How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 142 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4231 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 07:27 PM
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harman needs to test those speakers reviewed in stereophile that were flattest ever powered monitors...think 2 issues ago or something. without a doubt flattest measurements I have seen....ever....let me find a link https://www.stereophile.com/content/...m-measurements

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post #4232 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
My preference is has little to do with the parameters you mention. I like it. I really do and I have liked it all my life.

I shouldnt have mentioned you...I mean the listener training...but harman says its good so I believe...no, not really....but I get it.

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post #4233 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
here is an interesting question....what percentage of listeners primarily own classical music? classical music is tough to reproduce but is recorded well...so I can understand a preference if it exists. new listeners/younger than me....as far as I know....dont care about classical yet. shoot only reason I know about classical is from my dad....spent tons of time burning over 2000 freakin cds....
I listen to everything provided that it isn't popular so no pop or rap, but everything else including a bunch of classical from the earliest days of the LP
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post #4234 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I listen to everything provided that it isn't popular so no pop or rap, but everything else including a bunch of classical from the earliest days of the LP

listening to well recorded music is a pleasure. too bad it doesnt exist in 99.83755521 percent of recordings.

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post #4235 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Kal Rubinson but why am I an outsider?
All of us that like accurate speakers are outsiders

- Rich

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post #4236 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
All of us that like accurate speakers are outsiders

- Rich

you smart guys miss the humor

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post #4237 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
harman needs to test those speakers reviewed in stereophile that were flattest ever powered monitors...think 2 issues ago or something. without a doubt flattest measurements I have seen....ever....let me find a link https://www.stereophile.com/content/...m-measurements
I'm 99.9% sure they already did.
They won't share results anyway, so not sure why you want that.
For them to copy design?


I checked D&D website and found it really funny they hide vertical "polar" plot and only show horizontal. So much talk about directivity and concealing one of the parts.

Last edited by aats; 08-13-2019 at 09:51 PM.
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post #4238 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
I'm 99.9% sure they already did.
They won't share results anyway, so not sure why you want that.
For them to copy design?

I checked D&D website and found it really funny they hide vertical "polar" plot and only show horizontal. So much talk about directivity and concealing one of the parts.
What do you mean, they "hide" it? There's a difference between hiding something and just not publishing it.

They have nothing to hide, their vertical off-axis response is just about the best I've ever seen:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...m-measurements
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post #4239 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aats View Post
I'm 99.9% sure they already did.
They won't share results anyway, so not sure why you want that.
For them to copy design?

I checked D&D website and found it really funny they hide vertical "polar" plot and only show horizontal. So much talk about directivity and concealing one of the parts.
What do you mean, they "hide" it? There's a difference between hiding something and just not publishing it.

They have nothing to hide, their vertical off-axis response is just about the best I've ever seen:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...m-measurements
What's the difference if they have measurements at their disposal?

They obviously hid it for marketing purposes because crossover dip would make graph look worse and so their talk about "constant directivity".

I really don't know why you are defending company that hide their measurements (don't publish if you want, but please tell me a difference) in a "what a science shows thread".

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post #4240 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
What's the difference if they have measurements at their disposal?

They obviously hid it for marketing purposes because crossover dip would make graph look worse and so their talk about "constant directivity".

I really don't know why you are defending company that hide their measurements (don't publish if you want, but please do tell me a difference) in a "what a science shows thread".
I can't tell if you're kidding or not. Presumably they took a million different measurements of their speaker while it was under development, and as a final product. They aren't going to include everything in their spec sheet. Their spec sheet was obviously designed to look nice and not be too long and not have too many charts and graphs.

Or do you think they're also "hiding" their cumulative spectral decay plot, their impulse response plot, their impedance plot, their sound power plot, etc. etc. etc.?

As for a crossover dip, what crossover dip? You mean that dip at -15 degrees that can't possibly be more than 2dB?

Compared to every other two-front-facing-driver speaker I've seen measured on Stereophile, the vertical dispersion plot is astonishingly clean. Makes me wonder how they did it.
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post #4241 of 4367 Old 08-13-2019, 11:25 PM
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Well they did it with low crossover, steep slopes and close drivers (close relative to wavelength).
you can look at neumann kh80 for another example of this method (steep slopes, close drivers).
I want to go more angles than this. Up to +-90


And yes, I think they are hiding all those measurements. There is nothing wrong with it in terms of marketing. But it is all wrong when we are talking about it in a "what a science shows" thread as this prevents possible customers from making "scientific" choice.
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post #4242 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 03:53 AM
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A little pornographic with that comment!!!!!!
I didn't see that angle. Meant throw a grenade to flush things out.

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post #4243 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 05:22 AM
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I didn't see that angle. Meant throw a grenade to flush things out.

I thought I knew what you meant, but I'm always the first one to the gutter.
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post #4244 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 05:51 AM
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Any spins available for Revel’s in walls? Getting a pair of Revel W263’s installed today as side surrounds. It’s their lowest tier speaker but I feel like it will be pretty good quality for a surround speaker in a living room.


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post #4245 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 06:52 AM
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Any spins available for Revel’s in walls? Getting a pair of Revel W263’s installed today as side surrounds. It’s their lowest tier speaker but I feel like it will be pretty good quality for a surround speaker in a living room.


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post #4246 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 07:18 AM
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Edgy and harsh is the best way to describe it. Imagine looking deep into a broken mirror.
It's the reason I go back and forth between a broad shelf filter up top, and not.

With the shelf filter it makes those recordings more enjoyable, but lessens enjoyment of well done recordings.

Currently, I have no shelf, but that doesn't mean I won't use it in the future. At least I know why I need it, or don't.
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post #4247 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 07:46 AM
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I didn't see that angle. Meant throw a grenade to flush things out.

And also, that looked just my golf game when trying to play out of the rough.
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post #4248 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 09:24 AM
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Well they did it with low crossover, steep slopes and close drivers (close relative to wavelength).
you can look at neumann kh80 for another example of this method (steep slopes, close drivers).
I want to go more angles than this. Up to +-90

And yes, I think they are hiding all those measurements. There is nothing wrong with it in terms of marketing. But it is all wrong when we are talking about it in a "what a science shows" thread as this prevents possible customers from making "scientific" choice.
I don't know that Dutch & Dutch knew about this thread when they were designing their spec sheet.
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post #4249 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 09:28 AM
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Why you are so anti-measurement?
Why you defend a marketing perspective over measurements?

I thought this was supposed to be a thread where measurements are welcomed.

Last edited by aats; 08-14-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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post #4250 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 09:33 AM
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When I feel like one speaker does a certain kind of music better, it's probably because you're matching a dull song with a bright speaker, or a bright song with a dull speaker.

The reality is that recordings vary so wildly...the Circle of Confusion that Floyd talks about.

Best to have neutral speakers to not add your own coloration, and optionally use tone controls or even something like Dirac Live, within limits.

Molon and Gooddoc's M2's probably sound bright AF on modern, clipped music - not JBL's fault.
I don't know about theirs, but I listen to a lot of "modern" music on mine and I think they sound fantastic. For example, I was just listening to LSD's "Audio" track a few nights ago and it sounds incredible on them. I'd consider that "modern", no?

In fact, sometimes I find older music to be boring on them...like it needs the distortions of older speakers to bring it to life or round it out.

Maybe I just can't hear, lol.
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post #4251 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 10:02 AM
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What do you mean, they "hide" it? There's a difference between hiding something and just not publishing it.

They have nothing to hide, their vertical off-axis response is just about the best I've ever seen:
This is interesting because:
a) The Stereophile plots don't appear to match the NRCC plots.
b) however you look at it the FR is not the quoted ± 1dB.

The point of spinorama appears to be anechoic response as a predictor of quality so the NRCC numbers would (at least simplistically) seem to be the ones to use.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #4252 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 10:22 AM
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Why you are so anti-measurement?
Why you defend a marketing perspective over measurements?

I thought this was supposed to be a thread where measurements are welcomed.
WTF dude. I'm not ant-measurement. I love measurements. The more the better. I'd like to see measurements for everything everywhere.

But there's a difference between wanting to see measurements and expecting measurements from companies.

Just because some company doesn't publish the specific measurement that you, specifically, want to see, doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the company or that they're "hiding" something. To think such a thing is absurd.

These companies have no obligation to you to publish anything. If you don't like the stuff they do publish, then don't buy the speakers.
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post #4253 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 10:26 AM
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This is interesting because:
a) The Stereophile plots don't appear to match the NRCC plots.
b) however you look at it the FR is not the quoted ± 1dB.

The point of spinorama appears to be anechoic response as a predictor of quality so the NRCC numbers would (at least simplistically) seem to be the ones to use.
The Stereophile on-axis measurement is extremely close to +- 1dB.

This wouldn't be the first time that measured data for speakers disagrees between sources. I've seen e.g. Sound & Vision measurements that look so different from Stereohile measurements that there's no way you'd be able to tell they're measuring the same speaker. My takeaway from that is that doing these measurements is complicated. I don't know enough to say that anybody is doing them wrong, per se.
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post #4254 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 10:35 AM
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I don't know enough to say that anybody is doing them wrong, per se.
NRCC is doing them correctly. They have an anechoic chamber (and possibly very expensive microphones). The others are faking it (free field).


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The green trace above 200Hz in fig.2 shows the D&D speaker's farfield response with an analog input signal, averaged across a 30° horizontal window centered on the tweeter axis. The response is superbly flat, remaining within ±1.4dB limits from 200Hz to 15kHz! However, the output rolls off sharply above 20kHz, reaching full stop-band attenuation just above 24kHz

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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Last edited by bodosom; 08-15-2019 at 10:42 AM.
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post #4255 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 10:55 AM
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NRCC is doing them correctly. They have an anechoic chamber (and possibly very expensive microphones). The others are faking it (free air).
Dunno. I tend to ignore those specifications when they're so tight. Even the Salon2 is specified to +- 1dB from 26Hz to 20kHz which isn't borne out by Harman's own spinorama graph for it. Either they're outright lying or there's something I'm just not getting about how the specification is calculated. Not knowing either way, I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. It's hard to get that worked up about it anyway--we're talking about the difference between, like, a 2dB range and a 3dB range. Either way it's a small fraction of the 6dB range that most manufacturers quote (since the dB scale is logarithmic).
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post #4256 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
It's hard to get that worked up about it anyway--we're talking about the difference between, like, a 2dB range and a 3dB range. Either way it's a small fraction of the 6dB range that most manufacturers quote (since the dB scale is logarithmic).
I think at least the first four chapters of the "3rd" edition* should be required reading for people who post here and what people are doing wrong is not guidance for what should be done or what's important.

* Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #4257 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 11:25 AM
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I think at least the first four chapters of the "3rd" edition* should be required reading for people who post here and what people are doing wrong is not guidance for what should be done or what's important. ...
I guess you disagree with something I said but saying "go read a book" as an explanation is not really adding to the discussion.
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post #4258 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 11:28 AM
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Most people don't even read the prior posts on the same page before writing down an entirely uninformed opinion or question that was probably answered or explained two posts above. Now, I have no idea why you wrote that because I didn't look back on the thread, but this has been my experience

4 chapters, good luck with that 😁.
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post #4259 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I think at least the first four chapters of the "3rd" edition* should be required reading for people who post here and what people are doing wrong is not guidance for what should be done or what's important.

* Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms
What is your degree and in what field?
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post #4260 of 4367 Old 08-14-2019, 11:41 AM
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I guess you disagree with something I said but saying "go read a book" as an explanation is not really adding to the discussion.
I said read a small portion of the book so people can add to the discussion in this thread, I'm not going to attempt to compress 100 pages into a post. I'm sure Dr. Toole can do a better job of explaining things but he also (repeatedly) suggests reading the relevant portions of his book.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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