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post #1 of 44 Old 09-25-2018, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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System and or speaker Upgrade

Hello all!

I've owned a Yamaha RX-473 AVR with Energy RC Micro System for a while and want to upgrade. Lately I've been using it as a 3.1 in my small/medium apt and plan to be in similar spaces in the near future.

I went to a local audio store and was recommended upgrading my speakers first and was shown Bowers and Wilkins 686 S2 (the old ones). I decided if I was going to get B&W I'd just get the new model (607) even though I haven't heard them yet. I like the sound of the B&W 686 S2 (and would definitely use a sub) but it isn't a stretch to impress me after listening to my smaller Energy Micro System.

I'd use my new fronts plus my Energy sub, then upgrade my sub (I'm thinking SVS SB-1000, eventually dual). The B&W 607 Bookshelves are $600 whereas SVS Ultra Bookshelves are $1000.. Are they worth $400 more?

Doing more research I'm thinking of getting the SVS Ultra Bookshelves instead, with an end goal of having a 2.1 or 2.2 system that would upgrade to a hobbyist sort of audiophile system about 60/40 movies/music.

After I acquire my speakers, then I'm look at upgrading to a better integrated amplifier, pre-amp and amp, or better AVR... This I'm not quite sure about yet.

Lastly, will my RX-473 run the B&W 607 or SVS Ultra Bookshelves close to their full potential?

My budget will be about $600 to $1000 for both the fronts, $500 to $700 for the sub (maybe x2 eventually), then $900-$1300 for the eventual better (?) power system...
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post #2 of 44 Old 09-25-2018, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Pool View Post
Hello all!


I'd use my new fronts plus my Energy sub, then upgrade my sub (I'm thinking SVS SB-1000, eventually dual). The B&W 607 Bookshelves are $600 whereas SVS Ultra Bookshelves are $1000.. Are they worth $400 more?


Lastly, will my RX-473 run the B&W 607 or SVS Ultra Bookshelves close to their full potential?
Easy to find out. Buy a set of both and return the one you like least. The B&Ws are local so should be an easy return and SVS of course has the return shipping included in the price. If the local audio store does not do returns use BB.

Your AVR will drive the speakers just fine unless you like to listen very loudly.

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post #3 of 44 Old 09-25-2018, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Matthew Pool View Post
Hello all!

I've owned a Yamaha RX-473 AVR with Energy RC Micro System for a while and want to upgrade. Lately I've been using it as a 3.1 in my small/medium apt and plan to be in similar spaces in the near future.

I went to a local audio store and was recommended upgrading my speakers first and was shown Bowers and Wilkins 686 S2 (the old ones). I decided if I was going to get B&W I'd just get the new model (607) even though I haven't heard them yet. I like the sound of the B&W 686 S2 (and would definitely use a sub) but it isn't a stretch to impress me after listening to my smaller Energy Micro System.

I'd use my new fronts plus my Energy sub, then upgrade my sub (I'm thinking SVS SB-1000, eventually dual). The B&W 607 Bookshelves are $600 whereas SVS Ultra Bookshelves are $1000.. Are they worth $400 more?

Doing more research I'm thinking of getting the SVS Ultra Bookshelves instead, with an end goal of having a 2.1 or 2.2 system that would upgrade to a hobbyist sort of audiophile system about 60/40 movies/music.

After I acquire my speakers, then I'm look at upgrading to a better integrated amplifier, pre-amp and amp, or better AVR... This I'm not quite sure about yet.

Lastly, will my RX-473 run the B&W 607 or SVS Ultra Bookshelves close to their full potential?

My budget will be about $600 to $1000 for both the fronts, $500 to $700 for the sub (maybe x2 eventually), then $900-$1300 for the eventual better (?) power system...
First off I would like to state that SVS Ultra Bookshelves will NOT disappoint. Haven't heard a bad review yet. I would recommend listening to the B&W's but ultimately not buying them. I'm sure most would agree that ID speaker makers will give you much better value at a budget of $600-$1000. I would recommend checking out Chane and Ascend. Other manufacturers like SVS, KEF, Monitor Audio, Martin Logan also make good speakers but are in the same boat as B&W. If you have your heart set on B&W or SVS, go for it, just don't limit yourself is all I'm saying. A huge point to be made is that you can get $1000 dollar performance for a simple $600. Or $2000 for $1000, you just have to find that right brand. It also just comes down to what sounds best to you. Go listen to them all. SVS has free returns along with Best Buy for those B&W's.

For your AVR, I would recommend picking up a used or refurbished one, but only if you are dissatisfied with your current one. AVR should always be the last thing to upgrade. Instead of your suggestion of $900-$1300 for the AVR upgrade, I would allocate at least half of that back into your speakers. A $1300 upgrade in speakers will give you MUCH better performance improvement vs $1300 in electronics.

You mentioned subwoofers. HSU's VTF-3 MK5 is a 15" woofer for $799. Top pick for budget systems. SVS has their PB-2000 for $800, but is only a 12" woofer. Dual SVS's or HSU's will be enough to let your neighbors in on the fun too
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post #4 of 44 Old 09-26-2018, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Pool View Post
Hello all!

I've owned a Yamaha RX-473 AVR with Energy RC Micro System for a while and want to upgrade. Lately I've been using it as a 3.1 in my small/medium apt and plan to be in similar spaces in the near future.

I went to a local audio store and was recommended upgrading my speakers first and was shown Bowers and Wilkins 686 S2 (the old ones). I decided if I was going to get B&W I'd just get the new model (607) even though I haven't heard them yet. I like the sound of the B&W 686 S2 (and would definitely use a sub) but it isn't a stretch to impress me after listening to my smaller Energy Micro System.

I'd use my new fronts plus my Energy sub, then upgrade my sub (I'm thinking SVS SB-1000, eventually dual). The B&W 607 Bookshelves are $600 whereas SVS Ultra Bookshelves are $1000.. Are they worth $400 more?

Doing more research I'm thinking of getting the SVS Ultra Bookshelves instead, with an end goal of having a 2.1 or 2.2 system that would upgrade to a hobbyist sort of audiophile system about 60/40 movies/music.

After I acquire my speakers, then I'm look at upgrading to a better integrated amplifier, pre-amp and amp, or better AVR... This I'm not quite sure about yet.

Lastly, will my RX-473 run the B&W 607 or SVS Ultra Bookshelves close to their full potential?

My budget will be about $600 to $1000 for both the fronts, $500 to $700 for the sub (maybe x2 eventually), then $900-$1300 for the eventual better (?) power system...
B&W have a warmer sound signature that's better suited for music. SVS speakers are a little on the bright side making them more desirable to HT enthusiasts.


You should go down to Best buy and listen to as many speakers as possible. Report back with what you liked and we can steer you in the right direction. Not that there's anything wrong with B&W but, as @Russdawg1 pointed out, there are several internet direct companies that offer better value/performance options than the big box brands.


Your receiver will easily drive most speakers without any problems, especially if you have a sub(s). I'd use that $900-1200 AVR budget to get better speakers and subs instead. Upgrade the AVR later.


If you really want to upgrade the AVR to have more power, this Pioneer with class D amp would be a good choice.
https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...eceiver/1.html
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post #5 of 44 Old 09-26-2018, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Pool View Post
Hello all!

I've owned a Yamaha RX-473 AVR with Energy RC Micro System for a while and want to upgrade. Lately I've been using it as a 3.1 in my small/medium apt and plan to be in similar spaces in the near future.

I went to a local audio store and was recommended upgrading my speakers first and was shown Bowers and Wilkins 686 S2 (the old ones). I decided if I was going to get B&W I'd just get the new model (607) even though I haven't heard them yet. I like the sound of the B&W 686 S2 (and would definitely use a sub) but it isn't a stretch to impress me after listening to my smaller Energy Micro System.

I'd use my new fronts plus my Energy sub, then upgrade my sub (I'm thinking SVS SB-1000, eventually dual). The B&W 607 Bookshelves are $600 whereas SVS Ultra Bookshelves are $1000.. Are they worth $400 more?

Doing more research I'm thinking of getting the SVS Ultra Bookshelves instead, with an end goal of having a 2.1 or 2.2 system that would upgrade to a hobbyist sort of audiophile system about 60/40 movies/music.

After I acquire my speakers, then I'm look at upgrading to a better integrated amplifier, pre-amp and amp, or better AVR... This I'm not quite sure about yet.

Lastly, will my RX-473 run the B&W 607 or SVS Ultra Bookshelves close to their full potential?

My budget will be about $600 to $1000 for both the fronts, $500 to $700 for the sub (maybe x2 eventually), then $900-$1300 for the eventual better (?) power system...
The SVS Ultras with free return shipping would certainly be worth a try.

They measure very well and despite dipping into the 4 ohm range around 200hz with 87db sensitivity most AVRs should drive them nicely.

As mentioned, buy both the SVS and B&W and return the loser for free.

Every B&W speaker I've owned I've enjoyed and best of all they easily last 30 years.

https://www.audioholics.com/bookshel...s-measurements


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post #6 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Easy to find out. Buy a set of both and return the one you like least. The B&Ws are local so should be an easy return and SVS of course has the return shipping included in the price. If the local audio store does not do returns use BB.

Your AVR will drive the speakers just fine unless you like to listen very loudly.
After more research I'm leaning towards trying SVS or Ascend 2's, Lunas, or 340 SE's (plus sub's for one of those combos).
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post #7 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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First off I would like to state that SVS Ultra Bookshelves will NOT disappoint. Haven't heard a bad review yet. I would recommend listening to the B&W's but ultimately not buying them. I'm sure most would agree that ID speaker makers will give you much better value at a budget of $600-$1000. I would recommend checking out Chane and Ascend. Other manufacturers like SVS, KEF, Monitor Audio, Martin Logan also make good speakers but are in the same boat as B&W. If you have your heart set on B&W or SVS, go for it, just don't limit yourself is all I'm saying. A huge point to be made is that you can get $1000 dollar performance for a simple $600. Or $2000 for $1000, you just have to find that right brand. It also just comes down to what sounds best to you. Go listen to them all. SVS has free returns along with Best Buy for those B&W's.

For your AVR, I would recommend picking up a used or refurbished one, but only if you are dissatisfied with your current one. AVR should always be the last thing to upgrade. Instead of your suggestion of $900-$1300 for the AVR upgrade, I would allocate at least half of that back into your speakers. A $1300 upgrade in speakers will give you MUCH better performance improvement vs $1300 in electronics.

You mentioned subwoofers. HSU's VTF-3 MK5 is a 15" woofer for $799. Top pick for budget systems. SVS has their PB-2000 for $800, but is only a 12" woofer. Dual SVS's or HSU's will be enough to let your neighbors in on the fun too
Thanks. Ascend looks interesting. But which combo? Ascend 2's with 2 subs? Luna's with 2 subs? CMT-340 L/R with 2 subs? Maybe add a center to any of those combos eventually. the CMT combo is alot cheaper than either Ascend 2's or or Lunas.. Would the CMT combo be as good as thw 2's or Lunas? SVS is still on my shortlist too.
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post #8 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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B&W have a warmer sound signature that's better suited for music. SVS speakers are a little on the bright side making them more desirable to HT enthusiasts.


You should go down to Best buy and listen to as many speakers as possible. Report back with what you liked and we can steer you in the right direction. Not that there's anything wrong with B&W but, as @Russdawg1 pointed out, there are several internet direct companies that offer better value/performance options than the big box brands.


Your receiver will easily drive most speakers without any problems, especially if you have a sub(s). I'd use that $900-1200 AVR budget to get better speakers and subs instead. Upgrade the AVR later.


If you really want to upgrade the AVR to have more power, this Pioneer with class D amp would be a good choice.
https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...eceiver/1.html
Thanks. I haven't been to Bbuy yet.. I'd like to try Ascends 2's, Lunas, or CMT SE's., and or SVS Ultra Bookshelves. All combos with sub.. I'll take the advice and use some AVR budget for the speakers. Except the Ascend CMT combo would actually be cheaper than either the Ascend 2, Luna, or SVS Ultra's.. So it seems I wouldn't have to increase my speaker budget for the CMT combo..
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post #9 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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The SVS Ultras with free return shipping would certainly be worth a try.

They measure very well and despite dipping into the 4 ohm range around 200hz with 87db sensitivity most AVRs should drive them nicely.

Thanks. Leaning towards trying SVS and Ascend...
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post #10 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 07:43 AM
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System and or speaker Upgrade

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Originally Posted by Matthew Pool View Post
Thanks. Ascend looks interesting. But which combo? Ascend 2's with 2 subs? Luna's with 2 subs? CMT-340 L/R with 2 subs? Maybe add a center to any of those combos eventually. the CMT combo is alot cheaper than either Ascend 2's or or Lunas.. Would the CMT combo be as good as thw 2's or Lunas? SVS is still on my shortlist too.


All of those sound like good combos, you can’t go wrong with either. 2’s and Luna’s would be better suited for music they are very very detailed. CMTs are more dynamic so you can play them louder and are better suited for home theater. If you can dish out the money for the Sierra 2s or the Luna’s, I would put the SVS ultra bookshelves on the table too.

Then it just comes down to your subwoofer choice. You can’t go wrong with HSU, SVS, Rythmik or JTR if you have the cash

Edit: Order an SVS subwoofer with the Ultras. See how you like them. Free in home trials with no risk. If it feels like all you need, keep them or even add a second subwoofer. If not send them back and try something else
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post #11 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 09:04 AM
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Thanks. Leaning towards trying SVS and Ascend...
Even Ascend would tell you that unless you have a small room the Lunas may not be appropriate, (or necessary), for Home Theater.

In fact several Ascend owners with RAAL tweeters have opined that while for music the RAAL is fantastic for movies/tv the dome tweeter models work just as well.

Looking forward to your impressions.
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post #12 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Even Ascend would tell you that unless you have a small room the Lunas may not be appropriate, (or necessary), for Home Theater.

In fact several Ascend owners with RAAL tweeters have opined that while for music the RAAL is fantastic for movies/tv the dome tweeter models work just as well.

Looking forward to your impressions.
Hmm. Since I'd lean towards movies I could get the Ascend 1's (for $848) with a set of matching subs..

How would you compare:

L/R Ascend 1's plus 2 Rythmik LV12R

To:

L/R SVS Ultra Bookshelves plus 2 PB-1000 subs.

Both combos about $2000 each. I get the feeling I'd have better intro audiophile quality for a couple hundred less with the Ascend combo...

Then possibly a center to match either combo.. Then electronics to power optimally if need be.
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post #13 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 09:21 AM
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Hmm. Since I'd lean towards movies I could get the Ascend 1's (for $848) with a set of matching subs..

How would you compare:

L/R Ascend 1's plus 2 Rythmik LV12R

To:

L/R SVS Ultra Bookshelves plus 2 PB-1000 subs.

Both combos about $2000 each. I get the feeling I'd have better intro audiophile quality for a couple hundred less with the Ascend combo...

Then possibly a center to match either combo.. Then electronics to power optimally if need be.
I have no idea though, without question, I'd go Rhythmik for the subs as I've had decades of great sound using servo subs.

Both the Ultras and Ascends are very well regarded with the more expensive Ultras having the "theoretical" advantage of a 3 way center though I've never owned a 3 way center and never had the desire to upgrade from my current 2 way center with raised tweeter.
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post #14 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Matthew Pool View Post
Hmm. Since I'd lean towards movies I could get the Ascend 1's (for $848) with a set of matching subs..

How would you compare:

L/R Ascend 1's plus 2 Rythmik LV12R

To:

L/R SVS Ultra Bookshelves plus 2 PB-1000 subs.

Both combos about $2000 each. I get the feeling I'd have better intro audiophile quality for a couple hundred less with the Ascend combo...

Then possibly a center to match either combo.. Then electronics to power optimally if need be.
The sub(s) do NOT need to match the speakers. The experts in the subwoofer section have stated on numerous occasions that Rhythmik and HSU offer better value/performance. Rhythmik for music, HSU for HT. SVS does however have an unconditional 5 year warranty, trade up programme and full bill of rights.
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post #15 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 10:27 AM
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The sub(s) do NOT need to match the speakers. The experts in the subwoofer section have stated on numerous occasions that Rhythmik and HSU offer better value/performance. Rhythmik for music, HSU for HT. SVS does however have an unconditional 5 year warranty, trade up programme and full bill of rights.
I will add that Rythmik works wonderful for HT as well. I have a LVX12 in my living room and its leap and bounds better than the 2 subs I had before, a Dayton SUB1200 and some Polk 12" sub I had for 6 or 7 years. With subs you need to know a couple of things, first do you care about sub 20hz bass, some do some don't, and secondly how much of a bass head are you. Do you just want some boom or do you want to shake the walls. But either way it is hard to go wrong with something from HSU, SVS, Rythmik or the new Monoprice THX line.
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post #16 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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@pase22 @Russdawg1 @gajCA

Went to BBuy. Listened to B&W 606 and 607 (new model bookshelve's), Martin Logan MO15 (smaller bookshelves). I liked the Martin Logan much better so [email protected] is out.

Then I went to a local store and listened to the Same Martin Logans compared to KEF R300 and R3 bookshelves. The KEF's blew away the Martin Logans.

I listened to hi-fi music thorough the brand new KEF R300 bookshelves, and older R3. They were both awesome, I couldn't really tell the difference without spending more time with them. Then a movie (older KEF R3 only) and they were really, really sweet. Powered by a Marantz SR8013 in stereo only.

I can get the R3's from them for $1300, the new R300 for $2000. I'm thinking of getting the R3's.

2.1, 2.2. or 3.2 max is where I want to be. It almost seems like I'd be fine with the KEF's set up 2.1 for movies and music... If I get the KEF R3 I may need to get the matching center now because its the old series. They have reference KEF Center 2c for $700. So $2000 for the R3 fronts and center combined.

Has anyone compared the KEF R3's (or R300) to Ascend's 1 or 2? Or SVS Ultra?

I feel like with the Ascend reputation I should try them out but could they really be better than the KEF R3 or R300?

Do they sound the same?

Also, I don't think 2 subs would be warranted with the KEF's because they had really good base in HT even without the sub.


Edit: Crutchfield has the R300 on sale now for $1,300. Regularly $1,800.

Last edited by Matthew Pool; 09-27-2018 at 05:59 PM.
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post #17 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 04:18 PM
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@pase22 @Russdawg1 @gajCA



Went to BBuy. Listened to B&W 606 and 607 (new model bookshelve's), Martin Logan MO15 (smaller bookshelves). I liked the Martin Logan much better so [email protected] is out.



Then I went to a local store and listened to the Same Martin Logans compared to KEF R300 and R3 bookshelves. The KEF's blew away the Martin Logans.



I listened to hi-fi music thorough the brand new KEF R300 bookshelves, and older R3. They were both awesome, I couldn't really tell the difference without spending more time with them. Then a movie (older KEF R3 only) and they were really, really sweet. Powered by a Marantz SR8013 in stereo only.



I can get the R3's from them for $1300, the new R300 for $2000. I'm thinking of getting the R3's.



Has anyone compared the KEF R3's (or R300) to Ascend's 1 or 2? Or SVS Ultra?



I feel like with the Ascend reputation I should try them out but could they really be better than the KEF R3 or R300?



Do they sound the same?



Also, I don't think 2 subs would be warranted with the KEF's because they had really good base in HT even without the sub.


That’s awesome that you were able to listen to all of those different speakers. I personally love those folded motion tweeters on Martin Logan’s. A thing to note when traveling to different stores to demo is that they may have different EQ settings, I would hope not but it has been seen before. That is another reason why sampling in home is always better than in store. Too many variables to deal with. I always ask to listen in direct or pure direct whenever I demo some speakers.

I’m not too experienced with the difference between the Kef R3s and R300s, however I am not surprised that you preferred them over the Martin Logan’s.
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post #18 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 05:39 PM
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Has anyone compared the KEF R3's (or R300) to Ascend's 1 or 2? Or SVS Ultra?
Between those 3, I'd take the Ascend Sierra 2 by a long shot.

Of course, for Sierra 2 money you could get a pair of these:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/BMR%20Philharmonitor.html

Because those can easily go without a sub during music, you'd then be free to go with an HT oriented sub like the Hsu VTF-3 or 15H, which you'd use for movies exclusively.
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post #19 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:01 PM
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Thanks. Ascend looks interesting. But which combo? Ascend 2's with 2 subs? Luna's with 2 subs? CMT-340 L/R with 2 subs? Maybe add a center to any of those combos eventually. the CMT combo is alot cheaper than either Ascend 2's or or Lunas.. Would the CMT combo be as good as thw 2's or Lunas? SVS is still on my shortlist too.
The Ascend 340s are on my short list. I was initially thinking the Sierra 1, but somebody pointed out in my own thread that if the majority of my listening was Movies and TV as opposed to music, the Sierras might be a bit of a waste. Further research shows some other forum members feel the same way. What % of TV vs Movies vs Music do you think you will be listening to? That might steer you in the right direction
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post #20 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:04 PM
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The Ascend 340s are on my short list. I was initially thinking the Sierra 1, but somebody pointed out in my own thread that if the majority of my listening was Movies and TV as opposed to music, the Sierras might be a bit of a waste. Further research shows some other forum members feel the same way. What % of TV vs Movies vs Music do you think you will be listening to? That might steer you in the right direction
i have a feeling you will be happily surprised with the 340's for music.. just a guess
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post #21 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Between those 3, I'd take the Ascend Sierra 2 by a long shot.

Of course, for Sierra 2 money you could get a pair of these:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/BMR%20Philharmonitor.html

Because those can easily go without a sub during music, you'd then be free to go with an HT oriented sub like the Hsu VTF-3 or 15H, which you'd use for movies exclusively.
Wow. Seirra 2 by long shot. And another option in the Philharmonitor...

Can you describe why the Seirra 2's by a long shot?

Compared to the R3 or R300, or Philharmonitor?

Have you heard all 3? Thx
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post #22 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:07 PM
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Wow. Seirra 2 by long shot. And another option in the Philharmonitor...

Can you describe why the Seirra 2's by a long shot?

Compared to the R3 or R300, or Philharmonitor?

Have you heard all 3? Thx
i usually agree with zorba's take , but this time i think he might be selling the r300's short , they are a pretty awesome 3 way from what i have read...
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post #23 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:14 PM
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Wow. Seirra 2 by long shot. And another option in the Philharmonitor...

Can you describe why the Seirra 2's by a long shot?

Compared to the R3 or R300, or Philharmonitor?

Have you heard all 3? Thx
I've heard the Sierra 2 and the R300. The RAAL tweeter in the Sierra 2 is at a whole other level. The R300 is not a BAD speaker by any means, I just didn't find its performance came anywhere close to justifying its pricetag.

The R3 I admit I have not heard, I just find its $2K/pr price a bit silly given the aluminum dome...can't say I've ever been crazy about metal domes, they impress at first but for prolonged listening they become a bit irritating---just my ears, of course. Some folks are fine with them.

The Phils I have not heard, however I know of one or two former S2 owners who found them to surpass the S2, which to me is not surprising given the larger cabinet and 3 way design while employing the same RAAL tweeter...and of course the designer of that speaker I have never ever heard of anyone having anything but effusive praise for, both his products and service.

So, I am basing my comments on a mixture of anecdotal evidence and personal experience. No empirical/objective/universal claims implied.
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post #24 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:25 PM
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Also, I don't think 2 subs would be warranted with the KEF's because they had really good base in HT even without the sub.
The purpose of two subs is to defeat nulls and room modes. Whatever speaker you get, you should cross over and most likely crossover at 80Hz (give or take depending in room and speakers). There is significant advantages to two subs (although I get a pretty good response at my MLP out of my single Rythmik FV15HP in my living room).
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post #25 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:33 PM
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I've heard the Sierra 2 and the R300. The RAAL tweeter in the Sierra 2 is at a whole other level. The R300 is not a BAD speaker by any means, I just didn't find its performance came anywhere close to justifying its pricetag.

The R3 I admit I have not heard, I just find its $2K/pr price a bit silly given the aluminum dome...can't say I've ever been crazy about metal domes, they impress at first but for prolonged listening they become a bit irritating---just my ears, of course. Some folks are fine with them.

The Phils I have not heard, however I know of one or two former S2 owners who found them to surpass the S2, which to me is not surprising given the larger cabinet and 3 way design while employing the same RAAL tweeter...and of course the designer of that speaker I have never ever heard of anyone having anything but effusive praise for, both his products and service.

So, I am basing my comments on a mixture of anecdotal evidence and personal experience. No empirical/objective/universal claims implied.
So Is the R300 closer to being a value now that its price is at $500 a pair less than when you heard them?

As for the aluminum dome tweeter, the KEF "Tangerine Waveguide" on it seems to work wonders. People who have heard my R500 don't even realize it's a metal dome tweeter, and most consider the speakers to be a touch "polite" on the upper end of treble.

I should be hearing the new R3 first among the new R series, my dealer will have their R3 demo speakers in about a week and all of them by the 3rd week in October. They've done a lot of work to improve an already very good line of speakers. Prices are up $200 a pair (and the one center) on all but the top-of-the-line R11, that one stands at the same $5K a pair price as the outgoing R900.
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post #26 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:40 PM
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The RAAL tweeter in the Sierra 2 is at a whole other level.
The RAAL tweeter in the Sierra-2s sound like butter. I am happy I paid the upcharge over the cheaper domes.
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post #27 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 07:15 PM
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So Is the R300 closer to being a value now that its price is at $500 a pair less than when you heard them?

As for the aluminum dome tweeter, the KEF "Tangerine Waveguide" on it seems to work wonders. People who have heard my R500 don't even realize it's a metal dome tweeter, and most consider the speakers to be a touch "polite" on the upper end of treble.

I should be hearing the new R3 first among the new R series, my dealer will have their R3 demo speakers in about a week and all of them by the 3rd week in October. They've done a lot of work to improve an already very good line of speakers. Prices are up $200 a pair (and the one center) on all but the top-of-the-line R11, that one stands at the same $5K a pair price as the outgoing R900.
ah, I see that Crutchfield has it for $1300...yeah I would certainly pick it over the LS50, no question.

Vs the Sierra 2, I think I would be willing to sacrifice a little extra mid-bass for the "like butter" quality that @jjackkrash describes.
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post #28 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 07:34 PM
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Vs the Sierra 2, I think I would be willing to sacrifice a little extra mid-bass for the "like butter" quality that @jjackkrash describes.
I was a little skeptical of getting a speaker with a 6" woofer for my LCR, but the SEAS woofer is pretty potent for its size. That said, there are better options if you have space for a bigger speaker and value bigger dynamics and pounding midbass.
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post #29 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 07:56 PM
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ah, I see that Crutchfield has it for $1300...yeah I would certainly pick it over the LS50, no question.

Vs the Sierra 2, I think I would be willing to sacrifice a little extra mid-bass for the "like butter" quality that @jjackkrash describes.
LS50 is now $1200 a pair, $100 less than the R300. (I got my LS50's used, but mint condition with boxes, accessories and paperwork for $900. Limited Edition "Frosted Black/Blue Driver.")

The tweeter isn't more extended than my R500's according to graphs, but does seem to have better detail. Must be diffraction on the square box of the R500 vs. curved front baffle of the LS50.

Compared to the ribbon tweeter of the Sierra 2 it's not as lush, but does have better, more consistent off-axis performance.
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post #30 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 10:40 PM
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Keeping in mind that the Sierra 2's have the same type of tweeter as Martin Logan, go with what you've heard and liked, not what we think you might like.
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