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post #1 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Crossover settings... help!

Need help/suggestions on crossover settings for 5.2.4 Atmos

This is my setup:

AVR: Onkyo TX-NR787
Front Left, Center, Front Right: Polk OWM5
Surround Left, Surround Right: Polk OWM5
Atmos Top Front Left/Right: Polk OWM3
Atmos Top Rear Left/Right: Polk OWM3
Sub: Polk PSW10 (x2)

Polk OWM5 has a total freq response of 60Hz to 25Hz at 8ohms
Polk OWM3 has a total freq response of 80Hz to 25Hz at 8ohms

I currently have all of them set to 100Hz with the "LPF of LFE" set to the default 120hz

The AVR allows me to select either 4ohms or 6ohms, but NOT 8. The AVR is rated at 220W per channel at 6ohms.

With my setup, how would you adjust the crossover and LPF or LFE?

Thank you

Gus R
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post #2 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 10:26 AM
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I would run AccuEQ and adjust the crossover from there to whatever sounds best to you (higher, but NOT any lower than AccuEQ sets it).

Leave that LPF of LFE setting alone. It only applies to the LFE channel of multichannel content (the .1 of 5.1, 7.1, etc) and not to any other sound sent to the sub.
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post #3 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 10:28 AM
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the default setting on the receiver should be 8 ohm.. i am not familiar with denon but i am sure someone can elaborate ...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
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post #4 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osirus23 View Post
I would run AccuEQ and adjust the crossover from there to whatever sounds best to you (higher, but NOT any lower than AccuEQ sets it).

Leave that LPF of LFE setting alone. It only applies to the LFE channel of multichannel content (the .1 of 5.1, 7.1, etc) and not to any other sound sent to the sub.

I am waiting on a new mic in the mail because the one that came with my AVR is defective. So, I'm attempting to setup based on speaker ratings. Thank you for the reply. Hopefully the new mic works and I can experience AccuEQ.

Gus R
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post #5 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 11:17 AM
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I would take those frequency response numbers with a grain of salt. How the speakers are set up in your room will define their frequency response. My guess would be that you will have better overall performance by relieving the mains of as much bass as you can afford, crossing over the OWM3 and OWM5 at 120 and 100, respectively. You may even find that higher crossover points yield better results, depending upon the capabilities of your sub, it's positioning, and your usage.

Experiment, and let your ears decide what sounds best. Oh, and Accu EQ is not the final arbiter of what is best. If it isn't making things better, then turn it off and set your parameters manually.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

Last edited by RayGuy; 11-14-2018 at 11:24 AM.
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post #6 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 11:27 AM
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What RayGuy said and set your speaker impedance to 6 ohms

"Rock and roll is alive and alright" Sloan
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post #7 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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If the reference volume of my AVR is 82... should I adjust the dB of all speakers to 82? I currently used 75dB as a baseline. Thoughts?

Gus R
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post #8 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 12:19 PM
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First off, congratulations on your new system. It's a system you should be able to enjoy for quite a while.

To address your questions, let me ask a few more...

How close do you sit to your speakers? How large is the whole listening area? How far away from the walls are the speakers placed? How loud do you like to listen? These will all play into the optimal crossover setting.

Here are the full complement of specs for your front speakers from Polk:
Audio Quality:
  • Total Frequency Response: 60 Hz → 25 Hz
  • Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
  • Sensitivity (1 watt @ 1 meter): 91 dB
  • Lower and Upper -3dB Limits: 80 Hz → 22 Hz
  • Recommended Amplifier Power Per Channel: 20 watts - 150 watts
  • Front Array Driver Complement
    • (2) 4.5" (11.43 cm) d (Round) - Midrange
    • (1) 1" (2.54 cm) d (Round) - Tweeter
So forget about the "Total Frequency Response" spec and look only at the -3 dB limit of the speakers, which is 80 Hz, not 60 Hz. Even this is pretty optimistic with just 4.5" drivers. This 80 Hz spec is measured at 75 dB output. If you like to listen louder than that, (and most of us do), then figure that the -3 dB point will be higher at louder levels. If you sit further away than about 10 to 12 ft. you will want a higher crossover to ensure you don't overdrive the 4.5" drivers. A 100 Hz crossover is certainly reasonable, and you may want to go higher if you listen louder. Just ensure that your 2 subs are not located close to each other so you don't get any sub localization.

Here are the power specs on your receiver:

100 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)
220 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 1 Channel Driven)

Note that the 220 wpc spec you quoted is only valid at 6 ohms with a bandwidth-limited, 1 kHz signal, and with 10% Total Harmonic Distortion, (THD, and just 1 channel driven. In other words, you'll never get 220 watts out of that receiver without blowing it up or destroying your speakers. The other spec, (the FTC spec of 100 watts with a full-band signal and a reasonable distortion level into 2-channels), is much more appropriate and applicable to that receiver. You can expect less output when more channels are driven. Nonetheless, 100 wpc is a a reasonable spec for a receiver to drive those speakers. Having said that, the further away you sit, and the further from the walls the speakers are placed, the higher the demand for watts the receiver will see. If you sit more than 10 or 12 ft. away, you'll want to be more judicious with the Master Volume Control.

Your subs will "see" the entire space, including all adjacent open spaces, as the volume they need to pressurize. 10" woofers in a small box with just 50 watts driving them will be challenged by a large open space. If you can limit the size of the space by closing doors and sealing off adjacent spaces, that would be helpful. Also note that your subs are ported, and the ports are tuned very close to the -3dB point of 40 Hz. If you send them loud signals with content below 40 Hz, they will be especially challenged, and will likely distort and the ports will chuff. You will want to listen carefully to them as you raise the volume to ensure they don't get damaged, especially if your space is large.

Good luck and enjoy your system.

Craig
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post #9 of 12 Old 11-14-2018, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
If the reference volume of my AVR is 82... should I adjust the dB of all speakers to 82? I currently used 75dB as a baseline. Thoughts?
No. The test tones are 75 dB signals, so use 75 dB when using an SPL meter to set the levels.
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post #10 of 12 Old 11-15-2018, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
First off, congratulations on your new system. It's a system you should be able to enjoy for quite a while.

To address your questions, let me ask a few more...

How close do you sit to your speakers? How large is the whole listening area? How far away from the walls are the speakers placed? How loud do you like to listen? These will all play into the optimal crossover setting.

Here are the full complement of specs for your front speakers from Polk:
Audio Quality:
  • Total Frequency Response: 60 Hz → 25 Hz
  • Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
  • Sensitivity (1 watt @ 1 meter): 91 dB
  • Lower and Upper -3dB Limits: 80 Hz → 22 Hz
  • Recommended Amplifier Power Per Channel: 20 watts - 150 watts
  • Front Array Driver Complement
    • (2) 4.5" (11.43 cm) d (Round) - Midrange
    • (1) 1" (2.54 cm) d (Round) - Tweeter
So forget about the "Total Frequency Response" spec and look only at the -3 dB limit of the speakers, which is 80 Hz, not 60 Hz. Even this is pretty optimistic with just 4.5" drivers. This 80 Hz spec is measured at 75 dB output. If you like to listen louder than that, (and most of us do), then figure that the -3 dB point will be higher at louder levels. If you sit further away than about 10 to 12 ft. you will want a higher crossover to ensure you don't overdrive the 4.5" drivers. A 100 Hz crossover is certainly reasonable, and you may want to go higher if you listen louder. Just ensure that your 2 subs are not located close to each other so you don't get any sub localization.

Here are the power specs on your receiver:

100 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)
220 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 1 Channel Driven)

Note that the 220 wpc spec you quoted is only valid at 6 ohms with a bandwidth-limited, 1 kHz signal, and with 10% Total Harmonic Distortion, (THD, and just 1 channel driven. In other words, you'll never get 220 watts out of that receiver without blowing it up or destroying your speakers. The other spec, (the FTC spec of 100 watts with a full-band signal and a reasonable distortion level into 2-channels), is much more appropriate and applicable to that receiver. You can expect less output when more channels are driven. Nonetheless, 100 wpc is a a reasonable spec for a receiver to drive those speakers. Having said that, the further away you sit, and the further from the walls the speakers are placed, the higher the demand for watts the receiver will see. If you sit more than 10 or 12 ft. away, you'll want to be more judicious with the Master Volume Control.

Your subs will "see" the entire space, including all adjacent open spaces, as the volume they need to pressurize. 10" woofers in a small box with just 50 watts driving them will be challenged by a large open space. If you can limit the size of the space by closing doors and sealing off adjacent spaces, that would be helpful. Also note that your subs are ported, and the ports are tuned very close to the -3dB point of 40 Hz. If you send them loud signals with content below 40 Hz, they will be especially challenged, and will likely distort and the ports will chuff. You will want to listen carefully to them as you raise the volume to ensure they don't get damaged, especially if your space is large.

Good luck and enjoy your system.

Craig

Thank you Craig, you're extremely knowledgeable. My room is about 20' x 15'. The main listening position is 11 to 12ft from the front speakers. 6 to 7ft from height speakers. And 8 to 9ft from the surrounds (rear speakers). All speakers are keyhole mounted. They are not flush however. I used felt pads and 1in rubber feet to angle the speakers toward the listening position. The front L/R are angled in at roughly 45 deg and the center is angle up slightly (due to it being mounted below the screen about 3ft from the floor. The heights are ceiling mounted, but I created my own brackets that drop them about an inch from the ceiling, so they're not "flush". The surrounds are angled down slightly using monoprice mounts and are a couple inches off the wall. Subwoofer 1 sits in the front left corner about 12ft away. It is 2-3in from the wall. Subwoofer 2 sits to the right of the listening position about 6ft away, but 14-15ft from subwoofer 1. It's port is not against a wall.

I set the OWM 5's at 100Hz (FL, C, FR, SL, SR) and calibrated them to 75dB using an SPL app on my phone. I set the OWM 3's at 120Hz (the 4 Heights) and calibrated those to 75dB as well. After all were calibrated to 75dB using the SPL meter, I adjusted the center channel up +3 to 4dB to 78/79dB for better vocals. I also adjusted the height channels up to 77dB (+2dB) to better capture Atmos effects.

The subwoofer LPF of LFE setting is set to its default of 120Hz. The Low Pass dial of both is turn all the way to the right (160Hz) and the volume dial is set at the 12 o'clock position. I felt I was getting some chatter/chuffing from the subs at high action points in Avengers Infinity War, such as when a ship crashes to the ground. I switched both subs to 180 deg phase and it sounds smoother now. I am still experimenting with the dB adjustment and gain of each subwoofer to fine tune them.

So far, I feel that the Onkyo 787 doesn't have quite the punch as the Pioneer Elite SC-87 I replaced (stupid HDCP 2.2 compliance) but I'm making it work. The 787 is, however, enough to push the Polk OWM5's and 3's ... so I am happy. It just seems to take a little for tinkering to get the sound just how I like it...LOUD and CLEAR.

Thanks again for the help and any other suggestions are very much appreciated and welcomed.

Gus R
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post #11 of 12 Old 11-15-2018, 10:38 AM
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Here's a couple more suggestions...


1. It seems you are limited somewhat by amplifier headroom. You can free up a little more by raising the crossovers a little higher. Try 120 Hz for the 5's and 150 Hz for the 3's. That may give you a couple dB more headroom. Of course, it will increase the amount of signal sent to the subs, and increase the chance that you will be able to "localize" them. To address that:


2. Turn the Low Pass dial on the subs to 120 Hz. This will "cascade" the Low Pass of the receiver and the Low Pass of the subs and give you a steeper slope for the roll off of the subs. You may lose a little bit of bass from the Atmos speakers, but recording engineers don't put much up there anyway because they're aware that most users won't have full-range Atmos speakers.



3. Try plugging the ports of the subs. This may raise their -3 dB point a little, but it will make their roll-off shallower and give you a little more bass extension. It should also reduce/eliminate port chuffing. Just be sure to monitor the subs for distortion and reduce the Master Volume if you begin to hear any signs of distress from the subs.



4. Avoid setting the subwoofers "hot" because that will add to the strain they are exposed to. Us e the SPL meter to set the *combined* output of both subs to 75 dB.



Try any or all of these things and don't be afraid to experiment.



Good luck and enjoy your system.


Craig
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post #12 of 12 Old 11-16-2018, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Here's a couple more suggestions...


1. It seems you are limited somewhat by amplifier headroom. You can free up a little more by raising the crossovers a little higher. Try 120 Hz for the 5's and 150 Hz for the 3's. That may give you a couple dB more headroom. Of course, it will increase the amount of signal sent to the subs, and increase the chance that you will be able to "localize" them. To address that:


2. Turn the Low Pass dial on the subs to 120 Hz. This will "cascade" the Low Pass of the receiver and the Low Pass of the subs and give you a steeper slope for the roll off of the subs. You may lose a little bit of bass from the Atmos speakers, but recording engineers don't put much up there anyway because they're aware that most users won't have full-range Atmos speakers.



3. Try plugging the ports of the subs. This may raise their -3 dB point a little, but it will make their roll-off shallower and give you a little more bass extension. It should also reduce/eliminate port chuffing. Just be sure to monitor the subs for distortion and reduce the Master Volume if you begin to hear any signs of distress from the subs.



4. Avoid setting the subwoofers "hot" because that will add to the strain they are exposed to. Us e the SPL meter to set the *combined* output of both subs to 75 dB.



Try any or all of these things and don't be afraid to experiment.



Good luck and enjoy your system.


Craig
Thanks Craig

I plugged the ports and it immediately removed the chuffing/distortion. I will try to set the dials to 120 and see how that sounds as well. My plan now is to look for a good mid level sub to replace my two PSW10's. The Onkyo TX-NR787 does not separate out the two subs, there is only one setting for "distance". My previous AVR had a SW1 and SW2 setting...this one does not. This is really annoying as one sub is 12ft away and the other is only 5ft/6ft away. I have the distance set to "12ft" which could be another reason the sub closest to me is having distortion issues...maybe?

Either way, I plan to pick up either the Monolith 10 or RSL Speedwoofer. Something in the $500 range to replace the 2 Polks. Thanks for the help Craig. For now, it sounds much better than it did prior to your help.

Gus R
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