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post #5011 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I recorded classical music in concert halls for a living for 34 years. Everything from solo instruments to large orchestras with choirs. I would have loved to been able to have object oriented mixing and playback to capture the sense of concert hall immersion. Atmos is the ideal concept for the classical music genre. The main orchestral mics would be mixed to front L/C/R, forward and rear side mics and back surround mics would be used and sent to the appropriate surround channels (9 main "floor" channels). 4 -6 mics hung from the ceiling would go to Atmos height channels. It is the only way to capture and recreate the sound of the orchestra and the hall. I used 3-5 main mics across the front of the orchestra often employing the "Decca Tree and outriggers" technique favored by many film scoring mixers. Spot mics were used in the orchestra as needed. I hung a spaced pair of mics further back in the hall and blended them in to capture hall reverberation, but it was all mixed to stereo. I achieved good instrument balance, stereo image and direct to reverb sound ratio, but the stereo playback was all in front of me as I monitored in stereo. There was no sense of envelopment or immersion that existed when I sat in the concert hall. Atmos technology is the first time I have seen something capable of recreating the sense of "you are there in the concert hall".
Still, today, the best ever at recreating the 'space', and I have every one of them. In fact three copies of each, two still sealed and one that's used.

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post #5012 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 01:30 PM
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Well if talking about not "cost does not matter" (and most people don't buy salon2s or something like that, just look at threads here) systems you can buy a better stereo than multichannel for the same price and it is more easily placed. Will additional channels win over a quality of channels? Probably more of a budget question.
It really depends on how you define better. Budget is relevant to that consideration since, at some point in hypothetical price/value curves comparing stereo with multichannel, the return on investment flips. Below that point, stereo prevails but increasing investment returns increasingly smaller increments in performance. Above that point, expanding from stereo to multichannel returns more value proportional to expense. IMHO, of course, and highly subjective.

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post #5013 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 01:47 PM
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They've been doing exactly that for quite a few years for Auro, mainly in Europe, Norway, etc. I don't really see how Atmos changes anything if the objects are to be stationary.

Rex, do you have a short list of some of your favorites that you have done somewhere? It sounds like the type of recording that would upmix very well (obviously it wouldn't be as good as a native Auro/Atmos mix, but might be quite pleasing).
It would take me quite a while to put together, I have hundreds of CD's I recorded. They are all in a box and I'm still in the process of unpacking and getting squared away in my new house. The University of Illinois Symphonic Bands released a lot of recordings I did for them. You can contact them directly to get copies of things they may still have available, both vinyl records and CD's.

https://www.bands.illinois.edu/

Note: the video in the link is the Krannert Center Foellinger Great Hall where I did most of my work. https://krannertcenter.com/about-cen...ger-great-hall

I was not the engineer for that video production, but the guys who are there now were all my staff employees who I trained and are using the same equipment and techniques. I bought some of the best mics and mic preamps for the facilities before I retired. I think they are still doing very good work.
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post #5014 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 01:50 PM
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Thanks! I'll check those out.
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post #5015 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
It would take me quite a while to put together, I have hundreds of CD's I recorded. They are all in a box and I'm still in the process of unpacking and getting squared away in my new house. The University of Illinois Symphonic Bands released a lot of recordings I did for them. You can contact them directly to get copies of things they may still have available, both vinyl records and CD's.

https://www.bands.illinois.edu/

Note: the video in the link is the Krannert Center Foellinger Great Hall where I did most of my work. https://krannertcenter.com/about-cen...ger-great-hall

I was not the engineer for that video production, but the guys who are there now were all my staff employees who I trained and are using the same equipment and techniques. I bought some of the best mics and mic preamps for the facilities before I retired. I think they are still doing very good work.
As someone who grew up about 12 blocks from the Krannert Center and attended dozens of concerts there, I can attest both to the fine acoustics of the Great Hall and the quality of the U of I band ensembles. I'll have to see whether I can get one of those recordings. The Krannert Center was something of a miracle. It was designed during a period when there were more busts than hits--the Kennedy Center and Lincoln Center orchestra Halls being the prime offenders. Despite extensive renovations, they still haven't got those halls to work. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra used to record there because there was nothing that could match it in Chicago.
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post #5016 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
As someone who grew up about 12 blocks from the Krannert Center and attended dozens of concerts there, I can attest both to the fine acoustics of the Great Hall and the quality of the U of I band ensembles. I'll have to see whether I can get one of those recordings. The Krannert Center was something of a miracle. It was designed during a period when there were more busts than hits--the Kennedy Center and Lincoln Center orchestra Halls being the prime offenders. Despite extensive renovations, they still haven't got those halls to work. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra used to record there because there was nothing that could match it in Chicago.
Holy Cow Dennis, small world! I was fortunate to be hired to do live recordings of the CSO a few times when they performed there. They used the recordings for WFMT (Chicago) broadcasts, the tapes are still in the archives at the U of I. I'd love to hear them now, I'm pretty sure they are spectacular given the fact they were recorded with Neumann M-250's, a Studer mixing console, Studer B-62 tape machines at 15ips with Dolby A noise reduction.

Please feel free to PM me so we don't take the thread off topic. KCPA is the only Performing Arts Center of it's kind on a college campus in the US. Incredible facilities with a world class concert hall.
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post #5017 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
As someone who grew up about 12 blocks from the Krannert Center and attended dozens of concerts there, I can attest both to the fine acoustics of the Great Hall and the quality of the U of I band ensembles. I'll have to see whether I can get one of those recordings. The Krannert Center was something of a miracle. It was designed during a period when there were more busts than hits--the Kennedy Center and Lincoln Center orchestra Halls being the prime offenders. Despite extensive renovations, they still haven't got those halls to work. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra used to record there because there was nothing that could match it in Chicago.
Don't leave Dorothy Chandler out of the bust list.
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post #5018 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 08:52 PM
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Don't leave Dorothy Chandler out of the bust list.
Isn't that where the Los Angeles Opera performs? If so, I've been there a couple of times and didn't find the acoustics nearly as offensive as the wacky productions. The worst acoustics I've ever heard or played in belong to the DAR Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. Of course, that was from an earlier period, although they somehow knew what a transistor radio would sound like and meticulously duplicated it.
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post #5019 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Isn't that where the Los Angeles Opera performs? If so, I've been there a couple of times and didn't find the acoustics nearly as offensive as the wacky productions. The worst acoustics I've ever heard or played in belong to the DAR Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. Of course, that was from an earlier period, although they somehow knew what a transistor radio would sound like and meticulously duplicated it.
The worst I've ever heard was one time 30+ years ago or so when I heard Windham Hill's George Winston at Royce Hall at UCLA. To be fair, that hall was designed as a lecture hall, for speech. Jesus it was bad for music.

But yes, LA Opera uses the old mid-60s designed Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. IMO, I think the new Disney Hall is hugely better, but still not as good as many turn of the century hall such as Severance, built in 1906.
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post #5020 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 09:25 PM
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The worst I've ever heard was one time 30+ years ago or so when I heard Windham Hill's George Winston at Royce Hall at UCLA. To be fair, that hall was designed as a lecture hall, for speech. Jesus it was bad for music.

But yes, LA Opera uses the old mid-60s designed Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. IMO, I think the new Disney Hall is hugely better, but still not as good as many turn of the century hall such as Severance, built in 1906.
Oh good. We're off topic again. But at least this is more interesting (and less threatening to a bank account) than curiosities like Atmos.
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post #5021 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
The worst I've ever heard was one time 30+ years ago or so when I heard Windham Hill's George Winston at Royce Hall at UCLA. To be fair, that hall was designed as a lecture hall, for speech. Jesus it was bad for music.
Scary -- my wife and I saw George Winston there at around that time. August, 1988?

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post #5022 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 09:30 PM
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Seems to me like the market has bifurcated into HT and music systems, with HT folk less concerned about music in general, and higher-end music listeners that you'd think would be more interested in multichannel music eschewing that and most other digital playback and processing as "tainted" so they implement more "pure" two-channel rigs with little to no processing. With notable exceptions (*cough* Kal), of course. By and large IMO "elite" audiophiles and reviewers (not Kal) have done their fellow music enthusiasts a disservice by dismissing and "shaming" the digital and thus multichannel crowd. Of course the recording industry did their part by endless releases of "remastered" CDs with dynamics compressed out of them and (apparent? to me anyway) lack of support for multichannel recordings. By now I expected stereo to be pretty much dead and replaced by immersive recordings of virtually everything; instead, the opposite is true, despite the tremendous strides forward in the quality and quantity of systems that are multichannel-ready due to HT.

IMO - Don
Even multi-channel AVRs with USB inputs don't support multichannel. Perhaps, the new set of 16 channel processors will be different.
I lobbied Oppo to implement USB MCH but unfortunately, the chipset did not support it.

There seems to more DSD multi-channel media but that has may have issues with subwoofer levels match and cannot be DSP processed.
The workaround is for the source component to convert DSD to PCM.

I'm not surprised that vinyl can sound better than a digital recording with digital clipping.

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post #5023 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 10:01 PM
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But yes, LA Opera uses the old mid-60s designed Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. IMO, I think the new Disney Hall is hugely better, but still not as good as many turn of the century hall such as Severance, built in 1906.
I went to grad school at Case Western Reserve University in University Circle in Cleveland—actually got my degree in Severance Hall. I had many opportunities as a student to hear the Cleveland Symphony and many other fine orchestras and musicians there.

Even before I knew what college was, as a kid I had a stack of Cleveland and Chicago SO records I wore out on my parents’ Magnavox console stereo. I’d sneak down at night, lie on the floor with my head between the speakers, and even at low volumes it was pure bliss. However, to be at Severance a decade or so later was to fully realize the glory that was the Cleveland Symphony.

Now with M2s across the front and S4Ai surrounds and heights, the full Severance experience comes back with glorious authenticity. Severance in my home is a good deal! I may never get back to Cleveland, but I heard the Cleveland orchestra in Orange County. It was good, but it wasn’t Severance and it wasn’t as good as listening at home.

Excellently designed and tested speakers may never replace the live experience at the best halls, but great mult-speaker set ups in a good room will definitely beat the mediocre and poor music hall experience. It also beats sticking your head between two stereo speakers and trying to imagine the fullness of the concert hall experience IMO.
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post #5024 of 5358 Old 09-20-2019, 10:34 PM
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I went to grad school at Case Western Reserve University in University Circle in Cleveland—actually got my degree in Severance Hall. I had many opportunities as a student to hear the Cleveland Symphony and many other fine orchestras and musicians there.

Even before I knew what college was, as a kid I had a stack of Cleveland and Chicago SO records I wore out on my parents’ Magnavox console stereo. I’d sneak down at night, lie on the floor with my head between the speakers, and even at low volumes it was pure bliss. However, to be at Severance a decade or so later was to fully realize the glory that was the Cleveland Symphony.

Now with M2s across the front and S4Ai surrounds and heights, the full Severance experience comes back with glorious authenticity. Severance in my home is a good deal! I may never get back to Cleveland, but I heard the Cleveland orchestra in Orange County. It was good, but it wasn’t Severance and it wasn’t as good as listening at home.

Excellently designed and tested speakers may never replace the live experience at the best halls, but great mult-speaker set ups in a good room will definitely beat the mediocre and poor music hall experience. It also beats sticking your head between two stereo speakers and trying to imagine the fullness of the concert hall experience IMO.
It's a shame George Szell and the CSO never had the benefit of decent recording engineers like those responsible for the Chicago Symphony and RCA Shady Dog releases, or the Detroit and Mercury Living Presence productions. I still listen to those drab Columbia recordings for the musical content, but Columbia engineers managed to suck the life out of Severance Hall.
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I have a couple recordings of Gregorian chant by Benedictine monks in their Abbey churches.
I will say my JBL SRX835 speakers reproduce the reverb of the churches very well. One of
the recordings I have is of the Abbey where I attended college. I heard the monks in question
many times live and spent a great deal of time in the church where the album was recorded.
In spite of the deficiency of the recording, I was amazed at how good the reverb of the space

was captured. Knowing how the monks sounded live was also a advantage in judging the quality
of the production. In spite of the crude capture methods used, it was fairly true to life...so not bad.
And this just stereo. I can only imagine how modern efforts would fare.
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post #5026 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 04:43 AM
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Scary -- my wife and I saw George Winston there at around that time. August, 1988?
That would have been just about right. I was still living in the valley and hadn't moved to Palos Verdes yet so that puts it at 1987 or 88.

Do you remember if he invited folks to get up and dance?

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post #5027 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post
I went to grad school at Case Western Reserve University in University Circle in Cleveland—actually got my degree in Severance Hall. I had many opportunities as a student to hear the Cleveland Symphony and many other fine orchestras and musicians there.

Even before I knew what college was, as a kid I had a stack of Cleveland and Chicago SO records I wore out on my parents’ Magnavox console stereo. I’d sneak down at night, lie on the floor with my head between the speakers, and even at low volumes it was pure bliss. However, to be at Severance a decade or so later was to fully realize the glory that was the Cleveland Symphony.

Now with M2s across the front and S4Ai surrounds and heights, the full Severance experience comes back with glorious authenticity. Severance in my home is a good deal! I may never get back to Cleveland, but I heard the Cleveland orchestra in Orange County. It was good, but it wasn’t Severance and it wasn’t as good as listening at home.

Excellently designed and tested speakers may never replace the live experience at the best halls, but great mult-speaker set ups in a good room will definitely beat the mediocre and poor music hall experience. It also beats sticking your head between two stereo speakers and trying to imagine the fullness of the concert hall experience IMO.
Can be done with just two speakers. Happy to show you next time you're in the Central Ohio area. Can do it right now downstairs if you're available.

Agree in re Severance. Columbus has a nice venue, the Ohio theater, but not much in the way of an orchestra so off to Cleveland it was, many times per season and then in the summer at Blossom once that venue opened in the late 60s. Went with grandparents to Cleveland (we had family in the Akron Canton area) From the late 40s up until I got my license in 1960 and then on my own until I moved to SoCal in 1980
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post #5028 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
It's a shame George Szell and the CSO never had the benefit of decent recording engineers like those responsible for the Chicago Symphony and RCA Shady Dog releases, or the Detroit and Mercury Living Presence productions. I still listen to those drab Columbia recordings for the musical content, but Columbia engineers managed to suck the life out of Severance Hall.
I'm glad I was 'only' 137 miles away.
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post #5029 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 05:12 AM
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I have a couple recordings of Gregorian chant by Benedictine monks in their Abbey churches.
I will say my JBL SRX835 speakers reproduce the reverb of the churches very well. One of
the recordings I have is of the Abbey where I attended college. I heard the monks in question
many times live and spent a great deal of time in the church where the album was recorded.
In spite of the deficiency of the recording, I was amazed at how good the reverb of the space

was captured. Knowing how the monks sounded live was also a advantage in judging the quality
of the production. In spite of the crude capture methods used, it was fairly true to life...so not bad
.
And this just stereo. I can only imagine how modern efforts would fare.
Might well be worse.

One of the best, most true to life, I've heard was still the time in the early 70s when my recording engineer friend and I (I served as sort of a grunt as I really didn't know anything) recorded a famous big band that played locally at a venue named the Country Dinner Playhouse here in C-Bus using just a A77 and a (as in one) stereo mic. After at was all over and we got everything back to his house, we played back the raw unedited tape on his Magneplanars (I think it was 1Bs) and it was pretty shocking how real it all sounded. So I'm an advocate of the KISS method.
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post #5030 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 07:47 AM
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Even multi-channel AVRs with USB inputs don't support multichannel. Perhaps, the new set of 16 channel processors will be different.
Yes, an abiding issue. OTOH, the recent trends towards LAN communications bodes well for this. See the new Trinnov AVPs which can be renderers for multichannel. The new JBLs have Dante.

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post #5031 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 08:46 AM
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Yes, an abiding issue. OTOH, the recent trends towards LAN communications bodes well for this. See the new Trinnov AVPs which can be renderers for multichannel. The new JBLs have Dante.
And also we have Roon. Roon supports multi-channel so there is hope.
Still, I don't see any MCH streaming services.

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post #5032 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
That would have been just about right. I was still living in the valley and hadn't moved to Palos Verdes yet so that puts it at 1987 or 88.

Do you remember if he invited folks to get up and dance?
Must have been 1988, don't think he was there in 1987. I had to double-check; it was the year I got my MSEE from there, and upgraded my Maggies from MG-I's to MG-IIIa's to celebrate. I don't really remember much about it but the "get up and dance" comment sounds vaguely familiar; I think it got a laugh.

Back on topic: @Floyd Toole et. al. : Polk has resurrected their cross-coupled SDA approach that sends out-of-phase left and right content to the opposite speaker to cancel the crosstalk term. I have not heard the latest, but in the past I was initially impressed and even implemented a version in my own system and for some friends. After a little time it just did not sound "right" to me; it spread the soundstage in a way that seemed unnatural and compromised the center image. It also seemed to make the image "wider" but "flatter" with less sense of depth. These are old memories (I worked for a dealer that carried Polk for a while way back in the dark ages).

I am curious to hear your thoughts, and/or that of others, who might have heard the scheme? (And yes there are many other similar schemes, speaker and line-level circuits, from Hafler, Carver, etc.)

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post #5033 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 09:56 AM
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Must have been 1988, don't think he was there in 1987. I had to double-check; it was the year I got my MSEE from there, and upgraded my Maggies from MG-I's to MG-IIIa's to celebrate. I don't really remember much about it but the "get up and dance" comment sounds vaguely familiar; I think it got a laugh.
Let me look.

He was there both years. I would have gone Saturday night to avoid the traffic on the 405. I would have gone both years.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...184-story.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...302-story.html

So, we sorta met and didn't even know it !!!!!!
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post #5034 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 09:56 AM
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Talking

Cause we don't dance, we boogie!

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post #5035 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Let me look.

He was there both years. I would have gone Saturday night to avoid the traffic on the 405. I would have gone both years.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...184-story.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...302-story.html

So, we sorta met and didn't even know it !!!!!!
So we did! I am second-guessing myself now; I graduated in May or June 1988 (whenever the quarter ended, and think I was still in school when we went, so maybe it was '87. But I also seem to remember the long monologue the critic mentions in '88. Been a long time. My wife is a pianist but we both liked G.W. We also went to a Dizzy Gillespie concert at the Bowl around that time -- I went to a "masterclass" he gave that afternoon at UCLA (IIRC) and that was quite an experience.

Is it even possible to avoid the traffic on 405? Rhetorical question... I drove from El Segundo to UCLA several days a week for several years (working full time plus fellowship to get my degree) at all times of night day day. Sometimes it was less grid-locked...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

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post #5036 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 10:28 AM
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And also we have Roon. Roon supports multi-channel so there is hope.
Still, I don't see any MCH streaming services.
Qobuz over Roon supports MCH streaming. It really works.
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post #5037 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 10:29 AM
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@Floyd Toole et. al. : Polk has resurrected their cross-coupled SDA approach that sends out-of-phase left and right content to the opposite speaker to cancel the crosstalk term. I have not heard the latest, but in the past I was initially impressed and even implemented a version in my own system and for some friends. After a little time it just did not sound "right" to me; it spread the soundstage in a way that seemed unnatural and compromised the center image. It also seemed to make the image "wider" but "flatter" with less sense of depth. These are old memories (I worked for a dealer that carried Polk for a while way back in the dark ages).

I am curious to hear your thoughts, and/or that of others, who might have heard the scheme? (And yes there are many other similar schemes, speaker and line-level circuits, from Hafler, Carver, etc.)
I have heard the new ones and I felt the same way about them.
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post #5038 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
So we did! I am second-guessing myself now; I graduated in May or June 1988 (whenever the quarter ended, and think I was still in school when we went, so maybe it was '87. But I also seem to remember the long monologue the critic mentions in '88. Been a long time. My wife is a pianist but we both liked G.W. We also went to a Dizzy Gillespie concert at the Bowl around that time -- I went to a "masterclass" he gave that afternoon at UCLA (IIRC) and that was quite an experience.

Is it even possible to avoid the traffic on 405? Rhetorical question... I drove from El Segundo to UCLA several days a week for several years (working full time plus fellowship to get my degree) at all times of night day day. Sometimes it was less grid-locked...
It would have been a Saturday night though. Friday night I went to the old car hangout at Bob's in Toluca Lake at Riverside and Pass.

When I looked up the LA Times reviews, I remembered elements of both years and that's something I would have gone to both years. Jeez, I just get over New Wave and right into New Age ….. from B52s to George Winston !!!

Did you also go to the UCLA Memorial Day Weekend jazz and reggae festival? Had I met you on Reggae day, I would have had a very good excuse for not remembering you

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post #5039 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 10:35 AM
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It would have been a Saturday night though. Friday night I went to the old car hangout at Bob's in Toluca Lake at Riverside and Pass.

When I looked up the LA Times reviews, I remembered elements of both years and that's something I would have gone to both years. Jeez, I just get over New Wave and right into New Age ….. from B52s to George Winston !!!

Did you also go to the UCLA Memorial Day Weekend jazz and reggae festival? Had I met you on Reggae day, I would have had a very good reason for not remembering you
Yes, Saturday -- no way would I fight that traffic on a Friday night (I lived and worked in El Segundo, wife in Redondo Beach). I was never really into Reggae but did go to some jazz concerts, can't recall which ones. Then as now my workweek didn't provide a lot of free time and weekends I was more likely to head out of town up to the mountains.
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post #5040 of 5358 Old 09-21-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

@Floyd Toole et. al. : Polk has resurrected their cross-coupled SDA approach that sends out-of-phase left and right content to the opposite speaker to cancel the crosstalk term. I have not heard the latest, but in the past I was initially impressed and even implemented a version in my own system and for some friends. After a little time it just did not sound "right" to me; it spread the soundstage in a way that seemed unnatural and compromised the center image. It also seemed to make the image "wider" but "flatter" with less sense of depth. These are old memories (I worked for a dealer that carried Polk for a while way back in the dark ages).

I am curious to hear your thoughts, and/or that of others, who might have heard the scheme? (And yes there are many other similar schemes, speaker and line-level circuits, from Hafler, Carver, etc.)
I was in the 3rd seat back of the row of center seats at RMAF and although they did throw a huge “soundstage/image” I felt like there was something “musically” missing..

Chris
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