Back to square one in speaker selection - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Back to square one in speaker selection

So I'm pretty deflated here. I thought I had decided on the Emotiva suite for a 7.2 channel setup, only to start mocking up speaker sizes where they would be along with seating mockups.

My room is roughly 12.5 ft wide and seating will take up anywhere from 9 to 10ft of width depending on style selections, leaving little room on the sides to walk by (will have two row).

So when I placed a B1 sizes speaker mockup on the wall for the side surrounds, obviously it was almost in the ear of the person that would be sitting on the end, not to mention further limiting access to the second row of seats.

I'm kind of at a loss for what to do here.

Do I opt for in walls instead? If so, I have done zero research on them. I don't know what is what except for I'll have to pay quite a bit more for similar performance.

Do I go with Emotiva E1 for sides and rears? Are they a huge step down from the B1s? Even then, I feel they may protrude a little too much.

Klipsch in walls seem to be reasonably priced but are they comparable to the Emotiva? Could I use them as sides rears and keep towers in front?

Do I just place the speakers way off axis behind the seating? Doesn't seem optimal.

Just do 2 seating positions instead of 3? But then you'd never be on center screen and my OCD may drive me crazy.

Surely someone has to have had a similar situation in a similar sized room.

Really bummed out here...
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post #2 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 12:17 PM
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How much do you want/need 7.2? A good 5 channel system will be better than a poorly designed 7 channel one. My living room is 13 feet wide and I don't think I'd ever want side channels.
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post #3 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matpal View Post
So I'm pretty deflated here. I thought I had decided on the Emotiva suite for a 7.2 channel setup, only to start mocking up speaker sizes where they would be along with seating mockups.

My room is roughly 12.5 ft wide and seating will take up anywhere from 9 to 10ft of width depending on style selections, leaving little room on the sides to walk by (will have two row).

So when I placed a B1 sizes speaker mockup on the wall for the side surrounds, obviously it was almost in the ear of the person that would be sitting on the end, not to mention further limiting access to the second row of seats.

I'm kind of at a loss for what to do here.

Do I opt for in walls instead? If so, I have done zero research on them. I don't know what is what except for I'll have to pay quite a bit more for similar performance.

Do I go with Emotiva E1 for sides and rears? Are they a huge step down from the B1s? Even then, I feel they may protrude a little too much.

Klipsch in walls seem to be reasonably priced but are they comparable to the Emotiva? Could I use them as sides rears and keep towers in front?

Do I just place the speakers way off axis behind the seating? Doesn't seem optimal.

Just do 2 seating positions instead of 3? But then you'd never be on center screen and my OCD may drive me crazy.

Surely someone has to have had a similar situation in a similar sized room.

Really bummed out here...
If you are not going for Atmos something like the SVS Elevation, (or the Emotiva E1s wall mounted with a bracket), mounted higher up, pointed down if you prefer, can work just fine.

In my 5.1 setup due to restrictions my rears are on the same wall as the couch mounted at ear height when standing, over the end tables, on flat shelves pointed to the center of the room.

It shouldn't work but it does and very well IMHO.

Atmos may be out of the question for me as moving them to below half way down the wall has them right in someone's ear just as in your situation.

My friend has that and it just plain sucks.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #4 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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That certainly would be an option consider.

I'm also wanting to do the 4 channel Atmos in-ceiling so I guess a 5.2.4 system would still be pretty good.

How far are your rear speakers from the closest listening position?
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post #5 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
How much do you want/need 7.2? A good 5 channel system will be better than a poorly designed 7 channel one. My living room is 13 feet wide and I don't think I'd ever want side channels.
Speakers 4 and 5 in a 5 channel system are the "surrounds" and go to the side of the listener to maybe a bit behind the listener. In a 7 channel system speakers 4 and 5 can be moved slightly in front of the listener but still to the side (although Dolby specs don't reflect the slightly-in-front position).

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/su...tup/index.html
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post #6 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matpal View Post
So when I placed a B1 sizes speaker mockup on the wall for the side surrounds, obviously it was almost in the ear of the person that would be sitting on the end, not to mention further limiting access to the second row of seats.
What is you budget for the surrounds per speaker?
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post #7 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 02:05 PM
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Get narrower seats ... or go two seats, offset, in front and three in back. That solves the walkway problem.

As to the speakers, you can place them just forward of the rear seated ears and angle then forward a bit, towards the front row of seats. That will reduce the "in your ear" effect. In addition, if the seats are high back, you will want to raise the speakers high enough to get a direct line of sight to the seated ears of the front row.

There are some options, the most obvious is to use the B1s. The E1s might work, but they may look weird if the angle becomes large. You could also go with one of the Cambridge Audio Minx Min speakers, which should be reasonably compatible with the AMT tweeter employed by the Emotivas.

Some speaker placement and angle experimentation should be your approach, to get the best coverage, before permanent installation.
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post #8 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matpal View Post
That certainly would be an option consider.

I'm also wanting to do the 4 channel Atmos in-ceiling so I guess a 5.2.4 system would still be pretty good.

How far are your rear speakers from the closest listening position?
lf you are asking me the answer in my case would be about 4 feet but, again, even in that case they are that much higher and a bit to the side of the listening position not aimed down to the listener but aimed towards the center of the room and oddly the surround effect is very good.

In 5.1.4 Atmos you want the 5 "main" speakers no further than 1/2 way up the wall.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #9 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matpal View Post
So when I placed a B1 sizes speaker mockup on the wall for the side surrounds, obviously it was almost in the ear of the person that would be sitting on the end, not to mention further limiting access to the second row of seats.
What is you budget for the surrounds per speaker?
Was hoping for under $2500 for the 7 main channels.

Separate budget for sub and Atmos.
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post #10 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 04:17 PM
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"My room is roughly 12.5 ft wide..."

How long is the room?

12.5ft x what?

Not really knowing the length of the room, it is hard to know what to recommend.

You mention Emotiva, but you don't say what Emotiva speakers you are considering.

I would speculate that Bookshelf with Subs in front would work best.

Will this be a Projection Screen or an actual TV? DO NOT make the Screen so big that you leave no room for speakers. You have to think of the whole Home Cinema Room as a system. Every choice you make effects every other aspect.

Which bring up another aspects. Even with a Subwoofer, Floorstanding Front Speakers need more room than Bookshelf speakers. That means Floorstanding need to forward of the wall and away from the side walls. Bookshelf still need room around them, just not as much as Floorstanding.

With a narrow 12.5ft front, you are going to be limited on the speakers you choose and on the size of the screen. Though there are narrow wall mount speakers that can off-set that -

Monitor Audio Radius -


https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/product-ranges/radius/

Definitive Technologies Mythos -

https://www.definitivetechnology.com.../mythos-series

There are others. I think Paradigm and Klipsch make similar speakers.

Very much keep a system approach. Ever decision you make, whether you see it now or not, will have an effect on every other decision you have to eventually make.

As to furniture, again part of the system approach. If you have a plan that won't work, then simply change to a plan that will work. A typical 3-person sofa is about 7ft wide. That leaves you 2.5 feet on each side. Don't get locked into one way of thinking. If something clearly doesn't work, then ask, what will work? Compromises are always made when converting imagination into reality.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #11 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 05:05 PM
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My two cents would be... do you really "have" to have the extra speakers?

I personally stopped at 5.1 for several reasons. One being essentially, when is enough, enough?

What do we do when manufacturers some out with a 43.23 system?

I'd personally rather have fewer but much more capable speakers than more of them.

(My wife would tell you I'm very passe')
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post #12 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
In my 5.1 setup due to restrictions my rears are on the same wall as the couch mounted at ear height when standing, over the end tables, on flat shelves pointed to the center of the room.

It shouldn't work but it does and very well IMHO.
My 7.1 has end table 45 deg rears and surrounds (I think dipole) mounted high on rear wall. Surround sound is pretty immersive despite atypical placement (though there is a Dolby guide to a similar placement). With calibration and good room acoustics you can still get decent results.
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Main 7.1 HT: Dali Zensor (7s, Vokal, and 1s), Emotiva E2s, HSU ULS-15 MK2, Emotiva BasX preamp/amps (MC-700, A-300, A-500)
Kid’s 5.1 HT: Dali Oberon (5s, Vokal), RSL C34Es, HSU VTF-2 MK5, Denon X2400H
7-Zone CCA/Spotify WHA: Paradigm (E-80Rs x6, P-80SM), Def Tech AW6500s, Polk MC-80, Emotiva BasX amps (A-700, A-500), FiiO D3 DACs
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post #13 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
"My room is roughly 12.5 ft wide..."

How long is the room?

12.5ft x what?

Not really knowing the length of the room, it is hard to know what to recommend.

You mention Emotiva, but you don't say what Emotiva speakers you are considering.

I would speculate that Bookshelf with Subs in front would work best.

Will this be a Projection Screen or an actual TV? DO NOT make the Screen so big that you leave no room for speakers. You have to think of the whole Home Cinema Room as a system. Every choice you make effects every other aspect.

Which bring up another aspects. Even with a Subwoofer, Floorstanding Front Speakers need more room than Bookshelf speakers. That means Floorstanding need to forward of the wall and away from the side walls. Bookshelf still need room around them, just not as much as Floorstanding.

With a narrow 12.5ft front, you are going to be limited on the speakers you choose and on the size of the screen. Though there are narrow wall mount speakers that can off-set that -

Monitor Audio Radius -


https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/product-ranges/radius/

Definitive Technologies Mythos -

https://www.definitivetechnology.com.../mythos-series

There are others. I think Paradigm and Klipsch make similar speakers.

Very much keep a system approach. Ever decision you make, whether you see it now or not, will have an effect on every other decision you have to eventually make.

As to furniture, again part of the system approach. If you have a plan that won't work, then simply change to a plan that will work. A typical 3-person sofa is about 7ft wide. That leaves you 2.5 feet on each side. Don't get locked into one way of thinking. If something clearly doesn't work, then ask, what will work? Compromises are always made when converting imagination into reality.

Steve/bluewizard
Thanks so much for the detailed response.

The room is roughly 12.5 *19. I was hoping to get a 120 inch screen, but with two rows of seating (I'd obviously like to have the whole family be able to watch at once) it may put the first row too close, so we may in fact opt for the 100 inch.

Speakers, I really wanted to get the Emotiva T2 and C2 for front, B1s for sides and may be the E1 for rears.

I'll have a look at the links you provided, but obviously it will be hard to get the bang for my buck that I was hopefully going to get with the mentioned Emotiva setup.
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post #14 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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So Klipsch's website is horrendous for customer support. I'm unable to find much useful information pertaining to their in-wall series.

If I were to opt for in-wall speakers from them (or anyone else for that matter) is a backer box necessary withing the wall cavity? if so, how would the speaker continue to fit flush with the wall if you're building an additional box around it? I realize some in-wall speakers come with an integrated box, but a quick look puts those way out of my price range ($1000+ per speaker).
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post #15 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matpal View Post
The room is roughly 12.5 *19. I was hoping to get a 120 inch screen, but with two rows of seating (I'd obviously like to have the whole family be able to watch at once) it may put the first row too close, so we may in fact opt for the 100 inch.
Get an AT (acoustically transparent) screen and put the speakers behind it, build a false wall if possible...problem solved plus it allows you to have 3 identical fronts all vertically aligned, which is the acoustic ideal.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #16 of 17 Old 10-15-2018, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matpal View Post
The room is roughly 12.5 *19. I was hoping to get a 120 inch screen, but with two rows of seating (I'd obviously like to have the whole family be able to watch at once) it may put the first row too close, so we may in fact opt for the 100 inch.
What steps have you taken to plan out the room?

You generally need to start with the seats and plan the room around the seats, making sure you have have room to walk, can see the screen, have room for a proper riser (and enough ceiling height) for the back row if you are using multiple rows, making sure the seats you want will fit, making sure the PJ throw distance works for your room and screen size, etc., and making sure you have room for speakers, all in relation to the plan for the seats. Two rows might be doable with 19 feet, but I can tell you its going to be tight. The room I am planning is 13w x 22L, with 8' ceiling, and I am settling in on three main seats in one row, with maybe some bean bags up front for kids and bar seating behind the three main seats for spillover because a full back row is going to push heavy into the rear surrounds, my subwoofer plan, and the door in the rear.

Have you posted in the dedicated build thread or got any advice on room set up?

If you are buying gear before you have a room plan, you are doing it backwards and are probably in for a few set backs and unnecessary costs.
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post #17 of 17 Old 10-16-2018, 04:53 AM
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For two rows of seating, it is going to get complicated. Have you worked out how high the rear row needs to be to see over the front row. Likely during the movie people are going to slouch down and relax, so you have to take that into consideration. And you are likely going to have to choose Front seats that are not high back. If you do, then the row behind has to be that much higher.

Can you tell us how high the ceilings are in the room? With a standard 8ft ceiling, about the highest you can raise the rear seating is about 1 or 2 feet. And you have to consider getting onto and off of this riser. And you have to have some protection to make sure people don't fall off the riser.

One way to overcome the need for a high riser is to mount the TV up higher. But if the TV is too high, those in the front row will always be looking up. If to low, those in the back row won't be able to see the bottom of the screen. Again, I emphasize that a Home Cinema room has to be looked at as a system. Every decision is going to effect the other decisions that have to be made.

If we assume the screen will have a 16:9 aspect ratio, then a 100 inch diagonal screen is about 49 inches high x 87 inches wide (unless my math is wrong). Unless I'm mistaken the screen would be 7.25 feet wide and 4ft 1 inch high. That leaves 5.25 feet or 2.625 feet on each side of the screen. That is the space on each side that you have available to place speakers. Remembering that the speakers can not be shoved into the corners, and you have to have space for one or more Subwoofer. Though if you do not place the equipment stand in the front of the room, then you will have plenty of room for the Front, Sub(s) and Center.

Just as a point of reference, here are the Klipsch On-Wall speakers I was talking about -

https://www.klipsch.com/flat-panel-speakers

I'm not saying buy them, I'm simply saying this is what this option looks like. I'm not even sure the speakers are still available, I just remembered seeing a photo of them somewhere. But it illustrates a possibility even if you don't pick these exact speakers.

Also here are some similar speaker from PARADIGM, though a bit on the expensive side -

https://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=lcr

Likely that back raised tier of seating is going to need to be about 4 feet deep. A quick measure of my Sofa indicates it is about 3 feet deep, and you will need room to walk in front of the seating to actually get to the raised seating. Between the two we have eaten about 7ft to 8ft of the room. That leaves about 11ft to 12ft available in a 19ft room. If we put 2/3rds in front and 1/3rd in back, then that is 8ft in front between the front wall and the first row of seating, and 4ft behind the back row of seating on the assumption that is can not be placed back against the rear wall.

So, is an 8ft seating distance (roughly...more or less) going to be adequate for a 100" diagonal screen? You'll have to work that out. There are calculators on line for most of these aspects of Home Theater because they come up in ever Home Theater install.

Using my own calculations, I estimate (assuming my math is right) that at 8ft viewing distance, with a 100" Diagonal screen (87" horizontal). The viewing angle is about ±25°. Which sounds OK ...assuming... my math is right.

So, now we come to the Emotiva T2 Floorstanding Speakers -

https://emotiva.com/products/airmotiv-t2

Great speakers I'm sure, but the question isn't are the great, the question is ... Will they work in your room? So the speakers will be about 8ft from the listener and about 8 to 9 feet apart. Is that distance adequate for Floorstanding Speakers? You will have to work that out.

In my installation with a room 16ft wide (and some other complicating factors) my speakers are placed about 5 ft wide with about an 11ft listening distance. That is a bit too narrow, and at 11ft fine, but a bit too close, not by much though. But then I have a regular 42" TV between them.

Again, you can see how each choice effects all the other choices.

You have to lay this out very carefully before you start buying equipment. As some else suggested, you might start with working out the type of seating, the location, and how much space that is going to take. Then once that is worked out determine the Screen and Speaker size based on that.

This is not really my area of expertise, I'm just working through what I think I would have to work through if I were in a similar situation.

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
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