How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3601 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I think I remember reading that all the scientific instruments/gear used in all these tests were DOS based from 40 yrs ago...has new testing gear come out and does it help with anything?
No. The computer operating system has no effect on the accuracy of acoustical measurements or the results of computer post processing of data. Nowadays it just happens very much faster than it used to.

In fact the DEC PDP11-03 I used in my earliest computer controlled measurements predated DOS - same answers today.
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post #3602 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Yes, we should definitely recruit within the bell curve of the population and ensure participants are up to snuff in any future studies. That is good methodology for any study, really.
A bell curve relates to a distribution of responses to an identifiable variable. What happens when there are several, interacting, variables. Soundstage and imaging isn't a simple thing, and we know it strongly interacts with sound quality which, itself, is not a simple thing - and probably accumulated experience/preference. What should be measure? I'm not sure that there is an answer.

But it sure is a good topic to keep a forum discussion going
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post #3603 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 08:49 PM
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All I can say is that I've learned a lot from this discussion and this forum at large, so cheers to that.

And the more you know, the bigger the universe gets.

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post #3604 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
A bell curve relates to a distribution of responses to an identifiable variable. What happens when there are several, interacting, variables. Soundstage and imaging isn't a simple thing, and we know it strongly interacts with sound quality which, itself, is not a simple thing - and probably accumulated experience/preference. What should be measure? I'm not sure that there is an answer.

But it sure is a good topic to keep a forum discussion going
That's a good answer as sometimes there just aren't answers.

And we made AVS some hard earned ad revenue.
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post #3605 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
That's a good answer as sometimes there just aren't answers.

And we made AVS some hard earned ad revenue.
On that, I wish those damn ad frames would load first so the page doesn't shift when they appear, causing you to click on the wrong thing.

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post #3606 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 09:20 PM
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On that, I wish those damn ad frames would load first so the page doesn't shift when they appear, causing you to click on the wrong thing.
That deserves a 'LIKE'
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post #3607 of 5313 Old 07-10-2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
In my room* and to my ears**, Dolby Pro Logic II (music mode) upmixing has typically sounded better than DTS Neural X (or any DTS upmixing flavor).

Unfortunately, Dolby has all but retired DPLII and replaced it with Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU), which is, to my ears, less good. Would love to try a DBT to test this preference, though!

And I wish I could find Auro3D on a non budget-busting device.


(*Audyssey MultiXT32 correction below 350Hz, dual subs, treated room, matched loudspeakers all around, blah blah)

(**rather worn with age )
Marantz 7704 has Auro ... don't know if this falls in "non budget-busting".

I seem to have settled on Auro-2D for 2 channel up-mixing. No overhead speakers yet ... soon !

Cheers,
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post #3608 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Indeed this is so. Humans learn and adapt, and it different people do it differently.

In my PhD research in the early '60s I was able to train listeners to believe that 0 interaural time difference (ITD) was not "center". All that was required was exposure to a laterally displaced abstract visual image on a CRT that supposedly tracked the auditory image - the visual image dominated the perception and subjects simply did not notice the discrepancy. After less than an hour of this "contradictory" experience a purely auditory localization exercise showed a displaced perception of "center". The aftereffect could last for more than an hour but retraining to zero ITD was possible in less time. At the time, psychoacoustic experimenters assumed that zero ITD was a definitive perception of center localizations. ...
This reminds me of my time in Germany as an exchange student.

Most of the shows and movies that are run on German television are from the US, but are dubbed. When I first arrived, it drove me insane that none of the audio matched the facial/lip movements of the actors. Eventually I got used to it. But when I asked Germans if it bothered them, nobody had any idea what I was talking about. I guess if you grow up watching TV where none of the audio matches the lip movements of the actors, you just end up not noticing any difference at all. Amazing.
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post #3609 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
DSU only has one user-configurable setting, AFAICT: 'Center Spread', with two options -- on and off.
Agree, just saying the menu item doesn't come up and make itself obvious when one is selecting modes, such as Dolby Surround music / movie options.
That is at least true on Denons. It makes a huge difference, and one may very easily prefer one setting or the other.

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post #3610 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 01:36 AM
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How odd.


My Firefox browser just updated to version 68.0 and suddenly it is warning me away from the Harman Luxury Audio Group website.



https://www.harmanluxuryaudio.com/


Anyone else notice any thing like this?
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post #3611 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SourNote View Post
How odd.


My Firefox browser just updated to version 68.0 and suddenly it is warning me away from the Harman Luxury Audio Group website.

https://www.harmanluxuryaudio.com/

Anyone else notice any thing like this?
Funny, but yes, doing it here too. If I recall correctly, it has some thing to do with renewing a SSL certificate or something like that. I had to have my website tech person do something similar last year. I can't remember the details because I haven't had any coffee yet this morning.

@Rex Anderson
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post #3612 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Funny, but yes, doing it here too. If I recall correctly, it has some thing to do with renewing a SSL certificate or something like that. I had to have my website tech person do something similar last year. I can't remember the details because I haven't had any coffee yet this morning. @Rex Anderson
Just tested and got the same warning and I haven't updated to 68.0 yet, I'm still using 67.0.4.

I checked it using Safari and both browsers say the certificate expired one day ago.

I haven't had coffee yet either.

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post #3613 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SourNote View Post
How odd.


My Firefox browser just updated to version 68.0 and suddenly it is warning me away from the Harman Luxury Audio Group website.



https://www.harmanluxuryaudio.com/


Anyone else notice any thing like this?
Firefox can stop your data from leaking all over the internet

http://flip.it/_V-70r


https://www.cnet.com/how-to/keep-fir...-the-internet/

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post #3614 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Just tested and got the same warning and I haven't updated to 68.0 yet, I'm still using 67.0.4.

I checked it using Safari and both browsers say the certificate expired one day ago.

I haven't had coffee yet either.

Doing commercial RE all over the USA, I see these warnings frequently on folk's site. It's something we now have to renew periodically. I had it too on my site for a couple of days. Someone needs to contact Harman's web admin and whomever does their hosting can renew the certificate.

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post #3615 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 10:26 AM
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Exclamation

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Originally Posted by SourNote View Post
How odd.


My Firefox browser just updated to version 68.0 and suddenly it is warning me away from the Harman Luxury Audio Group website.



https://www.harmanluxuryaudio.com/


Anyone else notice any thing like this?
From my cellphone.
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I let the guys at Harman know about the issue. They were aware of it and are working to fix it.
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post #3617 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 01:25 PM
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I let the guys at Harman know about the issue. They were aware of it and are working to fix it.
And tell 'em while they're busy we'll do some totally subjective listening tests for them. In stereo of course with both speakers .
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post #3618 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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And tell 'em while they're busy we'll do some totally subjective listening tests for them. In stereo of course with both speakers .
Both speakers?
These two?


My World Beating System!
Spoiler!
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post #3619 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 02:49 PM
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Both speakers?
These two?




Yes, two of the SAME speakers and properly positioned. We can leave the Klipsh at home.
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Yes, two of the SAME speakers and properly positioned. We can leave the Klipsh at home.
Your home?

My World Beating System!
Spoiler!
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post #3621 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 03:01 PM
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How to Choose a Loudspeaker: Watch the Steve Guttenberg video.


I do appreciate his passion.

- Rich
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post #3622 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 03:02 PM
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Your home?

Not my house. I already have nine pair. Enuff!!!
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steve guttenberg tries hard but he just doesnt do a good job of influencing/selling me on anything. Paul Mcgowan a lil better but feel he lies out has butt too much.

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post #3624 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 03:07 PM
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How to Choose a Loudspeaker: Watch the Steve Guttenberg video.


I do appreciate his passion.

- Rich
I actually have speakers in the same family as the Klipsch he's talking about, and I plan to purchase the LRS next week, so I should have them no later than Christmas 2022, maybe I'll do it myself! (Probably not.)

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post #3625 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 03:27 PM
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steve guttenberg tries hard but he just doesnt do a good job of influencing/selling me on anything. Paul Mcgowan a lil better but feel he lies out has butt too much.
Let's just say he likes his own cooking.
I am unable to consider products with great names but measure poorly.

For example the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream D/A processor ($5995.95):

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements

17 bits of resolution, and the $10 Apply headphone adapter has better performance for 44.1.

And let's not forget the blue-led noise harvester that converts audio the light:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ps+audio+...l_4nbikypqtz_e



It's modern day alchemy

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post #3626 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 05:25 PM
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Let's change the subject, as it's clear that no one's minds will be changed on the topic of imaging.

@Floyd Toole This a purely theoretical question. I was reading your article entitled "Subjective Measurements of Loudspeaker Sound Quality and Listener Performance" published in 1984. In Section 1.2 on the history of subjective testing you make the following comment:

Quote:
In many of the older works, doubt is cast by the state of technology at the time. Microphones and record reproduction devices performed deficiently in ways that could easily have prejudiced the results of the listening tests.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=4465

You were referring to studies that had been done in the '40's and '50's, 30+ years earlier.

I then read this comment you made the other night in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Meanwhile, all that said, the 9.4.6 channel system I now have is sufficient to send chills down my spine when it is fed a good recording or movie. And the soundstage and imaging I hear are up to my highest expectations - when it is fed a good recording or movie. But that is me . . . in my room.
We are now 30+ years past the publication of your papers. Audio technology overall has advanced far beyond what it was back in the '80's. Back then, the sources were analog vinyl or tape, both noisy and deficient in other ways. These days, we now have "object-based" 15+-channel systems with a separate channel or two just for LFE, Digital Signal Processing, Room Correction, Bass Management and EQ, and much more powerful amplification. The sources are digital, noiseless and lossless. They have Dynamic Range capability of 105 db, (compared to tape at 55 dB and vinyl at 70 dB.) They come to us on shiny little discs or over a wire connected to the internet.

In light of all the advancements that have been made in audio, do you think it is time to re-evaluate these findings? For example, one of the primary determinants of sound quality back then was "spaciousness." With the advent of high speaker-count, multi-channel systems, (like yours and mine, 9.3.4), is spaciousness less valuable and high directionality more valuable? Imaging no longer depends on fragile phantom sounds placed in the sound field, but only "heard" from the sweet spot. Imaging is now done with "sound objects" that move from speaker to speaker to speaker, and can be heard all over the room. How do you think monophonic testing applies to speakers used, not in 2-channel, but in high speaker count systems? In general, are there properties of speakers that are more beneficial in high speaker-count systems, that were not realized as being important 30+ years ago in 2-channel systems?

If you were still actively working in the field, what new studies would you be looking to do?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Craig

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"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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post #3627 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 06:43 PM
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I actually have speakers in the same family as the Klipsch he's talking about, and I plan to purchase the LRS next week, so I should have them no later than Christmas 2022, maybe I'll do it myself! (Probably not.)

I still haven't done chit with the LRSs. Set them up where they've been and music on just about 18 hours a day, mostly at low level. Just got home from Good Guys and music is back on within a couple of minutes of getting back in the house.

Did get down last night and listen for a while to the MLs and ended up sleeping down there. I'm content. Damn though do they sound different. I know its the room, but wow.
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post #3628 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 06:44 PM
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...
In light of all the advancements that have been made in audio, do you think it is time to re-evaluate these findings? For example, one of the primary determinants of sound quality back then was "spaciousness." With the advent of high speaker-count, multi-channel systems, (like yours and mine, 9.3.4), is spaciousness less valuable and high directionality more valuable? Imaging no longer depends on fragile phantom sounds placed in the sound field, but only "heard" from the sweet spot. Imaging is now done with "sound objects" that move from speaker to speaker to speaker, and can be heard all over the room. How do you think monophonic testing applies to speakers used, not in 2-channel, but in high speaker count systems? In general, are there properties of speakers that are more beneficial in high speaker-count systems, that were not realized as being important 30+ years ago in 2-channel systems?
...
I know I'm not Dr. Toole but to throw in my $0.02, a multichannel setup is going in the direction of using individual speakers to produce individual sounds. So ideally you want each speaker to be one that performs well as a mono speaker. This is exactly what Harman as been testing and optimizing for, explicitly, for the last umpteen years.
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post #3629 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
I know I'm not Dr. Toole but to throw in my $0.02, a multichannel setup is going in the direction of using individual speakers to produce individual sounds. So ideally you want each speaker to be one that performs well as a mono speaker. This is exactly what Harman as been testing and optimizing for, explicitly, for the last umpteen years.
Yes, but does a speaker that performs well as a mono speaker, and performs well in a 2-channel system, also perform well in a high speaker count system with object based audio? Or, are the requirements for speakers used in high-speaker count systems different than for those that were tested 30+ years ago.

It's easy to jump to the conclusion that what made speakers "good" 30 years ago still applies today. But is that true? Speakers today receive much different signals than they did 30 years ago. Their jobs are much different than they were 30 years ago. Are the criteria that made a speaker "preferred" in a listening test 30 years ago still applicable to the environments, usages and signals speakers find themselves reproducing today? What are the criteria that make for a "preferable" center channel speaker, and are those criteria different than a L/R speaker? What about a surround speaker? A ceiling speaker for object based audio? Are there any differences in the criteria for speakers used in Home Theater systems vs multi-channel music systems?

Things are so much different today, that the statement that: "In many of the older works, doubt is cast by the state of technology at the time. Microphones and record reproduction devices performed deficiently in ways that could easily have prejudiced the results of the listening tests." could certainly be applicable to the preference tests that were done 30 years ago on antiquated, (by today's standards), equipment.

I'm asking Dr. Toole if there is any benefit to redoing the preference testing to take into account the new tasks that speakers are now being required to perform.


Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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post #3630 of 5313 Old 07-11-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Let's change the subject, as it's clear that no one's minds will be changed on the topic of imaging.

@Floyd Toole This a purely theoretical question. I was reading your article entitled "Subjective Measurements of Loudspeaker Sound Quality and Listener Performance" published in 1984. In Section 1.2 on the history of subjective testing you make the following comment:


http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=4465

You were referring to studies that had been done in the '40's and '50's, 30+ years earlier.

I then read this comment you made the other night in this thread:



We are now 30+ years past the publication of your papers. Audio technology overall has advanced far beyond what it was back in the '80's. Back then, the sources were analog vinyl or tape, both noisy and deficient in other ways. These days, we now have "object-based" 15+-channel systems with a separate channel or two just for LFE, Digital Signal Processing, Room Correction, Bass Management and EQ, and much more powerful amplification. The sources are digital, noiseless and lossless. They have Dynamic Range capability of 105 db, (compared to tape at 55 dB and vinyl at 70 dB.) They come to us on shiny little discs or over a wire connected to the internet.

In light of all the advancements that have been made in audio, do you think it is time to re-evaluate these findings? For example, one of the primary determinants of sound quality back then was "spaciousness." With the advent of high speaker-count, multi-channel systems, (like yours and mine, 9.3.4), is spaciousness less valuable and high directionality more valuable? Imaging no longer depends on fragile phantom sounds placed in the sound field, but only "heard" from the sweet spot. Imaging is now done with "sound objects" that move from speaker to speaker to speaker, and can be heard all over the room. How do you think monophonic testing applies to speakers used, not in 2-channel, but in high speaker count systems? In general, are there properties of speakers that are more beneficial in high speaker-count systems, that were not realized as being important 30+ years ago in 2-channel systems?

If you were still actively working in the field, what new studies would you be looking to do?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Craig
I don't know how one would implement "high directionality" loudspeakers in each of the many locations in a high-channel count immersive system - to be directional at long wavelengths they need to be large. Dolby Atmos can go to tens of "immersive" channels in cinemas. The only practical method is to use conventional speakers and cover all internal surfaces with highly absorbing material - an anechoic space - thereby accentuating the direct sound, but it is not a nice place to live.

A short story. I was given a private demonstration of Atmos by Dolby when they introduced the home version. To begin with I was exposed to the "real thing" in a carefully calibrated (they said) dubbing stage, where soundtracks are created. They played an excerpt from "Gravity" which has sounds emerging from different directions. They did, but the sound quality was truly mediocre. I complained, because, truthfully, the night before I had played the film at home through my then 7.1 system. It was colored, and it sounded as though more than X-curve calibration was involved.

Then they played a male voice panned around the room. In 7.1 it predictably jumped from speaker to speaker on the sides and rear, but it always sounded like the same voice. When panned in Atmos, the movement was more uniform - no surprise with more channels - but the voice quality changed dramatically with location, becoming quite timbrally distorted in some locations. I naturally complained, and was greeted with the comment from a senior executive that "most people don't notice that". So "gee whiz' localization took precedence over timbral consistency and accuracy. I told my colleagues at Harman, and when some of them went the next day for supposedly the same experience, that demo was mysteriously "not available".

What was going on? With object-based directional panning the sound is shared among multiple loudspeakers in an ever changing manner as sounds move around. The resulting acoustical interference among the active speakers cannot be constant; it changes with position as different speakers in different locations are engaged. This is not mysterious - it is predictable. And it will be different for every installation, especially with different channel counts.

When I discussed this with Wilfried van Baelen, the inventor of Auro3D he understood, explaining that this was why his scheme was an addressed-channel system.

So, to answer your question about what studies I would like to see undertaken, I guess one of them would be to establish a scientific foundation for immersive audio, and force all the profit-motivated players to abide by the directives so that we don't end up with the mess we have. Right now SMPTE itself is debating where to put loudspeakers so cinemas can play all three of the formats. Commercially Atmos has won, but that does not make it be best or an optimum system. Perhaps that has yet to be created.

Fortunately for the corporate interests, consumers are easily amused by sound coming from different directions, and don't pay attention to fidelity as some of us in this forum do. For me, the most impressive demonstration of a concert hall and a cathedral performance was another private demo by Wilfried using his recordings in Auro3D. Absolutely breathtaking, was my response - I was "there" and could walk around the home theater and it didn't change. But this was a manufacturer's demonstration, and the circle of confusion did not exist - although it took place at a CEDIA event. Still, if it can be done once, it can be repeated. We need more . . .

For those of you with the playback capabilities there is an interesting recording: Delphian is the label, and it is a performance of Praetorius "Missa Tulerunt Dominum meum" recorded in Dolby Atmos, 9.0 Auro 3D, 5.0 DTS HD MA and stereo 24/192 PCM. One can switch at will among the options as it plays. The mixes were done by reps from the companies. For my taste, Auro 3D won hands down. But that is me, in my room
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