How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4280Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 12:32 PM
Member
 
Floyd Toole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: California
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 2517
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
This appears to be an educational thread with a strong marketing undertone.

I fully agree that Revel is a great product (my small part time AV op has considered the line) as well as having respected industry staff.

But it is like Revel is the standard others are compared to in essence of this thread. At least that is my take.

Samsung/HARMAN has the $$$ to test as many speakers as they would like. Inside trading and accommodation deals are common.

Has any tested speaker ever “beat” a Revel? Is testing room and method tilted in anyway? Is the testing room part of the design department and engineering where Revel speakers are tweaked?
Your comments and questions relate to a 50 year research effort that I began as a government research scientist at the National Research Council of Canada. After 26 years of research and publications - not funded by a specific corporation or brand, I accepted an offer to join Harman International as Corporate VP Acoustical Engineering in 1991, and incorporate the scientific method into product design. As an unexpected bonus I was allowed to set up a corporate research group - not attached to any brand - to continue the scientific investigations, and to publish the results for all to see. You will find many papers by me and my colleagues in AES journals and preprints. The product of the research group was knowledge, not products. Remarkably, not all Harman products over the years have taken advantage of the science - such is the short sightedness of sales and marketing. Revel is a brand that believes in the scientific method, where double-blind listening provides guidance - how things sound is the driving force - and detailed correlations with comprehensive and accurate measurements follow that guidance. Starting with "neutral" loudspeakers is essential. Resonance and distortion free sound is a necessary foundation. Beyond that tone controls can provide compensation for variable recordings, personal preferences, etc.

So, yes, Revel loudspeakers figure prominently in these discussions because they exemplify the results of 50 years of research. The results of that research is in my books and numerous AES papers - it is in the public domain. Anyone can follow it if they choose to and thereby join the growing population of excellent, i.e. neutral, loudspeakers.

I have been accused in these forums of being a salesman for Revel, JBL, etc. Truly, as a scientist, I am a salesman for the scientific method, and the reproducible data that issue therefrom; something that is forever. Opinions come and go, but everybody is welcome to one

Although Samsung owns Harman, Harman still operates substantially independently - including budget, so the mass of money in Korea is not accessible to loudspeaker engineers in Northridge California. Things may or may not change.
RichB, pheroy, SteveH and 31 others like this.
Floyd Toole is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 12:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 3,934
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked: 403
In all due respect, R E L A X.

I stated it turned into a marketing thread IMHO starting with post 4.

I have not questioned the content provided nor the OP (as I have stated my post that you quoted).

Has any other speaker company met this standard or produce the desired performance your research unveiled other than Revel.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #63 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 12:51 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 11,536
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1097 Post(s)
Liked: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
This appears to be an educational thread with a strong marketing undertone.

I fully agree that Revel is a great product (my small part time AV op has considered the line) as well as having respected industry staff.

But it is like Revel is the standard others are compared to in essence of this thread. At least that is my take.

Samsung/HARMAN has the $$$ to test as many speakers as they would like. Inside trading and accommodation deals are common.

Has any tested speaker ever “beat” a Revel? Is testing room and method tilted in anyway? Is the testing room part of the design department and engineering where Revel speakers are tweaked?
Are the "trained" listeners trained by Harmon? Are they Harmon employees? Does anyone besides me see the potential for inherent bias in this process? Good science is repeatable and verifiable by other researchers. Has the concept of trained listeners ever been tested and verified by independent researchers in different labs?


Harmon has used their trained listeners to verify that monophonic testing is valid when evaluating speakers designed primarily for use in multi-speaker systems. Has any other lab ever verified this finding, either with trained or untrained listeners?



All of Harmon's in-house research is built upon the building blocks of their own in-house research. If outside, independent researchers were able to verify those building blocks, I would like too read those papers. I will admit that I am not familiar enough with this literature. Can anyone provide it?



Craig
PrimeTime and Scotth3886 like this.

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System
craig john is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 12:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1,297
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 829 Post(s)
Liked: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
This appears to be an educational thread with a strong marketing undertone.

I fully agree that Revel is a great product (my small part time AV op has considered the line) as well as having respected industry staff.

But it is like Revel is the standard others are compared to in essence of this thread. At least that is my take.

Samsung/HARMAN has the $$$ to test as many speakers as they would like. Inside trading and accommodation deals are common.

Has any tested speaker ever “beat” a Revel? Is testing room and method tilted in anyway? Is the testing room part of the design department and engineering where Revel speakers are tweaked?

Kevin has gone to a lot of effort and worked hard for a very long time to get the information in this post approved and released. John and I have been on the sidelines cheering him on. He is making every effort to NOT make this thread about marketing Revel or JBL products. It's about the science of designing loudspeakers and learning how to make an informed decision when buying them. The science is published in AES Journals and is peer reviewed. The room and testing methodology is not "tilted" in any way to favor one product over another. The listening tests are double blind. It turns out that most people prefer loudspeakers that are accurate, i.e, tonally neutral with flat on and off axis response. Revel designs their speakers based on what the research shows (see title of thread).

Folks often get it backwards. Revel speakers were designed based on the decades of research done by Dr. Toole, Dr. Olive, Kevin Voecks and others. They worked on developing and understanding the measurements and listening methodology to see how they correlated to listener preference. Lots of statistical analysis (I did not care much for statistics when I took that course in college, lol). Dr. Harman wanted to build loudspeakers based on a scientific approach. It did not happen overnight. Look at the timeline: https://revelspeakers.com/about-revel.html The Ultima2 Series did not happen until 10 years after the company was founded. The first series of speakers were based on insight from the team, but it took a decade of research and testing to come up with the Salon2. And, if you look at the JBL M2, it was not released until 2013 and the LSR 7 series came after that based on the M2. There is a lot of R&D going on, all based on the the work of a lot dedicated and talented individuals who care about the science of loudspeaker design. Dr. Toole points out that the knowledge to build good loudspeakers has been around for many years. It's a shame there are not more companies building them. Too many do not meet the basic criteria of sounding good and measuring well. Some companies have adopted the measuring procedures (the spinorama) but just recently. The standard was adopted in 2015. Took a while to catch on...

And no, Harman does not have unlimited funds to buy and test every loudspeaker on the market. At one point earlier this year, I tried to help work out a deal to borrow a speaker to measure because the annual budget for purchasing speakers to be measured was used up! No speaker has ever beaten the Salon2. That is why it has not been updated or replaced. The MLL (multichannel listening lab) has some acoustic treatment to allow for the test method to not be overly impacted by room acoustics. Not sure how much detail is available on the actual room design. The MLL is in the main Harman facility in CA. I plan to visit in 2019 and will post anything I can.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 12-30-2018 at 02:05 PM.
Rex Anderson is online now  
post #65 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 12:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,469
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3167 Post(s)
Liked: 1766
doc floyd, can you share any insights on soundstage/imaging in regards to the science? I am intrigued why soundstage/imaging are so different amongst speakers and what measurements can tell us...is this possible to look at a measurement and say the sound should be located x,y,z?
JonfromCB likes this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
post #66 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PrimeTime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lower California
Posts: 3,217
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 779 Post(s)
Liked: 472
A more precise title for this thread would be:


How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What Harman Science Shows
PrimeTime is offline  
post #67 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:09 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 11,536
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1097 Post(s)
Liked: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Kevin has gone to a lot of effort and worked hard for a very long time to get the information in this post approved and released. He is making every effort to NOT make it about marketing Revel or JBL products. It's about the science of designing loudspeakers.
And then there is this from the second post by Voelks:
Quote:
Revel's waveguides, along with optimum engineering choices such as crossover points and slopes, relatively small midranges and tweeters that can be safely used to lower frequencies than typical designs contribute to far off-axis responses that are close to the direct sound,
and this:
Quote:
All Revel speakers are designed to keep resonances below the threshold of human audibility using the most sensitive stimulus.
That ^^^ sounds like marketing to me. If this is a non-marketing thread, why discuss Revel speakers at all? Discuss the research and the theories and leave specific Harman speakers out of the discussion. On another note, Harman's in-house research all seems very self-serving, and it often comes off as marketing disguised as science, to my cynical mind at least.



Craig
John dhein and Scotth3886 like this.

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System
craig john is offline  
post #68 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:25 PM
Member
 
Floyd Toole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: California
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 2517
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
In all due respect, R E L A X.

I stated it turned into a marketing thread IMHO starting with post 4.

I have not questioned the content provided nor the OP (as I have stated my post that you quoted).

Has any other speaker company met this standard or produce the desired performance your research unveiled other than Revel.
Yes.
ValentinR, JonfromCB and SDX-LV like this.
Floyd Toole is offline  
post #69 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:29 PM
Member
 
Floyd Toole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: California
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 2517
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
A more precise title for this thread would be:


How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What Harman Science Shows
Somewhat true, but in defense of truth, most of the fundamental loudspeaker research was done while I was at the NRCC in Ottawa Canada - 26 years of it. Dr. Sean Olive shared in the later portions of it. The research at Harman added more data, refined the measurement methods, etc. but the basic "truths" were well understood before I joined Harman in 1991. They are the reason I was hired. So, if we are to rename the thread, how about "What science shows".

Last edited by Floyd Toole; 12-30-2018 at 01:34 PM.
Floyd Toole is offline  
post #70 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:29 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 18,062
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8436 Post(s)
Liked: 5623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Williams2 View Post
The Salon2's are very nice, they were about my 5th favourite pair of speakers at Taves 2016.
It's all well and good that a $22,000/pair set of speakers is great but I'd like to see a list of speakers in different pricing bands that met, or mostly met, the "preferred criteria."

Geoff A. J., California
gajCA is offline  
post #71 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 3,934
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Yes.
Please list them for the etification of all reading the thread.

Thanks in advance.
SDX-LV likes this.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #72 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:35 PM
The Ultimate chest punch!
 
Adamg (Ret-Navy)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,594
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 1767
Take away what you wish, but please by all means lets not kill this wondaful and most generous sharing of Audio Science knowledge.

I for one am excited and eager to read all the Dr. Floyd Toole, Mr. Kevin Voecks, Mr. Sean Olive, and Associates are willing to share/post/publish. The Science is what keeps me coming back. Thanks for starting this thread Kevin. Press on Sir, press on! As we say in the Navy, "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!"

AdamG, ...out!
The government cannot give to anybody,
anything that the government does not first,
take from somebody else.

Last edited by Adamg (Ret-Navy); 12-30-2018 at 02:15 PM.
Adamg (Ret-Navy) is offline  
post #73 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:47 PM
Member
 
Floyd Toole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: California
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 2517
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Please list them for the etification of all reading the thread.

Thanks in advance.
In order not to simply add to the enormous body of unsubstantiated opinion on the topic, giving such a list would require spinorama data on the loudspeakers. As has been pointed out, anyone willing can submit samples to Kevin Voecks for measurement.

Although several loudspeaker manufacturers and designers have employed spinorama type measurements, only KEF, to my knowledge has voluntarily published data in that format. Even comprehensive anechoic on and off axis data is powerful information, without the spinorama processing. The latest versions of Klippel measurement apparatus can output data in the processed spinorama format, so it is available in a commercial product.

As I conclude in my book, we know how to design neutral loudspeakers and such loudspeakers can be recognized if adequate anechoic data are available. "The future is already here, it is just not evenly distributed yet." William Gibson, from Figure 18.8 in my book.

So rather than requiring Harman to test all existing loudspeakers, how about requiring manufacturers to display such data on their products. As I show in Figure 12.3 and discuss in surrounding text, the data we get in typical specification sheets is an insult to our intelligence, and most manufacturers cannot, or won't, deliver the necessary data even if asked. Fortunately a few, very few, do.

Then you can do your own shopping.
Floyd Toole is offline  
post #74 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,585
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3624 Post(s)
Liked: 3215
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Please list them for the etification of all reading the thread.

Thanks in advance.
There is, of course, going to be a Harman/Revel/JBL slant to the thread since those are the speakers which have the most measurements and the brand that invested in objective research and testing facilities.

Why don't you instead go to whatever speaker brand you are interested in and demand they provide comprehensive measurements and double blind objective listening results. The problem here is NOT the Revel slant to the thread, it's the pitiful reality of the loudspeaker industry that refuses to publish meaningful objective, comparable, peer reviewed measurements.

Wouldn't it be awesome if Magico or Paradigm or (insert speaker brand) would publish their own double blind test showing how superior their speakers are? Aren't you curious why they don't?

Edit: sorry @Floyd Toole , apparently we were typing at the same time. (And thinking the same thing, lol)
Gooddoc is offline  
post #75 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,469
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3167 Post(s)
Liked: 1766
this white paper has a bunch of testing/graphs for focal sopra


https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foca...WhitePaper.pdf
emcdade and steven59 like this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
post #76 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Take away what you wish, but please by all means lets not kill this wondaful and most generous sharing of Audio Science knowledge.

I for one am excited and eager to read all the Dr. Floyd, Mr. Kevin Voecks, Mr. Sean Olive, and Associates are willing to share/post/publish. The Science is what keeps me coming back. Thanks for starting this thread Kevin. Press on Sir, press on! As we say in the Navy, "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!"
I completely agree, hopefully the folks at Harman know that the majority appreciate this spread of science and knowledge about loudspeakers. I think skepticism of all things is healthy but I don't understand why some are so against science telling us what speakers we should prefer, unless they're speaker designers themselves. I personally own KEF LS50s, so I'm not being a Revel fanboy either, Harman's research has guided KEF and can be used by any speaker manufacturer to better their designs.

Also, why is all of the burden on Harman to complete all of this research? There are plenty of other speaker manufacturers, why doesn't anyone ever ask why they don't do any of their own research on speaker preference? Most companies keep their R&D as proprietary information so I think we're pretty lucky that their research is available to all of us.
aarons915 is offline  
post #77 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 3,934
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked: 403
This reminds me of the NFL.

You can beat Cam Newton and Ben Rothelisbeger to death but if you breath on Tom Brady you get a letter and a fine.

If others have met the criteria then list them. Stating KEF uses spins is not the same.

Again to be crystal clear I’m not downing JBL or Revel products, so owners please check yourselves, all I’m asking if more passed the test just let everyone know.
PrimeTime likes this.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #78 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:17 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 18,062
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8436 Post(s)
Liked: 5623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
...it's the pitiful reality of the loudspeaker industry that refuses to publish meaningful objective, comparable, peer reviewed measurements.
IDK, I'm not sure there is a conspiracy to produce bad speakers.

Maybe some of them, especially the smaller brands, simply don't have the resources to do more than the basic measurements they deem important to them.

I fall into the other camp in that today it seems to me there are more great choices in the marketplace than ever in the past and many ways to get them into your home with little financial risk to see if you like brand x vs brand y or z.

One of those could easily be a Harman umbrella brand be it JBL, Infinity or Revel depending on their budget.

I think it's possible that a person listening at home might choose a non Harman product with "poor" documentation, or no documentation when it comes to the scientific methodology/orthodoxy being presented in this thread.

While that might not satisfy you is it wrong that it satisfies them?
PrimeTime likes this.

Geoff A. J., California
gajCA is offline  
post #79 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:19 PM
Member
 
Floyd Toole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: California
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 2517
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
this white paper has a bunch of testing/graphs for focal sopra


https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foca...WhitePaper.pdf
I looked and I looked, but could not find in all of that technical talk any - any - evidence of anechoic on or off-axis performance for the complete system. Could you?

I did note that they use the Klippel measurement system, so they have the capability to show more, even a spinorama. Where is it?

As has been stated numerous times, the spinorama is not a Harman promotional scheme - it is embodied in an industry standard: ANSI-CTA 2034A.
Brad/Viper-Fan, avkv, Muza and 6 others like this.
Floyd Toole is offline  
post #80 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,469
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3167 Post(s)
Liked: 1766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I looked and I looked, but could not find in all of that technical talk any - any - evidence of anechoic on or off-axis performance for the complete system. Could you?

I did note that they use the Klippel measurement system, so they have the capability to show more, even a spinorama. Where is it?

As has been stated numerous times, the spinorama is not a Harman promotional scheme - it is embodied in an industry standard: ANSI-CTA 2034A.

I didnt see spinorama...but like you said, there was some tech talk in there

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
post #81 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:23 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 30,071
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1189 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
2) Now add in the variable of ones ears and the high frequency hearing loss that males of my age typically have (). If the brain prefers a certain frequency response, but the ears have high frequency loss, could one prefer speakers (especially in an absorptive room) that are not ideal/accurate (from anechoic measurements) because they “compensate” for hearing loss (and room absorption), and deliver closer to the ideal/flat response that the brain prefers?
There are anecdotal observations that one's "preference" is readjusted in response to hearing loss because one's reference, live sound of music and the rest of life, is filtered continuously through the same hearing loss. One consequence is that "compensation" is initially exciting but soon is regarded as "unnatural."

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #82 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Hello SDRUCKER,

I am sorry, but we do not have either speaker. This is an example in which we could do a set of measurements if someone wished to loan one.
I didn't realize this was an option but some of you California people should take advantage of this. I'd love to see some measurements of Sierra 2 or other internet direct speakers that are popular. LS50's would be nice too but I'd be surprised if they didn't already have them on file.
avkv, DS-21, jjackkrash and 1 others like this.
aarons915 is offline  
post #83 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,585
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3624 Post(s)
Liked: 3215
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
This reminds me of the NFL.

You can beat Cam Newton and Ben Rothelisbeger to death but if you breath on Tom Brady you get a letter and a fine.

If others have met the criteria then list them. Stating KEF uses spins is not the same.

Again to be crystal clear I’m not downing JBL or Revel products, so owners please check yourselves, all I’m asking if more passed the test just let everyone know.
It's you that needs to check yourself. This thread is not even a day old and you're demanding that a full list of speakers be produced. It was clearly written that more would follow and yet you feel entitled to dictate to the OP how and when that data is presented.

Just state what you own and maybe they have measurements and comparos, or maybe they don't. Either way your posts are not constructive.
Gooddoc is offline  
post #84 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DavidK442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1,649
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 859 Post(s)
Liked: 720
Thank you for starting this thread.
Unfortunately it is not quite 24 hours old and already filled with 3 pages of "stuff".
To prevent all the useful information being lost in the sea of comments I suggest maintaining an index in your first post.
Mike_WI, frenchfries and Falonious like this.

Last edited by DavidK442; 12-30-2018 at 03:08 PM.
DavidK442 is online now  
post #85 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,585
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3624 Post(s)
Liked: 3215
Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
IDK, I'm not sure there is a conspiracy to produce bad speakers.
I didn't say there was and have no idea where you got that from. I stated manufacturers don't publish meaningful data, with torii providing a great example above.

I guess Focal doesn't have the funds for it . Maybe they had to sell the Klippel machine before they got a chance to assemble the speaker.
Gooddoc is offline  
post #86 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:35 PM
Senior Member
 
modenacart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 475
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 253 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
In order not to simply add to the enormous body of unsubstantiated opinion on the topic, giving such a list would require spinorama data on the loudspeakers. As has been pointed out, anyone willing can submit samples to Kevin Voecks for measurement.



Although several loudspeaker manufacturers and designers have employed spinorama type measurements, only KEF, to my knowledge has voluntarily published data in that format. Even comprehensive anechoic on and off axis data is powerful information, without the spinorama processing. The latest versions of Klippel measurement apparatus can output data in the processed spinorama format, so it is available in a commercial product.



As I conclude in my book, we know how to design neutral loudspeakers and such loudspeakers can be recognized if adequate anechoic data are available. "The future is already here, it is just not evenly distributed yet." William Gibson, from Figure 18.8 in my book.



So rather than requiring Harman to test all existing loudspeakers, how about requiring manufacturers to display such data on their products. As I show in Figure 12.3 and discuss in surrounding text, the data we get in typical specification sheets is an insult to our intelligence, and most manufacturers cannot, or won't, deliver the necessary data even if asked. Fortunately a few, very few, do.



Then you can do your own shopping.


Do you know where to get a copy of the KEF data? I didn’t see it on their website.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
modenacart is offline  
post #87 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 3,934
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked: 403
And you plunking on me is productive. I’m not demanding but politely (thought it was polite) ask if others made the grade.

Why not fire back on CJohn for his comments?

If others made the grade but are not listed doesn’t that say something?

In regards to what have owned here is the list:
RBH T1
Dynaudio C4
Martin Logan Summit
Klipsch Heresey
Klipsch Cornwall
Klipsch RF7
Tannoy 8F
Golden Ear Triton 1
Golden Ear Triton 2+
Golden Ear Triton T5

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #88 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DavidK442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1,649
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 859 Post(s)
Liked: 720
In a hobby filled with mysticism and alchemy it is refreshing to read a thread based on objectivity and science
Vergiliusm, Muza, InPhase and 3 others like this.

Last edited by DavidK442; 02-02-2019 at 12:41 PM.
DavidK442 is online now  
post #89 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
avkv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 150
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
would be awesome if we had the measurements of the speakers after the users got to adjust eq...ya know to see what they really liked the sound to be
Torii,

That test was actually done by our research scientists, who found that our targets for anechoic and in-room response are what listeners prefer, even when they have the ability to adjust the EQ themselves.

Kevin Voecks
Acoustic Technologies
HARMAN Luxury Audio Group
Revel Founder
avkv is offline  
post #90 of 2894 Old 12-30-2018, 02:39 PM
Advanced Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
Do you know where to get a copy of the KEF data? I didn’t see it on their website.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://us.kef.com/media/doc/r2018_whitepaper_en.pdf

That's the whitepaper of the new R series, at the bottom they show the measurements of all of the speakers in the spinorama format. Here's a snip from the R3, I think it's going to do very well in its price point.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	R3Measure.JPG
Views:	829
Size:	64.7 KB
ID:	2502994  
SDX-LV and fatbulkexpanse like this.
aarons915 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Tags
cea 2034 , double-blind , listening tests , loudspeaker measurements , spinorama



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off