. I'll update tomorrow if I read this and it makes no sense.
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@mthomas47 , solid feedback as usual, but also remember the OP indicated he saves big on shipping if he can get everything he needs now. I think at $300 a pop, it is probably worth getting 4 more SCS8s on the boat now rather than waiting till later, especially since I believe the sensitivity difference between to Polks and JTR's is going to be a real challenge when it comes time to level match.
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post #46 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Why $2400? I thought the 212RT was $600 more than the 212T?
Yes you're right. It was 3 am herr and I've done my math wrong. Its suppose to be $1800 difference total for the LCR.
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post #47 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:29 PM
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Yes you're right. It was 3 am herr and I've done my math wrong. Its suppose to be $1800 difference total for the LCR.
You just saved $600!!
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post #48 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:33 PM
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if in kuala lumpur...I would visit singapore for deals local...

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #49 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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But, you may not be able to have the two speakers side-by-side to compare them, or even one of them to listen to. And, either will be a huge improvement compared to the Polk's you are accustomed to,
I like this. I think there is a lesson to being content somewhere in here.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
If you really can afford to eat the elephant all in one big bite, that's terrific.
Haha. I prefer my elephant bite sized. Thank you ver much. But truthfuly, reading more comments below I think I'll try to squeeze some more to get to the RT

Again, sound advise and solid logic. Thank you Mike.
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post #50 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
In a nutshell, the higher end CD is worth it. Even on movies it makes a difference, but on music it's quite a significant difference.
Thank you. This is what I was looking for. A first person review of what the difference between the CD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
For 2 channel music the 210 RT is my all time favorite speaker.
Yes, this model is probably the only one with a "proper" recording on youtube that I thought it has something special about it. I'm hoping the 212 would be better than the 210...

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Originally Posted by carp View Post
but I think the thread starter says he is 30 percent music?
Yes

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Originally Posted by carp View Post
If he buys the JTR's with the higher end CD he will end up with a much higher music percentage than that.
I'll drink to that

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Originally Posted by carp View Post
If it were me... I would buy some 212 RT's and "get by" without the really low stuff until I saved up for some subs.
I'm thinking that if I can squeeze the sub in for now, I can probably get by with lesser sound affect. So I'd delay the ear level surrounds for now.

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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I should say though that I'm currently drinking heavily
That is how I get some of my good ideas. Perhaps with a few sip, I'll convince myself on the RT over the T

Thank you @carp
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post #51 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
@mthomas47 , I think at $300 a pop, it is probably worth getting 4 more SCS8s on the boat now rather than waiting till later, especially since I believe the sensitivity difference between to Polks and JTR's is going to be a real challenge when it comes time to level match.
The shipment part is true. It will probably cost me more than a Cap4000.
Unfortunately I dont think I can squeeze in more for the remaining JBL.
The good thing is they are rather small compared to the JTR, getting them later is much more feasible than getting a tower or sub separately.

So I think the plan is shaping up nicely.
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post #52 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
You just saved $600!!
Haha I like this logic. If I keep saving like this, I might just get the CAP4000
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post #53 of 145 Old 06-13-2018, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
if in kuala lumpur...I would visit singapore for deals local...
I am not aware of local dealer in Sing yet. Do you know of any ? Thanks for the feedback.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #55 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok. So I have let all the info sink in and have decided on the speakers. I think I will go with the 212RT. Thank you again for all of your advise guys.

I actually have another question in relation to the electronics.

Which of these scenarios are preferable for the amps

Scenario 1: $3600
LCR 212RT =
xpa-dr3 [email protected]/ch
Remaining speakers JBL SCS8, Polk tower&surround:
xpa5-gen3 300W/8ohm/ch
and existing
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concerns:
A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa3 at only 600w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

Scenario 2: $4,000
LR mains 212RT:
2x XPA-dr1 1000w/4ohm/ch
Center 212RT +
ear level JBL SCS8, Polk tower and surround:
1x XPA5-gen3 (I think it can run each channel at different impendance) 300W/8ohm/4ch + 490W/4ohm/center channel.
Atmos channels:
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concern:
A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa-dr1 at 1000w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

B. Is it a bad idea to differentiate the amp used for the center channel vs the ones used for the LR channel ? Will it be very obvious ?

I know that the 212RT are sensitive. But (I think I may have mentioned this elsewhere) the spec also states that it needs 2000W. The 215RT also had the same spec and it was mentioned that it needs a lot of power. So these raised my concerns above.

Additional question:
The emo was chosen due to it iffering 220volt input. I'd very much appreciate recommendations on alternatives.

Thank you AVforumers
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post #56 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 03:22 AM
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Good choice on the 212rt's. Also keep in mind that Jeff has upgraded to the B&C compression driver in the T line. He said it performs considerably better than the old driver. Of course the higher end models still use the BMS driver.
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post #57 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Scenario 1: $3600
LCR 212RT =
xpa-dr3 [email protected]/ch
Remaining speakers JBL SCS8, Polk tower&surround:
xpa5-gen3 300W/8ohm/ch
and existing
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concerns:
1. A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa3 at only 600w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

Scenario 2: $4,000
LR mains 212RT:
2x XPA-dr1 1000w/4ohm/ch
Center 212RT +
ear level JBL SCS8, Polk tower and surround:
1x XPA5-gen3 (I think it can run each channel at different impendance) 300W/8ohm/4ch + 490W/4ohm/center channel.
Atmos channels:
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concern:
2. A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa-dr1 at 1000w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

3. B. Is it a bad idea to differentiate the amp used for the center channel vs the ones used for the LR channel ? Will it be very obvious ?

I know that the 212RT are sensitive. But (I think I may have mentioned this elsewhere) 4. the spec also states that it needs 2000W. The 215RT also had the same spec and it was mentioned that it needs a lot of power. So these raised my concerns above.


Congratulations. The LCR are far and away the most important speakers in any audio system. I haven't followed thread but if I could ask, have you decided on the subwoofer? It has got to be JTR 2400 or 4000 right? :-) For your questions, all IMHO, and "in general":

1. Yes. It's a complicated topic but suffice it to say, in general in high-end/high performance audio, a higher rating amplifier is desirable. "Sounds" better, more headroom, and less chance of clipping, which could damage drivers. The demand for current (hence power) could also come from the woofers, especially with ultra low bass played at high volume. You could see glimpse of this in the JTR subwoofer line: 1400 watts for JTR 1400, 2400 watts for big brother 2400, etc.

2. Unequivocally, no, with 1000w/4 ohm (if true) you are most definitely not "under-powering," especially for these highly sensitive speakers. This is a complicated topic also now that I think about it, but at any rate, what JTR states on the web site is "recommended amplification up to 2000 watts RMS (program)." To me, it's more of a warning to NOT run more than 2000 watts into the speaker, and a declaration of the very high power it could TOLERATE/ALLOW. It does NOT mean it needs 2000 watts to sound good. I hope you see the fine point.

3. Yet another complicated topic but in general, no. Difference in the "sound" of good quality solid state amps are hard to detect. After many years in this hobby, to tell a difference I would still have to do careful shoot-out with 2 channel music on familiar materials to tell. The difference usually could be heard in low frequency response, imaging, soundstage depth, etc. In a movie setting (vs music), the difference becomes nearly impossible to detect.
Of note, difference between speakers OTOH are much more significant and easily noted. The speakers, as typical of electro-mechanical interface devices, influence the overall sound much more than difference in ss amps.

4. See above. The speaker doesn't need 2000 watts. I actually think this is a confusing "spec." High end speakers, in general, are not "rated" for power really. Yet another complicated topic :-).

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 06-16-2018 at 05:56 AM.
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post #58 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 06:21 AM
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The JTR 212RT is a wonderful choice!!

They can take 2000w but you will not be able to!!

Talk with Jeff and see what he recommends. I have the 212 HTR and with just a 100w receiver they can drive me out of the room.

At 128w they will put out 122db at 1 meter with their 101db aensitivity, given that they have been tested at 105db that is really 126db.

If you have a receiver that puts out over 40w per channel try that out first before spending a lot of money on a receiver.
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post #59 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you @flat4 , @cannga , @raynist .

It seems that I may have misunderstood what the specs mean. I have always thought: "recommended amplification" to be the minimum required power ... my mistake.
I think this clears up point 1, 2, 4 above.

On point 3, I may have not explained my question clearly. My concern was that , *during home theater use*, would it be noticable if I use different amplifier and different power rating between the LR vs the Center channel ?
That is, if LR is powered by 1000w amp and center is powered by only 490w.

I hope I've clarified the question.
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post #60 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Thank you @flat4 , @cannga , @raynist .

It seems that I may have misunderstood what the specs mean. I have always thought: "recommended amplification" to be the minimum required power ... my mistake.
I think this clears up point 1, 2, 4 above.

On point 3, I may have not explained my question clearly. My concern was that , *during home theater use*, would it be noticable if I use different amplifier and different power rating between the LR vs the Center channel ?
That is, if LR is powered by 1000w amp and center is powered by only 490w.

I hope I've clarified the question.
Should be no difference. You would likely get hearing damage before you tapped out the 500w amp. A 1000w amp will get you 3 more dB of output over a 500w amp. A 2000w amp will get you 6 db of output over a 500w amp. Every doubling of wattage nets you 3 dB of output.

Last edited by raynist; 06-16-2018 at 07:59 AM.
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