How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 179 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5341 of 5367 Old 11-08-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bearr48 View Post
Has anyone heard these yet, any comments and/or reviews, spin data, anything? Curious: They may be the sought-after great speakers that mate with a good sub?
When Kali posts Spinorama data for Kali IN-8, then I will be all for them.

So far it is strange, they did post CLF data for LP6, but that data is both too low resolution and not really suitable for Spinorama. I am expecting more from Charles Sprinkle.
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post #5342 of 5367 Old 11-09-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
Oh nice, looks like they are finally available!
Have you placed an order? It looks like they are in stock at Sweetwater.

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post #5343 of 5367 Old 11-09-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Have you placed an order? It looks like they are in stock at Sweetwater.
What is the return period at Sweetwater? As soon as Thanksgiving rolls around, I'm basically travelling straight through New Year's (family is spread out across the nation, like a bunch of nomads, lol.)
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post #5344 of 5367 Old 11-09-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
You can rest assured that there is no reverberant sound above 10 kHz - it is "all" direct sound. So, it is essential to orient whatever mic you use to be flat on the axis along which the direct sound arrives.
Can't get my head around it - aren't there reflections coming from all sides, especially if a speaker have a wide beamwidth on high frequencies? Or they just have much less effect than a direct sound so they can be ignored?
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post #5345 of 5367 Old 11-09-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
What is the return period at Sweetwater? As soon as Thanksgiving rolls around, I'm basically travelling straight through New Year's (family is spread out across the nation, like a bunch of nomads, lol.)
Not sure. I have never bought anything from them.

It looks like an interesting speaker. I can't wait to see the spins on it.

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post #5346 of 5367 Old 11-09-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Can't get my head around it - aren't there reflections coming from all sides, especially if a speaker have a wide beamwidth on high frequencies? Or they just have much less effect than a direct sound so they can be ignored?
"Reverberation" (and "diffuse") are acoustic jargon. I imagine you're using the term casually.

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post #5347 of 5367 Old 11-11-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Can't get my head around it - aren't there reflections coming from all sides, especially if a speaker have a wide beamwidth on high frequencies? Or they just have much less effect than a direct sound so they can be ignored?
Higher-frequency sound is more easily absorbed. I assume Dr. Toole means that anything over 10 kHz will be absorbed by whatever it hits first in your room. Carpet, drywall, etc. So no, it wouldn't reflect.
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post #5348 of 5367 Old 11-11-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Higher-frequency sound is more easily absorbed. I assume Dr. Toole means that anything over 10 kHz will be absorbed by whatever it hits first in your room. Carpet, drywall, etc. So no, it wouldn't reflect.
I thought about that too.
But I was just in a situation of quite literally a "concrete cuboid" kind of room and was wondering how to measure that with a microphone, there are certainly ARE reflections.
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post #5349 of 5367 Old 11-11-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
I thought about that too.
But I was just in a situation of quite literally a "concrete cuboid" kind of room and was wondering how to measure that with a microphone, there are certainly ARE reflections.
Not only is there abundant high-frequency absorption in most normal rooms, there is also high frequency air attenuation, and the inverse-square law, both of which affect reflections more than direct sound because of the much longer propagation distances. Concrete reverberation chambers are less reverberant at high frequencies because of this.

Add in the high-frequency directivity of loudspeakers and there cannot be much in the way of a high-frequency "reverberant" or reflective sound field in anything resembling a sensible listening room. The direct sound is dominant. See Figure 5.4 in the 3rd edition.

QED
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post #5350 of 5367 Old 11-11-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Not only is there abundant high-frequency absorption in most normal rooms, there is also high frequency air attenuation, and the inverse-square law, both of which affect reflections more than direct sound because of the much longer propagation distances. Concrete reverberation chambers are less reverberant at high frequencies because of this.

Add in the high-frequency directivity of loudspeakers and there cannot be much in the way of a high-frequency "reverberant" or reflective sound field in anything resembling a sensible listening room. The direct sound is dominant. See Figure 5.4 in the 3rd edition.

QED
I think I get it now.
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post #5351 of 5367 Old 11-11-2019, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Not only is there abundant high-frequency absorption in most normal rooms, there is also high frequency air attenuation, and the inverse-square law, both of which affect reflections more than direct sound because of the much longer propagation distances. Concrete reverberation chambers are less reverberant at high frequencies because of this.

Add in the high-frequency directivity of loudspeakers and there cannot be much in the way of a high-frequency "reverberant" or reflective sound field in anything resembling a sensible listening room. The direct sound is dominant. See Figure 5.4 in the 3rd edition.

QED
Wouldn't this imply there is less danger in using "room correction" to EQ 10 kHz and up, since that will be mostly direct sound?

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post #5352 of 5367 Old 11-12-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Wouldn't this imply there is less danger in using "room correction" to EQ 10 kHz and up, since that will be mostly direct sound?
If it's mostly direct sound, then you're doing speaker correction, not room correction (hence why you have it in quotes). Do your speakers need correcting? Is there a problem with their direct sound?
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post #5353 of 5367 Old 11-12-2019, 05:37 PM
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If it's mostly direct sound, then you're doing speaker correction, not room correction (hence why you have it in quotes). Do your speakers need correcting? Is there a problem with their direct sound?
Yes, that is the implication I was getting at. We would then be correcting the speakers, which is what Floyd advocates over making decisions based on reflections. In my experience, I get far better results raising or lowering the top end of a speaker this way than with tone controls.

1. Tone controls are inflexible
2. Tone controls change the character of the sound, adding undesirable coloration
3. Tone controls only apply to the front left and right speakers on most equipment

Much better to shelve the treble, in my experience. And when you have surrounds and/or heights that are of a different make than your mains, EQ is the best tool to bring them in line with each other. Say your surrounds are duller or brighter than your mains - match their response curve to your mains.
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post #5354 of 5367 Old 11-12-2019, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Value can be perceived by those creating marketing claims as well as those reading them.
Perceived Value is the essence of marketing. Especially in the audio world.


Most (but not all) marketeers don't believe their own puffery. Some of the most effective ones do, though.
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post #5355 of 5367 Old 11-13-2019, 12:50 PM
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It takes a believer to make a believer? Of course hard to tell what some of them actually believe...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5356 of 5367 Old 11-13-2019, 12:53 PM
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Perceived Value is the essence of marketing. Especially in the audio world.


Most (but not all) marketeers don't believe their own puffery. Some of the most effective ones do, though.
I wish that weren't true...but I'd bet it probably is. I mean, if you believe your own B.S. then you're just a complete B.S. artist and should only be able to fool the foolish. At least if you don't believe it, you can dig out when someone recognizes you're deep in it, lol.

I find any time someone tries to sell me something, if they are hyperbolic I shut them off. At the very least I try not to let it sway me. I'll consciously try to substantiate their claims or look for additional reasons not to deal further with them. Unfortunately, I feel most people just like the hyperbole. Me, it puts me on my guard pretty quickly. Worse, I'll often just go with it, while passive aggressively just thinking, "this guy is so full of it" and trying to find a polite way out of the whole thing. They probably go away thinking they've got a sucker on the hook, but I never call them back.

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post #5357 of 5367 Old 11-13-2019, 01:38 PM
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It takes a believer to make a believer? Of course hard to tell what some of them actually believe...
In persuasion, displays of conviction are convincing. Which are easier if the persuader him/herself is also convinced. Goes for salesmanship, dating, politics, etc.


The old joke goes like this:

"Marketing is just about screwing the customer, isn't it?

"No. Marketing's job is to hold on to the customer so that Sales can screw him."
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post #5358 of 5367 Old 11-15-2019, 04:03 AM
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^so true!^

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post #5359 of 5367 Old 11-20-2019, 10:20 PM
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I enjoy playing with budget gear and over time the gear has gotten a bunch better.

Anyway I've read / listened to several review of these and just ordered a pair to be delivered Friday.

https://www.amazon.com/Kali-Audio-LP...s%2C158&sr=8-1

From what I understand, it's an ex or retired JBL engineer named Dick Trickle and several co-workers.

I don't know yet if its hype or real, but they spend much bandwidth in their marketing material talking about '3D imaging' so they're speaking to me. After hearing the 'new' JBL L100 at AXPONA and thinking these folks likely had something to do with it, I thought that maybe it's worth trying.

Anyway, this is speaker pair number ten in this house at the moment so very curious to see how these do for budget speakers. The real goal come next spring is a pair of powered speakers for the garage so I'm not wasting valuable shelf space for a receiver or amp. Plus, I have found that with music on, I throw far fewer tools.

We'll see come Friday.
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post #5360 of 5367 Old 11-20-2019, 10:29 PM
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post #5361 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM
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... From what I understand, it's an ex or retired JBL engineer named Dick Trickle and several co-workers. ...
The late Dick Trickle was a NASCAR racer. Charles Sprinkle is the ex-principal systems engineer at JBL Professional who started Kali Audio. Most reviews to date rate the Kali LP speakers as at least comparable in performance to the JBL 3 Series MkII speakers.
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post #5362 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
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The late Dick Trickle was a NASCAR racer. Charles Sprinkle is the ex-principal systems engineer at JBL Professional who started Kali Audio. Most reviews to date rate the Kali LP speakers as at least comparable in performance to the JBL 3 Series MkII speakers.
Damn me on names. I know well who Dick Trickle is being a big fan of NASCAR's early years. NOT a fan of the last 20 or 30 years though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Trickle

Getting bad when I get names mixed up from my two primary hobbies
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post #5363 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM
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If these are good, these will replace Elacs as gifts given that they're powered so a smart phone or tablet, etc., is all one need to get started in decent budget audio.

Plus, I like a variety of good equipment in the house to keep me in balance so I don't get too accustomed to any one type of speakers or another associated equipment.

I'm still using my nearly 40 years Sequerras Met 7s in the garage and these can replace those. Spend a lot of time in the garage during nice weather so gotta have tunes out there too.
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post #5364 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM
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... If ever two names were interchangeable. I give you a pass on this one.
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post #5365 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 05:25 PM
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Lol, Sprinkle Trickle!

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post #5366 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 07:00 PM
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... If ever two names were interchangeable. I give you a pass on this one.
One syllable first names and two syllable last names and the Sprinkle vs Trickle, yeah. Always felt sorry for Dick Trickle though …. last name, first name then clap.

Plus, I have 11 single tenant absolute net deals going in nine states and all will have loans on them so its been 18 hour day after 18 hour day so I'm just mush. When you combine buyer, seller (on the listing side everyone is in three to six man teams), brokers, lenders, title companies, insurers, 3rd party providers, there are emails with a CC list of 40 - 50 peeps. It's telling me that I'm long past my 'use by date'. Time to become a greeter at Walmart.

It all does mean some coin for new equipment and maybe a few 50s or 60s collector cars.

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post #5367 of 5367 Old Yesterday, 07:06 PM
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Lol, Sprinkle Trickle!
.

Feel sorry for Trickle as a kid ….. Trickle, Dick.
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