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post #61 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Thank you @flat4 , @cannga , @raynist .

On point 3, I may have not explained my question clearly. My concern was that , *during home theater use*, would it be noticable if I use different amplifier and different power rating between the LR vs the Center channel ?
That is, if LR is powered by 1000w amp and center is powered by only 490w.
The receiver will level match them and there is very little chance you will run out of headroom with a 490 watt amp if you are using subs and crossing over at 80hz, at least not if you have normal human tolerances to sound pressure levels and are listening in a normal room. I suspect you are having a hard time wrapping your head around just how much output these baby's have with just one watt.

Also, the difference between 490 watts and 1000 watts is only about 3dB of head room, so no difference except at the margins of ear-bleeding levels.
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post #62 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa3 at only 600w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

***

I know that the 212RT are sensitive. But (I think I may have mentioned this elsewhere) the spec also states that it needs 2000W. The 215RT also had the same spec and it was mentioned that it needs a lot of power. So these raised my concerns above.

Low bass sucks power. If you are using the 215RT in lieu of subwoofers for movies, and want them digging to 10Hz at or near reference, you need to power them like subwoofers. If your are not using them in lieu of subwoofers, I would not sweat the power ratings.
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post #63 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Low bass sucks power. If you are using the 215RT in lieu of subwoofers for movies, and want them digging to 10Hz at or near reference, you need to power them like subwoofers. If your are not using them in lieu of subwoofers, I would not sweat the power ratings.
He is using the 212RT which is about 10db more efficient than the 215RT even though they are rated by JTR as 6db more efficient
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post #64 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 11:43 AM
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@hughhugh , same response as raynist's: I highly doubt if you hear any difference. I use Krell FPB 600 (one of most powerful amps ever made, IIRC tested to 2400 watts into 1 ohm) for L&R, and KAV 100 (100 watt/ch) for my center. In my case especially not necessary because I cross over my center so all the low end is shunted to the JTR subwoofer.

Is your setup for a hometheater? You are not using a subwoofer?

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post #65 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 12:50 PM
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I have seen a video of a pair of Noesis 212's playing above reference levels at the MLP being driven by a Lepai 20W/c T-amp. A normal AVR will be able to power them just fine. No need to have anything over 200W/c to drive them. You will get permanent hearing damage before you "run out" of amp power...
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post #66 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
He is using the 212RT which is about 10db more efficient than the 215RT even though they are rated by JTR as 6db more efficient
Yup, exactly.
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post #67 of 145 Old 06-16-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
I have seen a video of a pair of Noesis 212's playing above reference levels at the MLP being driven by a Lepai 20W/c T-amp. A normal AVR will be able to power them just fine. No need to have anything over 200W/c to drive them. You will get permanent hearing damage before you "run out" of amp power...
I believe this... at least I want to.

However... the 2 systems that I have experienced that you could listen to movie clips all day long at or above reference both have one thing in common. Very efficient speakers AND lots of power feeding them.

@dlbeck and @lukeamdman have the 2 HT's that I've experienced this lack of fatigue above reference. I have been to David's awesome theater a few times dating back 4 years and I always assumed that the reason my ears never had any fatigue was 100 percent due to how great the room is treated. I'm sure that's part of it, but after recently going to Luke's place I'm wondering if there is something else going on here. Luke has a few panels on his walls, very similar to most theaters I have been in. However, we were watching clips like American Sniper at 5 over reference with absolutely no problem.

It makes me think that @desertdome may have been right the whole time when he says that you want to have as much headroom as possible (especially in the LRC speakers) for the dynamic/quick hitting peaks in movies that need a lot more power/output than we think. If we don't have quite enough power our ears and brain don't register distortion, instead they register fatigue (or, ouch it's too loud - turn it down).

I haven't made my mind up, because there could be other variables going on. It could be that the reason +5 in Luke's room sounded fine is because we were destroying our ears with 150 db's earlier in the day. However... I had ear plugs in the whole time for that demo so... I don't know.

I know for certain that the combination of the size of David's room (especially the ceiling height) combined with how great the treatments are give the best/smoothest HT sound I've heard to date. It really sounds like you are in a much larger space than you really are and the speakers just disappear. The room size and treatments along with great speakers account for this great sound quality, but what if the H.E. speakers combined with lots of power account for the lack of harshness at and above reference...

I don't want to believe that you need lots of power for very sensitive speakers, because I have very sensitive speakers and I like using just the AVR to power them. I do not want to have to spend 2-3 grand minimum for the kind of power we are talking about along with being dead quiet. Cheap power = hiss.

So... I hope DD is wrong for those reasons - well, that and I have to think it's bad for our hearing to effortlessly listen above reference so maybe it's in the best interest for both our hearing and our bank accounts to believe that speakers like the 212's don't need a powerful amp!
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post #68 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
The receiver will level match them and there is very little chance you will run out of headroom with a 490 watt amp .
Good to know. Thank you Jjackrash. In fact, I dont like very loud music. Clear and crisp sound is what I'm hoping for.

I just wanted to make sure that the amps have enough power to do this and also make sure it wont break the speaker (read somewhere that it is the lack of amp power that breaks speakers. Not the excess of power...), and it seems that my concern is unwarranted. Got that point now.
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post #69 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
He is using the 212RT which is about 10db more efficient than the 215RT even though they are rated by JTR as 6db more efficient

@jjackkrash , @raynist : yes. And I will be using the cap2400 also. So low frequency should be dealt by the cap2400, except for 2.0

So I believe all is in order here. Thank you
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post #70 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
@hughhugh , same response as raynist's: I highly doubt if you hear any difference...
Is your setup for a hometheater? You are not using a subwoofer?
Yes. I will be getting the Cap2400 also. So the bulk of the power need will be absorbed directly by the sub.

1 ohm speakers ?
I hope one of these days I'd get to hear it. Sounds like an awesome system.

Thank you for the advise
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post #71 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
I have seen a video of a pair of Noesis 212's playing above reference levels at the MLP being driven by a Lepai 20W/c T-amp. A normal AVR will be able to power them just fine. No need to have anything over 200W/c to drive them. You will get permanent hearing damage before you "run out" of amp power...
I believe I've seen this on youtube too. This video is one of the reason I was confused about the spec vs the actual need. I understand now that I've been understanding the spec incorrectly
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post #72 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Cheap power = hiss.
I have not experienced most of the things you explained above except for the speaker hiss.
I'm not sure if its the ground, or the unstable electricity that we have, but this is a problem I get alot and learnt to just live with it.

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so maybe it's in the best interest for both our hearing and our bank accounts to believe that speakers like the 212's don't need a powerful amp!
Yes.
I dont think I'd be listening loud enough to break my ear drums but agree wholeheatedly on the bank account

Thanks for the feedback and sharing @carp
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post #73 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 09:06 AM
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This has been a really fun thread to read through. To be able to jump right into what will likely be close to the absolute best home theater/music combo that money can buy, especially when compared to the typical overpriced underperforming retail setups, is really cool. I can't wait for the OP to get the gear and follow his impressions. When I read the first post I was thinking to myself OMG everyone please steer this guy in the right direction. I'm excited to follow along.
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post #74 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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This has been a really fun thread to read through.
Yes, the support and advice I've received from this forum has been awesome. The level of detail and knowledge that were shared here eliminates any doubts that I may have had.

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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I can't wait for the OP to get the gear and follow his impressions.
it will be a few months until I have everything set up. Construction of the ht room will start in a couple of weeks.

I'll share my impressions when its all set up.

Thank you guys.
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post #75 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I believe this... at least I want to.
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post #76 of 145 Old 06-17-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
Ha, yes very familiar with that, those were my 212's in that video. @Archaea and I swapped speaker for a few weeks a few years back. I took his 228's and he took my 212's.

I've done that same type of testing and yes it's laughable how few watts you need to get to reference with the 212's.

However.... I have heard the 212's in many rooms including mine own (and 2 of Archaea's rooms) and I can't watch movie clips effortlessly above reference with the 212's anywhere - except for dlbeck's room. The other room I experienced this had mains even more effecient than the 212's. The common variable was gobs of power fed to the LRC in both rooms.

I'm not saying it's necessary or even healthy to have crazy efficient speakers with lots of power and watching movies at +5, in fact it's very unhealthy and very unnecessary - but it is fun.
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post #77 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post

So I think I'm now down to:
Option 6: $13,060
3xJTR212T
2xpolk tower for sides
2xpolk surround for rear
4xJBL SCS8 for atmos
2xCAP2400
I am no expert on JTR speakers (that doesn't prevent me from having passionate opinions however ), but unless you hear info otherwise from guys on the speaker forum and/or from Jeff, I would definitely pay a little more to get the 3 way 212RT over the 2 way 212T. First simple reason: Jeff wouldn't charge more unless the 212RT sound better. Second I can't help but think with such a large bass driver, the 3 way RT allows a better transition between treble and bass, the all important midrange.

In fact I *might* even take 210RT over 212T, depend on what Jeff would tell me. If he says the 3 way design is better for music, then I would definitely take 210RT or 212RT over 212T. Speakers (and subwoofers) last FOREVER. It is worth it to pay a little more now to get it right.

Whoever told you to go big on LCR is right on the money. LCR and subwoofer are the 4 most critical speakers of any home-theater - here headroom is king, and critical for enjoyment of blockbuster movies.
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post #78 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 02:29 AM
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Yes. I will be getting the Cap2400 also. So the bulk of the power need will be absorbed directly by the sub.

1 ohm speakers ?
I hope one of these days I'd get to hear it. Sounds like an awesome system.

Thank you for the advise
Ah the JTR 2400 - you're set for bass my friend.

Some of the ultra high-end speakers in US's 2 channel audio scene such as Wilson, Magico, etc., mostly cone and dome design, are very inefficient design with impedance sometimes dropping to a very low 2 ohm range. They in turn require these ultra high current amp like Krell. My Thiel CS5i drops to 1.7 ohm in the bass range and if I use "normal" amp or receiver, most would shut down (some start smelling like something is burning) because of the current draw. Very different from your situation though. You don't need high current amps for the ultra efficient JTR, although as mentioned, I would still prefer the most powerful amp that your budget allows.

Regards, Can
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post #79 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 08:01 AM
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I'm curious as to what volume levels (dBs) some of you watch movies at?

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
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post #80 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 08:09 AM
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I'm curious as to what volume levels (dBs) some of you watch movies at?
with two small girls, I usually tap out at -25 or so
on the master volume. But I’m a volume wuss so would tap out then even if i didn’t have the girls....

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post #81 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 08:29 AM
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I'm curious as to what volume levels (dBs) some of you watch movies at?
-12 to -2 depending on how hot the movies soundtrack is mastered.
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post #82 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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@cannga
I hear you. That is indeed the concensus and I'd be a fool not to listen. 3xJTR212RT and CAP2400 is indeed the route I'm taking. I'll "live" with the lack of proper surrounds for now.

As for volume level, @Luminated67 , I dont really have a set preference. I often find myself turning the volume down during prolonged loud scenes...
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post #83 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 09:58 AM
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@hughhugh yes I agree with your approach. IMHO, do take care of LCR + subwoofer first - this is the framework of the system and where most sound comes from. In particular the center - most ultra high end hometheater systems use full range center speaker (exactly like what you're doing) as this is far and away the most active speaker in any movie.


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post #84 of 145 Old 06-18-2018, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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@cannga That is certainly new info. I have read that center channel is important (and felt also because I often find dialogues are being drowned by other "noises"), but never would have guessed that it is over 80% of the mix. Good to know.
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post #85 of 145 Old 06-26-2018, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi again Gents.

While waiting for a reply from JTR (sent a few emails but no reply yet. Heard from the forum that they are a very busy company...), I figure that I could safe a few more G to use for the surround (probably the single 8s).

Part of the deal with the wife is that she can use the HT for karaoke with friends. So I budgeted JBL PA (prx/srx) and a mixer. Upon more reading on JTR, I suspect that their speaker can be used for live music/karaoke also. Thereby saving me the budget for JBL PA and use it for single 8 surrounds instead.

My questions are:
1. Can the noesis 212RT be used safely for karaoke (vocal/mic).
2. I imagine at the very least, the cap2400 can be used for the sub for both HT and PA system, so no separate sub for the karaoke system is needed. Am I wrong ?

2b. My thinking is:
Use a "Y" xlr splitter to input both signal from preamp (for HT) AND a mixer and a crossover (for karaoke) as a separate input for the noesis and sub.

Upon reading, I see that regular home theater speakers are not to be used for live music/karaoke. So I probably need to have a crossover that has a "limiter" feature to protect the speakers. Is this correct ?

Thank you for the advise Gents.
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post #86 of 145 Old 06-26-2018, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hughhugh View Post
Hi again Gents.

While waiting for a reply from JTR (sent a few emails but no reply yet. Heard from the forum that they are a very busy company...), I figure that I could safe a few more G to use for the surround (probably the single 8s).

Part of the deal with the wife is that she can use the HT for karaoke with friends. So I budgeted JBL PA (prx/srx) and a mixer. Upon more reading on JTR, I suspect that their speaker can be used for live music/karaoke also. Thereby saving me the budget for JBL PA and use it for single 8 surrounds instead.

My questions are:
1. Can the noesis 212RT be used safely for karaoke (vocal/mic).
2. I imagine at the very least, the cap2400 can be used for the sub for both HT and PA system, so no separate sub for the karaoke system is needed. Am I wrong ?

2b. My thinking is:
Use a "Y" xlr splitter to input both signal from preamp (for HT) AND a mixer and a crossover (for karaoke) as a separate input for the noesis and sub.

Upon reading, I see that regular home theater speakers are not to be used for live music/karaoke. So I probably need to have a crossover that has a "limiter" feature to protect the speakers. Is this correct ?

Thank you for the advise Gents.
You should have no problem. Those speakers can go louder than you could ever stand. I don’t see how karaoke could cause any issue. It is just music.

I have always had the best luck calling Jeff as opposed to emailing
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post #87 of 145 Old 06-30-2018, 01:47 PM
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JTR speakers are essentially Pro Audio drivers in consumer audio-sized enclosures.
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post #88 of 145 Old 06-30-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
JTR speakers are essentially Pro Audio drivers in consumer audio-sized enclosures.


What’s the benefit of a pro audio driver?

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post #89 of 145 Old 07-01-2018, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Raynist, Sigpig
Ok. Thanks. I take it that it means the Noesis are safe for karaoke. Some info from the web says that home speakers arent to be used for karaoke.

Anyways, I'll ask JTR too when I can get through.
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post #90 of 145 Old 07-01-2018, 03:41 PM
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What’s the benefit of a pro audio driver?
High sensitivity, high power handling, nearly indestructible.
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