Another speaker shootout-- Chane's A2.4 vs. ?? - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by banyar View Post
I already have dual subs PSA V1811 and my LCR are kef Q100 and kef Q200c.
I'm between three chanes A2.4s and T2s + C2
That'd be a hard call...personally if I had the space and the price difference between the A2.4 and T2 didn't matter to me, I'd lean towards the T2. More & bigger drivers, 3 way vs 2 way design...though I doubt you'd go wrong with either.

The closer equivalent to the T2 would be the A5.4, but those seem to be the most elusive of all the Chanes in terms of constantly being out of stock.
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post #362 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
In fact, here's YOU telling me the Chane measurements look pretty impressive earlier in this thread. Post #323 .


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my apologies.. i must have forgotten, i have had a couple million things on my mind lately (death in the immediate family)

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post #363 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
The A2.4 has a much flatter and more neutral frequency response

To be fair to @Lp85253 and @mpk1970 , those A2.4's have a 6db rise from 2.5kHz to 16kHz as well:



So I'm not sure I'd say that Chane speakers are any flatter than Emotiva in this case.
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post #364 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 05:58 PM
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Another speaker shootout-- Chane's A2.4 vs. ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
To be fair to @Lp85253 and @mpk1970 , those A2.4's have a 6db rise from 2.5kHz to 16kHz as well:







So I'm not sure I'd say that Chane speakers are any flatter than Emotiva in this case.


When did 4.1dB turn into 6?

And I don't have to "say" anything. They are certainly more neutral. Roughly 50% less rise from nearly an octave lower.


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post #365 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
When did 4.1dB turn into 6?


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When each vertical division is 2dB according to your graph.
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post #366 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:04 PM
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Another speaker shootout-- Chane's A2.4 vs. ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
When each vertical division is 2dB.


Nice try. You're incorrect in your synopsis. You seem to need to curate.


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post #367 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
Nice try. You're incorrect in your synopsis. You seem to need to curate.


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Incorrect about what? What am I curating? Anyone with two eyes and the ability to count can read that graph.
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post #368 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:07 PM
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Not to mention that a low Q depression is NOT equal to a high Q dip.


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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
Incorrect about what? What am I curating? Anyone with two eyes and the ability to count can read that graph.


Again. Nice try.


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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
Again. Nice try.


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By all means, show me how I'm reading it wrong. I'd like to learn as much as anyone else. So, please educate away.
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post #371 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
When did 4.1dB turn into 6?

And I don't have to "say" anything. They are certainly more neutral. Roughly 50% less rise from nearly an octave lower.


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i will give you the "more neutral".. it's yours, you win... now i'm gonna talk about how much more i like the amt tweeter vs domes...the combo of smooth and detailed hasn't been matched by any speakers with domes i have heard in the price range
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post #372 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
By all means, show me how I'm reading it wrong. I'd like to learn as much as anyone else. So, please educate away.


You're not seeing anything more than a 4.1dB rise. The chart has been anti-aliased more than once. And I've seen the data from which the chart was derived.

So, aside from the chart being of lower resolution, the difference between the high Q dip and the slightly rising on-axis response above about 2.6khz (which traces very closely to many speakers that employ true ribbon tweeters like the RAALs) is much smaller (and less audible) than the more drastic lower Q depressions seen in the T2.

This being partly due to how humans perceive high Q dips and rises versus low Q abberations. Though I suspect you know this already.


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post #373 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
i will give you the "more neutral".. it's yours, you win... now i'm gonna talk about how much more i like the amt tweeter vs domes...the combo of smooth and detailed hasn't been matched by any speakers with domes i have heard in the price range


Well, wait till you hear a good Beryllium dome (a la Revel). Though I tend to agree with you on most std domes.


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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
You're not seeing anything more than a 4.1dB rise. The chart has been anti-aliased more than once. And I've seen the data from which the chart was derived.

So, aside from the chart being of lower resolution, the difference between the high Q dip and the slightly rising on-axis response above about 2.6khz (which traces very closely to many speakers that employ true ribbon tweeters like the RAALs) is much smaller (and less audible) than the more drastic lower Q depressions seen in the T2.

This being partly due to how humans perceive high Q dips and rises versus low Q abberations. Though I suspect you know this already.
I agree with you about the audibility of Q values but that's moving the goalposts based on your earlier claim.

The graph you provided shows an obvious 6dB treble rise clear as day. The graph I show is from the Chane website so if you have a better graph that shows a flatter response, then I'd love to see it.

If you think a 4.1dB rise is much flatter than a 5dB rise (0.9dB difference), then you have better hearing than I do.
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post #375 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
i will give you the "more neutral".. it's yours, you win... now i'm gonna talk about how much more i like the amt tweeter vs domes...the combo of smooth and detailed hasn't been matched by any speakers with domes i have heard in the price range


You'll really be interested in this series of posts by crabrangoon:

**The Official Chane Music and Cinema owner's thread**
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...4&share_type=t


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Another speaker shootout-- Chane's A2.4 vs. ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
I agree with you about the audibility of Q values but that's moving the goalposts based on your earlier claim.



The graph you provided shows an obvious 6dB treble rise clear as day. The graph I show is from the Chane website so if you have a better graph that shows a flatter response, then I'd love to see it.



If you think a 4.1dB rise is much flatter than a 5dB rise (0.9dB difference), then you have better hearing than I do.


I was being kind. The Emotiva rise is very close to 6dB. And you're not seeing 6dB on the Chane graph. If you think you are, I can't help you.

And, even if you WERE....the Chane rise that actually IS present, which I continue to point out is roughly 50% less drastic, begins at a high Q dip nearly half an octave lower, very nearly replicating the same on-axis slope seen in many RAAL products. This further reduces the audibility, and mathematical significance, of those high Q dips.

I have not moved any goalposts. I'm merely drawing finer distinctions which still yet continue to bolster my original assertion.


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Another speaker shootout-- Chane's A2.4 vs. ??

With highlights:



Low Q examples in red. Both are very audible and form the mathematical backbone of those portions of the response curve. Note how I have not yet mentioned the high Q peak (green arrow). Because it's going to be far less audible.

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post #378 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
I have not moved any goalposts. I'm merely drawing finer distinctions which still yet continue to bolster my original assertion.
That's the very definition of moving the goalposts.

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And you're not seeing 6dB on the Chane graph. If you think you are, I can't help you.
Allow me to show you:

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post #379 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 06:54 PM
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Another speaker shootout-- Chane's A2.4 vs. ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
That's the very definition of moving the goalposts.







Allow me to show you:





You're really driven to push an agenda.

I'm going to help you read virtually all acoustical graphs; the trajectory is plotted roughly through the center of the line. Not from the upper and bottom edges, which you seem want to choose to reinforce your view.

If you can turn 4.1dB into 6dB then I need you to start building me amplifiers IMMEDIATELY. I'll pay handsomely.

EDIT: I'll add that the acoustical sums of the two different speakers from the midrange to 16khz are audibly, and acoustically, very different. Though I don't have the time or desire to do a statistical analysis/average of the same band for each speaker, there is an easily audible difference between the two curves. Counter to your original assertion that they were very similar.

Averaging out the minor high Q dips of the A2.4, the rise in output from 2.5khz to 16khz is about 2dB. With the same averaging performed on the T2, the slope would run roughly double that. And now we're fully in the weeds.


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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
You're really driven to push an agenda.

I'm going to help you read virtually all acoustical graphs; the trajectory is plotted roughly through the center of the line. Not from the upper and bottom edges, which you seem want to choose to reinforce your view.

If you can turn 4.1dB into 6dB then I need you to start building me amplifiers IMMEDIATELY. I'll pay handsomely.


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"pushing an agenda" seems like a overstatement... he seems pretty accurate with the given input.. you say you have seen the actual input that the graph is based on , i believe you.. yet WE can't make any judgement's based on said information , mainly because it hasn't been provided to us.. seems to me the graphs of the 2 speakers are far more similar than different compared to other budget speakers ( say .. klipsch or wharfedale)...
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post #381 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
"pushing an agenda" seems like a overstatement... he seems pretty accurate with the given input.. you say you have seen the actual input that the graph is based on , i believe you.. yet WE can't make any judgement's based on said information , mainly because it hasn't been provided to us.. seems to me the graphs of the 2 speakers are far more similar than different compared to other budget speakers ( say .. klipsch or wharfedale)...


Rounding "errors" of 2dB are significant. Context is important. I'll leave it at that.


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Rounding "errors" of 2dB are significant. Context is important. I'll leave it at that.


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that's certainly an opinion...i really have no dog in this hunt.. i'm happy with my current speakers...i still maintain that compared to other like priced speakers the emotiva's and chanes are of similar sound signature and quality rather than any drastic differences you might find vs a klipsch or wharfedale (or even b&w or kef)... it's just a hobby for me , i have no "rooting" interest....
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post #383 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 07:36 PM
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that's certainly an opinion...i really have no dog in this hunt.. i'm happy with my current speakers...i still maintain that compared to other like priced speakers the emotiva's and chanes are of similar sound signature and quality rather than any drastic differences you might find vs a klipsch or wharfedale (or even b&w or kef)... it's just a hobby for me , i have no "rooting" interest....



Quality isn't something I take issue with regarding either of them. But, subjective design choices were made in each that are fundamentally and audibly different.


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The graph speaks for itself and is there for all here to see. Let the people make up their minds. I'd love to see an unbiased someone chime in and agree with you about seeing a 4.1dB rise.

Whether center-to-center, bottom-to-bottom, or top-to-top of the plot line, it all reads a ~6dB difference and I'll even give you a +/- 0.5dB line thickness error for a "whopping" 5dB rise.

Regardless, a 5dB rise vs a 5dB rise does not make the Chanes magically any flatter. My only agenda is intellectual honesty and good-faith arguments. We already have more than enough "spin" in this world to not need any more in our hobby.

"Anti-aliasing", plotline thicknesses, and "rounding errors" don't really help add any credibility to your original statement about the Emotivas having a 5dB rise while the Chanes are instead "flat". Now, THAT sounds like an agenda.

All those qualifications you gave could apply equally to the 3rd-party Emotiva graph shown. Your above statement is very misleading and is why I felt the need to point out the actual similarities of two really good and well-respected speakers. If you can point me to any 3rd-party measurements of the Chanes, I'd be very interested in seeing those as well.
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post #385 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
The graph speaks for itself and is there for all here to see. Let the people make up their minds. I'd love to see an unbiased someone chime in and agree with you about seeing a 4.1dB rise.
You say let the people make up their own minds, then you attempt to curate their experience. Spare me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post



Whether center-to-center, bottom-to-bottom, or top-to-top of the plot line, it all reads a ~6dB difference and I'll even give you a +/- 0.5dB line thickness error for a "whopping" 5dB rise.



Regardless, a 5dB rise vs a 5dB rise does not make the Chanes magically any flatter. My only agenda is intellectual honesty and good-faith arguments. We already have more than enough "spin" in this world to not need any more in our hobby.

Without delving into scathing personal attacks, I've got nothing appropriate to say here. If you perceive correction as spin, I cannot help you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post


"Anti-aliasing", plotline thicknesses, and "rounding errors" don't really help add any credibility to your original statement about the Emotivas having a 5dB rise while the Chanes are instead "flat". Now, THAT sounds like an agenda.
My credibility doesn't stem or originate from you. Thank goodness.




Quote:
Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post


All those qualifications you gave could apply equally to the 3rd-party Emotiva graph shown. Your above statement is very misleading and is why I felt the need to point out the actual similarities of two really good and well-respected speakers. If you can point me to any 3rd-party measurements of the Chanes, I'd be very interested in seeing those as well.

No, they couldn't. Go spend some time in math class. My statement is res ipsa loquitor and so are the graphs. That we can agree on.

We're done here.




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"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said 'faster horses'." -H. Ford | Parasound HALO C2 pre/pro | modded Adcom MOSFET GFA-5500 | Acurus/Mondial A200x3 | Panny BDT-500 | Google Chromecast Audio/Apple TV 4K | Toshiba SD-9200 CD Transport | Vizio 55" LED/LCD | Darbee DVP-5000S | L+R: Chane MTM Prototype | Chane A2.4 center | surround: custom finished Chane A5rx-c | Member: NATIA, LEVA, & AES (full member).
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post #386 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Well ill chime in only because I have both sets of speakers

3- Chanes A2.4s

Emotiva T2s and C2

I had used the Chane's with stands....but I was interested in towers so I wouldnt have the stands look.
I almost went for the JBL 590 sale but took a chance on the Emotiva T2 towers.

I read this review on the T2s and C2
https://www.google.com/amp/s/homethe...er-review/amp/

I am not a graph guy....I simply go by my ears and take all the audio subpoints like imaging, soundstage, mids, highs etc...and TRY to pick the best

Chane's are very solid

But, I think the T2 & C2 bring me a whole new level of dynamics in my house and in my Florida room.

So graphs can proclaim to tell me on paper which is better...

But when im listening in 2.0 with T2s just kinda smile when the low end hits on songs that have more low end. It literally sounds that I have the HSU subs playing...didnt hear that level with Chane's
But to be fair to Chanes the Emotiva T2s do have 8 " drivers.

Hope that helps
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Set up #1 Speakers LR: Tekton Enzo XL ; Center: Tekton Pendragon Subs (2) 2019 JTR 118HTs
Set up #2 : QA3020i LR, Center: Emotiva C1 Subs (2) HSU VTF2 MK5,
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post #387 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
You say let the people make up their own minds, then you attempt to curate their experience. Spare me.

I shall spare nothing on a public forum you don't mod or admin.

No attempt to curate on my part was made. None. I made my observation and reasoning and offered others to give theirs. That's not curation, that's a single data point asking for a bigger pool with which to have an ostensibly honest discussion. If you don't like my observations, by all means ignore them.

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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
Without delving into scathing personal attacks, I've got nothing appropriate to say here. If you perceive correction as spin, I cannot help you.
Luckily for me, I don't need your help, so we're good there. You're spinning those plates just fine all on your own.

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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
My credibility doesn't stem or originate from you. Thank goodness.
Indeed it doesn't. I certainly agree. Your credibility is present right in your posts. As is mine. As is everyone's. This is the way it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
No, they couldn't. Go spend some time in math class. My statement is res ipsa loquitor and so are the graphs. That we can agree on.
Questioning my math? Where is my math wrong exactly? That's an ironic personal insult you've directed at me given your dubious stance here.

If you feel the need to teach me math, I'm willing to learn how you arrived at exactly 4.1dB and with apparent 0.1dB accuracy as your two significant digits imply.

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We're done here.
Finally. Whew.
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post #388 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Well ill chime in only because I have both sets of speakers

3- Chanes A2.4s

Emotiva T2s and C2

I had used the Chane's with stands....but I was interested in towers so I wouldnt have the stands look.
I almost went for the JBL 590 sale but took a chance on the Emotiva T2 towers.

I read this review on the T2s and C2
https://www.google.com/amp/s/homethe...er-review/amp/

I am not a graph guy....I simply go by my ears and take all the audio subpoints like imaging, soundstage, mids, highs etc...and TRY to pick the best

Chane's are very solid

But, I think the T2 & C2 bring me a whole new level of dynamics in my house and in my Florida room.

So graphs can proclaim to tell me on paper which is better...

But when im listening in 2.0 with T2s just kinda smile when the low end hits on songs that have more low end. It literally sounds that I have the HSU subs playing...didnt hear that level with Chane's
But to be fair to Chanes the Emotiva T2s do have 8 " drivers.

Hope that helps
do you consider them similar in sound signature? if not which one sounds more towards neutral to your ears in your set up...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #389 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 08:45 PM
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I would rather see graphs from rew vs opinion...that way have a baseline.


does anyone share compression tests anymore? or just what their speakers can do w/out subs/eq/dsp/etc....
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP

Last edited by torii; 09-03-2018 at 08:50 PM.
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post #390 of 420 Old 09-03-2018, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I would rather see graphs from rew vs opinion...that way have a baseline.


does anyone share compression tests anymore? or just what their speakers can do w/out subs/eq/dsp/etc....
i would tend to agree , but it seems we have multiple assertions based on the graphs provided in recent posts.. i tend to think the differences , while obviously audible to the majority of hobbyists , show a very similar sound signature.. other notable posters disagree , while some agree with me i think..iow , i think some nits were picked for effect...it's a debatable opinion on my part...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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