Bi-Amping Benefits Got a used Power Amp - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 26Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Bi-Amping Benefits Got a used Power Amp

Hello,

I've got a used Emotiva XPA 5 Gen 1 used from craigslist for $500. I don't know if I got a good deal but I really wanted to try to have a power amp in my system.
I currently have a Marantz SR6012.

I've noticed that when I replaced my Klipsch RP-250f and 450c for the fronts with an Emotiva T1 and C1. The Klipsch played louder at -10db or any listening levels that I'm used to. Audyssey set them both at the same levels except for the center as the C1 is smaller than the 450c.


I plan to bi-amp my L and R and the one remaining channel for the center. Or just used the extra two channels for the surround? I am running a 5.2.4 system. Teac LS-h265 surr, Klipsch RP-140sa Front Heights and Polk owm3 Top middle.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 10:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Bi-amping does nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kini62 likes this.
modenacart is offline  
post #3 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 10:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Blacklightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton,AB Canada
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 998 Post(s)
Liked: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Bi-amping does nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct it will do nothing but I understand that some people think they are wasting power if they do not use the amp.
You will be using 100% of the power supply whether you use 3 or 5 channels.

I would Bi-amp if you already have the wires. If you run your system really loud just power the front 3 with the amp if not power the 5.0.0. Your Marantz should have no problem running the other 6 channels.
eljaycanuck likes this.
Blacklightning is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Bi-amping does nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Correct it will do nothing but I understand that some people think they are wasting power if they do not use the amp.
You will be using 100% of the power supply whether you use 3 or 5 channels.

I would Bi-amp if you already have the wires. If you run your system really loud just power the front 3 with the amp if not power the 5.0.0. Your Marantz should have no problem running the other 6 channels.
I was just confirming as this would be my first external power amp because I got curious as the previous owner that I bought it for recommended me to bi-amp my speakers especially for music.


I am just a casual listener through spotify high quality audio only.


But should have I saved and bought a different power amp? I was looking for the monolith but can't justify to spend that much for now.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #5 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 11:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paopawdecarabao View Post
I was just confirming as this would be my first external power amp because I got curious as the previous owner that I bought it for recommended me to bi-amp my speakers especially for music.





I am just a casual listener through spotify high quality audio only.





But should have I saved and bought a different power amp? I was looking for the monolith but can't justify to spend that much for now.


Your amp is fine. There is no study out there that proves you need an expensive amp, As long as it gets loud enough for you without distortion and has the features you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
eljaycanuck and Lp85253 like this.
modenacart is offline  
post #6 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 12:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1892 Post(s)
Liked: 2656
The XPA-5 is a powerful amp - no need to spend more. Try bi-amping: If you think it works for you, continue with it; otherwise, don't.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #7 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Your amp is fine. There is no study out there that proves you need an expensive amp, As long as it gets loud enough for you without distortion and has the features you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks, I'm just worried because if the amp that I bought was abused then it gets broken. I'm not sure how can it be fixed out of warranty. What I wanted on an amp is to last me longer that I won't be upgrading everytime.

How do I take care of it? Worried about the capacitors failing on me.


Btw, this is pretty heavy I needed help to load and carry it lol
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #8 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
The XPA-5 is a powerful amp - no need to spend more. Try bi-amping: If you think it works for you, continue with it; otherwise, don't.
Probably next time. Kinda lazy right now this holiday season to run new wires. lol I might be spending that time to learn how to use REW and make some room treatments.
eljaycanuck likes this.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #9 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 12:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 9,850
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1892 Post(s)
Liked: 2656
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #10 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
IMO that's time better spent.
I never knew that I would fall in this rabbit hole.
Lp85253 likes this.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #11 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 01:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 987
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 562 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paopawdecarabao View Post
I was just confirming as this would be my first external power amp because I got curious as the previous owner that I bought it for recommended me to bi-amp my speakers especially for music.


I am just a casual listener through spotify high quality audio only.


But should have I saved and bought a different power amp? I was looking for the monolith but can't justify to spend that much for now.
It depends.
He might have some sort of active speakers which implement active crossover circuitry there.

I'm not a fan of any of those, active speakers or bi-amping with passive speakers, left alone bi-wiring.
tinhvo is offline  
post #12 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 02:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
altpensacola's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 156
I have the 1st gen XPA5. That's a good deal.
I also have Klipsch speakers, RF7, and Marantz, 7008. I had the Emotiva before I got the Marantz.
With my previous receiver the Emotiva was silent. With the Marantz I started hearing the gain thru the RF7's horns. I do not hear the gain thru the surrounds or center (RS62, RC64). I was able to resolve the issue with bi-amping the mains. Marantz does the HF, Emotiva does the LF.
The speakers and my ears love it. Reference level music or movies is effortless and the cleanest I have ever heard. No sweat.


I am curious if you do put the Emotive in your similar system what you hear.

Music, more music.
altpensacola is offline  
post #13 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by altpensacola View Post
I have the 1st gen XPA5. That's a good deal.
I also have Klipsch speakers, RF7, and Marantz, 7008. I had the Emotiva before I got the Marantz.
With my previous receiver the Emotiva was silent. With the Marantz I started hearing the gain thru the RF7's horns. I do not hear the gain thru the surrounds or center (RS62, RC64). I was able to resolve the issue with bi-amping the mains. Marantz does the HF, Emotiva does the LF.
The speakers and my ears love it. Reference level music or movies is effortless and the cleanest I have ever heard. No sweat.


I am curious if you do put the Emotive in your similar system what you hear.
I haven't hooked up yet the power amp. I need to move my av stuff into a rack. The amp is so heavy and I am worried that my media console is not gonna support it as it is glass with two thin metal brackes only to support.

Now I need to extend my speaker wires where I will place my AV rack.

Hopefully, I won't have any noise once I hooked it up.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #14 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 04:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
altpensacola's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paopawdecarabao View Post
I haven't hooked up yet the power amp. I need to move my av stuff into a rack. The amp is so heavy and I am worried that my media console is not gonna support it as it is glass with two thin metal brackes only to support.

Now I need to extend my speaker wires where I will place my AV rack.

Hopefully, I won't have any noise once I hooked it up.
If you can test it before moving anything, you might find it makes no difference. You Marantz may be enough. Marantz and Klipsch go good together. But the XPA5's benefit depends on your listening levels, and your room.
If you don't need it then you could probably sell it and make a profit. I've thought about selling mine but since I already have it, It lets the Marantz breath a little bit easier, my speakers do have ohm dips and the Marantz does need a fan for my listening levels.

Music, more music.
altpensacola is offline  
post #15 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by altpensacola View Post
If you can test it before moving anything, you might find it makes no difference. You Marantz may be enough. Marantz and Klipsch go good together. But the XPA5's benefit depends on your listening levels, and your room.
If you don't need it then you could probably sell it and make a profit. I've thought about selling mine but since I already have it, It lets the Marantz breath a little bit easier, my speakers do have ohm dips and the Marantz does need a fan for my listening levels.
The Klipsch was my set that I was using before. I was comparing how loud it gets before I got my Emotiva T1 and C1. With the Emotiva's, volumes a little bit low compared to Klipsch. In my room, and listening levels I know I really don't need an amp. I just wanted to try how it works.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #16 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 05:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,655
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinhvo View Post
It depends.
He might have some sort of active speakers which implement active crossover circuitry there.

I'm not a fan of any of those, active speakers or bi-amping with passive speakers, left alone bi-wiring.
Active crossovers happen *before* the amp in the chain. There's no mistaking an active-crossover from a passive-crossover setup in passive speakers. (in active speakers, since the amp in integrated, it's less obvious).

In an active crossover you *must* multiamp. There's no way around it.
Transmaniacon likes this.
JerryLove is offline  
post #17 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 05:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,655
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paopawdecarabao View Post
Hello,

I've got a used Emotiva XPA 5 Gen 1 used from craigslist for $500. I don't know if I got a good deal but I really wanted to try to have a power amp in my system.
I currently have a Marantz SR6012.

I've noticed that when I replaced my Klipsch RP-250f and 450c for the fronts with an Emotiva T1 and C1. The Klipsch played louder at -10db or any listening levels that I'm used to. Audyssey set them both at the same levels except for the center as the C1 is smaller than the 450c.
You are louder because the gain on the amp is different. This is ignore-able.

Quote:
I plan to bi-amp my L and R and the one remaining channel for the center. Or just used the extra two channels for the surround? I am running a 5.2.4 system. Teac LS-h265 surr, Klipsch RP-140sa Front Heights and Polk owm3 Top middle.
Bi-Amping... using two amps to power a single speaker... is useless. Don't do it.


If you like the Emotiva, run your favorite speakers off it till you run out of channels and then run the remainder off the AVR.
craig john likes this.
JerryLove is offline  
post #18 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 05:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,321
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked: 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Bi-amping does nothing.
Passive biamping does nothing. Active biamping is a different story.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
A9X-308 is offline  
post #19 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 05:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Bi-Amping Benefits Got a used Power Amp

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Passive biamping does nothing. Active biamping is a different story.


Why would it? If you have head room you have head room. There is a reason why speaker manufactures are moving away from it. It is snake oil just like expensive speaker wire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
modenacart is offline  
post #20 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 06:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,321
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked: 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Why would it? If you have head room you have head room. There is a reason why speaker manufactures are moving away from it. It is snake oil just like expensive speaker wire.
Really don't understand the subject at all do you? Headroom has little to do with it.
You can do far, far, far more with a DSP xover than you could ever possibly do with a passive. Three examples I can think of OTTOMH, all well respected; Kii Three, D&D 8C and Legacy Audio V, none of which can be made passively.


Amplifiers are very cheap these days, so I think you'll find many more manufacturers including active models in their lineup.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
A9X-308 is offline  
post #21 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 06:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Really don't understand the subject at all do you? Headroom has little to do with it.
You can do far, far, far more with a DSP xover than you could ever possibly do with a passive. Three examples I can think of OTTOMH, all well respected; Kii Three, D&D 8C and Legacy Audio V, none of which can be made passively.


Amplifiers are very cheap these days, so I think you'll find many more manufacturers including active models in their lineup.


Yeah, ok. I will op decide if he wants to do some real research and not buy the snake oil.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-a...and_tri-amping


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
modenacart is offline  
post #22 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 06:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,321
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked: 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Useless article, except for explaining some very basic principles.
jjackkrash likes this.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
A9X-308 is offline  
post #23 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 06:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Bi-Amping Benefits Got a used Power Amp

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Useless article, except for explaining some very basic principles.


Let him do his research. When I did mine the results were overwhelmingly “it don’t do ****!”
Next we can recommend high end cables because, you know, copper gets better as it gets more expensive. You know, all Cu is not Cu.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
modenacart is offline  
post #24 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 06:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,276
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2223 Post(s)
Liked: 2331
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Why would it? If you have head room you have head room. There is a reason why speaker manufactures are moving away from it. It is snake oil just like expensive speaker wire.
"Moving away from" what, active crossovers or passive bi-amping?

They only real downsides to active crossovers are added system complexity and maybe cost. Active digital crossovers and modern DSP, properly implemented, can be superior to passive crossovers in almost every way. Here are some basics:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications...ossover-basics

https://www.tortugaaudio.com/case-ac...sp-crossovers/

But, ya, passive bi-amping or bi-wiring is mostly a big waste of time.
Transmaniacon and craig john like this.
jjackkrash is offline  
post #25 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 07:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
"Moving away from" what, active crossovers or passive bi-amping?



They only real downsides to active crossovers are added system complexity and maybe cost. Active digital crossovers and modern DSP, properly implemented, can be superior to passive crossovers in almost every way. Here are some basics:



https://www.minidsp.com/applications...ossover-basics



https://www.tortugaaudio.com/case-ac...sp-crossovers/



But, ya, passive bi-amping or bi-wiring is mostly a big waste of time.


As in speakers are moving away from bi capabilities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
modenacart is offline  
post #26 of 56 Old 12-18-2018, 08:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,321
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked: 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
As in speakers are moving away from bi capabilities.
You clearly don't understand the difference between active and passive biamping.



What the OP is asking about is passive biamping, which is next to useless.



Active is a very different thing. Removing the passive xovers from a commercial speaker, eg some Revel model and substituting it with multiple amplifiers and an active (line level) xover can make some improvements and is probably not worthwhile for most people. However, correctly designed (from scratch) active speakers are typically far superior to equivalent passive units; the models I mentioned before for example.
Transmaniacon likes this.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
A9X-308 is offline  
post #27 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 06:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Blacklightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton,AB Canada
Posts: 2,080
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 998 Post(s)
Liked: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paopawdecarabao View Post
I never knew that I would fall in this rabbit hole.
Actual footage of new AVS members

Blacklightning is offline  
post #28 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 06:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bluewizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,749
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2321 Post(s)
Liked: 1533
Passive BI-Amping does SOMETHING, the question is whether that something is worthwhile. Generally not, but if you have the equipment, Bi-Amping is certainly worthwhile for the experience, and then you can make up you own mind.

Myself, out of curiosity, I tried it using two Integrated Amps, one pre-amped to the other. I never heard my speakers sound better, but I think that was not down to Bi-Amping but down to the unique characteristics of the Amps I was using (Mid/High = Onkyo, Bass - Yamaha). As good as it sounded, it was impractical for me, and my regular Amp (Rotel) gets the job done nicely.

So, if you have the equipment, it is most certainly worth trying, and then you can decide for yourself if it works. Knowledge is never wasted.

Steve/bluewizard
bluewizard is offline  
post #29 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Actual footage of new AVS members

One of me is there! lol


I would try bi-amping probably in the future but not now. Still have to improve a lot of things in my audio setup. Room treatments, corrections etc.

Now, probably I will try to invest into a good turntable. Any recommendations? Currently looking at Mofi Ultradeck.
Paopawdecarabao is offline  
post #30 of 56 Old 12-19-2018, 09:16 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1339 Post(s)
Liked: 1577
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Yeah, ok. I will op decide if he wants to do some real research and not buy the snake oil.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-a...and_tri-amping


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From the article you posted:


Quote:
...benefits of bi-amping cannot be realized if passive crossover networks of a speaker system are not removed.[1]

This ^^^ is the key difference between active and passive bi-amping. By replacing the passive crossovers with active crossovers and placing the amps AFTER the crossovers, the speaker designer has much more flexibility to tailor and shape the signals for the particular amp/speaker combination in use. This definitely has the potential for improved speaker *system* design. With DSP, the response can also be tailored to specific listening environments.



Overall, ACTIVE bi-amping can impart significant advantages over passive designs. That said, passive bi-amping offers nothing over standard wiring of passively crossed speakers.



Craig

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System
craig john is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off