Stop me from buying these $5,000 KEF floorstanders! - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 27Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 80 Old 11-30-2018, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Lazarynth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
OP, your pictures just loaded for me and after seeing your room the R11's in Gloss white would be perfect for your room.


Working on different designs for the room atm. White could look good though.




Last edited by Lazarynth; 11-30-2018 at 05:57 PM.
Lazarynth is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 80 Old 12-01-2018, 04:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
William's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,432
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarynth View Post
Working on different designs for the room atm. White could look good though....
Looks like they are a little close together and toed in too much (may need to align straight because of sq room). Also while no one has commented your room in square and that is the worst dimension for SQ (loading and mods). Of course there is probably not much you can do about it but aligning them with NO toe in might help mitigate your square room. Also will hold comment on the TV over fireplace.

Do love the white.
William is offline  
post #63 of 80 Old 12-01-2018, 04:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KenM10759's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Central MA USA
Posts: 5,710
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3437 Post(s)
Liked: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post
Looks like they are a little close together and toed in too much (may need to align straight because of sq room). Also while no one has commented your room in square and that is the worst dimension for SQ (loading and mods). Of course there is probably not much you can do about it but aligning them with NO toe in might help mitigate your square room. Also will hold comment on the TV over fireplace.

Do love the white.
That's just a computer-generated mock-up with the speaker images just dropped in. I doubt they'd look exactly like that nor be positioned in that manner.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
KenM10759 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 80 Old 12-01-2018, 04:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
William's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,432
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
That's just a computer-generated mock-up with the speaker images just dropped in. I doubt they'd look exactly like that nor be positioned in that manner.
Well aware it is a mockup. However LOOK at his original post/placement pic and you will see the speaker placement is in the center of the room and close together near the fireplace just like in the mock up.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2018-12-01 at 7.21.36 AM.png
Views:	54
Size:	39.5 KB
ID:	2489600  
William is offline  
post #65 of 80 Old 12-17-2018, 07:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
WLDock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Please spread those speakers out and get them away from the walls 1-2 feet. Also, make sure that the TV is not at neck breaking levels above the fireplace. If you must mount it there get a low profile fireplace.


HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR- Anthem MRX 300 | Media Player - Fire TV Box 2nd Gen | Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - PS3-320GB / Xbox One
Speakers - Main - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR965 | Center - Boston Acoustics Lynnfield VR920 | Rear - Artison Portrait LRS
| Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - O Audio BASH 500
WLDock is offline  
post #66 of 80 Old 12-17-2018, 02:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KenM10759's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Central MA USA
Posts: 5,710
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3437 Post(s)
Liked: 1916
...And...no need to toe-in the KEF speakers. They actually image better with little or no toe-in.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
KenM10759 is offline  
post #67 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 04:59 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
...And...no need to toe-in the KEF speakers. They actually image better with little or no toe-in.
In a desk environment, do you toe-in the KEF Speakers? I have LS50W that angled towards me, and they're on IsoAperta stands.

Since I'm getting KEF speakers for the living room, in a straight environment, I assume just leave them straight facing the sofa?

Much like the OP, am debating the R900, R11, as well as LS50-W paired with the r400b. I just bought an amp though :/
Matrix8086 is offline  
post #68 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 07:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KenM10759's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Central MA USA
Posts: 5,710
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3437 Post(s)
Liked: 1916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrix8086 View Post
In a desk environment, do you toe-in the KEF Speakers? I have LS50W that angled towards me, and they're on IsoAperta stands.

Since I'm getting KEF speakers for the living room, in a straight environment, I assume just leave them straight facing the sofa?

Much like the OP, am debating the R900, R11, as well as LS50-W paired with the r400b. I just bought an amp though :/
My LS50's on the desktop have not been toed-in at all. I tried it, but the stereo imaging was too confined and not as much depth. A little brighter on the tweeters too, though not objectionable. They will soon be sitting on a pair of KEF speaker stands that were on sale for $149 a pair.


In my living room the R500's are also straight-on, no toe-in. Same reasons. I suggest it's easy for you to just try a few different positions and orientations of the speakers and give a good listen to find what works best for YOU.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
KenM10759 is offline  
post #69 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 10:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Espo77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Delmarva Peninsula, Maryland
Posts: 3,305
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 516 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post
Looks like they are a little close together and toed in too much (may need to align straight because of sq room). Also while no one has commented your room in square and that is the worst dimension for SQ (loading and mods). Of course there is probably not much you can do about it but aligning them with NO toe in might help mitigate your square room. Also will hold comment on the TV over fireplace.

Do love the white.



The toe in almost always brings the music into focus for me. In square and rectangular rooms, you can reduce the side wall reflections by toeing in.

Agreed that square rooms can be awful to music! In a square room, placing the system on a diagonal works pretty good...TV in corner and speakers to either side etc..

However, if you have four walls and knock down the one that Leeds to another room, it’s no longer square, but more like a rectangle.

Espo77's living room equipment: RECEIVER: Yamaha RX-A3030- SPEAKERS: Boston Acoustics M350, M25 center, surrounds, and front heights-
BLU-RAY: Oppo BDP103D- SUBWOOFER: HSU VTF-15H MK2- dedicated circuits for A/V- TV: Vizio P55C-1
Auralex Acoustics LENRD - Auralex Acoustics Roominator
Espo77 is offline  
post #70 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 11:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
airgas1998's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 42 2 30 degs N 92 54 52 degs W
Posts: 2,486
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 172
is it to much to ask for "pro" reviews of the r11...I want to blow 5k NOW... that and crutchfield doesn't even have them in only kef direct, and BB

Habit Forming....Wallet Burning Hobby....55" Oled Lg C7 55" Samsung B8500 Fald Channel Master Dvr+ Onkyo RZ900 avr Crown xls 2002 2ch amp Samsung K8500 UBR player Svs Ultra Towers/Center, Svs Satellite Surrounds Svs Pb-13 Ultra Sub Bluesound Node 2I 2nd zone room: polk lsim 703's
airgas1998 is offline  
post #71 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 12:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Espo77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Delmarva Peninsula, Maryland
Posts: 3,305
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 516 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post
is it to much to ask for "pro" reviews of the r11...I want to blow 5k NOW... that and crutchfield doesn't even have them in only kef direct, and BB
Looks like KEF Direct.
Better hurry, there’s a storm coming!

Espo77's living room equipment: RECEIVER: Yamaha RX-A3030- SPEAKERS: Boston Acoustics M350, M25 center, surrounds, and front heights-
BLU-RAY: Oppo BDP103D- SUBWOOFER: HSU VTF-15H MK2- dedicated circuits for A/V- TV: Vizio P55C-1
Auralex Acoustics LENRD - Auralex Acoustics Roominator
Espo77 is offline  
post #72 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 12:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trilkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
Posts: 1,212
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Ill stop you, that room is never going to make a 5000$/$2500 speaker sound better then a 500-1000$ speaker. I wouldnt even bother with the disappointment. You could throw a set of JBL LSR308's in there and get the same performance.

What acoustic treatments do you have? If thats literally the room it looks like none. I have nothing against KEF, I just have alot against $5000 speakers being anything more then a company taking peoples money for a product that might be worth half that. Unless you just want to tell people you have $5000 speakers they dont do anything for me. You can probably get better sound for cheaper.

Not being negative, but you said to stop you from buying them ;-)

Its a nice house btw if thats yours. But those walls, the windows, nothing about it is good for sound. Its your money obviously and I understand that the finish of the KEF's and speaker lay out with the grill off looks good...so the question you need to ask if if you feel like spending that much money on a pretty cabinet? Or do you think the sound is actually going to be better because you are paying more money?
e_honda and airgas1998 like this.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -

Last edited by trilkb; 01-17-2019 at 12:37 PM.
trilkb is offline  
post #73 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 12:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
airgas1998's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 42 2 30 degs N 92 54 52 degs W
Posts: 2,486
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
Ill stop you, that room is never going to make a 5000$ speaker sound better then a 500-1000$ speaker. I wouldnt even bother with the disappointment. You could throw a set of JBL LSR308's in there and get the same performance.

What acoustic treatments do you have? If thats literally the room it looks like none. I have nothing against KEF, I just have alot against $5000 speakers being anything more then a company taking peoples money for a product that might be worth half that. Unless you just want to tell people you have $5000 speakers they dont do anything for me. You can probably get better sound for cheaper.

Not being negative, but you said to stop you from buying them ;-)
totally agree.... very reflective based on pic, and my god 18'+ ceilings. better go jtr/seaton if you ask me. i thought i had a big area (800sgft) to fill...

Habit Forming....Wallet Burning Hobby....55" Oled Lg C7 55" Samsung B8500 Fald Channel Master Dvr+ Onkyo RZ900 avr Crown xls 2002 2ch amp Samsung K8500 UBR player Svs Ultra Towers/Center, Svs Satellite Surrounds Svs Pb-13 Ultra Sub Bluesound Node 2I 2nd zone room: polk lsim 703's
airgas1998 is offline  
post #74 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 02:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,324
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 885 Post(s)
Liked: 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
Ill stop you, that room is never going to make a 5000$/$2500 speaker sound better then a 500-1000$ speaker. I wouldnt even bother with the disappointment. You could throw a set of JBL LSR308's in there and get the same performance.

What acoustic treatments do you have? If thats literally the room it looks like none. I have nothing against KEF, I just have alot against $5000 speakers being anything more then a company taking peoples money for a product that might be worth half that. Unless you just want to tell people you have $5000 speakers they dont do anything for me. You can probably get better sound for cheaper.

Not being negative, but you said to stop you from buying them ;-)

Its a nice house btw if thats yours. But those walls, the windows, nothing about it is good for sound. Its your money obviously and I understand that the finish of the KEF's and speaker lay out with the grill off looks good...so the question you need to ask if if you feel like spending that much money on a pretty cabinet? Or do you think the sound is actually going to be better because you are paying more money?
What are you basing your opinion on? I only ask because there are a few studies I've seen that show for music listening, reflections are preferred. There are many whitepapers and discussions on this in Floyd Toole's latest book Sound Reproduction. All rooms need EQ in the bass frequencies under the transition frequency but there is really no need for room treatments beyond the typical furniture, rugs, drapes that are likely to be in the room once it's occupied.

The sound quality is going to be excellent based on the measurements that are available in the new R series whitepaper since they have neutral response with an ideal power response. In a big room like that subs will still make the system that much better but I haven't seen any evidence that room treatments are preferred over none at all.
aarons915 is online now  
post #75 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 05:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trilkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
Posts: 1,212
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Yes, sound needs reflections, but there's a reason acoustic panels exist. Kef did not build that speaker, then just throw it in a room with no treatments to measure it. You have many reflection points in a room. There is such a thing as over treating the room as well which will also change the sound, in a bad way. Almost any room you've heard speakers in, be it best buy magnolia or a av dealer, has had the room acoustically treated.

I'm pretty much just saying it's better to spend less on speakers and put the rest into acoustic panels. You can throw $500 speakers into a properly treated room and get better results then $2500 speakers in a untreated room.


I don't claim to be an expert but there's 2 things I know, cars and audio lol. I got f's in school, by the handful, but audio interests me and I retain most things I learn about it. If you can clap in that room and hear it reverberate (I'd bet on it), you won't get close to the potential of those speakers. Thats a basic test for testing acoustics of the room. Maybe low volumes you'll be ok, maybe you won't notice high volume fatigue. Fatigue is caused by our brain interpreting what the speakers should sound like. Filling in nulls and trying to reduce the peaks. Acoustic panels absorb the reflections that our brains have to compensate for. So you also help yourself and everyone else with the volume causing fatigue.

There's calculators for wall coverage percentages, also how to figure out reflection points. This is because like you said, sound needs reflection. Too much or too little is the problem. If you have 5k, go look at ats solutions website and research acoustic panels and reflection points.

I've had someone tell me my $500 LCR and $1000 8 12 sub setup sounds better to or as good as their family members setup which consist of high end audiophile brands that I dream about and frankly I'm jealous of because it cost more then my house. He may have acoustic drywall at most, the very best dirac EQ/DSP to back it up. Placement matters first and foremost, acoustic treatments matter at a close 2nd. I think after those two are met, you will hear the differences much better between 5k and 500 dollar speakers.

Let's just say, there's a better way to spend 5k in my mind.
duckymomo likes this.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
trilkb is offline  
post #76 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 06:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trilkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
Posts: 1,212
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked: 336
https://youtu.be/JF10c7-stWI

That is a very very very exaggerated example of what acoustic treatments can do. Personally I love that video. First off it basically sounds terrible, fatiguing, distorted, speakers sound like garbage right? I'd be pissed.

2nd half, I'll even go on a limb and say it may have been too much treatment (hard to tell)...BUT, now the actual sound of the speaker is starting to show. The mids, the highs. Voices are coherent, the 2nd voice is clearer.

The volume, loud, yes. But before the treatment do you think it would've mattered if he had $200 or $1k speakers?

Low volumes probably have more of a difference with reflections, but who buys high dollar speakers and never sees what they can really do?

A civic and a Mercedes sl v8 twin turbo can both go 0 to 60 in rush hour traffic. Given the right environment that v8 twin turbo is going to be the more enjoyable, but you have to GIVE it the right environment... otherwise why not just drive the civic and save 100k? Unless all you want to do is say you own a v8 twin turbo Amg.

Damn, I've got too much time on my hands.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -

Last edited by trilkb; 01-17-2019 at 06:06 PM.
trilkb is offline  
post #77 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 07:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,324
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 885 Post(s)
Liked: 696
The Kefs are measured in an anechoic chamber with zero reflections, but that's not how you should listen in a room. Dr. Toole talks about how some people do prefer to be in more of the direct sound field but the majority prefer reflections because it adds spaciousness and sounds more like live music. He also talks about a study where 3 or 4 speakers are blind tested in different rooms, the preference ratings changed depending on the room acoustics but the preferences of the speakers never did, meaning the best speakers were still preferred regardless of room. There really is a ton of good info and studies with all things audio.


Personally, if I preferred very few reflections, I'd just buy some nice headphones and save a boatload of money. Speakers that are well behaved off-axis, like the new KEF R series, don't need to absorb reflections, it will most likely make them sound worse. Speakers that have terrible off-axis response may sound better with room treatment but in that case why not just buy better speakers? It's fine if people personally prefer room treatments but I'm just saying the science disagrees.

Edit: I see you're in Cincinnati too, nice home theater. I also wanted to say that for a dedicated home theater, I have read that room treatments aren't bad because the ambience is built into the surround mix so the reflections might muddy those surround effects. I haven't personally experienced that in my room but I listen to music mostly and home theater is secondary for me. So in your case, room treatments could be fine but it looks like the OP is looking more for a 2 channel setup so I would think it's mostly a music setup where I would think reflections would be beneficial.

Last edited by aarons915; 01-17-2019 at 07:09 PM.
aarons915 is online now  
post #78 of 80 Old 01-17-2019, 07:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post
The toe in almost always brings the music into focus for me. In square and rectangular rooms, you can reduce the side wall reflections by toeing in.

Agreed that square rooms can be awful to music! In a square room, placing the system on a diagonal works pretty good...TV in corner and speakers to either side etc..

However, if you have four walls and knock down the one that Leeds to another room, it’s no longer square, but more like a rectangle.
Toe in is meant for speakers that have limited dispersion. If you have speakers with uniform horizontal dispersion you don't need to toe in at all. Even stereophile recommended listening to Kefs LS50 with the speakers pointed away from the ears.
KenM10759 likes this.
driedmango is offline  
post #79 of 80 Old 01-18-2019, 06:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,337
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 858 Post(s)
Liked: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
Toe in is meant for speakers that have limited dispersion. If you have speakers with uniform horizontal dispersion you don't need to toe in at all. Even stereophile recommended listening to Kefs LS50 with the speakers pointed away from the ears.
Toe in has other useful applications. Basically, you aim the left speaker slightly to the right of the MLP and right speaker to the left. That way seats off-center aren't getting blasted by the speaker directly in front of them, and they get better sound from the speaker that's furthest from them. It's been discussed quite a bit, but I can't remember the thread. I find it very effective when the speakers are fairly close to the seats.

Lyngdorf MP-50 | Yamaha MX-A5200 | Ascend Sierra Towers | Ascend Sierra Horizon | Ascend Sierra Lunas | Ascend HTM-200SE | SVS SB-13 x4
duckymomo is offline  
post #80 of 80 Old 01-18-2019, 06:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3592 Post(s)
Liked: 2027
if you measure the speakers with rew, you can decide from results what you want. my best results werent with toe in or toe out or straight ahead. they were one speaker at 5 degree toe in and other speaker about 10 degree in.
Espo77 likes this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off