Bi-Amping Benefits Got a used Power Amp - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
You clearly don't understand the difference between active and passive biamping.



What the OP is asking about is passive biamping, which is next to useless.



Active is a very different thing. Removing the passive xovers from a commercial speaker, eg some Revel model and substituting it with multiple amplifiers and an active (line level) xover can make some improvements and is probably not worthwhile for most people. However, correctly designed (from scratch) active speakers are typically far superior to equivalent passive units; the models I mentioned before for example.


The speaker still has a crossover in it. I guess you can magically make that go away.


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post #32 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
The speaker still has a crossover in it. I guess you can magically make that go away.


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If the design is an "active" design, the passive crossover magically goes away and is replaced with an "active" crossover, which can, and should, be a superior design.

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #33 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:04 AM
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Bi-Amping Benefits Got a used Power Amp

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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
If the design is an "active" design, the passive crossover magically goes away and is replaced with an "active" crossover, which can, and should, be a superior design.


Yeah, but most speakers are not. You would have to physically modify the speaker, which is a redesign of the speaker.

OP’s speaker is a passive speaker.


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post #34 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:05 AM
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Yeah, but most speakers are not. You would have to physically modify the speaker, which is a redesign of the speaker.


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How much do you know about crossovers, either active or passive?

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #35 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
The speaker still has a crossover in it. I guess you can magically make that go away.
You're still not understanding the subject. To passively biamp, all you need to do is remove the biwire bridge and use one poweramp with full range signal to each section of the xover - there is no line level active xover involved. Waste of time, effort and money. No sonic benefits. Same for taking a passive speaker (ie normal speaker with internal xover driven by a single amp channel) and making it active - but I explained that in the last post.

I've been designing and building active speakers for both home and sound reinforcement for 30 years so I know more than a little on the subject.

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post #36 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
You're still not understanding the subject. To passively biamp, all you need to do is remove the biwire bridge and use one poweramp with full range signal to each section of the xover - there is no line level active xover involved. Waste of time, effort and money. No sonic benefits. Same for taking a passive speaker (ie normal speaker with internal xover driven by a single amp channel) and making it active - but I explained that in the last post.

I've been designing and building active speakers for both home and sound reinforcement for 30 years so I know more than a little on the subject.


OP’ speakers are passive speakers.


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post #37 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
How much do you know about crossovers, either active or passive?
Obviously nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
OP’ speakers are passive speakers.
Well, duh!
Maybe actually read, and attempt to understand a post before quoting it in reply.


Once again....



Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
To passively biamp, all you need to do is remove the biwire bridge and use one poweramp with full range signal to each section of the xover - there is no line level active xover involved. Waste of time, effort and money. No sonic benefits.
Do you need pictures?

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post #38 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Bi-amping does nothing.


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Let me fix your post for you...


Quote:
Passive Bi-amping does nothing.

On the other hand, Active Bi-amping is a useful and beneficial upgrade to a passive design. However, it requires a redesign and modification of the speaker.

There, now your post is correct.



You're welcome.

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post #39 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Obviously nothing.

Well, duh!
Maybe actually read, and attempt to understand a post before quoting it in reply.


Once again....



Do you need pictures?


Um, isn’t OP’s topic about OP’s speakers? Maybe attempt to understand his needs.


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post #40 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 11:37 AM
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Too much words from the last few pages and it seems we're not on the same page.
So I hope pictures will be easier to understand.

Speakers with passive crossover hence the name "passive speakers".
This is the kind of speakers that OP has.
Most if not all speakers mentioned in here is passive speakers.
Emo, Chane, Elac, B&W, SF, Canton, etc are all passive speakers.
|---------------------------|
| |-- tweeter |
External Amplifier ------- | --- Xover --| |
| |-- midrange|
|---------------------------|
With this kind of speakers, bi-wiring is wasting time. Bi-amping (keynote: passive bi-amping) is the marketing gimmick.


Speakers with active crossover hence the name "active speakers"
|------------------------------------------|
| |---- amp ------ tweeter |
| --- Xover --| |
| |---- amp ------ midrange|
|------------------------------------------|
With this kind of speakers, bi-amping (keynote: active bi-amping) will be an advantage.
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post #41 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 11:38 AM
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Oh, I hate that.
I drew up nicely but when posting, it deletes all the white space.
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post #42 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Um, isn’t OP’s topic about OP’s speakers? Maybe attempt to understand his needs.
Nice attempt at diversion, but I do understand and have explained it more than once. It's you that doesn't understand.

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post #43 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Passive biamping does nothing. Active biamping is a different story.
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Why would it? If you have head room you have head room. There is a reason why speaker manufactures are moving away from it. It is snake oil just like expensive speaker wire.
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Really don't understand the subject at all do you? Headroom has little to do with it.
You can do far, far, far more with a DSP xover than you could ever possibly do with a passive. Three examples I can think of OTTOMH, all well respected; Kii Three, D&D 8C and Legacy Audio V, none of which can be made passively.

Amplifiers are very cheap these days, so I think you'll find many more manufacturers including active models in their lineup.

Ummm, I am pretty sure you guys are in agreement, no?

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post #44 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 12:42 PM
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Ummm, I am pretty sure you guys are in agreement, no?
No. Well execute active speakers are far from 'snake oil'. JBL M2 anyone? Heck, even an LSR305.

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post #45 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 12:45 PM
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Ummm, I am pretty sure you guys are in agreement, no?
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No.

I think maybe you are.

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post #46 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 02:06 PM
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I think maybe you are.
That's not correct, and you simply repeating yourself will not make it so. I used to generally regard your opinion, but this is quickly changing my mind.

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post #47 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 02:29 PM
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Ummm, I am pretty sure you guys are in agreement, no?


Yep, but he wants to be a prick so I am out.


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post #48 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 02:32 PM
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Yep, but he wants to be a prick so I am out.
No we are not. You will never find a post of mine where I state that active bi/multi amping is snake oil as you repeatedly have. You have provided nothing to back up your claims, and now are resorting to swearing. You have nothing.


Actually learn the subject before posting again.

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post #49 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 02:39 PM
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No we are not. You will never find a post of mine where I state that active bi/multi amping is snake oil as you repeatedly have. You have provided nothing to back up your claims, and now are resorting to swearing. You have nothing.


Actually learn the subject before posting again.


Word. Enjoy your complex.


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post #50 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 03:57 PM
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I summarized Pro's and Con's of Bi-Wire and Bi-Amp [incl. TRUE Bi-Amp] in fol. post, which you should read.

In 1971 I bought my [now Vintage] ALTEC Voice-Of-The-Theater Speakers (15-in Woofer + 800-Hz Horn with Compression Driver) and about 1975 bought a Marantz 250 Amp (125 wpc into 8-ohms) for a Quasi-Bi-Amp configuration, retaining the VOTT's Crossover for the Tweeter driven by a Dynaco 120 Stereo Amp [cuz minimal if any improvement with Active Filter] and built my own DIY L-C Low Pass Filter for the input of the Marantz 250, BYPASSING the ALTEC Crossover for DIRECT DRIVE of the 15-in Woofers [Re=10-ohm, Bass Reflex QB3 Alignment, as per my Thiele/Small Measurements & MANUAL Calculations]....with a 32-Hz Bass Boost "Step Roll" R-C Network added to output of Dynaco PAT-4 Preamp (later Soundcraftsman Preamp had separate Octave Band Filters that did same thing). As expected, there was a noticeable improvement in Bass Transient Response and clarity, so the significant improvement in Damping Factor was indeed working.

Much later I repurposed the ALTEC 15-in Cabinets to act as a pair of Sub-Woofers (only), closing off the Bass-Reflex Vents so it was a Sealed Cabinet [so Critically Damped Transient Response], which provided another improvement in Transient Response, eliminating the "thump-ata-bump" drum echo typical of Bass-Reflex Alighment (see my Loudspeaker Comparison Post).

In 2006 I bought my current AVR, a Pioneer VSX-1015 AVR with PRE-OUTs (120 wpc into 8-ohms, with High Power MOSFET's for better Transient Intermod Distortion), which soon thereafter I configured into another Quasi-Bi-Amp configuration to drive the L/R Speakers. I repurposed an old AVR [100+ wpc] to drive the 10-in L/R [Sealed-Box] Woofers, using a Second Order Filter to Roll-off the High Freqs on it's Input (driven by Pioneer L/R Pre-Outs). And the Pioneer AVR drove a Passive DIY Second Order [700 Hz] Filter connected to the Bi-Polar Planar Magnetic Mid-Range and another higher [7 kHz] Crossover to the Ribbon Super-Tweeter [same Passive Crossover as my DIY Center Speaker]. So with Sub-Woofer turned down, I can clearly hear an improvement in the L/R Woofers when AVR set to "LARGE"....and not as much if set to "SMALL".

So if your AVR does NOT have PRE-IN as well as PRE-OUT capability, you might want to consider trying my Quasi-Bi-Amp Configuration, perhaps using a Commercial Active Low-Pass Filter on the input of the new "Woofer" Amp, so you only need to open up the Speaker Cabinets to disconnect wires from Internal Crossover to the Woofer and rewire so "Woofer" Terminals connect DIRECT to the Woofers.

I'm an Engineer/Scientist who prefers DIY when I can, so I don't have any particular Active Filter or Crossover recommendations. There are several Pro-Audio Active Electronic Filters (mucho $$$'s and typically Rack Mount), but you'll likely find affordable products intended for CAR Applications....which means you'll also need to buy a suitable (voltage & current) Power Supply for it, such as the fol. examples which are inexpensive and loaded with Features you may never use:
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Storm-S.../dp/B001TE1SM0
https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-3-Wa.../dp/B00079LPM6
https://www.amazon.com/Rockville-RX2.../dp/B01LZUQ4OU [Pro-Audio Rack Mount]
https://www.amazon.com/Nady-CX-22SW-.../dp/B0002DUX3Y [Pro-Audio Rack Mount]

Last edited by holl_ands; 12-19-2018 at 04:31 PM.
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post #51 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 05:03 PM
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There are several Pro-Audio Active Electronic Filters (mucho $$$'s and typically Rack Mount)
You're a bit behind the times. A DCX2496 is between $US250 and 300, a dbx Driverack is $400 and depending upon the configuration, ie bare or in case, MiniDSPs are from $100 to 500. There are other options with some research, and there is no need to use car gear.

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post #52 of 56 Old 12-22-2018, 06:05 AM
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Bi-amping does nothing.


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Thank God I finally tried bi-amping my speakers myself after years of believing all the experts that said it did nothing.
It sure did something with my speakers. Something good. By the way.I hate science and believe in Santa Claus,so I never did a double blind listening test.I have used an external power amp on different speakers over a 20 year period and have also used wire other than lamp cord and heard a difference. I know I know. It was just based on the looks of the amp and wires.I'm too stupid to know what I hear plainly. Ignorance is bliss.
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post #53 of 56 Old 12-22-2018, 07:10 PM
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"Active bi-amping" is a very confusing term. Speakers with active crossovers require one channel of amp per driver (or driver group). I'm sure most everyone using the above term understands that. That would be two (bi) if it's a 2-way design, and 3 in a 3-way design and so on.

Since the number of amplifiers is fixed; calling this "bi-amping" seems... misleading or silly. Can we, perhaps, not do that?
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post #54 of 56 Old 12-23-2018, 06:30 AM
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It sure did something with my speakers. Something good.

By the way.I hate science and believe in Santa Claus,so I never did a double blind listening test.
Both parts of the quoted section appear to be plausible, although one part is more likely than the other.
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post #55 of 56 Old 12-23-2018, 06:32 AM
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Both parts of the quoted section appear to be plausible, although one part is more likely than the other.


Do you hate Santa Claus?


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post #56 of 56 Old 12-23-2018, 06:41 AM
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Do you hate Santa Claus?


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I'm cool with Santa. But I'm a bigger fan of the Pumpkin King.

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