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post #1351 of 4389 Old 02-04-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I wear it with pride. On, oh Gawd, a Buick.



It helps though as when I'm late and driving like an a$$hole, I figure the highway patrol will figure I'm just have a cardiac arrest or seizure and let me go.

Headphones will be saved for the nursing home as it's just too easy to play way too loud.

I wish there was a way to post a Tidal playlist as I think I've discovered some really cool stuff I'd love to share.
Nice!

I know you can easily share public Spotify playiists but I'm not sure about Tidal. Maybe someone here can help you out with that (I don't have Tidal.)

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post #1352 of 4389 Old 02-04-2019, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
Nice!

I know you can easily share public Spotify playiists but I'm not sure about Tidal. Maybe someone here can help you out with that (I don't have Tidal.)
I can, and often do, share album or track links, but not sure on the play list.
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post #1353 of 4389 Old 02-04-2019, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
Very nice observations.

One thing that really stood out for me, as well, was that from ~500Hz to 5000Hz the image shifting and "soundstaging" was all over the place and seemingly quite random. Up, down, left, right, coming the sides, behind(!), from above (never from below oddly or not).

I have a fairly reflective room so none of this is surprising. I've had all sorts of speaker's in this room in all price ranges and sizes but the highest (above $1800 for a pair of standmounts and some cheaper floorstanders like polk and infinity.)

In none of these cases, has the room prevented me from enjoying and accurately hearing the speakers. I'm a big believer in Toole's overall conclusions and I have pretty much always preferred the flatter, more accurate speaker.

If the statistical science says that 99.9% of listeners prefer flat and smooth on-axis, and smooth or at least constant DI (not necessarily flat) off-axis then I am not ashamed to admit that I firmly fall in that 99.9%.

Where bass is concerned, I might take the less accurate speaker if it provides a more satisfying amount of bass since for pure music and movie enjoyment, I still find there to be a "minimum" amount of bass that I deem acceptable to get the head noddin' and the foot tappin'.

For instance, i've never heard a 4 inch woofer that has satisfied on any level, period. 5 inch woofers are more hit or miss, and then 6-7 inch woofers almost always work fine. Three-ways take it up yet another notch (never heard a 4-way.) Add a sub, and now you've reached endgame, assuming you can reach the desired SPLs, lol.

Rambling aside, again, those are some nice observations!

My thoughts are the same...…...before hearing that video none of the issues it highlights with the room were ever noticed or a problem.



However, I wonder how much of that...."That sounds cool, like X is over there or up there" etc was not the recording, it was just the room and having no other reference than always hearing it in that room on this system, it just went unnoticed.



I also have to agree with the doctor, its seems to be not much of a issue during playback since I never noticed it before that video.




It just made me think, how much of this imaging sounstage largeness or other attributes people speak of is attributed to a speaker or recording that is not the speaker or recording and is the room...………..although as mentioned, it seems to not pose much of a problem during playback.

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post #1354 of 4389 Old 02-04-2019, 11:52 PM
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My thoughts are the same...…...before hearing that video none of the issues it highlights with the room were ever noticed or a problem.

However, I wonder how much of that...."That sounds cool, like X is over there or up there" etc was not the recording, it was just the room and having no other reference than always hearing it in that room on this system, it just went unnoticed.

I also have to agree with the doctor, its seems to be not much of a issue during playback since I never noticed it before that video.

It just made me think, how much of this imaging sounstage largeness or other attributes people speak of is attributed to a speaker or recording that is not the speaker or recording and is the room...………..although as mentioned, it seems to not pose much of a problem during playback.
I was just looking through my track list on Tidal to find one that I think is the best of the electronica genre with the coolest soundstage affects and there just so many (or I wouldn't have saved them), but two very recent ones that I saved are from the most recent Deadmau album

https://tidal.com/track/99086988

https://tidal.com/track/99086984

or from youtube


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post #1355 of 4389 Old 02-04-2019, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
It just made me think, how much of this imaging sounstage largeness or other attributes people speak of is attributed to a speaker or recording that is not the speaker or recording and is the room...………..although as mentioned, it seems to not pose much of a problem during playback.
I too have no doubt that the room plays a big part in how the sound is presented and it might even the dominant factor in some or most cases. It's probably just a matter of priority in the end:

A better room will make all speakers sound "better". Likewise, a lousy room will make all speakers sound "lousier."

However, I'd still prefer to listen to a good speaker in a lousy room, than to a lousy speaker in a good room, if that makes sense. Combine a good speaker in a good room or a good collection of instruments in a renowned concert hall with all it's characteristically unique refections, and you have now unlocked audio nirvana (the concept, not the band, lol.)

Now, what makes a good speaker, you ask?

To me, it's the one that will let you enjoy the room the most and the one that just "gets out of the way" so-to-speak. *Usually* this is the more accurate one, for me, but I certainly don't want to speak for everyone.
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post #1356 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Like any subject, the more you learn the more you realize the less you know....


Like almost everything, the answer is it depends and the explanation is...its complicated, and really is a case by case for some stuff.

Attributes that contribute to good sound, such as the spinorama are known, attributes that contribute to poor sound are also known and understood.

My friends say I am like Tattoo, from fantasy island, for all the kids reading, the plane the plane...…..my signature is "the room" the room

Something that has many many effects on what we hear...…...a video I like to post here below...… "Some" Room effects change with frequency, drastically......as you listen to the video below in 2.0 you will notice some frequencies are almost undetectable in the middle of the spectrum and others sound like they come from the ceiling, the corner and even behind you.

Frequency interaction with the room will make it sound like 2.0 is in Atmos due to the room interacting differently with each one of these frequency ranges.....give it listen below,...…..I think this has to account for some of what people claim they hear in a speaker, when it is a attribute of the room and not the speaker...it certainly comes in to play.

Keep in mind when listening to the video below in 2.0, the shift in soundstage is not baked into the mix, it is the room interacting with the different frequencies giving the illusion that sound is coming from different locations all over the room...…… the soundstage is centered in the mix, the shifts are your room and will be different in different sized rooms and reflectivity of the different rooms.

Once you listen to the video and understand what is happening, it will give insight in to how complex reproduction really is.....it extends well beyond the speaker or recording...….as mentioned before, its complicated, a good speaker will mitigate instead of compound, but some effects of the room can not be mitigated or escaped.

Just listen to the video and keep in mind the soundstage should stay centered thru the entire sweep...…..make sure you are in 2.0.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-iCZElJ8m0
Also important that speakers track accurately and consistently side to side, and up and down the frequency range as that alone will cause quite a shift in what's supposed to be center.

I have much more 'moving around' in my office as that is the most reverberant room in my house and I've done nothing yet to cool it a bit. Not moving around much down in the sound room, which I think I've made too dead.
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post #1357 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 05:09 AM
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How is detail retrieval measured? Separation of instruments? These things are pretty easy to hear among different speakers.
These measurements were derived in the same way that the Spinorama measurements were arrived at, through subjective listening accompanied by measurements. Correlating the two allows for a cause-and-effect to be determined. Although there have been many study designs, including in real rooms, the approach I find most interesting were the studies done in anechoic chambers where listeners were surrounded by speakers at specific angles and reflections were recreated at various intensities while listeners assessed qualities like soundstage or speech intelligibility.

Hopefully you can see that through study designs like this the factors for things like "soundstage" can be determined, and measured. They're not mysterious things that are unmeasurable.
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post #1358 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 05:57 AM
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The graphs here are very helpful in assessing dispersion characteristics: https://www.audioholics.com/bookshel...r-1/conclusion

And the cumulative spectral decay and impulse response graphs here tell us about the stored energy characteristics of a driver/tweeter, which affects detail (along with distortion and other things): http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...on%20Tower.pdf

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post #1359 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 06:38 AM
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These measurements were derived in the same way that the Spinorama measurements were arrived at, through subjective listening accompanied by measurements. Correlating the two allows for a cause-and-effect to be determined. Although there have been many study designs, including in real rooms, the approach I find most interesting were the studies done in anechoic chambers where listeners were surrounded by speakers at specific angles and reflections were recreated at various intensities while listeners assessed qualities like soundstage or speech intelligibility.

Hopefully you can see that through study designs like this the factors for things like "soundstage" can be determined, and measured. They're not mysterious things that are unmeasurable.

I don't want to speak for him, but in several posts I believe Floyd Toole said that there wasn't a metric, hence, no measurements for what I and several others here are talking about with regards to imaging. I think he did say that there were measurements that would lead one way or the other, but I think that's as far as he took it. Plus, my primary argument, that objects have 'scale' within a soundfield, gets even more difficult to measure and predict although physically large speakers are generally the worst offenders. That's even more disconcerting when objects are hugely out of scale such as vocals, which is what dissuaded me from buying the Maggie 3.7i, although I generally liked the speakers in most other ways.

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post #1360 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 08:09 AM
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It was awhile ago, and I didn't bother to bookmark them. I was asked to give a specific example. It isn't a major area of interest to me, but I landed on an article and read it. If the subject interests you, I am sure Google will lead you in the right direction.

yup ok

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post #1361 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 08:26 AM
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Imaging, soundstage organization, depth, width, height all are extremely important to overall fidelity, IMO. I obviously believe sound engineering practices go a long way to creating a quality speaker but there are things that just cannot be measured.

The only thing that cannot be measured is how the listener's brain interprets what they hear. Everything else related to what a monopole speaker is doing physically has been mapped out in its entirety. Test and measuring procedures to have been mapped out as well for monopole designs. Speakers like omni radiaiting speakers like that of Mirage and Ohm produced require a different testing strategy. I do not know if Dr Toole worked with ominpolar designs.

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post #1362 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 08:53 AM
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yup ok
Trolling me? Although I don't have the article, I do remember the name - Ronald Hatch a scientist holding over 30 patents in GPS. He demonstrates how GPS provides evidence against Einstein's theory of relativity . He is peer reviewed and published. Ever heard of him? Nope. You won't because he is going against a scientific dogma that will not bend. The article dealt with the academic censorship he has faced. Since GPS is the most touted example proving Einstein's theory (Sanjay even referenced it previously in this thread), one would think research like this would receive press vs censorship.

https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/members/hatch/

The other article dealt with Oleg Jefimenko and Nikola Tesla.

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post #1363 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 09:34 AM
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The only thing that cannot be measured is how the listener's brain interprets what they hear. Everything else related to what a monopole speaker is doing physically has been mapped out in its entirety. Test and measuring procedures to have been mapped out as well for monopole designs. Speakers like omni radiaiting speakers like that of Mirage and Ohm produced require a different testing strategy. I do not know if Dr Toole worked with ominpolar designs.
I have not only subjectively and objectively evaluated multidirectional designs, but I owned a pair of Mirage M1s. My comments on them as well as in-room and anechoic measurements are in Chapter 7 in my book. They are absolutely amenable to conventional evaluation. The added room reflections soften hard L & R panned images and slightly blur the panned images. This is most advantageous for large scale classical music in my opinion, but not offensive with any musical genre. I'm sure some others will disagree

This has been discussed earlier in this thread. Anechoic measurement on an Ohm model are in Chapter 18, again amenable to conventional analysis.
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post #1364 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 11:51 AM
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Lonewolf,

Kudos for your listening. You might find the attached Klipsch Spinorama of interest. As you can see, aside from very poor balance and a lack of smoothness, it also exhibits resonance issues.
Thanks for posting the spin, it helps to see what I didn't like about those speakers.

I have a question for you, or for any other Revel F36 owner: do the Revel F36s have a wide or narrow dispersion? One thing I like is a nice wide soundstage. I love it when I hear music floating back and forth between a pair of speakers and even outside the pair. The speakers I have at home do this decently with well recorded music. The reason I ask is that I had a chance to listen to F35s at one store this past weekend, and F36s and M16s at another store. All three sounded wonderful and I really enjoyed their sound, but one thing I noticed was a complete lack of soundstage. I spent about two hours listening to the F36s and I always felt like I was listening "to the speakers". They produce a nice phantom centre image but there wasn't a whole lot moving around, and never once anything "to the outside" - this was with music I have a nice soundstage with at home. We even moved the F36s from the cathedral area (literally, the store used to be a church) to one of the rooms, and same thing - sounded great, no soundstage to talk of. I listened to vinyl and cd's through some extremely expensive gear. Now to be fair, I also listened to Monitor Audio and Totem towers in the same price range, as well as various other speakers, and didn't notice much of a soundstage with them either so I suspect it was the rooms I was listening in. For contrast, I listened to a pair of Dynaudio M10s and the soundstage was amazing! When they were first turned on I was taken back; I looked around the room to see where the sound was coming from, as the speakers and room completely disappeared and the sound was coming from "everywhere". I could swear the guy was playing guitar and singing right in front of me! I listened to several songs and a big soundstage was always apparent. There were other things I didn't like about the speakers but man did I like that soundstage! With all the speakers I listened to, I kept coming back to the Revels, but the lack of soundstage stopped me from buying them. If they threw up a soundstage like the little bookshelves, I'd have bought them on the spot, no hesitations. Should they give a big soundstage? Were they just not set up in the rooms well? Because that's one thing I won't sacrifice for new speakers, even if they do sound so wonderful.

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I spend most of the winter enjoying stereo at home and at the shops and to scale I think poorly designed speakers will distort scale, like roger waters 'amused to death' album idk what they do with phase to make the sound come from all over the room, but it's surely special effects and I've had different speakers reproduce that recording differently while everything else being equal the speakers replay most other music more alike than different. Axpona was an excellent example of 4 floors of speakers jammed into the same size room all sounding more alike than different in terms of scale. I would expect direct radiating speakers to scale alike if placed the same in the same room as much as I would expect omni's and panels to sound different because like the amused to death recording they are designed to do what they're doing.
Amused To Death was recorded using QSound. You can read more about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound

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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Until the potential for bias is removed, (i.e., by larger, more statistically powerful testing, preferably performed by independent testers), I will continue to view the Harman preference testing as subjective and inconclusive. That doesn't mean its wrong. It just means I don't have full confidence that it is complete and correct science.
It seems strange to me that it has been pointed out to you many times that the science Harman is using is science that was pioneered and studied in independent labs 20+ years before Harman started to apply it, science that has been peer reviewed and verified and turned into ANSI standards, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Of course, if you did, it would ruin your story. I get it, sometime people don't want to acknowledge the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed. But willful ignorance makes it difficult to have an intelligent conversation.

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How is detail retrieval measured? Separation of instruments? These things are pretty easy to hear among different speakers.
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And it appears that the easiest to hear are the most difficult to measure. Several folks in the know have said that there aren't metrics to measure, although there are factors that can be measured that lead to more or less.
I asked this early in this thread. The answer I got back was the flatter the response and the less the cabinet resonances ( not adding colour), the more detail and clarity (separation of instruments) one hears. It's not all that difficult to hear OR measure in the real world.

Scott, glad to see you on the Deadmau5 train! Been to see him live a few times, one of my favourite performers!
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post #1365 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 02:00 PM
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Amused To Death was recorded using QSound. You can read more about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
Oh my, you have reminded me of an interesting episode in my life. I was a research scientist at the NRCC and as a "national resource" I was interviewed by a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) science program on the topic of the much promoted Q-Sound. I explained that it was a trial and error discovery of what is well understood as binaural audio processing (crosstalk cancellation being the basis). At the time the demonstration existed only as a cassette that was carefully guarded - there was no established process to create the effect. Naturally the entrepreneurs reacted through lawyers, asserting that a Canadian government employee (me) should not be critical of a Canadian business. It reached the politicians and there were threats against my continued employment. In the end, I continued to be employed because I was right. Now there are numerous versions of - science based - binaural signal processing that can place "Images" in many locations in space. All of them add great complexity to the evaluation of "imaging" in stereo listening because people hear things that are in the recordings, but are incorrectly attributed to speakers, wires, and who knows what. There is a thread somewhere that focuses on that alone, where "gee whiz" special effects are apparently the goal.
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post #1366 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I have not only subjectively and objectively evaluated multidirectional designs, but I owned a pair of Mirage M1s. My comments on them as well as in-room and anechoic measurements are in Chapter 7 in my book. They are absolutely amenable to conventional evaluation. The added room reflections soften hard L & R panned images and slightly blur the panned images. This is most advantageous for large scale classical music in my opinion, but not offensive with any musical genre. I'm sure some others will disagree

This has been discussed earlier in this thread. Anechoic measurement on an Ohm model are in Chapter 18, again amenable to conventional analysis.

That's it. I have to get your book and read it. Thanks for chiming in. I have a question...how often did you run across people who fall out of the subjective norm if there is one? Is there one? There's lot of DSP (I say DSP with tongue in cheek ) going on how the sound travels thru the ear canal and then gets converted into electrical pulses and fed to the brain where it gets processed and evaluated. Is there a huge variance in that?

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post #1367 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 02:57 PM
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I think Dr. Toole answered that some time ago: "In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence."
The absence of evidence does not mean the evidence is absent!
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post #1368 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
Thanks for posting the spin, it helps to see what I didn't like about those speakers.

I have a question for you, or for any other Revel F36 owner: do the Revel F36s have a wide or narrow dispersion? One thing I like is a nice wide soundstage. I love it when I hear music floating back and forth between a pair of speakers and even outside the pair. The speakers I have at home do this decently with well recorded music. The reason I ask is that I had a chance to listen to F35s at one store this past weekend, and F36s and M16s at another store. All three sounded wonderful and I really enjoyed their sound, but one thing I noticed was a complete lack of soundstage. I spent about two hours listening to the F36s and I always felt like I was listening "to the speakers". They produce a nice phantom centre image but there wasn't a whole lot moving around, and never once anything "to the outside" - this was with music I have a nice soundstage with at home. We even moved the F36s from the cathedral area (literally, the store used to be a church) to one of the rooms, and same thing - sounded great, no soundstage to talk of. I listened to vinyl and cd's through some extremely expensive gear. Now to be fair, I also listened to Monitor Audio and Totem towers in the same price range, as well as various other speakers, and didn't notice much of a soundstage with them either so I suspect it was the rooms I was listening in. For contrast, I listened to a pair of Dynaudio M10s and the soundstage was amazing! When they were first turned on I was taken back; I looked around the room to see where the sound was coming from, as the speakers and room completely disappeared and the sound was coming from "everywhere". I could swear the guy was playing guitar and singing right in front of me! I listened to several songs and a big soundstage was always apparent. There were other things I didn't like about the speakers but man did I like that soundstage! With all the speakers I listened to, I kept coming back to the Revels, but the lack of soundstage stopped me from buying them. If they threw up a soundstage like the little bookshelves, I'd have bought them on the spot, no hesitations. Should they give a big soundstage? Were they just not set up in the rooms well? Because that's one thing I won't sacrifice for new speakers, even if they do sound so wonderful.

Amused To Death was recorded using QSound. You can read more about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound

It seems strange to me that it has been pointed out to you many times that the science Harman is using is science that was pioneered and studied in independent labs 20+ years before Harman started to apply it, science that has been peer reviewed and verified and turned into ANSI standards, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Of course, if you did, it would ruin your story. I get it, sometime people don't want to acknowledge the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed. But willful ignorance makes it difficult to have an intelligent conversation.

I asked this early in this thread. The answer I got back was the flatter the response and the less the cabinet resonances ( not adding colour), the more detail and clarity (separation of instruments) one hears. It's not all that difficult to hear OR measure in the real world.

Scott, glad to see you on the Deadmau5 train! Been to see him live a few times, one of my favourite performers
!
Yep, but so many have so much trouble with it, especially the size/scale of objects within the soundstage, my number 1 BFD

"I listened to a pair of Dynaudio M10s and the soundstage was amazing! When they were first turned on I was taken back; I looked around the room to see where the sound was coming from, as the speakers and room completely disappeared and the sound was coming from "everywhere". I could swear the guy was playing guitar and singing right in front of me! I listened to several songs and a big soundstage was always apparent. There were other things I didn't like about the speakers but man did I like that soundstage! With all the speakers I listened to, I kept coming back to the Revels, but the lack of soundstage stopped me from buying them. If they threw up a soundstage like the little bookshelves, I'd have bought them on the spot, no hesitations. Should they give a big soundstage? Were they just not set up in the rooms well? Because that's one thing I won't sacrifice for new speakers, even if they do sound so wonderful."

If one can get this 'right' I'll forgive some other transgressions.

"Scott, glad to see you on the Deadmau5 train!"

I'm a fan of some of the stuff they do. I'm also a fan of the Infected shrooms, and I'm sure their oldest fan by far.
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post #1369 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 04:03 PM
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That's it. I have to get your book and read it. Thanks for chiming in. I have a question...how often did you run across people who fall out of the subjective norm if there is one? Is there one? There's lot of DSP (I say DSP with tongue in cheek ) going on how the sound travels thru the ear canal and then gets converted into electrical pulses and fed to the brain where it gets processed and evaluated. Is there a huge variance in that?
Yes there are huge variations in the details of hearing among individuals. However, for any one individual the differences may not matter because we are born, grow up and live life with what we have. We take our hearing, whatever it is, everywhere: to live concerts and to reproductions of live concerts. This explains why the results of double-blind listening tests show such agreement among listeners.

The exception is when hearing is damaged, because it modifies what we grew up with. Impaired hearing prevents us from hearing some things we used to hear, and distorts some of the things we still can hear. I talk about this a lot in my book because it shows up clearly in listening tests. People with impaired hearing exhibit large inconsistencies in repeated judgments, and may exhibit bias in what they prefer. The result is so much randomness in opinions that such listeners are discouraged from participating in our double-blind listening tests. Because roughly 75% of the population qualifies as having sufficiently "normal" hearing there is reason to follow this practice, as the results can be extrapolated to most of the population. However, it does mean that there are a lot of audio enthusiasts - and professionals: it is an occupational hazard - whose opinions about sound quality and imaging are their own, and theirs alone.

Audiologists base their assessment of normalcy in hearing on speech intelligibility. "Normal" hearing to them may be significantly impaired when judging the subtleties of sound quality and imaging. It is explained in my book.
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post #1370 of 4389 Old 02-05-2019, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Yep, but so many have so much trouble with it, especially the size/scale of objects within the soundstage, my number 1 BFD



"I listened to a pair of Dynaudio M10s and the soundstage was amazing! When they were first turned on I was taken back; I looked around the room to see where the sound was coming from, as the speakers and room completely disappeared and the sound was coming from "everywhere". I could swear the guy was playing guitar and singing right in front of me! I listened to several songs and a big soundstage was always apparent. There were other things I didn't like about the speakers but man did I like that soundstage! With all the speakers I listened to, I kept coming back to the Revels, but the lack of soundstage stopped me from buying them. If they threw up a soundstage like the little bookshelves, I'd have bought them on the spot, no hesitations. Should they give a big soundstage? Were they just not set up in the rooms well? Because that's one thing I won't sacrifice for new speakers, even if they do sound so wonderful."



If one can get this 'right' I'll forgive some other transgressions.



"Scott, glad to see you on the Deadmau5 train!"



I'm a fan of some of the stuff they do. I'm also a fan of the Infected shrooms, and I'm sure their oldest fan by far.
This sensation that the singer is right in front of me is a new sensation for me (after I bought LS50 speakers.). Earlier speakers never gave me that sensation.

Would love to hear if there is any research on this phenomenon. What in speaker design or measurements makes it possible?





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Oh my, you have reminded me of an interesting episode in my life. I was a research scientist at the NRCC and as a "national resource" I was interviewed by a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) science program on the topic of the much promoted Q-Sound. I explained that it was a trial and error discovery of what is well understood as binaural audio processing (crosstalk cancellation being the basis). At the time the demonstration existed only as a cassette that was carefully guarded - there was no established process to create the effect. Naturally the entrepreneurs reacted through lawyers, asserting that a Canadian government employee (me) should not be critical of a Canadian business. It reached the politicians and there were threats against my continued employment. In the end, I continued to be employed because I was right. Now there are numerous versions of - science based - binaural signal processing that can place "Images" in many locations in space. All of them add great complexity to the evaluation of "imaging" in stereo listening because people hear things that are in the recordings, but are incorrectly attributed to speakers, wires, and who knows what. There is a thread somewhere that focuses on that alone, where "gee whiz" special effects are apparently the goal.
Fun story. And that's one reason why the frequency sweep posted last night could be so useful - it is just a tone without any other variables.
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf7002 View Post
I asked this early in this thread. The answer I got back was the flatter the response and the less the cabinet resonances ( not adding colour), the more detail and clarity (separation of instruments) one hears. It's not all that difficult to hear OR measure in the real world.
Right, but frequency response graphs don't usually tell the whole story. That's why Dave Fabrikant displays measurements such as Impulse Response, Energy Time Curve, and Cumulative Spectral Decay for his Sierra Towers: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...on%20Tower.pdf

These can help reveal differences between, for example, dome and ribbon tweeters.
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
This sensation that the singer is right in front of me is a new sensation for me (after I bought LS50 speakers.). Earlier speakers never gave me that sensation.

Would love to hear if there is any research on this phenomenon. What in speaker design or measurements makes it possible?

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I really don't know, but as Kevin said, paraphrasing a bit, 'imaging is catnip to audiophiles' which is one of the truest comments I've read on AVS. I know generally which designs will tend to be successful such as mini monitors setup nearfield, omnis such as the MBL 138 and dipoles, but placement can be a real bear as I've experienced. Concentric drivers tend to do better if you sit nearfield such as what you now have.

First, it's got to be in the recording, next your speakers and of course placement. It seems to be enhanced if L and R are positioned a ways out from the front wall, but not at the null points of 25% and 50%. I'm at 38%.

A way to experiment quickly is have a couple helpers experiment with toe in/out after you have selected a position for best bass and then they rotate as you're in the MLP for best or most interesting imaging.

Do you have Tidal by any chance? If so there's a recoding that I just discovered a couple of days ago that probably has the best imaging drums I've ever heard. High end is a bit much and sorta of hashy though. Drums are center left to left outside the boundary of your left speaker. Same with the Hammond organ on the right side.

I've been on the road all day and now home and really ready for a geezer nap so I'm not sure if I'm making any sense. I'll look at this again later after nap and gym to see if I can figure out what I just said and edit.

https://tidal.com/track/102040731

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Right, but frequency response graphs don't usually tell the whole story. That's why Dave Fabrikant displays measurements such as Impulse Response, Energy Time Curve, and Cumulative Spectral Decay for his Sierra Towers: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...on%20Tower.pdf

These can help reveal differences between, for example, dome and ribbon tweeters.
The time domain differences I see are correlated with frequency response irregularities, as is expected. Transducers are minimum-phase devices and the time domain performance can be calculated from the amplitude vs. frequency response. Waterfalls and the like add no new information, just different perspectives on the same information. Note that prolonged ringing in waterfalls always starts at a peak in the frequency response. Note also that the waterfall does not start declining at t=0. It should if properly windowed.

Further, there is persuasive evidence that humans do not hear the ringing. Our perceptions are dominated by spectral cues.
Toole, F. E. and Olive, S.E. (1988). “The modification of timbre by resonances: perception and measurement”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 36, pp. 122-142.

This is not saying that the speaker at issue is inferior, just that the portrayal of performance is not balanced. There are much better dome tweeters.
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You might want to find another example considering this one doesn't support your position. It was the "unbiased" third party investigators that produced biased results that incorrectly withdrew a very helpful drug from the market. Aprotitin has been re-approved in Canada and the EU, but unfortunately not the US. Hard for any drug to recover from that type of assault considering there are alternatives. Like Paul Harvey says, "Now you know the rest of the story". https://academic.oup.com/bja/article/110/5/675/330401
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That is incorrect on multiple points. The link I posted explains in detail what happened, so I won't repeat it here. The root problem wasn't faulty "company sponsored" research. The problem was the meta-analysis.

It is very difficult to have a discussion if basic facts are misunderstood.

A while back, my professional judgement was called into question by the above poster, so I have spent a considerable amount of time going back through the literature on Aprotinin/Traysolol to reconfirm my statements about the drug. Since I don't want to bore people who have no interest in this discussion, I am uploading my analysis as a Word document and a PDF file. If anyone is not interested, don't open the attachment. However, if you want the *real* "rest of the story", and you want to know whether I do actually understand the basic facts, please read one of the following attachments:
Attached Files
File Type: doc Aprotinin response.doc (89.5 KB, 9 views)
File Type: pdf Aprotinin response.pdf (386.6 KB, 14 views)

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"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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The time domain differences I see are correlated with frequency response irregularities, as is expected. Transducers are minimum-phase devices and the time domain performance can be calculated from the amplitude vs. frequency response. Waterfalls and the like add no new information, just different perspectives on the same information. Note that prolonged ringing in waterfalls always starts at a peak in the frequency response. Note also that the waterfall does not start declining at t=0. It should if properly windowed.

Further, there is persuasive evidence that humans do not hear the ringing. Our perceptions are dominated by spectral cues.
Toole, F. E. and Olive, S.E. (1988). “The modification of timbre by resonances: perception and measurement”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 36, pp. 122-142.

This is not saying that the speaker at issue is inferior, just that the portrayal of performance is not balanced. There are much better dome tweeters.
It was my understanding that a note that rings longer sounds a bit louder than a note that decays very quickly. This is one of the major points of room treatment - to achieve equal decay times across the spectrum, because even a flat frequency response won't sound flat until decay is even. True or false?

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It was my understanding that a note that rings longer sounds a bit louder than a note that decays very quickly. This is one of the major points of room treatment - to achieve equal decay times across the spectrum, because even a flat frequency response won't sound flat until decay is even. True or false?
What you say is instinctively logical, but it fails in practice. Room treatments - that affect reverberation time - are long term time domain effects lasting hundreds of ms. The ringing in loudspeaker resonances may last a few ms at most. They will be completely anticipated by peaks in the frequency response, which is why they sound louder. So, this is why competent loudspeaker designers aim for flat and smooth frequency responses in the direct sound delivered to listeners. If this is achieved there will be no audible resonances, including ringing.

The business of achieving equal decay times in rooms - equal reverberation times - is important in large performance spaces but not necessary in small listening rooms. Some entrepreneurial consultants use this to add "features" to their services - and profit. Although it does no harm. In small rooms, where we listen, it is the first few early reflections - the second loudest sounds we hear from the loudspeakers - that are dominant. It sounds like a sales pitch but it is all explained in excessive detail in my book. You can get a sample at the companion website with no charge: www.routledge.com/cw/toole. Look at the three part article - click on the topics along the top of the page.
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listening break !!!!!!


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The business of achieving equal decay times in rooms - equal reverberation times - is important in large performance spaces but not necessary in small listening rooms. Some entrepreneurial consultants use this to add "features" to their services - and profit. Although it does no harm. In small rooms, where we listen, it is the first few early reflections - the second loudest sounds we hear from the loudspeakers - that are dominant. It sounds like a sales pitch but it is all explained in excessive detail in my book. You can get a sample at the companion website with no charge: www.routledge.com/cw/toole. Look at the three part article - click on the topics along the top of the page.
Thanks. I will note from now on to differentiate between the short-term ringing from a speaker (that could produce effects in an anechoic measurement) and the longer-term ringing of a room space. This could maybe be described in terms of signal to noise ratio - the signal (direct and early reflected sound) is swamping the noise (room decay) to the point where it is not perceivable. Do I have that right?

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What you say is instinctively logical, but it fails in practice. Room treatments - that affect reverberation time - are long term time domain effects lasting hundreds of ms. The ringing in loudspeaker resonances may last a few ms at most. They will be completely anticipated by peaks in the frequency response, which is why they sound louder. So, this is why competent loudspeaker designers aim for flat and smooth frequency responses in the direct sound delivered to listeners. If this is achieved there will be no audible resonances, including ringing.
So when you say resonances, you're referring to resonances from the cabinets and those inherent in drivers. The whole "system". The Spinorama doesn't differentiate - this seems logical. I think ETC and CSD graphs, and the different ways to graph polar response, though they may not be necessary to achieve the goals of the spinorama, they do give us a closer, and some ways better, look at the data. Yet, it begs the question: if those don't explain why ribbons sound different than domes, what does? Is it only differences in the smoothness and extension of frequency response that are responsible for the differences? I thought the quick decay of a driver leads to a perceivable difference in sound that is not noticeable by only looking at frequency response - thus people look to impulse, distortion (especially IM), etc. That goes for ribbon tweeters and servo-controlled subwoofers. Is that talked about in your book?

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listening break !!!!!!

https://youtu.be/j3-mh3vXDA0
Live 10 years ago after a 45 year break.

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