How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 44 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1291 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 11:53 AM
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Here are two things that might bring the discussion back to the science of audio and loudspeakers. Check out the waveguide on the new Genelec monitors. Much more "Revel like" (wider dispersion) than their previous waveguides. Manual has measurements including directivity.

https://www.genelec.com/studio-monit...studio-monitor

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...ing_manual.pdf

And a new test signal for measuring loudspeaker performance.

https://meyersound.com/news/m-noise-test-signal/

https://meyersound.com/video/m-noise/
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post #1292 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Science is not bound by limitations, so you can never claim something is absolutely proven because you always have to leave open the possibility of new evidence showing up that changes the theory (however slightly). More and more of Einstein's predictions are being observed in reality. Theories that once seemed like science fiction (e.g., time dilation) are now merely practical problems to be addressed. For example, the clocks on GPS satellites have to be adjusted because they are farther away from the gravity of the earth, so time moves faster (38 microseconds per day). Despite that verification/observation, it still has to be labeled a theory (still has to be open to being disproved).
Yet, there have been experiments that have shown it to be false by observation. This is one of the dogmas that are protected within the scientific community. In reality, it is a theory, but the dogma surrounding it has been equated to law. I make no claim to being qualified to discuss physics or quantum mechanics, but I did run across several articles that were an interesting read. I am in a Palo Alto threat prevention class - need to pay attention. No more AVS for me today. Call me later this week.
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post #1293 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post
That never ends!
And if it did, there'd be no hobby.

True, I'm rather constrained these days, but that's only because I was on a rampage in a couple of hobbies for 60 years or so and now worry about outliving my savings. I was no different in my other hobby/interest with racing, starting in 1960. I graduated from high school in 62 with four cars, one as a daily diver/tow vehicle, two for drag racing and one for road (SCCA) racing and every four or five months it was something new if I thought it might be faster. Plus, my interest in music since 1947 and then audio in the late 50s. In the 80s, I had an attorney I worked with who was a flight instructor based out of Torrance Airport, and he tried, but I resisted. And the number of times I almost bought a big boat to weekend in Avalon on Catalina.

Priorities have changed a bit as I look uphill to age 80. I've stayed very active all of my life with weight lifting, amateur boxing, cycling and even a bit of surfing in my SoCal years so outliving my money is a reasonable concern. So now I'm a thrifty shopper!
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post #1294 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
You might want to pick a different independent organization. They don't have the same high standards as some on this thread.
If the subjective wasn't so important (to me) in this hobby, that might well do it.
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post #1295 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Let's not pretend that the science community doesn't have their own dogmas and often ignore empirical evidences that challenges those dogmas. Religion is not the only offender.

Can we see this empirical evidence that goes against the dogmas of science as it relates to audio?

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post #1296 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Scientific hypothesis are based on some facts and some scientific/intellectual reasoning...so while not proven (nothing in science is ever really proven, however you can get data that supports your hypothesis), a scientific theory or hypothesis is proposed based on some facts and a testable scientific question.

Playing wordsmith doesn't alter what science is. If it were for some facts, man would have never reached the moon.

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post #1297 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Playing wordsmith doesn't alter what science is. If it were for some facts, man would have never reached the moon.

Did we?

(just kidding)
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post #1298 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yet, there have been experiments that have shown it to be false by observation. This is one of the dogmas that are protected within the scientific community. In reality, it is a theory, but the dogma surrounding it has been equated to law. I make no claim to being qualified to discuss physics or quantum mechanics, but I did run across several articles that were an interesting read. I am in a Palo Alto threat prevention class - need to pay attention. No more AVS for me today. Call me later this week.

Please post the articles for the benefit of everyone.

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post #1299 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Did we?

(just kidding)



Sure did...





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post #1300 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
If the subjective wasn't so important (to me) in this hobby, that might well do it.
So it's not an independent organization that's important, what you're looking for is confirmation of your subjective impressions.
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post #1301 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Here are two things that might bring the discussion back to the science of audio and loudspeakers. Check out the waveguide on the new Genelec monitors. Much more "Revel like" (wider dispersion) than their previous waveguides. Manual has measurements including directivity.

https://www.genelec.com/studio-monit...studio-monitor

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...ing_manual.pdf

And a new test signal for measuring loudspeaker performance.

https://meyersound.com/news/m-noise-test-signal/

https://meyersound.com/video/m-noise/
Genelec is one of the companies that 'gets it'. In general their dispersion is somewhat narrower than Revel, but with good to excellent off axis behaviour. The S360 looks like a superb loudspeaker.

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post #1302 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 01:28 PM
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There are too many speakers so my "scientific how to choose a speaker approach" was to look at this from a "what do the production people use" to do sound and demo/show it to their clients and what does that gear look like. Rex Anderson showed info for Genelec (which has a broad range of mid-field and up equipment). This is also available for Neumann (which is what I use) and others. These guys and others on the industry side spend a lot of money on their design, engineering and testing and aren't shy about selling their equipment on how flat it can be with limited correction controls (correct the room, not the speaker). Directivity and free field response are key so they will show it along with other measures (delay, distortion, decay) at different dBs and frequency plots. Instead of asking the OP to test everything I would suggest looking for this data. If it isn't available or the testing parameters aren't clear or broad well that speaks volumes!
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post #1303 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
So it's not an independent organization that's important, what you're looking for is confirmation of your subjective impressions.

Maybe it's both. No different than finally running REW sweeps when I was pretty much done.

The subjective, my subjective, still is the final determiner whether I open my wallet or not.

So, the net of this is:

measurements good, sounds good = buy
sounds good = measurements bad = buy
measurements good, sounds bad = pass
measurements bad, sounds bad = pass

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post #1304 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Sure did...





Buzz Aldrin had a slightly different way of saying 'sure did'

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post #1305 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Maybe it's both. No different that finally running REW sweeps when I was pretty much done.

The subjective, my subjective, still is the final determiner whether I open my wallet or not.

So, the net of this is:

measurements good, sounds good = buy
sounds good = measurements bad = buy
measurements good, sounds bad = pass
measurements bad, sounds bad = pass
Well, it's not both, but I have absolutely no problem with any of that. You could replace "measurements" in your decision tree with "eggs and bacon" and it wouldn't make any difference .
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post #1306 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Well, it's not both, but I have absolutely no problem with any of that. You could replace "measurements" in your decision tree with "eggs and bacon" and it wouldn't make any difference .
Generally referred in these parts as 'bacon and eggs'.

Measurements I am concerned with are impedance, efficiency and side to side tracking / consistency.

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post #1307 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 01:56 PM
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Bacon and eggs, eggs and bacon..... Well you can both.....

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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Bacon and eggs, eggs and bacon..... Well you can both.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWRB8_Cr3KY
Like when they ask me how I want my eggs. My answer: on my plate.
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post #1309 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 02:03 PM
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When we speak of the science of anything what we're really talking about is the best currently available science. Much of the best currently available science on evaluating speaker performance was initially researched by @Floyd Toole and his associates at the NRC. As with other science it continues to evolve in multiple venues. While it's fair to point out that this science isn't perfect, consensus among the most technically knowledgeable in the speaker industry seems to be that it represents the best that's currently available.

The question that seems to generate so much side discussion in threads like this is whether or not unscientific observation is a valid method for disproving the best currently available science. In fact, scientifically conducted research has proven beyond reasonable doubt that unscientific observation of speaker performance is inherently flawed and easily skewed by such simple factors as sight and preconceptions.

Any conflict between what's defined by the best currently available science and what's believed from someone's unscientific observation puts each of us in the position of choosing which of the two is the least imperfect and most likely to be accurate. Like politics and religion, it seems that the most vocal take hard positions on one side or the other and almost never acknowledge that the other side may in fact be less imperfect.
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post #1310 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
While it's fair to point out that this science isn't perfect, consensus among the most technically knowledgeable in the speaker industry seems to be that it represents the best that's currently available.
Unfortunately the skepticism in this thread comes in the form of argument from incredulity: simply refusing to believe the evidence (as opposed to presenting contrary evidence).

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post #1311 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 02:23 PM
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Unfortunately the skepticism in this thread comes in the form of argument from incredulity: simply refusing to believe the evidence (as opposed to presenting contrary evidence).

What evidence? I thought just about all agreed that there isn't a metric, hence, no evidence for the aspects of sound reproduction several of us are most interested in.
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post #1312 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 02:26 PM
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Generally referred in these parts as 'bacon and eggs'.
I'll bet our even our toilets flush in a different direction
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post #1313 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 02:32 PM
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I'll bet our even our toilets flush in a different direction

Correct

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post #1314 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 02:38 PM
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Genelec S360 looks bad ass.

Very good v/h dispersion and high output.

$4600 each with amps isn’t that bad compared to many others.

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post #1315 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Unfortunately the skepticism in this thread comes in the form of argument from incredulity: simply refusing to believe the evidence (as opposed to presenting contrary evidence).
Well that's the rub here, isn't it.

AKV, publishes an article on Harmon R&D & folks who either don't own or prefer Revel speakers get their panties in a knot because they interpret this as "Our speakers are empirically better than anyone else's", i.e., your speakers suck.

Then the wheels come off and here we are 40 some pages later.
To me, totally predictable.
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post #1316 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Like politics and religion, it seems that the most vocal take hard positions on one side or the other and almost never acknowledge that the other side may in fact be less imperfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Unfortunately the skepticism in this thread comes in the form of argument from incredulity: simply refusing to believe the evidence (as opposed to presenting contrary evidence).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Well that's the rub here, isn't it.

AKV, publishes an article on Harmon R&D & folks who either don't own or prefer Revel speakers get their panties in a knot because they interpret this as "Our speakers are empirically better than anyone else's", i.e., your speakers suck.

Then the wheels come off and here we are 40 some pages later.
To me, totally predictable.

These strike me as exaggerations at best, if not mischaracterisations, of most of what has been happening in this thread.

Admittedly I haven't read every single post in this very long thread. But I don't remember anyone rejecting the science presented by Floyd Tool or KV.
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post #1317 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Science is not bound by limitations, so you can never claim something is absolutely proven because you always have to leave open the possibility of new evidence showing up that changes the theory (however slightly). More and more of Einstein's predictions are being observed in reality. Theories that once seemed like science fiction (e.g., time dilation) are now merely practical problems to be addressed. For example, the clocks on GPS satellites have to be adjusted because they are farther away from the gravity of the earth, so time moves faster (38 microseconds per day). Despite that verification/observation, it still has to be labeled a theory (still has to be open to being disproved).
This is the common misconception I was referring to. A scientific theory does not mean best guess. It does not graduate to become a law. A scientific theory is the encapsulation of all of the facts and knowledge of a phenomenon and based on that body of knowledge, one can use it to make accurate predictions.

I can see how relativity could be seen as a hypothesis 100 years ago, but keep in mind that Einstein proved General Relativity with eclipses, confirming his hypothesis. The math has since been used to make predictions that have with every new observation further confirmed the theory.

The remaining problems to work out are the details of how gravity works (is there a graviton?), and how to reconcile it with quantum mechanics. So it's a theory, but not a complete one, if you count that against it.
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post #1318 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 06:47 PM
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What evidence? I thought just about all agreed that there isn't a metric, hence, no evidence for the aspects of sound reproduction several of us are most interested in.
No, I think the evidence is being ignored. One of the sound reproduction aspects that is being debated, from what I can see, is imaging. The argument is that evaluating a single speaker and determining its sound quality is not accurate as it does not take into account the imaging of a pair of speakers. However, Dr. Toole has addressed this, clearly, by stating that there was no need to evaluate pairs of speakers, as the single speaker that measured the best, and was preferred subjectively, also imaged the best, subjectively when used as a pair. However, if someone believes that the only way you can accurately evaluate loudspeakers is by listening to a pair, with the only basis for this being purely their own limited opinion, and also believes that this opinion trumps decades of legitimate scientific research, theres a good chance someone is less likely to be right. I know who my money is on.
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post #1319 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 07:02 PM
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No, I think the evidence is being ignored. One of the sound reproduction aspects that is being debated, from what I can see, is imaging. The argument is that evaluating a single speaker and determining its sound quality is not accurate as it does not take into account the imaging of a pair of speakers. However, Dr. Toole has addressed this, clearly, by stating that there was no need to evaluate pairs of speakers, as the single speaker that measured the best, and was preferred subjectively, also imaged the best, subjectively when used as a pair. However, if someone believes that the only way you can accurately evaluate loudspeakers is by listening to a pair, with the only basis for this being purely their own limited opinion, and also believes that this opinion trumps decades of legitimate scientific research, theres a good chance someone is less likely to be right. I know who my money is on.

"as the single speaker that measured the best, and was preferred subjectively, also imaged the best"

Unsurprisingly, I disagree.
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post #1320 of 5313 Old 02-04-2019, 07:16 PM
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I think it's going to depend on the design.

Because I have a feeling that a single Ohm Walsh, with its angled tweeter, would not fare well in the spinorama. It's just not made for mono, forward-firing operation.
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Last edited by Soulburner; 02-04-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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