How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 03:38 PM
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I agree focus on the science and keep it brand agnostic. Show people what measurements people have preferred and how to read the measurements. When you show models that test similar to the preferred measurements and models that didn't, it is suspect when it comes from employees and dealers of the brand that tests well, especially when no other models presented test well. I don't know the OP's intent nor does it matter. If you want the science only then show the models as A, B and C and not the actual models. When the tester has a player in the game and that player gets first prize it makes it appear as an advertisement no matter the intent or how factual the information. I already stated I don't doubt the research just telling how it appears.
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post #392 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
They aren't identified by name - Although I'm fairly certain those are a (J)BL 6328 and a (G)enelec 8050. I can't say why they aren't named in the book.
Perhaps simply because the other monitors were not current products, and since it is in fact a scientific book, he didn't want to commercialize it by specifically naming too much -currently available- models.
Quite right. In my new book, I name names because I am long retired, and frankly don't care if anyone gets offended
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post #393 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Accuracy is preserved from input to output. When sent a sweep (flat/smooth signal), speakers with the flattest/smoothest anechoic response are the most accurate. There's no way to know the provenance of the recording nor the playback situation for the speakers. The only way to judge accuracy in this case is for the output from the speaker to match (as closely as possible) the input it is being fed. And this can be measured.
However, the original sound can't be duplicated. Frequencies may be very very closely duplicated, however the tones will vary regardless of how flat a speaker measures.
How many concert or venue speakers measure flat ( or even close)?
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post #394 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 05:19 PM
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I recommend OP be allowed to kick people out of this thread.


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post #395 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
However, the original sound can't be duplicated. Frequencies may be very very closely duplicated, however the tones will vary regardless of how flat a speaker measures.
This isn't about absolutism or perfection. Speakers convert audio (electrical signal) into sound (vibrating air). The closer the output is to the input, the more accurate the speaker.
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How many concert or venue speakers measure flat ( or even close)?
What does that have to do with accuracy (input vs output)?

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post #396 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
http://www.mariobon.com/Articoli_sto...ther_Toole.pdf

Loudspeakers range from highly unidirectional through multidirectional to omnidirectional. Each category requires different room treatment and positions. Listener preferences cannot be ignored. Some like a large spacious illusion (a relatively live room), others like pinpoint imaging (a relatively dead room).

There's more information in his book, which is very much worth a read.
I had forgotten about that white paper - 20 years ago; count 'em. Not bad, not wrong, but certainly not up to date. Read the third edition of my book for current thinking :-) Thanks for the memory.
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post #397 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
However, the original sound can't be duplicated. Frequencies may be very very closely duplicated, however the tones will vary regardless of how flat a speaker measures.
How many concert or venue speakers measure flat ( or even close)?
Current live sound PA systems from many companies are fully capable of producing full range flat response at incredibly high SPL's. The techs and technology that tune systems are highly competent. The problem as I see it, is most operators don't have the ears to make it sound good. I mixed live sound for decades and have had compliments from many folks including other professionals. I love mixing live sound on a great system that has been tuned well. It is not at all different from what this thread is about. We want systems that are tuned to be flat in the room and have neutral response at all locations (coverage) in the venue within the limits of human hearing. Past that, it's up to the engineer to create a mix that has good instrumental and spectral balance. When it's all working well, I have had had some of the most amazing sonic experiences of my life. Sitting behind the mixing console, doing live sound for great musicians on a great system in a great venue is one of the best experiences of my life and I have experienced it many times. I'm a very lucky guy, few people have ever heard or experienced sonic bliss as I have...

Even the best home theater systems pale in comparison to large scale PA systems in great venues. I set up and tuned 8.4 systems in concert halls and played back compositions by composers who wrote music specifically for those systems. Sound would move around the concert halls and create images that would blow your mind. One of the electronic music composers I worked with created the sound of a ball in a roulette wheel going around the venue. That was just one part of the composition, but it was amazing.
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post #398 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
How many concert or venue speakers measure flat ( or even close)?
The JBL VTX: V active array series uses the same compression drivers, low frequency differential drive tech, active EQ, etc as the M2. I am thinking these arrays are spot on accurate with insane SPL. Pretty insane. Gave a link if your curious.



http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/t...d/vtx-v-series
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post #399 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
However, the original sound can't be duplicated. Frequencies may be very very closely duplicated, however the tones will vary regardless of how flat a speaker measures.
How many concert or venue speakers measure flat ( or even close)?
As has been explained, a "flat" response simply means that all sounds in the original sound recording are accurately reproduced. That is a basic necessity. All else does not matter. Now about live-sound systems:

I have been in live concerts that I walked out of because, in one memorable case, the FOH (Front of House) engineer had serious hearing loss - not joking! He took a sound system capable of "HiFi" performance and absolutely screwed it up. It happened to be a JBL Pro system that I had some knowledge of. I attach a spinorama on one of the modules in a similar line array. It is a multi-amped active system. All of this is normal in the industry, and it does the profession an injustice to think that what one hears in a large concert venue is directly traceable to the loudspeaker designer. An incompetent or deaf FOH person can do great damage. When it all comes together it can also be awesome.

So, here is a concert or venue loudspeaker that can sound very much like a neutral loudspeaker if it is given a chance. I have been at demo session where we listened to a wide range of CD program material in a large venue - no FOH person - and it sounded like HiFi to me.
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post #400 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 07:19 PM
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You were the one who brought out the guitar, and now telling me that is not the way? lol.
Your view of the forest appears blocked by the trees. Are you being obtuse or pedantic?

That said: If you don't deliberately change is (or miscalibrate your DR), there's nothing that changes from the mic to the speaker except [potentially] volume [voltage, technically, in this case].

So yes. The output will sound proper if the speaker measures flat.

More to the point: quite a bit of double-blind testing has established that flat frequency responses are preferred.

And yes: flat is a comparison of the voltage in to the volume out to see if it is accurate. That's what accurate means in this context.
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post #401 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The JBL VTX: V active array series uses the same compression drivers, low frequency differential drive tech, active EQ, etc as the M2. I am thinking these arrays are spot on accurate with insane SPL. Pretty insane. Gave a link if your curious.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/t...d/vtx-v-series
I was hired to set up a huge corporate gig in a Ritz Carlton Ballroom using those speakers with Lab Gruppen amps. Two huge screens with projectors, etc. They had so many wireless mics they hired a specialist to tune the frequencies. Really big bucks...

Sounded pretty good to me and I'm used to Meyer and L-Acoustics.
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post #402 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 07:39 PM
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whats the least expensive, best value, small flat measuring speaker so I can try one out? maybe a desktop model...
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I was hired to set up a huge corporate gig in a Ritz Carlton Ballroom using those speakers with Lab Gruppen amps. Two huge screens with projectors, etc. Big bucks...

Sounded pretty good to me and I'm used to Meyer and L-Acoustics.


Do you have any data that suggest different amps affect sound quality?


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Do you have any data that suggest different amps affect sound quality?
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Nope!
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Nope!


Thanks for the confirmation!


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Originally Posted by torii View Post
whats the least expensive, best value, small flat measuring speaker so i can try one out? Maybe a desktop model...

jbl lsr 305 mkii
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post #407 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 07:49 PM
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jbl lsr 305 mkii

now thats something I can try...thanx

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post #408 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 07:57 PM
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This isn't about absolutism or perfection. Speakers convert audio (electrical signal) into sound (vibrating air). The closer the output is to the input, the more accurate the speaker. What does that have to do with accuracy (input vs output)?
To all that responded to my post.

I agree that the talk is about accuracy. Still accuracy is of little importance if the tone of the speakers fails to satisfy the listener.

I have owned Revel speakers for a few years. During that time I have owned many others and sold most of them and also have demoed many others.Sometimes I find other brands that sound good for a while then I start hearing things that do not sound as good as the Revels. The Revels just seem to go unnoticed while others have something that stands out and sounds good for a while then you realize that they are only good for short listening periods.

My reason for saying accuracy can be measured but not duplicated is because so many comment that they want the sound as it was produced and recorded. That ain't happening.
I have heard lots of live music and most was on speakers that would never measure accurately. Still sounds better than any home system I have heard. The closest thing to real that I have heard in recent years was Klipsch Jubilees. You all know how accurate they would measure. Problem was they got real tiring in a short time.
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post #409 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 08:02 PM
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The fed signal is a standard sweep (flat line).
just when I thought we were getting somewhere. smh.

Do you have a graph where all the tones are fed all at once to the speaker? How did the speaker behave? Did it respond same as pushing in one tone at a time?

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Nope!
Thanks for opening another can of worms. Of course we all know that cables make a bigger difference.
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post #411 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 08:08 PM
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whats the least expensive, best value, small flat measuring speaker so I can try one out? maybe a desktop model...
Try the Yamaha HS8.
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just when I thought we were getting somewhere. smh.


Just ignore this guy. His posts are nothing but trolling.


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Try the Yamaha HS8.


Do you have measurements?


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post #414 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 08:11 PM
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Still accuracy is of little importance if the tone of the speakers fails to satisfy the listener.
That's why there are tone controls. If I found speakers that imaged like champs and provided consistent coverage across my entire sofa but sounded a bit bright, I would (carefully) adjust the treble knob till I got the tone I preferred. I wouldn't dismiss the good qualities of those speakers for a problem I can adjust away (for free, no less).
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That's why there are tone controls. If I found speakers that imaged like champs and provided consistent coverage across my entire sofa but sounded a bit bright, I would (carefully) adjust the treble knob till I got the tone I preferred. I wouldn't dismiss the good qualities of those speakers for a problem I can adjust away (for free, no less).


I would guess that that speaker likely did not measure flat.


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post #416 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 08:18 PM
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I would guess that that speaker likely did not measure flat.
Probably. And/or my room was too reflective. Or...whatever other reason I find them bright. My point was that their tonal qualities wouldn't take them out of consideration IF they were doing other things well.

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Do you have measurements?


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Look at Figure 12.11 (c) in my book. It is obviously a total, revolutionary, change from the incomprehensibly popular NS-10M. Finally they decided that accuracy triumphed over opportunistic profit, and long term responsible engineering prevailed. Good for them. The NS-10 was not originally designed to be used as it was by pros - the story is in the book. The designer visited me at the NRCC.
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Look at Figure 12.11 (c) in my book. It is obviously a total, revolutionary, change from the incomprehensibly popular NS-10M. Finally they decided that accuracy triumphed over opportunistic profit, and long term responsible engineering prevailed. Good for them. The NS-10 was not originally designed to be used as it was by pros - the story is in the book. The designer visited me at the NRCC.


Thanks. I need to get a copy of the book. Preferably one that has speaker names so I can make informed decisions in the future.

I really wish I had know this a year ago when I decided to finally buy new speakers. I ended up with KEF Q500, Q100s for surrounds and an HSU sub, which I am very happy with, but making data driven decisions would have been preferred.


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Just ignore this guy. His posts are nothing but trolling.


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The charcoal calling the kettle black?

Let us get back to discussing what is important here, and not personal jabs and judgement.
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post #420 of 5358 Old 01-03-2019, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
To all that responded to my post.

I agree that the talk is about accuracy. Still accuracy is of little importance if the tone of the speakers fails to satisfy the listener.
If the speaker is accurate then tone is dictated by the source and the room. If you dislike the tone of a sound: there's the spot to play.

Of course, reproduction is more complex than simply the FR response chart. There's what we see in the waterfall plots. There's the degrees of axis. There's whether that line array produces HF over a large enough area that it no longer sounds like a point-source. There are people who will argue that perfect phase alignment matters (though I'm aware of no data supporting that). There are potential issues with breakup and mechanical clipping that may not show in the sweep because of the volume.... There are a number of other things that affect how a speaker sounds.

What Dr.Toole, and this thread in general, are trying to do is tell you, based on the samples, which measureable traits most correlate with the most positive outcome.

I've heard it said "I can't tell you a speaker will sound good based on measurements; but I can tell you it will sound bad" and I agree.

Quote:
I have owned Revel speakers for a few years. During that time I have owned many others and sold most of them and also have demoed many others.Sometimes I find other brands that sound good for a while then I start hearing things that do not sound as good as the Revels. The Revels just seem to go unnoticed while others have something that stands out and sounds good for a while then you realize that they are only good for short listening periods.
That doesn't seem uncommon. There are many things you can do to sound that initially sound "better", but don't remain so.

Quote:
My reason for saying accuracy can be measured but not duplicated is because so many comment that they want the sound as it was produced and recorded. That ain't happening.
I have heard lots of live music and most was on speakers that would never measure accurately.
That's production. The goal of a recording and reproduction system would be to mic the output from those non-flat speakers and reproduce it exactly.

Let's imagine that the guitar speaker you liked was +6db @1khz. Cool. That means that the 1khz sound from the guitar will be twice as loud as some other frequency that was +0db.

So you buy yourself a pair of those speakers for home. You mic the live performance and play it back. Now 1khz is +12db from what the guitar produced... you are playing a bright recording through bright speakers.

This is the same problem with deliberately over-driving tube amps in reproduction. When the original artist, or their sound engineer, makes that sound you love, your speakers now double-down.

The only reliable way to get sound you like is with flat speakers. You can always use EQ or DSP to add distortion; but it's much harder to take it away.

But again remember: the rules for production and reproduction are different. No one here has argued that the best guitar amps aren't over-driven or that the best guitar speaker is flat.

Quote:
Still sounds better than any home system I have heard. The closest thing to real that I have heard in recent years was Klipsch Jubilees. You all know how accurate they would measure. Problem was they got real tiring in a short time.
Most consumer Klipsch speakers hurt my ears.
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Last edited by JerryLove; 01-03-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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