How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 150 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4471 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
What is it or what does it look like? My attempts at google aren't finding anything on point.
[Princeton 3D3A data]* linked from [SpeakerData2034].
[KEF LS50 whitepaper].


*3D3A's intrinsic interests are highly directive speakers but data is data.

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post #4472 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
No way. Unless you are listening to binaural recordings, headphones cannot reproduce the spatial aspects of the recording with accuracy.
What I'm saying is you'll hear the recording space or you won't, depending on microphone placement, and any other techniques or effects used.
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post #4473 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Exactly, it's all a matter of whether you prefer more direct vs reflected sound. Pointing speakers straight ahead may hurt imaging a bit but for those of us who prefer a wider soundstage and more of that "live" sound it can be beneficial.
Is this a 2-channel system?

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post #4474 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I can accept that as an option but it is a little tangential to my point. To be specific, why are some speakers made so that their on-axis frequency response is not acceptable for on-axis listening so that one is forced to listen off-axis?



I don't know the answer either. But it seems to me maybe soulburner's response does suggest an answer.


In trying to think this through: as I mentioned a predictable result of toeing out pretty much any speaker I've tried is the sense of the sonic images expanding in size, with a bit more sonic "weight" and richness, and a greater 3 dimensionality to the imaging and soundstaging, as well as (to my ears) taking on a more nuanced timbral quality (e.g. where toed in everything sounds "lit up" with a sort of high frequency sheen on everything, slight toeing out produces a greater variety of tonal 'colour' where, say, a low string or oboe sounds deeper, darker, where drum cymbals still pop out as brilliant in the mix. It just sounds more complex). (I have 5 pairs of speakers that I'm often switching between in my room - Thiel 2.7, old Thiel 02 traditional-design monitors, Spendor S3/5, Waveform Mach MC, MBL Omnis - and except for the omnis this effect holds true for all of them. I just went through dialing in the Thiel 02s last night, hearing exactly the issues I described as I toed in and toed out the speakers, in a well-damped, well treated room btw).


Putting aside the taste for the tonal balance, in terms of the apparent increase in the size and dimensionality of the sound, I'm wondering what causes this. Does it have something to do with how speakers tend to radiate to the listener off axis (whatever their frequency response on axis)? Or is this expanding effect always due to more room reflections by toeing the speaker out?


Hmmm..now that I think of it, it doesn't seem to be strictly the addition of room reflections, as I can gain a similar effect by moving closer to the speakers, hence both reducing the toe in in terms of angle to listener, and yet reducing room reflections by moving to more direct sound.



So...I dunno.


But IF such observations as I've made about the nature of slightly off-axis sound are the case, then maybe there's something about the way speakers radiate sound that gives a bit of a "bigger more 3d sound" off axis, and hence designing the frequency response to sound right slightly off axis makes sense.


I'm a know-nothing and just winging it here. I'm sure Floyd Toole can settle this issue.
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post #4475 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 09:16 AM
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I'm considering buying either the Revel F206 or the Paradigm 85F. While I couldn't find a listening window chart for the 85F, I did find one for the 95F. (I assume the 85F will be similar, except for less bass extension.) The 95F seems to show a significant dip around the frequency of the cross-over. Should this be a concern? On the other hand, the F206 has a remarkably flat response for its listening window.
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post #4476 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by doyoid View Post
I'm considering buying either the Revel F206 or the Paradigm 85F. While I couldn't find a listening window chart for the 85F, I did find one for the 95F. (I assume the 85F will be similar, except for less bass extension.) The 95F seems to show a significant dip around the frequency of the cross-over. Should this be a concern? On the other hand, the F206 has a remarkably flat response for its listening window.
The 85F is a two and a half way design.

Never heard it but that is a possible factor.
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post #4477 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I can accept that as an option but it is a little tangential to my point. To be specific, why are some speakers made so that their on-axis frequency response is not acceptable for on-axis listening so that one is forced to listen off-axis?



I don't know the answer either. But it seems to me maybe soulburner's response does suggest an answer.


In trying to think this through: as I mentioned a predictable result of toeing out pretty much any speaker I've tried is the sense of the sonic images expanding in size, with a bit more sonic "weight" and richness, and a greater 3 dimensionality to the imaging and soundstaging, as well as (to my ears) taking on a more nuanced timbral quality (e.g. where toed in everything sounds "lit up" with a sort of high frequency sheen on everything, slight toeing out produces a greater variety of tonal 'colour' where, say, a low string or oboe sounds deeper, darker, where drum cymbals still pop out as brilliant in the mix. It just sounds more complex). (I have 5 pairs of speakers that I'm often switching between in my room - Thiel 2.7, old Thiel 02 traditional-design monitors, Spendor S3/5, Waveform Mach MC, MBL Omnis - and except for the omnis this effect holds true for all of them. I just went through dialing in the Thiel 02s last night, hearing exactly the issues I described as I toed in and toed out the speakers, in a well-damped, well treated room btw).


Putting aside the taste for the tonal balance, in terms of the apparent increase in the size and dimensionality of the sound, I'm wondering what causes this. Does it have something to do with how speakers tend to radiate to the listener off axis (whatever their frequency response on axis)? Or is this expanding effect always due to more room reflections by toeing the speaker out?


Hmmm..now that I think of it, it doesn't seem to be strictly the addition of room reflections, as I can gain a similar effect by moving closer to the speakers, hence both reducing the toe in in terms of angle to listener, and yet reducing room reflections by moving to more direct sound.



So...I dunno.


But IF such observations as I've made about the nature of slightly off-axis sound are the case, then maybe there's something about the way speakers radiate sound that gives a bit of a "bigger more 3d sound" off axis, and hence designing the frequency response to sound right slightly off axis makes sense.


I'm a know-nothing and just winging it here. I'm sure Floyd Toole can settle this issue.
As always, reading your writings are music to my ears. Again, I agree.
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post #4478 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
No way. Unless you are listening to binaural recordings, headphones cannot reproduce the spatial aspects of the recording with accuracy.
What I'm saying is you'll hear the recording space or you won't, depending on microphone placement, and any other techniques or effects used.
Completely disagree. "you will or you won't" with hundreds or maybe thousands of degrees of grey in between.
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post #4479 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Completely disagree. "you will or you won't" with hundreds or maybe thousands of degrees of grey in between.
You're saying I can't tell the difference between a close-mic'd voice and one several feet away from the mic(s), with my headphones? Really? So what's the point of these micing techniques, then?
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post #4480 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 10:44 AM
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Completely disagree. "you will or you won't" with hundreds or maybe thousands of degrees of grey in between.
You're saying I can't tell the difference between a close-mic'd voice and one several feet away from the mic(s), with my headphones? Really? So what's the point of these micing techniques, then?
Goes way way beyond just that
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post #4481 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by doyoid View Post
I'm considering buying either the Revel F206 or the Paradigm 85F. While I couldn't find a listening window chart for the 85F, I did find one for the 95F. (I assume the 85F will be similar, except for less bass extension.) The 95F seems to show a significant dip around the frequency of the cross-over. Should this be a concern? On the other hand, the F206 has a remarkably flat response for its listening window.
I'm confused by your question. I assume that both speakers are otherwise suitable/desirable -- do you have some reason not to just go with the "better" speaker?

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #4482 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 11:01 AM
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I don't know the answer either. But it seems to me maybe soulburner's response does suggest an answer.


In trying to think this through: as I mentioned a predictable result of toeing out pretty much any speaker I've tried is the sense of the sonic images expanding in size, with a bit more sonic "weight" and richness, and a greater 3 dimensionality to the imaging and soundstaging, as well as (to my ears) taking on a more nuanced timbral quality (e.g. where toed in everything sounds "lit up" with a sort of high frequency sheen on everything, slight toeing out produces a greater variety of tonal 'colour' where, say, a low string or oboe sounds deeper, darker, where drum cymbals still pop out as brilliant in the mix. It just sounds more complex). (I have 5 pairs of speakers that I'm often switching between in my room - Thiel 2.7, old Thiel 02 traditional-design monitors, Spendor S3/5, Waveform Mach MC, MBL Omnis - and except for the omnis this effect holds true for all of them. I just went through dialing in the Thiel 02s last night, hearing exactly the issues I described as I toed in and toed out the speakers, in a well-damped, well treated room btw).


Putting aside the taste for the tonal balance, in terms of the apparent increase in the size and dimensionality of the sound, I'm wondering what causes this. Does it have something to do with how speakers tend to radiate to the listener off axis (whatever their frequency response on axis)? Or is this expanding effect always due to more room reflections by toeing the speaker out?


Hmmm..now that I think of it, it doesn't seem to be strictly the addition of room reflections, as I can gain a similar effect by moving closer to the speakers, hence both reducing the toe in in terms of angle to listener, and yet reducing room reflections by moving to more direct sound.



So...I dunno.


But IF such observations as I've made about the nature of slightly off-axis sound are the case, then maybe there's something about the way speakers radiate sound that gives a bit of a "bigger more 3d sound" off axis, and hence designing the frequency response to sound right slightly off axis makes sense.


I'm a know-nothing and just winging it here. I'm sure Floyd Toole can settle this issue.
Extreme toe-in, another option?

http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticle...20Speakers.pdf

I've never tried it because I have a CC, but maybe it works even for that?

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post #4483 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 11:31 AM
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I'm considering buying either the Revel F206 or the Paradigm 85F. While I couldn't find a listening window chart for the 85F, I did find one for the 95F. (I assume the 85F will be similar, except for less bass extension.) The 95F seems to show a significant dip around the frequency of the cross-over. Should this be a concern? On the other hand, the F206 has a remarkably flat response for its listening window.

Paradigm has chosen to "voice" their current line of loudspeakers, they are not flat on or off axis. They look "colored" to me. You should listen and compare if at all possible.
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post #4484 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by doyoid View Post
I'm considering buying either the Revel F206 or the Paradigm 85F. While I couldn't find a listening window chart for the 85F, I did find one for the 95F. (I assume the 85F will be similar, except for less bass extension.) The 95F seems to show a significant dip around the frequency of the cross-over. Should this be a concern? On the other hand, the F206 has a remarkably flat response for its listening window.
Get the Revel. You will have long term satisfaction with them. Paradigm is currently aiming for a house sound that is not flat. Why anyone would want that is beyond me.
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Get the Revel. You will have long term satisfaction with them. Paradigm is currently aiming for a house sound that is not flat. Why anyone would want that is beyond me.
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Paradigm has chosen to "voice" their current line of loudspeakers, they are not flat on or off axis. They look "colored" to me. You should listen and compare if at all possible.

Thanks for the comments. I'm not able to audition the Revels prior to purchase, so all I had to go on is the subjective reviews I've read which were very good. I had originally considered the Paradigms because I can buy them locally until I read this thread and found the frequency response charts. I was surprised to see such a pronounced dip in the mid-range of the Paradigms.
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Some perspective from my work as a recording engineer.

Pop music recorded in recording studios uses different mic techniques, sometimes using one mic (mono), sometimes two mics in a stereo configuration (like on a drum set or piano). Sometimes multiple mics are used and blended together. A common technique to mic guitar amps is to use a few mics close to the speaker. Additional "room" mic(s) may be used. The final mix of mics is by taste, up to the engineer/artist/producer. You can get a very "in your face" sound or more "amp in a room" sound. Recording studios are chosen for their acoustics, engineers/producers swear by certain studios for how good they sound for drum sets etc. In addition to using the natural sound of the room, artificial reverb and delay is used to create a "sound" that is not so direct and in your face.

Recording schools have students analyze recordings and have them attempt to match the sound of the original recording. Great ear training and research. Knowing what equipment was used, mic techniques, effects processing etc is a great way to learn the skills. Imagine trying to duplicate the sound of a Hendrix song mixed by Eddie Kramer.

Classical music recordings use "natural stereo recording techniques": A/B, X/Y, ORTF, NOS, M-S, Blumlein, Decca Tree etc. The DPA website has an excellent description of these techniques.

https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-u...&lowerfilters=

In addition to the main mic arrays, spot mics are frequently employed to help balance issues. The goal of the engineer/producer is to get good instrumental balance and capture the sound of the concert hall and instruments with a good direct to reverberant sound balance. When recording an orchestra, engineers use height and distance of mics (hung from above or on tall mic stands) from the front row of instruments in an attempt to get a good sense of front to back "depth of field". When mixed to stereo, natural imaging is a goal. Instruments should appear in the image like they do on stage, yielding a good phantom image perspective of hard left, left center, center, right center and hard right locations.

The ability of a pair of loudspeakers to reproduce the sound of the recording with full frequency range, dynamic range, low distortion and the ability to create a good stereo image is what I look for. Stereo image includes left to right and front to back perspective. The use of subs can help achieve smooth, extended low frequency reproduction in the room. Varying degrees of toe-in will affect the stereo image and the tonal balance.
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post #4487 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 12:20 PM
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Not really.
I am asking why we are not all pointing our speakers directly at our listening position. To me, the answer is that it due to a dissatisfaction with what we hear on-axis and an attempt to ameliorate the situation. That leads to the question of why a speaker should not be designed and built to sound best on-axis. What possible good reason could there be?
There's a good reason why many, if not most, speakers measure better slightly off axis than on axis. It has nothing to do with a deliberate design decision. On axis, speakers with their drivers centered will suffer to varying degrees from diffraction peaks and dips as sound waves diffract back from the edges of the cabinet and meet each other exactly in phase (causing peaks) or out of phase (resulting in cancellation dips). The extent of the problem will depend on a host of variables, including the amount of round over, width of the cabinet, crossover points and the drivers themselves. When you move a little off axis, the drivers will longer radiate as though they were equal distances from the cabinet sides, diffraction peaks and dips won't be as severe. As you go further off axis, the response linearity might deteriorate due to differing dispersion patterns between the drivers, but this won't be an issue at the small angles created with the speakers firing straight ahead and the listener in a normal position. If the listening position is closer to the speakers, I would imagine some toe-in would be required for most speakers Anyhow, it's easy enough to experiment, although the listening tests really should be blinded, or else your eyes may tell your brain things that really aren't true.
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post #4488 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 12:44 PM
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Extreme toe-in, another option?

http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticle...20Speakers.pdf

I've never tried it because I have a CC, but maybe it works even for that?

Craig

I've had a couple of speaker demos where the dealer set them up that way. Though it "worked" to a degree, I did not prefer it. I still prefer slight toe-out (the degree depending on the speaker)
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I was surprised to see such a pronounced dip in the mid-range of the Paradigms.
Perhaps they're inspired by the BBC dip.

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Extreme toe-in, another option?

http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticle...20Speakers.pdf

I've never tried it because I have a CC, but maybe it works even for that?

Craig

I've had a couple of speaker demos where the dealer set them up that way. Though it "worked" to a degree, I did not prefer it. I still prefer slight toe-out (the degree depending on the speaker)
That's what Wendell Diller was doing with the little magnepans at Axpona when he introduced them. I did try it when I finally got mine. Still wasn't as happy as I was with much less toe in
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I really wouldn't suggest trying that with speakers that don't have very controlled directivity. By design, you'll be sitting far off axis of the speaker to which you are closest. You want that to cause a lower volume level from that speaker, but the shape of the frequency response needs to be close to that of the on-axis response for decent sound.
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I really wouldn't suggest trying that with speakers that don't have very controlled directivity. By design, you'll be sitting far off axis of the speaker to which you are closest. You want that to cause a lower volume level from that speaker, but the shape of the frequency response needs to be close to that of the on-axis response for decent sound.
From the article:


Quote:
For now, assume that the whole spectrum keeps the same general shape ("constant directivity") at different angles off-axis, but gets lower in intensity as you go further off axis (“controlled directivity”). This is usually accomplished with large-ish waveguide-basedspeakers.

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Exactly. But for some reason many try it with non-suitable speakers and decide it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out the whole idea is to get a better experience for multiple listeners--the main application being home theaters in this context. For a "listening room" with a single chair at the sweetspot, I wouldn't bother.
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Exactly. But for some reason many try it with non-suitable speakers and decide it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out the whole idea is to get a better experience for multiple listeners--the main application being home theaters in this context. For a "listening room" with a single chair at the sweetspot, I wouldn't bother.
Does it do a better job than a hard CC speaker?

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I don't think anybody would claim that. But I think there can still be benefits even when you have a center channel locking that down.



If you're sitting far from center, say, right in front of the left speaker, music from that speaker can be overwhelming and make it more difficult to hear dialog from the center channel and music from the right. With this arrangement, that left speaker is knocked down several db for you, improving how well you can hear the center and right channel which may improve the experience from a movie soundtrack or multi-channel music.
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post #4496 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
But I make egregious errors all the time and having LS50s I certainly want to feel justified in my research and purchase.
The princeton plots show a similar response to me but I still think the LS50 are amazing speakers, they just need a little help in the form of EQ around the 2kHz range and they need to be crossed over around 100Hz to keep the deep bass out of them. Do those things and you have very uniform response in all directions and a solid, diffraction-free cabinet. They're very tough to beat at the price you can get them for any really much more.
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post #4497 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
There's a good reason why many, if not most, speakers measure better slightly off axis than on axis. It has nothing to do with a deliberate design decision. On axis, speakers with their drivers centered will suffer to varying degrees from diffraction peaks and dips as sound waves diffract back from the edges of the cabinet and meet each other exactly in phase (causing peaks) or out of phase (resulting in cancellation dips). The extent of the problem will depend on a host of variables, including the amount of round over, width of the cabinet, crossover points and the drivers themselves. When you move a little off axis, the drivers will longer radiate as though they were equal distances from the cabinet sides, diffraction peaks and dips won't be as severe. As you go further off axis, the response linearity might deteriorate due to differing dispersion patterns between the drivers, but this won't be an issue at the small angles created with the speakers firing straight ahead and the listener in a normal position. If the listening position is closer to the speakers, I would imagine some toe-in would be required for most speakers Anyhow, it's easy enough to experiment, although the listening tests really should be blinded, or else your eyes may tell your brain things that really aren't true.
Agree. I have a helper do the rotating while I listen and always with eyes closed so I can focus better. I would normally say, with the room completely dark, but learned that lesson when helper tripped and pulled speaker cable out of the back of the speaker. Thankfully, they didn't touch and blow something up.
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post #4498 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 04:13 PM
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I really wouldn't suggest trying that with speakers that don't have very controlled directivity. By design, you'll be sitting far off axis of the speaker to which you are closest. You want that to cause a lower volume level from that speaker, but the shape of the frequency response needs to be close to that of the on-axis response for decent sound.
Not sure who you're talking to, but yes, I agree with the above, but at a much lower level to reduce crosstalk to a reasonable degree.
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post #4499 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 04:17 PM
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Exactly. But for some reason many try it with non-suitable speakers and decide it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out the whole idea is to get a better experience for multiple listeners--the main application being home theaters in this context. For a "listening room" with a single chair at the sweetspot, I wouldn't bother.
Again, in all that I post, this is never my goal. I don't want anyone else in this room when I listen. In my other rooms that have systems, I'm generally not in that chair all that much so the lack of directionality to an extent is good.
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post #4500 of 5318 Old 08-24-2019, 04:31 PM
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[quote=Kal Rubinson;58465560]
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That is, imho, a matter of taste but your speakers are quite accurate on-axis (and nearly as much somewhat off-axis), so you can choose what suits your taste.
But think about the design aspects, it's been discussed that the 1st reflection plot should match as closely with the listening window as possible, if you point your speakers straight ahead, it changes the angles that this 1st reflection curve is based on to be much closer to the new listening window because they are all much closer to this 15-30 deg angle compared to the standard spinorama.
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