How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 169 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5041 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Yes, Saturday -- no way would I fight that traffic on a Friday night (I lived and worked in El Segundo, wife in Redondo Beach). I was never really into Reggae but did go to some jazz concerts, can't recall which ones. Then as now my workweek didn't provide a lot of free time and weekends I was more likely to head out of town up to the mountains.
Same. I worked in the South Bay and still lived in the Valley at that time (until 1990 and then moved to RPV). No way I was going to do a back and forth on the 405 to and from work and then go back down again for the performance on a Friday night.
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post #5042 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
I was in the 3rd seat back of the row of center seats at RMAF and although they did throw a huge “soundstage/image” I felt like there was something “musically” missing..

Chris
I probably heard the Polks at AXPONA, but remember nothing of it one way or the other. At this point, I only recall the really bad or the really good.

Someone trying to successfully pull this off would have been of great interest to me so I'm sure I would gone for a listen, but I'm blank.
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post #5043 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I probably heard the Polks at AXPONA, but remember nothing of it one way or the other. At this point, I only recall the really bad or the really good.

Someone trying to successfully pull this off would have been of great interest to me so I'm sure I would gone for a listen, but I'm blank.
They were introduced at RMAF I believe.
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post #5044 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Qobuz over Roon supports MCH streaming. It really works.
That's fantastic. I have been thinking about Qobuz for Roon.
Even at $500 lifetime, Roon (and others) are better choices for whole house streaming than wiring in from an AVR/processor.

A friend has Roon and Tidal. They have done a wonderful job. Suddenly your music library includes a vast collection that is well organized using their interface.
Eventually, I will pick a service and it will be Roon or Amazon (if Roon supports it).

When given a choice, I will not buy products with MQA.

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post #5045 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
They were introduced at RMAF I believe.
I'll look for this next year at AXPONA. This, if successful, would be of great interest to me. I just can't imagine Polk pulling this off. Right now, it's use a line source with narrow dispersion, high directivity and can still get there.

And in re next year, maybe I'll skip AXPONA and do RMAF and make a trip out of it. Since I'm trying to clear off my bucket list before I choke and croak, start a trip with Burning Man, then road trip the west one more time then culminating with RMAF before heading back home. Burning Man a must before I turn 80.
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post #5046 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Yes and no. Practicality is certainly a factor but the lack of penetration of multichannel music over the past 2 decades corresponds with the flowering of home theater. Whether ATMOS (and similar) will achieve similar home acceptance and will that change anything about general interest in music over such systems is unknown. I see the mass market for HT as quite distinct from the mass market for music.

Indeed.

The argument from some 2 channel devotees seems to be 'stereo is easier, for satisfying the listener'.

But for many, a single 'loudspeaker' (or a small pair attached to a compute) on a tabletop is easier still....and that's what most people are using today, apart from earbuds. This includes young folks for whom music listening is an important part in their life. The activity of sitting down to devote time to listen to music over a pair of bookshelf-or-larger sizes loudspeakers driven by an dedicated receiver/amplifier, is now highly niche, to put it nicely.

Video viewing is going the same way, btw. It's easier, and to increasing numbers of people, satisfying, to watch something on your portable device -- laptop, tablet, even phone-- than to devote a TV (much less a TV + separates system) to it.

This is the road 'practicality' takes you down.

(That said the 'lack of penetration of multichannel music' is a matter of perspective. Every home theater system in existence -- the vast majority assembled in order to watch movies and TV -- also play 'multichannel music' any time someone watches a performance video, or a movie/show with music. What has been a harder sell is multichannel music sans visual component.)

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post #5047 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I'll look for this next year at AXPONA. This, if successful, would be of great interest to me. I just can't imagine Polk pulling this off. Right now, it's use a line source with narrow dispersion, high directivity and can still get there.

And in re next year, maybe I'll skip AXPONA and do RMAF and make a trip out of it. Since I'm trying to clear off my bucket list before I choke and croak, start a trip with Burning Man, then road trip the west one more time then culminating with RMAF before heading back home. Burning Man a must before I turn 80.
Funny because I thought of you when hearing these.

Don’t get me wrong, there was some enjoyment and maybe it was the song clip choices but it was a little “gimmicky” to me.

I’d need more time with them before I considered them for purchase.
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post #5048 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
(That said the 'lack of penetration of multichannel music' is a matter of perspective. Every home theater system in existence -- the vast majority assembled in order to watch movies and TV -- also play 'multichannel music' any time someone watches a performance video, or a movie/show with music. What has been a harder sell is multichannel music sans visual component.)
Of course. When we talk about multichannel music, we are not talking about movies/shows. Performance video, where the music is the co-equal or main component, is another story.

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"Music in the Round"
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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #5049 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 02:49 PM
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JBL SP8II - How does the speaker sound? Any Spinorama available?

I am looking for a pair (or 4) Atmos speakers. Has anyone used them and how did they sound?

How does it compare with Revel C263? Similar prices.

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post #5050 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
JBL SP8II - How does the speaker sound? Any Spinorama available?

I am looking for a pair (or 4) Atmos speakers. Has anyone used them and how did they sound?
I'm sure JBL doesn't make any "bad" speakers at this point, but the specs on those are questionable:

Frequency Response: 30Hz - 20kHz

Sure, if it's 10-20 dB down.

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post #5051 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 03:05 PM
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Must have been 1988, don't think he was there in 1987. I had to double-check; it was the year I got my MSEE from there, and upgraded my Maggies from MG-I's to MG-IIIa's to celebrate. I don't really remember much about it but the "get up and dance" comment sounds vaguely familiar; I think it got a laugh.

Back on topic: @Floyd Toole et. al. : Polk has resurrected their cross-coupled SDA approach that sends out-of-phase left and right content to the opposite speaker to cancel the crosstalk term. I have not heard the latest, but in the past I was initially impressed and even implemented a version in my own system and for some friends. After a little time it just did not sound "right" to me; it spread the soundstage in a way that seemed unnatural and compromised the center image. It also seemed to make the image "wider" but "flatter" with less sense of depth. These are old memories (I worked for a dealer that carried Polk for a while way back in the dark ages).

I am curious to hear your thoughts, and/or that of others, who might have heard the scheme? (And yes there are many other similar schemes, speaker and line-level circuits, from Hafler, Carver, etc.)
This is just a simplistic variation in the large catalog of acoustic-crosstalk-cancelling schemes. None of them work perfectly for an individual listener because strongly individualistic HRTFs are involved, but all of them deliver an "effect". If the crosstalk is perfectly cancelled, and some of the electronic versions come close, what happens is that the speakers "disappear" and the soundstage is extended from 90 deg L to 90 deg R - impressive and attention getting but . . . it is not what was intended by the creators of the art. Even imperfect implementations certainly add "space" and if one likes the effect, go for it. I don't.

It all originates with the never ending quest to improve on the directionally and spatially hobbled stereo system we are forced to live with. For me multichannel upmixing is vastly preferable, certainly preferable to "crosstalk cancelling speakers" in which the effect cannot be adjusted or turned up, down or off. The speaker is not the place to do this kind of processing.

All that said, and I have related this story before in one of these threads, one of the very best renderings of stereo involved crosstalk cancelling. It was in the Harman VMAx system of the early nineties. In this version, the crosstalk was cancelled, resulting in relatively independent delivery of each channel to the appropriate ear. This done, phantom "speakers" were synthesized at the +/- 30 deg locations (the real speakers in this case were at +/- 10 deg). With the real speakers "gone" the synthesized speakers delivered whatever was in the recordings. The sense of distance was enormous, extending outside the room boundaries when appropriate. The sense of space was impressive in classical works, but the soundstage itself was correctly dimensioned at +/- 30 deg. This can only be done electronically.
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post #5052 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 03:23 PM
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4 days ago I put my collection of 65 DVD-audio/SACD discs for sale on craigslist for the simple fact that I just don't listen to them much at all anymore. 2-channel via roon is the bulk of my listening now...with vinyl a close second.

you are absolutely right tho...these discs sound phenomenal!! Maybe I'd better rethink my decision before it's too late.
Yes, my SACDs and DVD-As were collecting dust, too, until I started using Roon. Having ripped them into the library, they integrate seamlessly into playback with 2-channel material. No need to compromise quality for convenience.
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post #5053 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 05:03 PM
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I know this is a bit off topic...but it is still relevant to those wanting maximum performance.
Dr. Toole, first thank you very much for what you have done for the state of the art. You advanced it.
A lot.


And now my question...Have you ever performed blind tests of what level of distortion
is perceptible or at what level it is unacceptable? I have heard for years that over 1% to 10%
was the cut point. Do you have any insight into this?


Again thank you for what you have done...I am very grateful for it. I am sorry if you have covered
this before and I missed it. Thanks again and very best wishes!


I have not yet purchased your book so forgive me if it is covered there.


I will buy it soon. Unfortunately my soon to be 16 year old is eating into my spending!
Between gifts for her birthday and her learning to drive...I am not able to buy whatever I
want! Thanks again!
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post #5054 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cistercian View Post
I know this is a bit off topic...but it is still relevant to those wanting maximum performance.
Dr. Toole, first thank you very much for what you have done for the state of the art. You advanced it.
A lot.


And now my question...Have you ever performed blind tests of what level of distortion
is perceptible or at what level it is unacceptable? I have heard for years that over 1% to 10%
was the cut point. Do you have any insight into this?


Again thank you for what you have done...I am very grateful for it. I am sorry if you have covered
this before and I missed it. Thanks again and very best wishes!


I have not yet purchased your book so forgive me if it is covered there.


I will buy it soon. Unfortunately my soon to be 16 year old is eating into my spending!
Between gifts for her birthday and her learning to drive...I am not able to buy whatever I
want! Thanks again!
You can check this out in the meantime: The Audibility of Distortion At Bass Frequencies
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post #5055 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cistercian View Post
I know this is a bit off topic...but it is still relevant to those wanting maximum performance.
Dr. Toole, first thank you very much for what you have done for the state of the art. You advanced it.
A lot.


And now my question...Have you ever performed blind tests of what level of distortion
is perceptible or at what level it is unacceptable? I have heard for years that over 1% to 10%
was the cut point. Do you have any insight into this?
The preference algorithm that predicts subjective preference through the Spinorama uses bass extension, Narrow band deviation on-axis and predicted in room response smoothness and PIR narrow band deviation in the formula and says it accounts for 99% of the variance. Basically, distortion isn't going to affect sound quality unless you're trying to use 3" Bose cubes to produce reference levels.
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post #5056 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:16 PM
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copied from revel thread....legit question....

I would be interested in how the size of a room is engineered for by the speaker designers...sry if covered before...

for example my space which is open floor single story house where 50x30ft is all open, I can walk around the floorplan and easily have entire half of room 10+ db down...but still have locked center image. so then I think back to how speakers are measured and I thought the mics were pretty close for spins. I assume it just takes bigger speakers and more power.

so my question then gets back to filling a room with sound and how do I determine that other than buying and listening? this isnt what sounds the best question, but more along the lines of filling a space the best. Im quite happy with tiny bookshelves in my office with a sub, listening from 3-4ft away.

is this why people like multichannel music so much? just curious on a bit of science and design vs size of space. are the bookshelves and towers measured for the same size space?

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post #5057 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post

so my question then gets back to filling a room with sound and how do I determine that other than buying and listening? this isnt what sounds the best question, but more along the lines of filling a space the best. Im quite happy with tiny bookshelves in my office with a sub, listening from 3-4ft away.
"Filling a room" is most difficult in the bass frequencies, which is remedied by however many subs is necessary for your size room. As far as frequencies above about 100Hz, that is really dependent on your listening distance in my opinion. I think witih 2 or 4 subwoofers, bookshelves could fill a decently large space.
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post #5058 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:24 PM
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"Filling a room" is most difficult in the bass frequencies, which is remedied by however many subs is necessary for your size room. As far as frequencies above about 100Hz, that is really dependent on your listening distance in my opinion. I think witih 2 or 4 subwoofers, bookshelves could fill a decently large space.
I think filling a room is very desirable. my speakers dont fill my room and take bass out of equation.

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post #5059 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:27 PM
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I think filling a room is very desirable. my speakers dont fill my room and take bass out of equation.
If you're not talking about bass, the only other variable is dispersion. Are you talking about your Focals or another speaker?
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post #5060 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:29 PM
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If you're not talking about bass, the only other variable is dispersion. Are you talking about your Focals or another speaker?
well....none of my 10+ speakers fill the room. Im talking about science of a spin. what am I looking for? to fill my space

if I listen nearfield I can be completely happy....but if I get up and walk 10 feet away....what measurement shows me this is right choice?

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post #5061 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
well....none of my 10+ speakers fill the room. Im talking about science of a spin. what am I looking for? to fill my space

if I listen nearfield I can be completely happy....but if I get up and walk 10 feet away....what measurement shows me this is right choice?
You're looking for a slowly rising directivity index, like in the F228 Spin below or any of the Ultima2 series.

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post #5062 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 06:42 PM
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You're looking for a slowly rising directivity index, like in the F228 Spin below or any of the Ultima2 series.
so if directivity index is slowly rising, will it matter the size of speaker?

ya know my 5 grand speakers or 200 dollar speakers....does this index reflect size of room?

which leads to distance mics are placed for spins? is 30 inch placement distance of mic to speaker best for all room sizes?

what science leads to best mic placement for room size?

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the reason for questions is to find my next upgrade speaker...so Im thinking 10-20k....thats not throw away money for me...so it is important to find something that can fill a huge room from more than 1 seat.

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post #5064 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:04 PM
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the reason for questions is to find my next upgrade speaker...so Im thinking 10-20k....thats not throw away money for me...so it is important to find something that can fill a huge room from more than 1 seat.
Maybe a pair of JBL M2's or Salon 2's? I think for you I'd lean towards the M2's. Wonder if anyone has a pair nearby to you? Maybe ask in the M2 thread.
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post #5065 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:07 PM
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Maybe a pair of JBL M2's or Salon 2's? I think for you I'd lean towards the M2's. Wonder if anyone has a pair nearby to you? Maybe ask in the M2 thread.
I have inquired about salon 2's and they on radar. I am concerned about concept of spl (not counting bass/subs) being equal in most possible of space.

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post #5066 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:09 PM
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the dilemma is almost like the center image being locked is a bad thing unless in center space.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #5067 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:10 PM
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I have inquired about salon 2's and they on radar. I am concerned about concept of spl (not counting bass/subs) being equal in most possible of space.
I'm thinking the limitless headroom you are after might be more suited to the M2's. Maybe someone within a day trip would be willing to demo them. I'd sure want to hear them in person for that kind of coin. I understand what you mean though as far as getting the most even sound throughout the room. I'm not sure which design would be better suited for that goal. I know really good waveguides can help with very even response across very wide angles. I still think the extra headroom and dynamics that the M2 is likely to offer would be a strong consideration for you.

Last edited by bear123; 09-21-2019 at 07:14 PM.
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post #5068 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:12 PM
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so if directivity index is slowly rising, will it matter the size of speaker?

ya know my 5 grand speakers or 200 dollar speakers....does this index reflect size of room?

which leads to distance mics are placed for spins? is 30 inch placement distance of mic to speaker best for all room sizes?

what science leads to best mic placement for room size?
You're looking for wide dispersion, so a slowly increasing directivity index shows that. It should fill your room more evenly.
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post #5069 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:22 PM
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salon 2 directivity avg looks a few db better than bookshelve speakers by focal....I want better evidence than a few db I think...think...



need more research to make decision than directivity index I think...appreciate all thoughts.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #5070 of 5354 Old 09-21-2019, 07:29 PM
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the graphs from soundstage are 1k focal aria bookshelves which I know wont work in my space vs 22k salon 2's which may work...but from measurements Im not sure

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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