How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 147 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4381 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
This getting old business can be complicated.

Could tinnitus perhaps be better understood as a specific type of "phantom pain syndrome?"



It is well documented that folks who have lost limbs can still feel "sensation" in the limbs they no longer have. Their brains still manage to receive and interpret information from something that is no longer there.



Once upon a time all the nerve endings in your inner ear had cilia attached to them. Over time, some of them fell away.



Just as some complain about feeling pain or other sensations in limbs they no longer have, could not tinnitus be simply "hearing" sound from cilia that you no longer have? As I understand it, various cilia have specific frequencies they respond to. If you have lost a cohort of cilia that all respond to a specific frequency range, perhaps your brain is trying to compensate for that loss by playing at random the sound they should be hearing. Could this be what you hear as tinnitus?

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post #4382 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 04:20 AM
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I drank the advertising koolaid
Don't feel too bad as I think of the thousands or more accurately, tens of thousands I spent on cable in the 90s.
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post #4383 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
I don't think cheap amps have problem driving 4 Ohms today.
Here is an example: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-1002
That is $170 per channel of amplification.

Don't know how it sounds (I would guess it is not exactly a champion on a benchmark), but there is no problem in driving 4 Ohm for cheap now in terms of power.
Probably there are cheaper things, but this one is rated at 2 Ohm, which looks like it will guarantee ability to perform at 4 Ohm. It has a fan, but in 708i thread people were saying it very quite.
For 2 Ohms there can be some argument, not every amp can drive 2 Ohms, especially with phase turns, but 2 Ohms are quite rare if you don't connect speakers in parallel.
Those are amps and not receivers. In any event, it was Andrew Jones who spent some time alluding to electronics.

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post #4384 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Don't feel too bad as I think of the thousands or more accurately, tens of thousands I spent on cable in the 90s.
Luckily, I never got caught up in the cables or esoteric stuff. Not that I wouldn't have been susceptible - I didn't know much about audio - I was just luckily never exposed to it due to lack of any high end shops near me.
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post #4385 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 08:24 AM
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Those are amps and not receivers. In any event, it was Andrew Jones who spent some time alluding to electronics.

- Rich
The Elacs I own, B6s and F6.2s, are 6 ohm. The Unifi line is 4ohm IIRC. They're are not the most efficient speakers in the world, but I have no trouble driving them with the cheap little Yamaha AS301 I have in the LR system.

He does a real decent speaker for very little money plus he's a fun, knowledgeable guy to talk to.
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post #4386 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Luckily, I never got caught up in the cables or esoteric stuff. Not that I wouldn't have been susceptible - I didn't know much about audio - I was just luckily never exposed to it due to lack of any high end shops near me.
I get real excessive and obsessive with my hobbies and have two divorces to prove it. It's the same with the old collector cars. Thankfully, I didn't get into private aviation, which almost happened a few times.

True, I made good money for most of my life, but spent it as fast as I made so now I'm the 'value shopper'. That is if I want to have a few bucks until I'm cold and dead. Had I invested just what I blew on audio in the 90s, I'd be fat and happy as can be now. I guess the only good thing about it is that I did it when I had the hearing to appreciate it.
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post #4387 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I get real excessive and obsessive with my hobbies and have two divorces to prove it. It's the same with the old collector cars. Thankfully, I didn't get into private aviation, which almost happened a few times.

True, I made good money for most of my life, but spent it as fast as I made so now I'm the 'value shopper'. That is if I want to have a few bucks until I'm cold and dead. Had I invested just what I blew on audio in the 90s, I'd be fat and happy as can be now. I guess the only good thing about it is that I did it when I had the hearing to appreciate it.
Can't take the money with you, might as well spend it
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post #4388 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
The Elacs I own, B6s and F6.2s, are 6 ohm. The Unifi line is 4ohm IIRC. They're are not the most efficient speakers in the world, but I have no trouble driving them with the cheap little Yamaha AS301 I have in the LR system.

He does a real decent speaker for very little money plus he's a fun, knowledgeable guy to talk to.
This product is designed to drive 4 Ohm loads which is in line with AJ's discussion of electronics.

Here is the preview from Audioholics:

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifie...lifier-preview

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These new affordable integrated amps from Yamaha are bringing vintage back to modern times. The A-S301 ($399.95), A-S501 ($599.95), A-S701 ($899.95) and A-S801 ($999.95) will deliver the goods for any budget. From the A-S301 to the A-S801, these integrated amps are meaty, ranging from 60W to 100W and able to drive loads as lows as 2 ohms.
This looks to very different from a budget receivers that have 4 Ohm and other current limiting. There are very few measurements into load for these products. At best 1kHz power sweeps are available.

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post #4389 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 09:31 AM
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Could tinnitus perhaps be better understood as a specific type of "phantom pain syndrome?"
I have heard that explanation before, many years ago, but I have not investigated. It sounds plausible.
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post #4390 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 12:39 PM
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"Dipole" surround speakers were a dreadful idea, even in the day of 4-channel surround when they were originated by THX as a marketing/licensing ploy. They were not true dipoles - better described as bidirectional-out-of-phase, exhibiting massive acoustical interference effects.

"Dipole" surround loudspeakers are highly colored, in addition to not achieving their advertised goal. See section 15.8.3 in the 3rd edition for measurements.

In contrast well designed true dipole speakers are legitimate alternatives for general use.
Where does the recently discontinued JBL Synthesis® S4Ai surround fit in? These Dipole/Bipole/Direct mongrels were designed and patented right there in Northridge by Harman employees, and were sold with many JBL Synthesis® systems for years. Four of them came with a Synthesis One Array system I bought when I lived in LA, and one of the designers came to my house to do the ARCOS calibration. He was, of course, pretty high on them, and they sounded great in my room.

I still have the four of them sitting in boxes and have wondered if they would suffice as ATMOS heights.

Do you discuss or refer to the S4Ai in your book?

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post #4391 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 01:37 PM
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Where does the recently discontinued JBL Synthesis® S4Ai surround fit in? These Dipole/Bipole/Direct mongrels were designed and patented right there in Northridge by Harman employees, and were sold with many JBL Synthesis® systems for years. Four of them came with a Synthesis One Array system I bought when I lived in LA, and one of the designers came to my house to do the ARCOS calibration. He was, of course, pretty high on them, and they sounded great in my room.

I still have the four of them sitting in boxes and have wondered if they would suffice as ATMOS heights.

Do you discuss or refer to the S4Ai in your book?
The multi-mode "mongrels" as you call them included a "dipole" mode only for marketing (THX) purposes. Some people actually believed they had merit, but the system was optimized for bipole operation and was shipped in that mode. They would absolutely suffice as height channels. I do not discuss it in my book, but I did show a multi-mode Infinity in Figures 9.13 and 15.11 (with spinoramas).
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post #4392 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
The multi-mode "mongrels" as you call them included a "dipole" mode only for marketing (THX) purposes. Some people actually believed they had merit, but the system was optimized for bipole operation and was shipped in that mode. They would absolutely suffice as height channels. I do not discuss it in my book, but I did show a multi-mode Infinity in Figures 9.13 and 15.11 (with spinoramas).
They were installed and calibrated in bipole configuration. The Synthesis® calibrator was pretty adamant about that.

Thanks for your reply.
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post #4393 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SourNote View Post
Could tinnitus perhaps be better understood as a specific type of "phantom pain syndrome?"



It is well documented that folks who have lost limbs can still feel "sensation" in the limbs they no longer have. Their brains still manage to receive and interpret information from something that is no longer there.



Once upon a time all the nerve endings in your inner ear had cilia attached to them. Over time, some of them fell away.



Just as some complain about feeling pain or other sensations in limbs they no longer have, could not tinnitus be simply "hearing" sound from cilia that you no longer have? As I understand it, various cilia have specific frequencies they respond to. If you have lost a cohort of cilia that all respond to a specific frequency range, perhaps your brain is trying to compensate for that loss by playing at random the sound they should be hearing. Could this be what you hear as tinnitus?
Maybe, but tinnitus is not always caused by damage or a loss of anything in the ear. For example, I have tinnitus caused by TMJD. I'm told if I can get the nighttime clenching under control the symptoms would get better. That's easier said than done.

https://www.signia-hearing.com/blog/...nnitus-or-tmj/
https://www.tinnitus.org.uk/tinnitus-and-tmj
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post #4394 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 07:42 PM
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I'm curious what was the most unorthodox speaker design tested in the spinorama, and what were the preference ratings? Were those loudspeakers designed to produce specific "sound effects" tested in stereo? Or just mono?
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post #4395 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 09:48 PM
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Maybe, but tinnitus is not always caused by damage or a loss of anything in the ear. For example, I have tinnitus caused by TMJD. I'm told if I can get the nighttime clenching under control the symptoms would get better. That's easier said than done.

https://www.signia-hearing.com/blog/...nnitus-or-tmj/
https://www.tinnitus.org.uk/tinnitus-and-tmj

Interesting links. They also happen to be topical for me at present. For the last week or so I've awoken to a loud noise that apparently is occurring inside my skull. After getting up and out of bed, the sound quickly fades. I've recently been diagnosed with sleep apnea and have begun using a CPAP machine. The gadget pumps an over pressure of air into your nose and throat which forces your tongue forward and up against the roof of your mouth.



While my jaw used to hang freely in my mouth while I slept, which was what was causing the apnea, it is now firmly clamped up against the roof of my mouth. The good news is I am now having regular REM sleep for the first time in years, the bad news is the muscles that hold my jaw to my skull are sore each day. And the new noise in my head can wake me up. Now I have a better idea what it is and why it is happening.



Thanks!
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post #4396 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 10:13 PM
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I'm curious what was the most unorthodox speaker design tested in the spinorama, and what were the preference ratings? Were those loudspeakers designed to produce specific "sound effects" tested in stereo? Or just mono?
All of the "Image stabilization" designs were evaluated when I was at the NRCC. At Harman they were never regarded as significant competition for our mainstream products - which they still aren't.

I was using the prototype of spinorama back then. As I said, it should be obvious the subjective evaluations were done in stereo - otherwise why bother. All of the designs sprayed a lot of energy in "all" directions, to add "spaciousness" and fuzzy up the imaging so that soundstage distortions were less obvious.

EDIT: All of the designs used low-density arrays and so exhibited significant acoustical interference on any one axis. Only a digital spatial average could reveal potential colorations/resonances, and in some designs they were there.
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post #4397 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 10:15 PM
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...
While my jaw used to hang freely in my mouth while I slept, which was what was causing the apnea, it is now firmly clamped up against the roof of my mouth. The good news is I am now having regular REM sleep for the first time in years, the bad news is the muscles that hold my jaw to my skull are sore each day. And the new noise in my head can wake me up. Now I have a better idea what it is and why it is happening. ...
I don't think there's an easy solution to problems like that. Dentists will suggest a mouth guard to "prevent" clenching and grinding but do your research before spending any money on these things... studies show very little effectiveness.

Thankfully most of these problems resolve themselves without intervention after some time. Probably best to not focus on them or worry about them or you'll make them worse.
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post #4398 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 10:41 PM
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I get the same fake noise in my head. Scares the hell out of me. Look up exploding head syndrome. And it also started shortly after I began using a c pap for sleep apnea.
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post #4399 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 10:42 PM
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Thankfully most of these problems resolve themselves without intervention after some time. Probably best to not focus on them or worry about them or you'll make them worse.

Will do! Thanks!


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post #4400 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 10:59 PM
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All of the "Image stabilization" designs were evaluated when I was at the NRCC. At Harman they were never regarded as significant competition for our mainstream products - which they still aren't.

I was using the prototype of spinorama back then. As I said, it should be obvious the subjective evaluations were done in stereo - otherwise why bother. All of the designs sprayed a lot of energy in "all" directions, to add "spaciousness" and fuzzy up the imaging so that soundstage distortions were less obvious.

EDIT: All of the designs used low-density arrays and so exhibited significant acoustical interference on any one axis. Only a digital spatial average could reveal potential colorations/resonances, and in some designs they were there.
Are these commercially available? If so what is an example of what you are talking about? Is it something that manifests itself today as the https://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/speakers/beolab-90 ?
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post #4401 of 5358 Old 08-20-2019, 11:18 PM
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I get the same fake noise in my head. Scares the hell out of me. Look up exploding head syndrome. And it also started shortly after I began using a c pap for sleep apnea.
I've also had this happen a couple of times and the result is that I'm up and around for an hour or so trying to figure out what happened. Last time it was real. I thought someone had broken a window or maybe a deer crashed through a window or something only to find the next day I couldn't open the garage door because the big tensioner spring had snapped. Although, I couldn't get a car out until the garage door repair people got here, I was relieved that it wasn't in my head, but that's what it sounded like the times it was all in my head.
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post #4402 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 07:55 AM
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Are these commercially available?
Yes.
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If so what is an example of what you are talking about? Is it something that manifests itself today as the https://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/speakers/beolab-90 ?
I certainly doubt it. The dispersion from the BeoLab90 is tightly controlled and, despite appearances, is quite narrow over most of the spectrum. This minimizes the influence of boundary reflections while the speakers recently referred to here rely on them.
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post #4403 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 09:49 AM
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Yes.
I certainly doubt it. The dispersion from the BeoLab90 is tightly controlled and, despite appearances, is quite narrow over most of the spectrum. This minimizes the influence of boundary reflections while the speakers recently referred to here rely on them.
They certainly had BASS. They had them in a large rectangular room, probably 30' x 60' and positioned on the wide wall, which is pretty much what I prefer.

To the best I can recall, the soundstage was very wide, unnaturally wide, but image specificity / precision within that soundstage wasn't great with outsized whatever the instrument was. The eight octave, 97 key Imperial Grand sounded as if it was 10' - 12' wide instead of about 6'. Vocals, however, were about right to maybe a little wide. Almost all other acoustic instruments were larger than life. They indulged me by playing a few pieces that I either brought or they had the same. I didn't have anything with me that had well recorded octobass or contrabass sax or anything that big so can't opine. The double bass was rendered shorter than it is in real life, but wider. I don't remember all that much on many other speakers I heard, but do this one. Out of my price range, but very interested in the potential. I'll speculate that we'll see much of this in the future.

So lots of potential here, but as always, much experimenting with placement would likely be required.

Anyway, is there an example of "Image stabilization" designs"? I don't know what it is, but as with all the crazy stuff, I'm interested. Hate to ask again, but still curious. I did google and didn't find anything.

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post #4404 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 09:52 AM
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Yes.
I certainly doubt it. The dispersion from the BeoLab90 is tightly controlled and, despite appearances, is quite narrow over most of the spectrum. This minimizes the influence of boundary reflections while the speakers recently referred to here rely on them.
Almost sounds like the closest to what you describe would be a Bose 901 or K-horn if we're talking decades ago?
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post #4405 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 10:18 AM
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They certainly had BASS. They had them in a large rectangular room, probably 30' x 60' and positioned on the wide wall, which is pretty much what I prefer.
.................................................. .........
So lots of potential here, but as always, much experimenting with placement would likely be required.
Well, I had them in my own room for a while and their imaging and soundstage stability were outstanding. In fact,superior to anything else I have heard.

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Anyway, is there an example of "Image stabilization" designs"? I don't know what it is, but as with all the crazy stuff, I'm interested. Hate to ask again, but still curious. I did google and didn't find anything.
I really don't know what that means.
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post #4406 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 10:32 AM
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Well, I had them in my own room for a while and their imaging and soundstage stability were outstanding. In fact,superior to anything else I have heard.

I'd love for them to drop a pair off for a few weeks. I'd sure give it a shot.

The only thing I had with me that I was familiar with were recordings so I'd sure like to give it a try in my listening room that I am very familiar with. I think I could have the same outcome as you. Lots of potential here.


I really don't know what that means.
Neither do I.
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post #4407 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 11:47 AM
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Yes.
I certainly doubt it. The dispersion from the BeoLab90 is tightly controlled and, despite appearances, is quite narrow over most of the spectrum. This minimizes the influence of boundary reflections while the speakers recently referred to here rely on them.
With Beolab 90 you can choose


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Here is a paper on it from B&O
https://www.bang-olufsen.com/Content...whitepaper.pdf
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post #4408 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I really don't know what that means.
I think "image stabilization designs" means designs that try to stabilize the central phantom image in between the front speakers for multiple listening positions. At least that's what the Larsen speakers try to do. They reflect a lot of sound off of nearby boundaries to do this.


The Legacy Whispers and the Steinway Lyngdorph S5's are NOT "image stabilization" designs. They're just examples of excellent speakers that have design goals outside of the criteria for good spinorama measurements.
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Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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Last edited by craig john; 08-21-2019 at 12:03 PM.
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post #4409 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
There are people in the loudspeaker industry with lots of "experience" who never learn how to design good, much less consistently good, loudspeakers. Truth is that Andrew Jones understands and values science, which is at the basis of what he was saying.

EDIT: As he says, in effect the weakest link is the recording - or really the lack of standardization in the industry that creates them. The key is to start with uncolored, neutral, loudspeakers, and use tone controls to compensate for at least some of the variations in recordings.

It is summarized in the attached figure, the last figure in the 3rd edition of my book:
One thing I'm interested in is what constitutes a 'good' recording . That is, 'good' in some objective, measurable sense, not just a list of 'music I like' , which is what most such lists I see online seem to be. I would expect such a list to include music I *don't* like! It could even include sound effects or test signals records, for all I care. The point is to have a good point of reference. If there was some standardized list of truly 'best practices' recordings, by referring to them we could actually remove one variable when comparing our experiences of our systems.

Is this a realistic goal?
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post #4410 of 5358 Old 08-21-2019, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I think "image stabilization designs" means designs that try to stabilize the central phantom image in between the front speakers for multiple listening positions. At least that's what the Larsen speakers try to do. They reflect a lot of sound off of nearby boundaries to do this.


The Legacy Whispers and the Steinway Lyngdorph S5's are NOT "image stabilization" designs. They're just examples of excellent speakers that have design goals outside of the criteria for good spinorama measurements.
The Larsen's were quite different and IIRC, the only time I have ever enjoyed speakers up against the front wall. When I walked into that room up on the 15th floor and saw how they had their speakers positioned, I almost walked out of the room without listening, but then curiosity takes over. Very very interesting

A pic so folks know what we're talking about who aren't familiar with the brand.
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cea 2034 , double-blind , listening tests , loudspeaker measurements , spinorama

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