Stop me from buying these $5,000 KEF floorstanders! - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 80 Old 11-28-2018, 05:28 PM
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So I was in the same boat. Bought LS50's and thought they were awesome.


Went and listened to R11's and for $3,500 more I was expecting to be blown away and I was not. Where I auditioned them they had them hooked up an a moderately priced and powered amp(125wpc). I thought they got very confused on complicated music.


I also did not care for the look...they had the natural wood finish with the bronze colored drivers. Simple jointed corners and didn't look like a high end speaker to me.



They moved into onto a Mark Levinson amp at 350wpc and they sounded much better and more defined but what I was looking to do was compare them to my Salk HT2TL's.


I went in pretty open minded and set on doing an in home demo but they did not move me the way I was expecting.


Granted they hardly had any hours on them, maybe an hour or so. Room was not the best but I look at the LS50's which would sound incredible if you turned them around and pointed them at the wall


They had pluses and minuses compared to my Salk's but not enough to motivate me to even go through the in home demo process. The bass down low was really odd...I don't how to explain it but it was short and empty.



What did end up happening was he had a set of Revel F228Be's which did blow me away. I tend to focus on voice and highs but they were incredible and the music had so much more body to it.



Got a deal and those will be replacing my current speakers.
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post #32 of 80 Old 11-28-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric_Connelly View Post
So I was in the same boat. Bought LS50's and thought they were awesome.


Went and listened to R11's and for $3,500 more I was expecting to be blown away and I was not. Where I auditioned them they had them hooked up an a moderately priced and powered amp(125wpc). I thought they got very confused on complicated music.
The LS50's are amazing for the size and price, 1 thing I'll say is I don't really judge speakers in demo rooms anymore, the 1st time I heard the LS50's I honestly thought they sounded like crap but I ended up trying them at home because of all of the praise and I'm glad I did because I love them. The only speakers that have ever really wowed me in a showroom were the Salon 2's.

Another thing, looking at the measurements of the new R series, it seems as you go bigger from the R3 to R11, they measure with a bit more of a downward slope from bass to treble, meaning they get more and more laid back as you go to the bigger towers. Since you seem to enjoy the highs of the LS50, you might give the R3 a listen, they seem to be the most neutral of the entire new R series based on their power response in the whitepaper.
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post #33 of 80 Old 11-28-2018, 11:21 PM
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I say K.I.S.S.

I listened to the LS50W in a nice sized room at the AXPONA audio show. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...8695-jpg.6050/
I very well remember the Celestial Echo track by Malia & Boris Blank and how full the sound was at the back of the room. Why not go with another set mated with one or two HSU ULS-15, Rythmik, or Kef R400b subs? You'll have a simplified big sounding setup that you already know you'll love for much less money $3K-$4K....given a preamp, amp, Dac, connecting wires, & cables wont be needed.

The LS50W & sub is the direction I hope to take someday in my living room.
Problem with coaxials is the IMD distortion due to the movement of the mids diffracting the tweeter output, this is why 3-ways is preferred for coaxials with a crossover ideally somewhere > 300Hz to minimize excursion of the mids. And IMD distortion is probably the type that humans are most sensitive to.

I would avoid it unless you are mainly just watching TV or don't require high output levels or are sitting relatively close. Or look at the R3/R300 models.
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post #34 of 80 Old 11-28-2018, 11:34 PM
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Problem with coaxials is the IMD distortion due to the movement of the mids diffracting the tweeter output, this is why 3-ways is preferred for coaxials with a crossover ideally somewhere > 300Hz to minimize excursion of the mids. And IMD distortion is probably the type that humans are most sensitive to.

I would avoid it unless you are mainly just watching TV or don't require high output levels or are sitting relatively close. Or look at the R3/R300 models.
Distortion of any kind is not something I've ever seen associated with any review or measurements of the LS50 or R100 done by SoundStage. Nor have I seen it mentioned by anyone regarding the cheaper Q100, Q300, Q150, or Q350.

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post #35 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 06:46 AM
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Problem with coaxials is the IMD distortion due to the movement of the mids diffracting the tweeter output, this is why 3-ways is preferred for coaxials with a crossover ideally somewhere > 300Hz to minimize excursion of the mids. And IMD distortion is probably the type that humans are most sensitive to.

I would avoid it unless you are mainly just watching TV or don't require high output levels or are sitting relatively close. Or look at the R3/R300 models.
Yes, everyone knows that a 2-way coaxial is one of the hardest speakers to engineer. Additionally, everyone knows that a 3-way done right can over come some of the limitations of a 2-way. KEF, has done both for ages and the LS50 derives from all of the previous R&D on monitors and the Blade.

The LS50 Wireless is a remarkable achievement for a small bookshelf 2-way active system that can play pretty clean past moderate levels. One can ALWAYS spend more money on the latest and greatest 3-way speaker. However, someone that wants a simplified setup for clutter free living spaces, not to mention WAF, an all-in-one active solution is becoming a popular option. Many are companies are offering them now. Yes, KEF is trying to capture some of the non-Audiophile streaming consumers out there however, there are some in the 1% audiophile community that want simplified great sounding rigs that don't take over a room. Some have already purchased the LS50 and LS50 wireless for duty outside of near-field listening. LS50's are in main rigs and multi channel dynamic theater systems. Speaker topology talk, 2-way distortion talk aside, the speakers are performers and sound good! I'm sure some of these owner could and would go with 3-way speakers if they wanted.

OTOH, the OP could very well go out and get the R11 towers powered by a couple of huge and powerful monoblocks and even add in a couple of Rythmik Audio F15HP 15" subs. This would be more in line with his original post and thinking. Plus, the system will provide enough sound for even the largest rooms in a typical 2000-3500 sq ft home. However, he asked to be stopped from doing so and wants to keep the space less cluttered with audio gear. The R3 and a sub will get him the new sound and tech he is chasing and will mate well with a small space saving integrated amp like the Creek Audio, Peachtree, Rega, Hegel, Naim, Belles, Jolida, Emerald Physics, Nuprime, Parasound, Vincent Audio, Devialet, etc. The LS50 Wireless + sub will drive the cost, and space saving down even further. Only the OP knows what will work.

Its nice to have so many option in 2018.
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post #36 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 07:56 AM
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Does anyone know of any study, article, review or test where they compare a full tower to a matching Bookshelf, small sub combo from the same company?
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post #37 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 09:08 AM
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Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, the LS50 has a trick up its sleeve where there is a bass hump on the lower registers, a dip on the mids. This response makes the LS50 sound bigger.
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post #38 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Does anyone know of any study, article, review or test where they compare a full tower to a matching Bookshelf, small sub combo from the same company?
No but starting on page 18 of this link they test and measure tower and bookshelf versions of the same line of speakers from Canton, Dynaudio, Q Acoustics, Rossi Fiorentino (never heard of them on AVS), and Wharfedale.

https://stereo-magazine.com/flipview...zine-3-2016-3/
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post #39 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 10:43 AM
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Go for the Kef speakers. I have 9 Kef Q and R series speakers and love the sound. I guarantee you, you’ll love the sound of your R11’s.
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post #40 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Does anyone know of any study, article, review or test where they compare a full tower to a matching Bookshelf, small sub combo from the same company?
I believe Harman did it as well. Might want to ask Dr Toole in the Revel thread.

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post #41 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 10:56 AM
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No but starting on page 18 of this link they test and measure tower and bookshelf versions of the same line of speakers from Canton, Dynaudio, Q Acoustics, Rossi Fiorentino (never heard of them on AVS), and Wharfedale.

https://stereo-magazine.com/flipview...zine-3-2016-3/
Funny the Bookshelf version of all those speakers get a higher SQ Score than the Tower. I will need to read in more detail but to me is seems towers play louder but bookshelves sound better.
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post #42 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 11:01 AM
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Funny the Bookshelf version of all those speakers get a higher SQ Score than the Tower. I will need to read in more detail but to me is seems towers play louder but bookshelves sound better.
Food for thought as some of the dynamic limitations of the bookshelves mentioned would be tempered with a sub in play...and the combo would play lower than the towers alone.

It is an interesting read.

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post #43 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 11:07 AM
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Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, the LS50 has a trick up its sleeve where there is a bass hump on the lower registers, a dip on the mids. This response makes the LS50 sound bigger.
They sure do. When I listened to them at the audio show in Chicago, I swear they sounded like towers playing the Celestial Echo track by Malia & Boris Blank. I stayed in that room for a bit listening and asking questions. The speakers were impressive which is saying a lot when at an audio show like AXPONA that has systems all the way up to the $500K range. There is no way a 5" coaxial bookshelf should be impressive after listening to several of the high buck system of the weekend, but they were!

Look at the size of this room. I listened to the speakers in several seats and also at the back of the room. They were clear and didn't seem to strain to me at all. The Engineering and DSP was doing its job. IMO, I think they might work well in my 14' x 15' living room mated with a 10" or 12" sub.



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post #44 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 11:46 AM
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Does anyone know of any study, article, review or test where they compare a full tower to a matching Bookshelf, small sub combo from the same company?
I've seen plenty of professional (and amateur for that matter) bookshelf vs floorstander comparisons. But not sub/sat vs tower. Forums like this one are your best bet for that kind of thing.
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post #45 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 12:04 PM
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Funny the Bookshelf version of all those speakers get a higher SQ Score than the Tower. I will need to read in more detail but to me is seems towers play louder but bookshelves sound better.
I looked to see what happens to the dynamic power of a bookshelf when relieved of frequencies below 80hz or so now handled by a sub. Apparently the improvement in sound pressure level headroom is a massive +6db or twice the sound pressure loudness potential.

"Win 1. Since you are now not putting in 20 Hertz 80 Hertz into the mains you are not using up the available low frequency cone movement with bass, so the low frequency cone in your main speaker is able to play its higher frequencies (up to it’s crossover point) much more cleanly.

You get an apparent 6dB or more dynamic range. You can play your system louder, and also with less compression distortion in the low frequency driver when you are having that Saturday night dance party and you’re playing urban bass technopop at 110 dB. Really.

Win 2. Since you are not putting bass into that same driver you are not Doppler modulating everything between 80 and 600, or whatever the next crossover point is. This means cleaner mids. By far.

Win 3. You are not sucking current out of your main power amp at low frequencies, so there is more current reserve to play those highs louder.

Win 4. Since the cones are not moving as far at the low frequencies the driver itself is not generating as much back EMF therefore the damping factor and all of its issues are greatly negated.

And you do not need to run silver plated cold water pipes to your mains as speaker wires because there is far less current draw by the speakers.

Win 5. Frequencies below 80 are now not causing transient intermodulation distortion with the higher frequencies (and vice versa) in your power amp. Cleaner still."


https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...udio-Subwoofer

For those interested in more info about dbs and what +6db means.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

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post #46 of 80 Old 11-29-2018, 12:53 PM
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...

<A bunch of cool stuff...>

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Great post/find/links.
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post #47 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I found a local dealer that is bringing in the KEF R7's. He should have them available for auditioning next week. In the meantime I'm going to try and find a Revel dealer to see what all this hype is about.

Also, I may have to get R3's in addition the R11's. You know, for the TV!
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post #48 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 02:33 AM
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I found a local dealer that is bringing in the KEF R7's. He should have them available for auditioning next week. In the meantime I'm going to try and find a Revel dealer to see what all this hype is about.



Also, I may have to get R3's in addition the R11's. You know, for the TV!

Heh have you seen JTR towers? I forgot if anyone has mentioned those but I’m going to see if I can try and get you to not buy those Kefs last minute. You know, for fun

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #49 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 03:08 AM
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I found a local dealer that is bringing in the KEF R7's. He should have them available for auditioning next week. In the meantime I'm going to try and find a Revel dealer to see what all this hype is about.

Also, I may have to get R3's in addition the R11's. You know, for the TV!
LOL...you go do that. I don't know if you have a spouse, but I do and if I did that I'd be headed to court proceedings and in need of both a new home and medical care.

I still want to though.

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post #50 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Heh have you seen JTR towers? I forgot if anyone has mentioned those but I’m going to see if I can try and get you to not buy those Kefs last minute. You know, for fun
I'm aware of JTR, I will totally put those in my theater =)
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post #51 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 06:12 AM
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OP, your pictures just loaded for me and after seeing your room the R11's in Gloss white would be perfect for your room.


And I'm just going to leave this here. I don't know how far you are away from this pair.
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post #52 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 07:58 AM
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In the meantime I'm going to try and find a Revel dealer to see what all this hype is about.

Also, I may have to get R3's in addition the R11's. You know, for the TV!
Revels are very good, you should definitely audition them as well. I think the new R series is going to be the one to beat though, they use a similar measurement format as Revel and measure just as well as the Performa3 line with the added benefits of the UniQ driver.
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post #53 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 08:46 AM
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OP, your pictures just loaded for me and after seeing your room the R11's in Gloss white would be perfect for your room.


And I'm just going to leave this here. I don't know how far you are away from this pair.
Interesting tweeter height; the photo makes is look lower than normal tweeter height when seated.

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post #54 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 08:51 AM
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Revels are very good, you should definitely audition them as well. I think the new R series is going to be the one to beat though, they use a similar measurement format as Revel and measure just as well as the Performa3 line with the added benefits of the UniQ driver.
Crutchfield, with $75/pair returns on Towers, carries Revel but I don't see the R series there but they do have the Performa3s.

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post #55 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 09:28 AM
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Interesting tweeter height; the photo makes is look lower than normal tweeter height when seated.
I have always found tweeter heights on speakers too low and I always find that bookshelf speakers on the same company's stand to be at a more ideal height (which is always higher).
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post #56 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Lazarynth View Post
I found a local dealer that is bringing in the KEF R7's. He should have them available for auditioning next week. In the meantime I'm going to try and find a Revel dealer to see what all this hype is about.

Also, I may have to get R3's in addition the R11's. You know, for the TV!
Not to derail your search but I would definitely check out the Revel Performa3 series.
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post #57 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
OP, your pictures just loaded for me and after seeing your room the R11's in Gloss white would be perfect for your room.


And I'm just going to leave this here. I don't know how far you are away from this pair.
That photo's perspective is deceptive. The R11 tweeters and the speaker itself is taller than you might think as compared to the fellow in the photo.

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post #58 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 01:56 PM
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That photo's perspective is deceptive. The R11 tweeters and the speaker itself is taller than you might think as compared to the fellow in the photo.
....but no doubt the R3's on KEF stands puts the tweeter a good 6"/150mm or more higher.
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post #59 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 02:43 PM
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Every picture that I have seen has the tweeters at the wife's ear height when she is on her knees if you were standing up. Too low for ear height if you are sitting in a regular chair.
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post #60 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 03:54 PM
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The height of the tweeter on a KEF Uni-Q equipped speaker is of little concern because of the dispersion characteristics. Much ado about nothing.

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