Bookshelf speakers as atmos ceiling - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 2 Post By Selden Ball
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 10-24-2018, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 560
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Bookshelf speakers as atmos ceiling

Looking for a pair under $100 to do a 7.2.2 set up

The 2 bookselves will be the atmos speakers mounted to the ceiling pointing down. REcommendations?
Asgard1an is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 10-24-2018, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 18,753
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3196 Post(s)
Liked: 3103
Look at the Sound Appeal
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Appeal-...70_&dpSrc=srch

----------------
Who AM I
zieglj01 is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 10-25-2018, 04:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 4,367
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1889 Post(s)
Liked: 1089
Aim them at the listening area not down.
Ellebob is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 20 Old 10-25-2018, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 560
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
Aim them at the listening area not down.
So for the the 7.2.2 basically use this config? Ignore the front Atmos.


Last edited by Asgard1an; 10-25-2018 at 09:11 AM.
Asgard1an is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 10-25-2018, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 14,833
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4815 Post(s)
Liked: 2850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgard1an View Post
So for the the 7.2.2 basically use this config? Ignore the front Atmos.
A 7.2.4 configuration, as shown in the picture is noticeably better than a 7.2.2 configuration, since it provides for both front-to-back and side-to-side panning of the overhead sounds.

If they're for 7.2.2 with no plans to expand to 7.2.4, then the speakers should be mounted at the Top Middle position: directly above or slightly forward of the main listening position. That'd give the best results for overhead sounds.

Top Front (~45 degrees forward) or Front Height (directly above the front main speakers) would be my next preference. This results in a front-centric soundstage, which some people prefer. I'd rate the rear overhead speaker locations last.

In all cases, the best speaker orientations tend to be with the speakers pointed toward the opposite side of the seating: Top Left pointed toward the right-most seat and Top Right pointed toward the leftmost seat. This is often called the "equal energy" orienation, with being off-axis compensating for being closer to the speaker, for example. Pointing directly down works only when the speakers have been intentionally designed to have a wide dispersion. That's not the case for standard bookshelf speakers.
Victor_S and dfa973 like this.

Selden

Marantz SR7009 avr + MM9000 amp --> Atmos 7.1.4
Fronts=NHT 2.9+AC2, FH+TM=DefTech PM1000, LCR+TM amped
Selden Ball is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 10-25-2018, 04:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 4,367
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1889 Post(s)
Liked: 1089
In the Dolby spec if you take their class like I have it says speaker needs to be aimed towards the audience. I work in this industry and I do acoustic deign as part of my job. I don't know why they show it that way on their consumer site. For in ceiling speakers I would recommend angled models if placing it 45 degrees off axis. But just in case you don't believe me here is literally the guy who wrote the book and what he is doing on his room with bookshelf speakers on the ceiling. I attached a picture of Dobly's HT Atmos demo room at the Audio Engineering Society (AES) convention. i hope this clears up their poor recommendations on their webstite as even they don't follow their webite's guidelines in their own demo room. They could have flush mounted their bookeshelf speakers aiming straight down.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post56635046

His book's latest edition, I have all of them and they are a good read or at least better than most technically natured books
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprodu...d+reproduction

For others looking at in ceiling speakers. This post was for someone wanting to use in ceiling speakers for his front speakers but the angles still apply. Look at post #5 and #7 .
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post53625065
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Dolby Atmos AES Demo Room.jpg
Views:	167
Size:	765.8 KB
ID:	2473668  
Ellebob is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 10-27-2018, 03:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
larrimore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Over the river and through the woods
Posts: 1,868
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgard1an View Post
So for the the 7.2.2 basically use this config? Ignore the front Atmos.

Actually, that diagram looks like it is a 9.2.4 system. No receiver supports that as far as I know. 7.2.4 would eliminate the front width channels, I believe. Others can correct if I am wrong.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Living the HT Dream in 4D.
4K HDR Cinema 106"@9ft w/5.4.2 Object Surround Sound and 6 Aura Bass Shakers
larrimore is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 10-27-2018, 03:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
larrimore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Over the river and through the woods
Posts: 1,868
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrimore View Post
Actually, that diagram looks like it is a 9.2.4 system. No receiver supports that as far as I know. 7.2.4 would eliminate the front width channels, I believe. Others can correct if I am wrong.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Sorry, it actually looks like 9.1.4 since there is only one sub.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Living the HT Dream in 4D.
4K HDR Cinema 106"@9ft w/5.4.2 Object Surround Sound and 6 Aura Bass Shakers
larrimore is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 10-27-2018, 04:58 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 14,833
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4815 Post(s)
Liked: 2850
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrimore View Post
Actually, that diagram looks like it is a 9.2.4 system. No receiver supports that as far as I know. 7.2.4 would eliminate the front width channels, I believe. Others can correct if I am wrong.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Denon's flagship receiver, the AVR-X8500W, supports having 13 simultaneously active channels (but has only 11 internal amplifiers) configured as either 9.1.4 or 7.1.6. To use all 13 of its processing channels you'd have to add at least 2 channels of external amplification. If you provide 4 channels of external amplification, it can calibrate 15 channels and later you can switch between the two different speaker configurations without changing any speaker connections.

If you're willing to spend a lot more, StormAudio has a 16 channel receiver (model I.ISP 3D.16.12 ELITE, with 12 internal amplifiers) which allows you to configure its amps in any configuration you want. To use all 16 of its processing channels you'd have to add at least 4 channels of external amplification, though.

Emotiva claims that they'll have a receiver similar to the StormAudio early next year.

Selden

Marantz SR7009 avr + MM9000 amp --> Atmos 7.1.4
Fronts=NHT 2.9+AC2, FH+TM=DefTech PM1000, LCR+TM amped
Selden Ball is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 10-28-2018, 08:02 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, Ontario
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Not sure if using bookshelf speakers mounted to the ceiling facing down is the best option. Why don’t you install in ceiling speakers. This is the most common option. Or get a good pair of up firing speakers meant for atmos and place them on top of your front left and right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lightsout190 is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 10-30-2018, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 560
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsout190 View Post
Not sure if using bookshelf speakers mounted to the ceiling facing down is the best option. Why don’t you install in ceiling speakers. This is the most common option. Or get a good pair of up firing speakers meant for atmos and place them on top of your front left and right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I just don;t want to cut into the ceiling and it would be very tough to run wires. So the solution im looking for would be an 'above the drywall' install type.

Which speakers would be good for the upfiring?
Asgard1an is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 10-30-2018, 08:44 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, Ontario
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgard1an View Post
I just don;t want to cut into the ceiling and it would be very tough to run wires. So the solution im looking for would be an 'above the drywall' install type.

Which speakers would be good for the upfiring?
OK I hear you about cutting a hole in the ceiling and running wires through. In that case I would then suggest the upfiring Atmos speakers mounted on top of your left and right speakers. Here are three examples of different brands.



http://ca.kef.com/q50a


https://www.elac.com/product/debut-a4/



http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POC...ers/SP-T22A-LR


Now keep in mind all three of these will cost allot more than the $100 budget you have, with the KEF probably being the most expensive. But I have to be honest with you and tell you that for under $100 your are not going to get a very good bookshelf speaker either. And cheap bookshelf speakers will not be able to be used as an Atoms speaker by hanging them upside down. So your basically going to waste your money if your buying them for that purpose. Not to mention that aesthetically this is going to look awful. If I were you I would drop the second sub as it is not really necessary and for the money you save on that invest in a good pair of of Atoms speakers like the ones I provided in the link above. I am sure there are many more like this out there as well.
lightsout190 is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 10-30-2018, 08:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dfa973's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 1,241
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 835 Post(s)
Liked: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgard1an View Post
Looking for a pair under $100 to do a 7.2.2 set up

The 2 bookselves will be the atmos speakers mounted to the ceiling pointing down. REcommendations?
I use Wharfedale Crystal 4.1 small bookshelves as on-ceiling speakers, but pointed towards the MLP, not down.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Wharfedale Crystal 4.1 black-ring.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	68.9 KB
ID:	2475658  
dfa973 is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 10-14-2019, 02:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,214
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Hi, I've been planning to mount bookshelf speakers for Atmos ceiling speakers. Would using center channel speakers (MTM), drivers oriented right to left parallel with seating, be a superior option?

Please excuse my attempt to portray this the following way in text


...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MTM...................MTM...

VERSUS


...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MT..........................TM...

OR


...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...TM..........................MT...



Also, ceiling speakers best to be on the outside of seating or directly above? If using MTM center channel speakers, 'above seating' could provide more sound coverage along length of seats?
Brian81 is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 10-14-2019, 04:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
WOKNROX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: SoCal HiDez
Posts: 754
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 339
I've used the Definitive technology studiomonitor 450's and they work really good.
I recently was able to score 4 of the Sony Core 5's when they were on sale..$75 a pair... I'm running them now as Atmos speakers and really like them. The 3 way design with the super tweeter really shines over the hard dome tweeter in the Def-Tec's.

The Core 5's go on sale frequently so keep an eye out for them.

Orotund Desert Theater:14'x20'x10',100amp service, JVC RS620, 120" AT screen, Carada Masquerade Masking, OPPO-203 & Panny ub820, Anthem AVM60, Simaudio Moon Titan 7&5 channel amplifiers, ACInfinity Fans, L&R Polk SDA SRStl Fully built, CC 2 Polk RTA15tl in Custom Cabinets Fully build, SS-BS Triad Gold, 4 Atmos 3 way Core5's, Subs-1 Rythmik FV25HP & 4 HSU VTF-MK5-HP, 2 Rows of 3 Seatcraft Excalibur Lx Seats and more.
WOKNROX is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old 10-14-2019, 05:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,214
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 11
My last posting example does not appear correctly

Code:
 ...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
 ...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
 ...MTM...................MTM...

VERSUS


 ...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
 ...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
 ...MT..........................TM...

OR


 ...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
 ...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
 ...TM..........................MT...
Perhaps this will work?
Brian81 is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 10-14-2019, 06:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
WOKNROX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: SoCal HiDez
Posts: 754
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian81 View Post
Hi, I've been planning to mount bookshelf speakers for Atmos ceiling speakers. Would using center channel speakers (MTM), drivers oriented right to left parallel with seating, be a superior option?

Please excuse my attempt to portray this the following way in text


...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MTM...................MTM...

VERSUS


...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MT..........................TM...

OR


...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...TM..........................MT...



Also, ceiling speakers best to be on the outside of seating or directly above? If using MTM center channel speakers, 'above seating' could provide more sound coverage along length of seats?
I used to use Definitive technology clr 2500...four of them...for my Atmos speakers and man did they kick A$$!!

They are a bit heavy so you need to make good mounts.
I never would've moved away from them but you need to be able to apply double bass to make good use of their powered bass/subs. When I switched to the Anthem avm60 I lost this feature and could no longer use them.

I still have them around here somewhere....

Orotund Desert Theater:14'x20'x10',100amp service, JVC RS620, 120" AT screen, Carada Masquerade Masking, OPPO-203 & Panny ub820, Anthem AVM60, Simaudio Moon Titan 7&5 channel amplifiers, ACInfinity Fans, L&R Polk SDA SRStl Fully built, CC 2 Polk RTA15tl in Custom Cabinets Fully build, SS-BS Triad Gold, 4 Atmos 3 way Core5's, Subs-1 Rythmik FV25HP & 4 HSU VTF-MK5-HP, 2 Rows of 3 Seatcraft Excalibur Lx Seats and more.
WOKNROX is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 10-14-2019, 07:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 404
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian81 View Post
Hi, I've been planning to mount bookshelf speakers for Atmos ceiling speakers. Would using center channel speakers (MTM), drivers oriented right to left parallel with seating, be a superior option?

Please excuse my attempt to portray this the following way in text


...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MTM...................MTM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MTM...................MTM...

VERSUS


...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MT..........................TM...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...MT..........................TM...

OR


...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...TM..........................MT...
......[-----SEATING-----]......
...TM..........................MT...



Also, ceiling speakers best to be on the outside of seating or directly above? If using MTM center channel speakers, 'above seating' could provide more sound coverage along length of seats?
MTM is a flawed design and only intended for when you need to place a speaker under a TV.
Unless you already have MTM speakers I would just use normal bookshelfs.
I ran my surrounds upside down once and couldn't tell any difference so I would try them both ways to see which sounds best if you go with bookshelfs.
niterida is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 10-14-2019, 08:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
WOKNROX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: SoCal HiDez
Posts: 754
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
MTM is a flawed design and only intended for when you need to place a speaker under a TV.
Unless you already have MTM speakers I would just use normal bookshelfs.
I ran my surrounds upside down once and couldn't tell any difference so I would try them both ways to see which sounds best if you go with bookshelfs.
I would agree to just use mono-poles if buying but, judging from his diagram it looks like he's going to stand them up.
If so I don't see anything wrong with that... If he's wanting to keep the arm-chair jockeys here on the forums happy...lol

To be honest I really couldn't really tell the difference between standing up an on the sides with the clr2500's.
Your pointing them @ the MLP anyways.

Orotund Desert Theater:14'x20'x10',100amp service, JVC RS620, 120" AT screen, Carada Masquerade Masking, OPPO-203 & Panny ub820, Anthem AVM60, Simaudio Moon Titan 7&5 channel amplifiers, ACInfinity Fans, L&R Polk SDA SRStl Fully built, CC 2 Polk RTA15tl in Custom Cabinets Fully build, SS-BS Triad Gold, 4 Atmos 3 way Core5's, Subs-1 Rythmik FV25HP & 4 HSU VTF-MK5-HP, 2 Rows of 3 Seatcraft Excalibur Lx Seats and more.
WOKNROX is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 10-15-2019, 03:05 PM
Member
 
BlueGhost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 27
These little cube speakers from BA look like they would work for Atmos.
BlueGhost is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off