How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 151 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4501 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
In trying to think this through: as I mentioned a predictable result of toeing out pretty much any speaker I've tried is the sense of the sonic images expanding in size, with a bit more sonic "weight" and richness, and a greater 3 dimensionality to the imaging and soundstaging, as well as (to my ears) taking on a more nuanced timbral quality (e.g. where toed in everything sounds "lit up" with a sort of high frequency sheen on everything, slight toeing out produces a greater variety of tonal 'colour' where, say, a low string or oboe sounds deeper, darker, where drum cymbals still pop out as brilliant in the mix. It just sounds more complex). (I have 5 pairs of speakers that I'm often switching between in my room - Thiel 2.7, old Thiel 02 traditional-design monitors, Spendor S3/5, Waveform Mach MC, MBL Omnis - and except for the omnis this effect holds true for all of them. I just went through dialing in the Thiel 02s last night, hearing exactly the issues I described as I toed in and toed out the speakers, in a well-damped, well treated room btw).
Of course, you are listening in stereo which, by its nature, demands a room contribution. But changing toe-in also makes changes in the timing, level and, to no insignificant degree, the tonality of the reflections. Now, if the speakers were not only flat on-axis but similarly flat in its Listening Window Response and its Early Reflections Response, the tonality would not be greatly affected by those adjustments.

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Putting aside the taste for the tonal balance, in terms of the apparent increase in the size and dimensionality of the sound, I'm wondering what causes this. Does it have something to do with how speakers tend to radiate to the listener off axis (whatever their frequency response on axis)? Or is this expanding effect always due to more room reflections by toeing the speaker out?
The latter, I believe.

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post #4502 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Again, in all that I post, this is never my goal. I don't want anyone else in this room when I listen.
I understand and there's nothing wrong with that. I was just pointing out to people, if that's their goal, an extreme toe-in arrangement likely won't be beneficial, even if they do have speakers that could pull it off.
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post #4503 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
The article ends with:
"Credit where credit is due:
I first heard of time-intensity trading with speakers in an AES paper about
development of the DBX Soundfield One loudspeaker (google for more info).
Don Keele, Earl Geddes, Tom Danley, Wayne Parham, Duke Lejeune, and Zilch
have discussed these concepts, as applied to horn/waveguide based
loudspeakers, in various articles and forum posts."

I suspect those individuals would all rightly give credit to Alan Blumlein.

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post #4504 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post
Why anyone would want that is beyond me.
Yet, again.

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post #4505 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Yet, again.
Was this referring to the fact that I had made this point before, or you have heard this point before (and either agree or don't agree). Please elucidate.

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post #4506 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
There's a good reason why many, if not most, speakers measure better slightly off axis than on axis. It has nothing to do with a deliberate design decision. On axis, speakers with their drivers centered will suffer to varying degrees from diffraction peaks and dips as sound waves diffract back from the edges of the cabinet and meet each other exactly in phase (causing peaks) or out of phase (resulting in cancellation dips). The extent of the problem will depend on a host of variables, including the amount of round over, width of the cabinet, crossover points and the drivers themselves. When you move a little off axis, the drivers will longer radiate as though they were equal distances from the cabinet sides, diffraction peaks and dips won't be as severe. As you go further off axis, the response linearity might deteriorate due to differing dispersion patterns between the drivers, but this won't be an issue at the small angles created with the speakers firing straight ahead and the listener in a normal position. If the listening position is closer to the speakers, I would imagine some toe-in would be required for most speakers Anyhow, it's easy enough to experiment, although the listening tests really should be blinded, or else your eyes may tell your brain things that really aren't true.
Thanks for this contribution. It is something that any qualified speaker designer should know. Yet, some have sound ways to improve significantly the on-axis response and still maintain reasonably good off-axis response. What is of concern to me is that there are manufacturers who, by all available evidence are more than competent and who have access to all the modern design/testing appliances consistently produce speakers with bizarre on-axis FR.

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post #4507 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
That's what Wendell Diller was doing with the little magnepans at Axpona when he introduced them. I did try it when I finally got mine. Still wasn't as happy as I was with much less toe in
Doing that with dipoles is yet another story.

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post #4508 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Does it do a better job than a hard CC speaker?
IMHO, no but it requires that you have a CC of music for it.

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post #4509 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post

But think about the design aspects, it's been discussed that the 1st reflection plot should match as closely with the listening window as possible, if you point your speakers straight ahead, it changes the angles that this 1st reflection curve is based on to be much closer to the new listening window because they are all much closer to this 15-30 deg angle compared to the standard spinorama.
Yes. That's one reason I advocate that we take the on-axis to the MLP as reference and relate toe-in (or toe-out) to that.
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post #4510 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post
Was this referring to the fact that I had made this point before, or you have heard this point before (and either agree or don't agree). Please elucidate.
I have made this point before and I know of others who have made it. Should I have said "Join the club!" ;-)

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post #4511 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I have made this point before and I know of others who have made it. Should I have said "Join the club!" ;-)
Count me in as a member!

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post #4512 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
I understand and there's nothing wrong with that. I was just pointing out to people, if that's their goal, an extreme toe-in arrangement likely won't be beneficial, even if they do have speakers that could pull it off.
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Doing that with dipoles is yet another story.
I will say that Wendell pulled it off, but I couldn't. Those $650 LRSs were considered by many to be some of the best sound at the show by me and others. To me, in the top two or three along with the Dynaudio Evoke 50, but hell if I could make it work to my satisfaction here, either in my listening room or living room. Effects were much like Rich discussed in an earlier post. True, I've had a real busy summer and really haven't spent all that much time with them and won't until the snow flies.
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post #4513 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Thanks for this contribution. It is something that any qualified speaker designer should know. Yet, some have sound ways to improve significantly the on-axis response and still maintain reasonably good off-axis response. What is of concern to me is that there are manufacturers who, by all available evidence are more than competent and who have access to all the modern design/testing appliances consistently produce speakers with bizarre on-axis FR.
I think we can agree on which speakers they are. If there are wide fluctuations in the on-axis response and the designer knows how to avoid them, then it's a deliberate voicing decision, and the designer (or marketing staff) thinks they sound better that way. I just didn't want people to take away from the discussion that the on-axis response for most speakers will and should be better on axis than slightly off axis.
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post #4514 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I think we can agree on which speakers they are. If there are wide fluctuations in the on-axis response and the designer knows how to avoid them, then it's a deliberate voicing decision, and the designer (or marketing staff) thinks they sound better that way. I just didn't want people to take away from the discussion that the on-axis response for most speakers will and should be better on axis than slightly off axis.
I like how Stereophile does their off-axis plots, it makes it very easy to see how smooth the dispersion is (or isn't).

But one thing that gives me pause is that the plots are normalized to the on-axis FR.

So if a speaker has a flatter FR off-axis, it's going to make the whole plot look lumpy. I guess the assumption is that the flattest FR will be on-axis but as you point out, that's not always going to be the case.
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First you need to define what is on-axis.
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post #4516 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
First you need to define what is on-axis.
The physical center of the polar dispersion?
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post #4517 of 5313 Old 08-24-2019, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Not really.

I am asking why we are not all pointing our speakers directly at our listening position. To me, the answer is that it due to a dissatisfaction with what we hear on-axis and an attempt to ameliorate the situation. That leads to the question of why a speaker should not be designed and built to sound best on-axis. What possible good reason could there be?

In addition to what Dr. Murphy wrote, consider the case of a concentric driver or a round waveguide. These are going to have axial cancellation notches at HF that fill in very quickly off axis. So slight off axis (or note) generally works best.

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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
I like how Stereophile does their off-axis plots, it makes it very easy to see how smooth the dispersion is (or isn't).



But one thing that gives me pause is that the plots are normalized to the on-axis FR.



So if a speaker has a flatter FR off-axis, it's going to make the whole plot look lumpy. I guess the assumption is that the flattest FR will be on-axis but as you point out, that's not always going to be the case.

This. JA needs to add an UN-normalized plot.
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The physical center of the polar dispersion?
What it is designed to be listened off this? Should we select a manufacturer-defined axis then as on-axis?
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post #4519 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 12:16 AM
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EDIT: Never had a problem with my dishwasher but the sound of breaking glass when I dump a bunch of bottles in the recycling dumpster causes my ears to hurt for several minutes afterwards. I wonder how much permanent damage I'm doing just from those 1-2 seconds.
Perhaps keep some earmuffs handy for those times? Bit of an annoyance to have to bring them with you every time but perhaps worth it?

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I also find dishes and especially glass dropped into the recycling to be slightly painful. Now I want to bring my sound analyzer next time I drop off the recycling.

Come to think of it, my typing on the keyboard also induces a hypersensitivity, as does someone talking to me in a typical drywalled interior room. Many people speak far louder than they need to, at least for me. I've noticed that it can temporarily affect my hearing until a a second or two after the sound stops.
It's interesting that different things can affect people differently. I wonder why typing is an issue for you? The sounds level involved are pretty low. I also hate it when people speak too loud - I think this is one case where many people would feel the same.

By the way, thanks for sharing your experiences - makes me feel less alone in this regard
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post #4520 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
In 708 thread there were measurements of distortion/compression (well they are not perfect because they are in-room with sweeps, but as comparison they will do) where 708 were at the limiter and started to compress/have a lot of distortion M2 were going and going...
having 4 time woofer area helps (9 times if comparing with 705). Probably more because woofers are measured wierdly sometimes.


While distortion "part" in preference seems to be unknown and not understood, so the real answer is "zero". M2 is certainly closer to 0 than 708/705.
A test where speakers play were quite would be interesting to see for preference where distortion is not of that concern.

Also they go deeper than 708 and have a different dispersion pattern (they beam quite strong (relative to the rest of pattern) after 10 kHz, where 705/708i are flatter in their DI).
Distortion could be an issue at higher levels, I agree, but probably not an issue at lower levels? The beaming seems to be a slight blemish for the M2 and theory would seem to indicate that in this aspect the 7's should be preferred (not the other way around). But then again perhaps it makes the M2s sound more like a speaker that uses a dome tweeter as they also have similar beaming behavior? Regarding bass extension, most people would be using subs so that is probably not the reason. Anyway, just curious. I've heard the 708P's and they sounded really great to me. I could really turn them up in my room and all I got was more glorious sound. Hopefully one day I'll also get to hear the M2s.
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post #4521 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Distortion could be an issue at higher levels, I agree, but probably not an issue at lower levels? The beaming seems to be a slight blemish for the M2 and theory would seem to indicate that in this aspect the 7's should be preferred (not the other way around). But then again perhaps it makes the M2s sound more like a speaker that uses a dome tweeter as they also have similar beaming behavior? Regarding bass extension, most people would be using subs so that is probably not the reason. Anyway, just curious. I've heard the 708P's and they sounded really great to me. I could really turn them up in my room and all I got was more glorious sound. Hopefully one day I'll also get to hear the M2s.
Maybe it leads to more "bright" sound on some instruments and many people don't like how some instruments sound irl and prefer "softened" version.
For distortion the only way to know is to model 708 distortions and feed them to M2.
Should be possible with something like kemper profiling amplifier and you'll probably would need some complex measurement equipment.

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post #4522 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Perhaps keep some earmuffs handy for those times? Bit of an annoyance to have to bring them with you every time but perhaps worth it?



It's interesting that different things can affect people differently. I wonder why typing is an issue for you? The sounds level involved are pretty low. I also hate it when people speak too loud - I think this is one case where many people would feel the same.

By the way, thanks for sharing your experiences - makes me feel less alone in this regard

Soulburner's post seems like it's possibly describing a condition called "Hyperacusis," or possibly Misophonia. I sometimes suffer from Hyperacusis (comes and goes) and it's a b*tch!
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post #4523 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 10:30 AM
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Perhaps keep some earmuffs handy for those times? Bit of an annoyance to have to bring them with you every time but perhaps worth it? ...
Indeed, I do make a point of wearing my noise-isolating earbuds when I go throw glass in the recycling. This works nicely although sometimes I'm in a rush or I forget.
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post #4524 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 10:35 AM
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What it is designed to be listened off this? Should we select a manufacturer-defined axis then as on-axis?
No, on-axis means on-axis. That's it. It's a useful point of reference for taking measurements and for discussing speaker placement. You can't redefine on-axis to be something else, it would be like redefining the length of an inch or something. Manufacturers will sometimes recommend that their speakers be listened to off-axis which is way easier than trying to redefine "on-axis."
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Indeed, I do make a point of wearing my noise-isolating earbuds when I go throw glass in the recycling. This works nicely although sometimes I'm in a rush or I forget.
Are you a “low talker” too?

I have very “good” sensitive hearing and I am a low talker because of it.

If I have any kind of hearing protection or headphones on, I speak substantially louder.


I’m sure that’s one reason there is some disagreement in the way certain speakers “sound” vs others to some.


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post #4526 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 11:05 AM
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Are you a “low talker” too?

I have very “good” sensitive hearing and I am a low talker because of it.
...
No, I don't think anybody has ever told me that I'm a low talker. I think the sound of breaking glass might be quite loud. Next time I'm throwing out some bottles I'll try to remember to measure the SPL with my phone.
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Often when I read someone's interpretation of the intent of this thread I go back and carefully read the first post, trying to better understand the intent of the OP and not put my own spin on it. After you read the first post a few times little things start to stand out. While some seem to think the OP promised to post all the data, in fact he consistently says "we" (rather than "I") will post data "when available." The fact that "we" was used frequently in the first post suggests this was intended to be a collegial discussion with many participants sharing and learning from each other.

In fact, that's exactly what has happened. Many have contributed to sharing available data demonstrating "What the Science Shows" about speakers. That's what has made the thread so successful and keeps it going strong. The fact that a few are disappointed that the thread hasn't lived up to their expectations should come as no surprise. No forum thread in the history of the internet has ever completely satisfied everyone who read it and this thread is no different. Forum threads die when they outlive their usefulness and the activity in this thread over the past 24 hours alone suggests that there's no need to start thinking about funeral services.
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post #4528 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 02:58 PM
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Glad I could bring the discussion back to life RE: hearing sensitivity and loss
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post #4529 of 5313 Old 08-25-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Often when I read someone's interpretation of the intent of this thread I go back and carefully read the first post, trying to better understand the intent of the OP and not put my own spin on it. After you read the first post a few times little things start to stand out. While some seem to think the OP promised to post all the data, in fact he consistently says "we" (rather than "I") will post data "when available." The fact that "we" was used frequently in the first post suggests this was intended to be a collegial discussion with many participants sharing and learning from each other. ...
Mr. Voecks was saying "we," not "let's."

Considering his signature, I assume that when he wrote "we," he was referring to either Harman or Revel or a particular group within Revel.

Either way, it doesn't matter. He's sitting on a mountain of data. It's already "available." If he wanted to post a useful amount of it, he could. The only possible roadblock would be getting corporate permission. The charitable interpretation of the situation is that he couldn't get permission from corporate. The uncharitable interpretation is that he never intended to post a useful amount of data and only really intended to post three spinorama plots that cast his speaker brand in a positive light.

People have apparently been in touch with him to try to get this sorted out. It will be interesting to hear what happened from him directly when he circles back to this. I'm not sure why he hasn't yet. Is he still on vacation?
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post #4530 of 5313 Old 08-26-2019, 03:33 AM
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Audibility of Time Errors

I would like to know what Dr. Toole thinks of this paper:
http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur...---Kunchur.pdf
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