Emotiva: 3 Towers as LCR vs 2 Towers and the C2? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 104 Old 08-29-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sliderhouserules View Post
I'm interested to see how you mount your B1s. I'm assuming they're your rear speakers? Going to be wall-mounted? I'm still debating how to mount my B1s to the wall behind the couch. Would love to see pics once you get it all set up.
This is how I mounted my rears where I have the couch up against the wall due to room constraints.

Brackets and ceramic tile from Home Depot.

Those speakers are actually now at my daughters as they were too nice to use as rears; the new rears are larger bookshelves but now toed in to point to the center of the room which worked better.

Zero localization issues, great surround effect with a sense of height.
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post #62 of 104 Old 08-29-2018, 05:38 PM
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Think of speakers like a flashlight which beams light in a forward direction, and very little light disperses off-axis of the flashlight. When you shine a flashlight at a wall, you generally get a tight spot of light with a small, dimmer circle of light around it. The same thing happens with the polar response of a speaker. The higher you go in frequency, the more the sound projects in a narrower and narrower beam. Eventually you reach a point where the beam of sound is very narrow, and the off-axis dispersion dramatically falls off. Like this:





Frequency is along the bottom scale from 50 Hz to 20 kHz
Angle is along the left hand scale from -200 degrees to 0 to +200 degrees
The scale on the right depicts sound intensity with 0, (unity), being orange, -3 being green, light blue being -6 and dark blue being -8.


At the left side of the graph, there is broad dispersion out to 200 degrees which goes out to 80 Hz, (low bass.) (This is where the statement "Bass is Omnidirectional" comes from. It's also why 80 Hz is the recommended crossover point for most speakers... because above 80 Hz, the sound becomes directional enough that the ear/brain can hear where it's coming from.) From 80 to about 500 Hz, the dispersion tapers and by 2 kHz, the sound has turned into a tight beam that continues to narrow more and more as the sound goes up in frequency.



Another way to look at it is to draw an imaginary line at 90 degrees from left to right until it intersects the dark blue color. By my eye, that is about 230 Hz. Anything above 230 Hz will be at least 8 dB lower than the original sound, when measured 90 degrees off axis.



Now, apply this to the above surround speaker positioning. Imagine placing a flashlight on top of the speaker, facing the way the speaker is facing. The "beam" of sound will be projected to the front wall, and the only direct sound that will disperse to the 90 degree off-axis listening position will be the low and mid-bass, below about 230 Hz. All the rest will shoot to the front wall, where it will be reflected back to the listening position. That reflected sound will be "heard" as originating from the front soundstage. IOW, the "surround sound" won't be "surrounding" you at all. It will be mixed into the front soundstage and draw the surround image to the front of the room, where it will do nothing but muddy up the front soundstage.



That may have been kind of OK back in the Dolby ProLogic days when the only thing in the surround channels was ambiance extracted from the front channels. However, nobody even puts Dolby ProLogic in modern receivers anymore. Its all digital, discreet surrounds, like Dolby Digital, TrueHD and Atmos. Discreet, directional sounds can be, and are increasingly mixed into the surrounds. With the speakers positioned as in the above picture, those discreet sounds would be virtually lost, or they would be heard from the wrong direction, (the front of the room.)



Fortunately, the photographer of that picture replaced those speakers and positioned them somewhat better, so the dispersion of the speaker was less off-axis of the listening position. That would allow the listener to hear direct sounds higher up in the frequency band. Still, the *best* placement would have been to use speaker mounts which allow the speakers to be turned 90 degrees and aimed down at the listening position. That would put the listener in the direct, on axis dispersion of the speakers and allow the best opportunity to hear the direct, discreet sounds at the levels they were recorded.



If you look at all the recent speaker placement diagrams from Dolby, THX, DTS, etc., they all show monopole surround speakers aimed directly at the listener's ears. Dolby has also gotten away from the 3" above ear level recommendation. Now they recommend placement just high enough to provide a direct path to all the listeners ears. That is the "best practice" for surround speaker placement.


Craig

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"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #63 of 104 Old 08-29-2018, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sliderhouserules View Post
I'm interested to see how you mount your B1s. I'm assuming they're your rear speakers? Going to be wall-mounted? I'm still debating how to mount my B1s to the wall behind the couch. Would love to see pics once you get it all set up.
Here are mine...
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post #64 of 104 Old 08-29-2018, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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And so it begins....
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post #65 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 03:45 AM
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And so it begins....
The UPS driver was NOT happy with you yesterday.
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post #66 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 05:06 AM
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You gotta think Emotiva adds to their speaker line up next couple years....Especially bookshelfs and possibly another tower better/more costly than T2s

I noticed they tend to spend more on drivers, tweeters, less on looks/casing/cabinet.....I dont mind that

Rather have sound than looks....Some looks may have to be added. But what I get out of the T2s are pretty darn good. Very happy

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post #67 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 09:59 AM
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OP, did you end up getting the factory renewed units?

I'm curious to know the condition of the speakers! (what they define as minor blemishes, etc)
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post #68 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
If you look at all the recent speaker placement diagrams from Dolby, THX, DTS, etc., they all show monopole surround speakers aimed directly at the listener's ears. Dolby has also gotten away from the 3" above ear level recommendation. Now they recommend placement just high enough to provide a direct path to all the listeners ears. That is the "best practice" for surround speaker placement.


Craig
That is all well and good but I'm perfectly happy with the location and the surround effect with my less than ideal placement as the ideal placement you outlined is impossible in my particular situation.

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post #69 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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OP, did you end up getting the factory renewed units?

I'm curious to know the condition of the speakers! (what they define as minor blemishes, etc)
I've now had a chance to open and examine all speakers...YMMV, but I don't see how these are "factory renewed."

I can't find a single blemish and I looked pretty close. Packaging was also not damaged.
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post #70 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
I've now had a chance to open and examine all speakers...YMMV, but I don't see how these are "factory renewed."

I can't find a single blemish and I looked pretty close. Packaging was also not damaged.
It sounds like the "chip and dent" Klipsch RP-280f I got for almost 50% off that were perfect.
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post #71 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
I've now had a chance to open and examine all speakers...YMMV, but I don't see how these are "factory renewed."

I can't find a single blemish and I looked pretty close. Packaging was also not damaged.
With Emotiva's 30 day return policy, they really can't sell returns as "new, in the box". They're essentially B Stock, items that have been returned. I had the same experience with the C2 I bought - I couldn't find a single thing wrong with hit.

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post #72 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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WAF alert...bigger than I anticipated

Not sure why these pixs are sideways.
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post #73 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 03:00 PM
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WAF alert...bigger than I anticipated

Not sure why these pixs are sideways.
Boxes are bigger than actual cabinets. Don't let her look until everything is in place, set up, and you're playing her favorite piece of music.
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post #74 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
WAF alert...bigger than I anticipated

Not sure why these pixs are sideways.
That will be your view of them after the wife gets home!
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post #75 of 104 Old 08-30-2018, 03:19 PM
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WAF alert...bigger than I anticipated

Not sure why these pixs are sideways.
I had same prob

Take it with phone sideways (horizontal) it should work ok then......Nice VTFs

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post #76 of 104 Old 09-03-2018, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Should have a report in a few days detailing how these puppies sound...still setting everything up.
Had to wait on WAF-mandated furnishings.
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post #77 of 104 Old 09-15-2018, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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This is taking a bit longer than I thought...trying to get speakers mounted and AVR wired up.

I did knock over one of my T1's. The result was a dented corner. I hope these towers are sturdy and there was no internal damage.
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post #78 of 104 Old 09-21-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
This is taking a bit longer than I thought...trying to get speakers mounted and AVR wired up.

I did knock over one of my T1's. The result was a dented corner. I hope these towers are sturdy and there was no internal damage.
Bummer on the dent.

Update?

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post #79 of 104 Old 09-21-2018, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally found some time to get every speaker mounted properly.

It takes time to get 9 speakers measured and angled the way you want. The Atmos ones near the ceiling are a bear.

A few more days to finish wiring.

Another update soon
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post #80 of 104 Old 09-21-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
Finally found some time to get every speaker mounted properly.

It takes time to get 9 speakers measured and angled the way you want. The Atmos ones near the ceiling are a bear.

A few more days to finish wiring.

Another update soon
you should post some photos of the whole setup
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post #81 of 104 Old 09-22-2018, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Will post photos...

Quick question -- on the T1's, they have jumper connectors between the two sets of terminals.

I am not bi-wiring, so is it better to connect to the (upper) high or (lower) low frequency terminals? Or does it make a difference?
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post #82 of 104 Old 09-22-2018, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
Will post photos...

Quick question -- on the T1's, they have jumper connectors between the two sets of terminals.

I am not bi-wiring, so is it better to connect to the (upper) high or (lower) low frequency terminals? Or does it make a difference?
As long as the jumpers are securely in place it makes no difference.
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post #83 of 104 Old 09-22-2018, 05:46 PM
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Will post photos...

Quick question -- on the T1's, they have jumper connectors between the two sets of terminals.

I am not bi-wiring, so is it better to connect to the (upper) high or (lower) low frequency terminals? Or does it make a difference?
Yes dont matter
However, I prefer lower because to have "wire" handing a few inches higher, depending where you have speakers, can cause problems outside of audio aka tripping
I learned hard way
Nothing got damaged but that little bit of height brings about a little bit more of wire "up in the air"
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post #84 of 104 Old 09-24-2018, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I used lower terminals.

I have all the speakers wired.

WAF extended the effort due to commandment to hide all wires.

However, as photo indicates, I still have work to do.
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post #85 of 104 Old 09-29-2018, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally got everything hooked up...

These speakers are not bright in any way. They are very good. Well worth the money.

But I'm even more impressed with the Hsu VFT3-Mk5's -- OMG, I believe I caused structural damage to the house playing the Hsu supplied CD.

I ran Audyssey and tweaked the Crossovers higher a bit. They had the T1's at 40.
I also have my three T1's across the front 8' 6" apart, so I did toe the L and R in 10 degrees. That really helped the front soundstage.

Still playing around with everything so more to come...

but anyone on the fence, I would jump in with both feet.
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post #86 of 104 Old 09-29-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
Finally got everything hooked up...

These speakers are not bright in any way. They are very good. Well worth the money.

But I'm even more impressed with the Hsu VFT3-Mk5's -- OMG, I believe I caused structural damage to the house playing the Hsu supplied CD.

I ran Audyssey and tweaked the Crossovers higher a bit. They had the T1's at 40.
I also have my three T1's across the front 8' 6" apart, so I did toe the L and R in 10 degrees. That really helped the front soundstage.

Still playing around with everything so more to come...

but anyone on the fence, I would jump in with both feet.
glad to hear that you like your new speakers, looking forward to a more detailed review,, to me the amount of detail they deliver being neutral speakers is pretty impressive..

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #87 of 104 Old 09-29-2018, 05:53 PM
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Finally got everything hooked up...

These speakers are not bright in any way. They are very good. Well worth the money.

But I'm even more impressed with the Hsu VFT3-Mk5's -- OMG, I believe I caused structural damage to the house playing the Hsu supplied CD.

I ran Audyssey and tweaked the Crossovers higher a bit. They had the T1's at 40.
I also have my three T1's across the front 8' 6" apart, so I did toe the L and R in 10 degrees. That really helped the front soundstage.

Still playing around with everything so more to come...

but anyone on the fence, I would jump in with both feet.
What did you set crossover at?
Audyssey set mine at 40
Its inaccurate
Set it at 80
You can get away from 60-70 also but I think 80 best
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post #88 of 104 Old 09-29-2018, 07:33 PM
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But I'm even more impressed with the Hsu VFT3-Mk5's -- OMG, I believe I caused structural damage to the house playing the Hsu supplied CD.
Subs are the muscle and set the tone for the system. They are also the most room and placement dependent. If you haven't already, check out the sub setup sticky in the sub and bass forum--lots of good tips there.

Very nice and congrats on the new system. Have fun dialing it in.

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post #89 of 104 Old 09-30-2018, 11:33 AM
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Finally got everything hooked up...

These speakers are not bright in any way. They are very good. Well worth the money.

But I'm even more impressed with the Hsu VFT3-Mk5's -- OMG, I believe I caused structural damage to the house playing the Hsu supplied CD.

I ran Audyssey and tweaked the Crossovers higher a bit. They had the T1's at 40.
I also have my three T1's across the front 8' 6" apart, so I did toe the L and R in 10 degrees. That really helped the front soundstage.

Still playing around with everything so more to come...

but anyone on the fence, I would jump in with both feet.
Very nice; congratulations.

Sound & Vision suggested in their review the T1s benefit from a bit of a tilt backwards, (not sure if they come with adjustable spike feet), as they are on the short side for towers and depending on the height of your couch might need minor adjustment to aim the tweeters at your ears seated on the couch.

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post #90 of 104 Old 09-30-2018, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
What did you set crossover at?
Audyssey set mine at 40
Its inaccurate
Set it at 80
You can get away from 60-70 also but I think 80 best
Yes I did the T1's and B1's at 80.
Audyssey had the E1's at 100 and 120. I left those alone except make all 4 of them 120.
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