How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 100 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2971 of 4372 Old 06-20-2019, 05:39 PM
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I was a professional recording engineer for over 30 years. Most of my work was recording classical music in concert halls. It is an art and a science, the recording and playback medium has a difficult time recreating the live experience, especially when the medium is only two track stereo. I learned dynamic range and spectral balance is nearly impossible to recreate even with the best recording and playback equipment. I wish I was still in the position to be experimenting with surround recording, I think it holds great promise to further the goal of recreating the experience of hearing a live orchestra in a great concert hall.

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post #2972 of 4372 Old 06-20-2019, 06:09 PM
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Did a search and saw some talk of these, but no measurements have been posted. So, here we go: Buchardt S400.



Noteworthy is that the on-axis and listening window are practically identical.

And a host of other measurements at: https://www.buchardtaudio.com/s400-detailed-description

Thoughts on the speakers, and on the measurements, especially the utility of the ones not commonly discussed here?

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post #2973 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
And this raises a question in my mind. Let's say a speaker achieves off-axis sound that is very similar to its on-axis sound. In a room, there is more to consider: the effect of sound bouncing off painted drywall, brick, etc. They don't absorb a lot, but it can change the sound that is reflected to your ears. Just look at the intentionally altered response of upfiring Atmos speakers that attempt to anticipate the effect. This makes me think that perfection is certainly not necessary.
???????

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post #2974 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Did a search and saw some talk of these, but no measurements have been posted. So, here we go: Buchardt S400.

Thoughts on the speakers, and on the measurements, especially the utility of the ones not commonly discussed here?
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com...-Buchardt.html
I think they are doing the right thing

Note the Buchardt speakers are not particularly cheap, do show flaws of a 2-way design and have quite conventional appearance. So I think these are very good speakers, but I am not crazy about them
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post #2975 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 11:40 AM
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???????

I had the same thing happen posting from my phone a few days ago.
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post #2976 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 11:53 AM
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I had the same thing happen posting from my phone a few days ago.
It's screwing up the esses. They are aware of the problem, but obviously haven't been able to fix it yet. I think it has something to do with Android, Chrome and the mobile version of the site.
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post #2977 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SDX-LV View Post
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com...-Buchardt.html
I think they are doing the right thing

Note the Buchardt speakers are not particularly cheap, do show flaws of a 2-way design and have quite conventional appearance. So I think these are very good speakers, but I am not crazy about them
Don't agree on "conventional appearance". I'm not aware of a bookshelf speaker with a waveguide like that, especially not one that is below the woofer, which combine to give it a unique appearance. Not to mention the limited number of speakers with huge bass radiators on the back.

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post #2978 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 02:37 PM
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Don't agree on "conventional appearance". I'm not aware of a bookshelf speaker with a waveguide like that, especially not one that is below the woofer, which combine to give it a unique appearance. Not to mention the limited number of speakers with huge bass radiators on the back.
Well good for you. I see a square box. Then the waveguide is certainly nice. Passive radiator is sweet, but there is no downside to a well designed port either. In fact have you noticed that off-axis measurements of the cheaper, ported Buchardt S300 are not worse?
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post #2979 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 03:16 PM
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Most people do audition many speakers before their purchase. And there are plenty V shaped frequency response and flat frequency response speakers in that mix. And then often they choose Bose or B&W. Why?

Marketing has something to do with it and looks also matter. But it is hard to believe that flat frequency response speaker manufacturers can not hire smart marketing folks or don't know how to create a good looking speaker.
Yes, some people talk like B&W doesn't know what they're doing. I think before they knock B&W they should have a pair in home and listen. Just because a speaker doesn't measure perfectly flat does not mean it won't sound good. The guy who said the Pioneer BS22's measure better and therefore probably sound better than those 703's is out of his mind. I hope he doesn't actually believe that.
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post #2980 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 04:00 PM
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Yes, some people talk like B&W doesn't know what they're doing. I think before they knock B&W they should have a pair in home and listen. Just because a speaker doesn't measure perfectly flat does not mean it won't sound good. The guy who said the Pioneer BS22's measure better and therefore probably sound better than those 703's is out of his mind. I hope he doesn't actually believe that.

I do and can't stand them.
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post #2981 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
Yes, some people talk like B&W doesn't know what they're doing. I think before they knock B&W they should have a pair in home and listen. Just because a speaker doesn't measure perfectly flat does not mean it won't sound good. The guy who said the Pioneer BS22's measure better and therefore probably sound better than those 703's is out of his mind. I hope he doesn't actually believe that.
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I do and can't stand them.
I had 800D2’s, 804D2’s and HTMD2. I liked them, a lot. I upgraded to the Revel Ultima2 line because I like them better. BUT, I could have kept the B&W’s and remained happy.
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post #2982 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 04:29 PM
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In fact have you noticed that off-axis measurements of the cheaper, ported Buchardt S300 are not worse?
They are, according to the published graphs.

And the sound of the two speakers is definitely different, according to those who have heard both.

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post #2983 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 04:33 PM
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I had 800D2’s, 804D2’s and HTMD2. I liked them, a lot. I upgraded to the Revel Ultima2 line because I like them better. BUT, I could have kept the B&W’s and remained happy.

I bought them for a 2nd system in the living room shortly after I bought the MLs for the primary system. I've always had at least two systems in my houses and as many as five, all with different equipment. Keeps my perspective balanced that way and doesn't allow you to get too accustomed to any one system.

In re the B&Ws, I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't listen to them first because, 1) it was at best buy and just about everything sounds terrible there anyway, and 2) I had credit card reward points about to expire so it was use them or lose them.

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post #2984 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 04:52 PM
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It's screwing up the esses. They are aware of the problem, but obviously haven't been able to fix it yet. I think it has something to do with Android, Chrome and the mobile version of the site.
I always use the desktop version on my Android. I use the Samsung web browser. That situation has never happened to me on my Androids.

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post #2985 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 04:58 PM
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I do and can't stand them.
Are these the speakers you bought at Best Buy?
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post #2986 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 05:03 PM
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I always use the desktop version on my Android. I use the Samsung web browser. That situation has never happened to me on my Androids.
It's the mobile version of the forum software the loads unless you force desktop mode. Seems like I'm going to have to do that until they get it fixed.

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post #2987 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 05:08 PM
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Yes, some people talk like B&W doesn't know what they're doing. I think before they knock B&W they should have a pair in home and listen. Just because a speaker doesn't measure perfectly flat does not mean it won't sound good. The guy who said the Pioneer BS22's measure better and therefore probably sound better than those 703's is out of his mind. I hope he doesn't actually believe that.
I feel pretty good getting a friend of mine started with the BS22's for his first set of speakers on an extremely limited budget, crossed with a sub. I'd feel terrible if he could afford $1800 and I had recommended those B&W. So yeah, I'd be way happier with those pioneer crossed to good subs than having way too much money in a set of speakers that measure like garbage.

To each their own though.
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post #2988 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 05:42 PM
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Are these the speakers you bought at Best Buy?

I bought 685 S2s
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post #2989 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 05:48 PM
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I feel pretty good getting a friend of mine started with the BS22's for his first set of speakers on an extremely limited budget, crossed with a sub. I'd feel terrible if he could afford $1800 and I had recommended those B&W. So yeah, I'd be way happier with those pioneer crossed to good subs than having way too much money in a set of speakers that measure like garbage.

To each their own though.
I guess each their own. I do understand the science behind what is being discussed but there does come a point in life, and take that back, only speaking for myself, you have to buy what sounds good to you and not worry about the rest.

I haven’t owned as many speakers as a lot of folks here but I have had my share.

I’ve owned Dynaudio Confidence, KEF Reference 1, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Focus line (twice).

I moved to Bowers 702 S2 a week ago. I moved and was going to do in walls and that idea died but I can’t afford to play in the space I once could after selling my KEF Reference speakers and taking on a greater mortgage. The KEF Reference were about as flat as a board in measurements but after a couple of years, maybe less, it just seemed there was no emotion to the music. I really really got bored of the sound. I think, looking back, it was the newness of the line and they did sound good in audition and those first published measurements! Should have listened to my heart more over my brain.

I really really liked the 702 S2 when I heard them. I listen to music like very old Coldplay where there was a lot of acoustic guitar, piano and vocal. They sounded fantastic for this style of music. I’ve only had them a week and not totally done with set-up, Dirac etc but screw the measurements to a point. A Friday night cocktail and some music of choice and I’m set.

As I said above, after owning enough speakers, you get a feel of what sounds right to you and what doesn’t and measurements may or may not be the first order of business and in the long run you need to know more than measurements, you really need to know what style of music is preferred. Some love Bach and others wouldn’t be caught dead listening to Coldplay Sparks.

Anyway, I think the 702 S2 sound great. They look great in white too.

Great thread by the way. Very fun read.


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post #2990 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 06:04 PM
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I feel pretty good getting a friend of mine started with the BS22's for his first set of speakers on an extremely limited budget, crossed with a sub. I'd feel terrible if he could afford $1800 and I had recommended those B&W. So yeah, I'd be way happier with those pioneer crossed to good subs than having way too much money in a set of speakers that measure like garbage.

To each their own though.

I also bought two pairs of the cheap Pioneer towers, the FS52s and they were ok. It was sins of omission versus sins of commission on the B&W.

I'd been away from the audio for almost four years while I was taking care of two parents with Alzheimer's so my ears were out of tune a bit.

I did luck out a couple of weeks ago when I finally got my super cheap, at $650, Magnepan LRSs That ordered right after AXPONA. What a stunning speaker, IMO of course. YMMV.
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post #2991 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 06:17 PM
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I also bought two pairs of the cheap Pioneer towers, the FS52s and they were ok. It was sins of omission versus sins of commission on the B&W.

I'd been away from the audio for almost four years while I was taking care of two parents with Alzheimer's so my ears were out of tune a bit.

I did luck out a couple of weeks ago when I finally got my super cheap, at $650, Magnepan LRSs That ordered right after AXPONA. What a stunning speaker, IMO of course. YMMV.
Congrats on your new speakers!
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post #2992 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 06:20 PM
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Congrats on your new speakers!

Thanks. Plus, I'm very happy I'm not bitchin' up a blue streak like I usually am with something new.
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post #2993 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 07:43 PM
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the db level one listens to is very important. also the v shape curve may not be noticed til more than 20 minutes of high volume listening. I bet most dont listen more than a song before switching.
That is a good point.

In addition, it may also make a difference if a consumer listens to speakers only rarely or very often and for extended period of time.

Wait, wait, wait. Hear me out.

People who listen to music only rarely, maybe are more interested in the sizzle or V shaped frequency response. It is similar to that extra sweet coke that was preferred in a one sip taste test but hated by frequent drinkers.

On the other hand, people who listen to music often and for extended periods of time may find such a speaker fatiguing and may prefer a flater frequency response curve speaker.

During Harman double blind tests, maybe most listeners were frequent music listeners (and so are most people in this forum and thread) and preferred a flater frequency response speaker all the time.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this crazy theory for why many consumers prefer V shaped FR curves in B&W and Bose.
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post #2994 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 07:52 PM
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I think its all part of Dr. Floyds circle of confusion...in my words it depends on what you listen to...I havent heard very many affordable to me speakers that excel in all musical recordings...I dontcare if speaker measure flat or not...everything doesnt sound great with flat speakers or any other.

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post #2995 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 08:03 PM
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Great, we're talking about music so maybe time for a music break?

https://tidal.com/browse/album/104700612

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post #2996 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 09:18 PM
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That is a good point.

In addition, it may also make a difference if a consumer listens to speakers only rarely or very often and for extended period of time.

Wait, wait, wait. Hear me out.

People who listen to music only rarely, maybe are more interested in the sizzle or V shaped frequency response. It is similar to that extra sweet coke that was preferred in a one sip taste test but hated by frequent drinkers.

On the other hand, people who listen to music often and for extended periods of time may find such a speaker fatiguing and may prefer a flater frequency response curve speaker.

During Harman double blind tests, maybe most listeners were frequent music listeners (and so are most people in this forum and thread) and preferred a flater frequency response speaker all the time.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this crazy theory for why many consumers prefer V shaped FR curves in B&W and Bose.
I would put money on this. At least in my own experience, bringing down the highs is needed to prevent fatigue and enable longer-term listening. You could graph it as treble amplitude increase vs time-to-fatigue, with the result being an inverse relationship.

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post #2997 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 09:34 PM
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I would put money on this. At least in my own experience, bringing down the highs is needed to prevent fatigue and enable longer-term listening. You could graph it as treble amplitude increase vs time-to-fatigue, with the result being an inverse relationship.

too many variables...I think a very large room might be alot more tolerant than a smaller bedroom/office...at least thats what I experience. volume levels alot lower in smaller rooms for me anyways.

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post #2998 of 4372 Old 06-21-2019, 09:40 PM
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too many variables...I think a very large room might be alot more tolerant than a smaller bedroom/office...at least thats what I experience. volume levels alot lower in smaller rooms for me anyways.
There are other variables, yes. But if you don't change anything except your treble boost, you will clearly note a point where you get tired of the sound quickly.

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post #2999 of 4372 Old 06-22-2019, 12:04 AM
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Glad to see some other folks getting on to this

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post #3000 of 4372 Old 06-22-2019, 09:13 AM
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Glad to see some other folks getting on to this
Scott, did you start a thread on your new speakers?

I haven't stumbled across it and while I'm not in the market for new speakers am very interested in those particular speakers just due to their design and price point.

Thanks.

Hopefully I'll remember to watch the video you linked.

EDIT: saw your comments in the Magnepan thread; seems you are really enjoying them.

Geoff A. J., California

Last edited by gajCA; 06-22-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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