How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 56 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1651 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 12:19 PM
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@craig john Couple of comments:

FWIWFM, Revels are matched to a reference during production so any you buy is closely matched to all others. That was one thing appealing to me; I could buy pairs at different times and be assured of matched performance.

I have all three editions of Dr. Toole's book (and a pile of other references, natch). The latest edition is a significant update from the previous and well worth the money and time to read it. Frankly, and with apologies to Dr. Toole, I found the second edition a little disappointing and only a fairly small update over the first. The third is a major revamp. IMO!

@neutralguy : Before getting my Salon2's I asked indirectly about room size, mainly because (like you) I was not sure how far away you needed to be for a cohesive wavefront. That is an issue I have found problematic with big speakers in a small room in the past more than than anything else except physical size constraints. I don't generally buy the "speaker must fit the room" argument except when they really are just too @$#$% big or too small to provide sufficient SPL at the MMLP.

Coming from planars I was perhaps more concerned than others about driver blending. I cannot for the life of me recall the answer but it was closer than I expected and was a contributing factor in getting Salon2's all around. But one thing that is not real obvious from the pictures is just how deep are the Salon2's -- yes they are tall and heavy, and wide enough to accommodate those 8" woofers, but they are much deeper than they look (at least to me) and in a surround system can be hard to fit into a small'ish (narrow) room. I had (have) room in front and behind, but ended up moving my surrounds forward a bit so I could angle them and keep them a little further from the couch and still have room to walk by them. Plenty of room up front since I have a console in the center for the TV and components, and room in the back behind the couch since the room is long'sih (17'7" L x 13'3" W x 8'6" H). However, I practice behind the couch, and had to adjust a bit so I would not catch my horn on the speakers -- damaging either would be devastating!

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post #1652 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I don't how you would guess that, but true, 60 years of dipoles, starting with 57s in 1959 (one of the world's great 75db midrange speakers for one listener) and have owned just about everything else dipole (ESL and planar magnetic) except Beveridge, Acoustat and Rodgers. I've always has at least one other system with cone and dome monopoles, but kept coming back to ESLs for the three dimensional tricks. The giant downside is they can be hugely difficult to place in the wrong room. In the previous house, what I currently have was just great from the moment I placed them. Here, has been a different story.

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I ran into Gayle Sanders last year at AXPONA with his new speakers line, Eikon. We even took time for a lil selfie. I'd been out in the rain a couple times going back and forth to the car so I was a little worse for the wear. Gayle was as affable as ever.



In re ML, I've owned their earliest product, the Monoliths, then CLSs, then the original Statements, then something else that I can't think of right now, and now the smallest, the ESL EMs. Plus, KLH 9s, Dayton Wrights, several Soundlabs, etc. Strangely, the ML EMs have been the best of them, but still a beast to place.
You look pretty good for being 110. I know you use dipoles also... Possibly mentioned on another speaker forum on avs?
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post #1653 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
You look pretty good for being 110. I know you use dipoles also... Possibly mentioned on another speaker forum on avs?
It is in the picture below his handle, I assumed it was a picture of his room with ML’s. No Sherlock work
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post #1654 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 12:36 PM
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I think that the many variables introduced by bass management/subwoofers would invalidate the entire process. Do you choose one standard setup and one particular subwoofer to mate with all the speakers (at most one match will be optimum) or do you try to optimize setup and sub choice for each and every speaker (mind-boggling number of confusing variables)?
The former. One set of subs, optimized for the room. LR-4 crossovers at 80 Hz. Then adjust only delay and gain of the mains for best blend.

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The only rational choice would be to compare only speaker with the same target performance, e.g., stand mounted speakers of comparable size to each other or floor-standers of comparable size to each other. Within such comparisons, bass performance variability is relevant.
You could do that, certainly.

One can rationalize any kind of test one wants to conduct, depending on what the experiment is designed to evaluate. If one wants to evaluate bass-managed system performance comparing stand-mounted and floor standing speakers, then mixed speaker types is the only rational way to proceed.

The key is to explain the intention of the experiment and the parameters of the test in full detail, just as Harman does rigorously. I'd note that subjective tests are not done in anechoic conditions, but in rooms that represent real listening spaces -- probably very good ones. That is a nod to operating within a real-world context. And so is using subwoofers IMHO.

I'm just observing that when subwoofers are added to the equation, my opinion of the main speakers changes significantly, so if I were designing a speaker to be used with bass management, I'd probably want to assess it that way, with mics and ears.
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post #1655 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The former. One set of subs, optimized for the room. LR-4 crossovers at 80 Hz. Then adjust only delay and gain of the mains for best blend.

You could do that, certainly.

One can rationalize any kind of test one wants to conduct, depending on what the experiment is designed to evaluate. If one wants to evaluate bass-managed system performance comparing stand-mounted and floor standing speakers, then mixed speaker types is the only rational way to proceed.

The key is to explain the intention of the experiment and the parameters of the test in full detail, just as Harman does rigorously. I'd note that subjective tests are not done in anechoic conditions, but in rooms that represent real listening spaces -- probably very good ones. That is a nod to operating within a real-world context. And so is using subwoofers IMHO.

I'm just observing that when subwoofers are added to the equation, my opinion of the main speakers changes significantly, so if I were designing a speaker to be used with bass management, I'd probably want to assess it that way, with mics and ears.
That is reasonable but not my preference since LR-4 @ 80Hz might not be my choice or even suitable in any particular application.
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post #1656 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 12:43 PM
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I am referring to the different arrival times and levels at one ear vs. the other when a speakers is located to one side or the other. Also, a listener with a speaker to one side will have a tendency to turn their head to listen, which will change the HRTF. If the speaker is directly in front of the listener, the arrival times and levels will be the same at both ears, and the listener will have the tendency to look straight ahead.



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post #1657 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
That is reasonable but not my preference since LR-4 @ 80Hz might not be my choice or even suitable in any particular application.
Maybe not always the perfect choice, but it certainly is a valid one. Remember, the test is intended to eliminate the bottom 2 octaves from the question of main speaker performance. If LR-4 harms the performance of the DUT, that may suggest further investigation of its design. (We would only be testing speakers intended for 80 Hz crossover, or lower.)

If we want to assess in the context of typical AVRs, then LR-4 is not universal, but more likely a 4th-order low-pass with a 2nd-order high-pass, a leftover of the THX days where the main speakers were to supply a 2nd-order rolloff at 80 Hz.

All this to say that I agree with your point that optimization can get complicated. But it is still valid to constrain variables in a test environment -- it's unavoidable in any tests I have ever seen.

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post #1658 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 01:11 PM
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I would think in the above tests, the first complaint would be you didn’t use the correct subs for my brand of speaker..test invalid
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post #1659 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
What I was saying was that when put to the test, the variations in recordings outweighed the variations in the loudspeakers in the test,{...}
From my experience, I have no doubt this is true. When I have auditioned speakers, I routinely take only material with me that I consider as having a technically excellent recording. I have taken material that I think is not recorded well, for instance, vocal material where the lyrics are unintelligible. In this case, however, I think it safe to say that the recording is the reason even excellent speakers cannot make the lyrics intelligible. In the future, I will have to keep this in mind and take only the excellent recordings.

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post #1660 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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I love this place. I'll be off work another couple weeks and this site keeps me from spending money I haven't earned yet. I'm struggling for an analogy for stereo that wont get me banned, but i'll just say i've invested much of my disposable income into my stereo and the best 'stereo' speakers I ever had were the Revel F52's and I let them go. I keep an eye out for them to come up used. I may be a minority but stereo is my drug of choice and the previous gen had a better delivery system that the current one and I seriously doubt single speaker testing is going to show me why.
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post #1661 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Interesting twist: you said "fabricate" and "reproduce". Fabrications - embellishments - are what a lot of people look for in speakers and upmixing. Often it amounts to adding room reflections, but it can also be the opposite, all in an effort to extract something more rewarding from perceptually hobbled stereo.

Reproduction has been my purpose in life, primarily in the context of sound quality, where daily life gives us exposure to uncorrupted sound. Listeners appear to hear problems more easily than they can recognize virtues. But, in terms of imaging and soundstage there are no references. We have absolutely no idea of what the artists and recording engineer created - it can be almost anything in studio creations. Even symphonic concert hall recordings, which have a chance of having a reference in real life, are in my listening to countless versions of the same movements on Tidal, hugely variable. Some are what I describe as "stretched mono" a small pool of sound in the middle, while those at the other extreme clearly attempt to put me in the hall with the musicians. This all with the same speakers in the same room.

What I was saying was that when put to the test, the variations in recordings outweighed the variations in the loudspeakers in the test, which were considerable: two very different forward firing speakers and a Quad ESL 63.

So when you like what a pair of speakers does to a recording, you attribute virtue to the loudspeaker, when it is the combination at work. The judgement is your opinion, formed using your ears and brain - your perceptual system - which at age 75 (I think you said) is certainly not at its peak performance. I am in the same situation, so this is not a personal slight. We hear what we hear, and it almost certainly is different from those with more normal hearing. Chapter 17 has a discussion of a binaural hearing deficiency called "hidden hearing loss" which must affect our ability to separate sounds in space, very likely causing us to prefer sound fields that are less reflective. It appears in young and old, including those with measurable normal hearing thresholds. This is also discussed in the context of recording engineers, for whom hearing loss of all kinds is an occupational hazard.

You seem to have found something you really like. Good. Enjoy it. It does not mean that those who prefer something else are wrong.

Floyd, again, thanks for your responses. From the mid 1940s I've been told that I hear just fine, but I just don't listen. My hearing, according to the audiologist is fine, but my eyesight is a different matter so I guess I'm turning into the typical geezer in a Buick. Cataract surgery coming up or I'll be Harman's blind' tester.

Anyway, my standard or maybe I should say my focus is a bit different when it come to sound reproduction. I'm into real music on real musical instruments by real musicians in a real space. I started out as a snot faced little punk in 1947 (age 3) off to a local big band, jazz or blues concerts with my grandfather at Country Dinner Playhouse usually or the Männerchor Club. My grandmother thought that where my grandfather like to sit was too loud so often it was me who went with him. We sat 10 -15 rows back. No amplification, which was typical in those days so the 'hall sound' and perspective of the sound stage was an aspect that was ingrained in me since age 3. My dad, who was a MSEE, but was still a hillbilly, took me to blue grass starting at age 10 or so, always in small smoky venues or occasionally outdoor festivals that were all over Southern Ohio. Didn't like the outdoor nearly as well as indoors for the obvious reason and that the richness that all of the room reflections add. Then progressed on so that when I got my license in 1960, I'd be at the drag strip one day and up to Cleveland for the Cleveland Orchestra at Severance or Blossom (in the summer) for Classical the next night. I also played Alto and tenor sax in band and the school's bari sax. So I've been in the middle of the band or orchestra as a player and probably hundreds of times in the audience in several halls and none of this amplified. So that's my early background. Also gave me chance to get these



To me the sound of the hall and the relationship of the music to the hall is just as important as the music itself. I had my Quad ESL57s in 1959 (actually my dad's but 'ended up' in my room) and if I realized that these were very nice midrange 75db one listener speakers and if I sat in just the right spot (nearfield with the speakers out from that front wall) I found that I could get a taste of the complete package ….. the orchestra, the space and the relationship of the orchestra to the space with a pair of stereo speakers. So at that moment I became an irrational, subjectivist, non-scientific, audiophile chasing that holy grail and it's never gone away.

I got very active in the hobby, but knew better not to make it my business, although I worked for a dealer and became a dealer, but for most of my decades, kept it a hobby only. I was going to all of the big shows starting with the last couple of years of the summer CES in NYC before they moved to McCormick Place in Chicago. I've listened to countless speakers of all types and associated equipment over the decades and owned my fair share of it. One factor that I've noticed since the beginning is that there's a big difference from how otherwise pretty good sounding speakers reproduce that three dimensional information. Still is a big factor, but not to the extent as back then best I can recall as many manufactures have upped their game.

I had a good friend who, in the early 70s turned me on to the Tympani IUs and then later the Dayton Wrights. Seemed he always bought first and then I followed along so I can't claim credit for the discovery. He had a local recording studio so I sort of became a 'grunt' and helped with the setup and teardown of live recording sessions, which just fascinated me to no end. Perspective was certainly different from siting row 10-15 for the duration, but was actually more interesting because of the venue. After we'd get the one mic and A77 loaded in the car and off to his house. True, he was going to do editing work the next day, but we couldn't resist listening to the raw unedited tape played back on his Magneplanars right after we got back to his house. What continued to surprise me is how real it all sounded including of course the sound of the venue and relationship of the band to the venue with just two carefully placed speakers in stereo with no DSP or alterations of any kind. This my not be everyone's propriety, but it is my BFD. Frequency response and all is nice, and as I've said many times, side to side tracking or constancy is very important, but all of the other stuff pales in comparison to the hand waving, no metric, hocus pocus stuff I've babbled on about since the 60s and certainly since I've been here. Just because "But, in terms of imaging and soundstage there are no references" doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it's not extremely important to some of us. For me it's my top priority in a system. And sure, of course, it has to be 'captured' in the recording, and I'm not talking about studio recording that are 'assembled', but unamplified, live, full orchestras, blues, bluegrass, etc., performance that are recorded. I now you've been in LA for years and I was there from 1980 - 2010. We have some great venues such as the new Disney and some real stinkers such as the old Hollywood Bowl, Dorothy Chandler and probably the worst I've ever been in, Royce at UCLA, unfair because that venue was designed for speech intelligibility.

There are several of us in this thread who are saying the same. Plus, there are designers/engineers who put every effort into make this experience as real to life as possible, although everyone tells me that's it's more of a 'seat of the pants' thing.

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post #1662 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
You look pretty good for being 110. I know you use dipoles also... Possibly mentioned on another speaker forum on avs?

Yeah, pretty much, I just don't talk about it much

However, over all these years, I've had monopole cone and domes in the other systems in the house

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post #1663 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 02:08 PM
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It is in the picture below his handle, I assumed it was a picture of his room with ML’s. No Sherlock work
Yes, its this room



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post #1664 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 02:13 PM
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The former. One set of subs, optimized for the room. LR-4 crossovers at 80 Hz. Then adjust only delay and gain of the mains for best blend.

You could do that, certainly.

One can rationalize any kind of test one wants to conduct, depending on what the experiment is designed to evaluate. If one wants to evaluate bass-managed system performance comparing stand-mounted and floor standing speakers, then mixed speaker types is the only rational way to proceed.

The key is to explain the intention of the experiment and the parameters of the test in full detail, just as Harman does rigorously. I'd note that subjective tests are not done in anechoic conditions, but in rooms that represent real listening spaces -- probably very good ones. That is a nod to operating within a real-world context. And so is using subwoofers IMHO.

I'm just observing that when subwoofers are added to the equation, my opinion of the main speakers changes significantly, so if I were designing a speaker to be used with bass management, I'd probably want to assess it that way, with mics and ears.

Looked at your HT link. What a FANTASTIC looking space !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #1665 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 02:44 PM
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Looked at your HT link. What a FANTASTIC looking space !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're very kind. Now if we could only convey the sound in a post as easily as we do images.
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I may be a minority but stereo is my drug of choice...
I doubt you are in the minority when it comes to music listening. That's a natural consequence of music being mostly delivered in stereo. But I'd add that even those of us not repelled by the idea of processing the source (upmixing stereo to 5.1...) are not likely to be satisfied since the best music upmixers are all but extinct in current generation hardware. Namely Logic7, Auromatc, and Pro Logic IIx, all quite capable in their own ways. I keep PLIIx on all the time for the envelopment it brings to a low reflection "movie" room.

Spectral decomposition (the current SOTA for movie upmixers) is a spectacular way to separate coherent from diffuse elements of a mix, but it does not make for a compelling music listening experience in my book. Talk about subjective!!
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post #1667 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:17 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"multiple channel system is the way to go over 2 channel system."

Each to his own, but I disagree with that. One reason would be that it massively limits what I can listen to. The only thing remotely interesting might be Steve Wilson's remix/master of Jethro Tull and those are an improvement. I also love the King Crimson, In the Court of the Crimson King, but it's a really poor recording to begin with so it doesn't leave Wilson much to work with. I watch no movies so I have no need for 16.10.20 or whatever its up to these days.

If you have placement questions for the folks here, best thing to do is post room pics and a quickie drawing of dimensions.
Why can't you listen to stereo with a multi channel system? Just switch to direct mode for 2 channel output on your AVR. I want to say Dolby Surround switches to 3.1 when the AVR receives a stereo signal. Gerry stated that a 3.1 system can sound just as good as a 2.1 system with the phantom center image.

Here are the pics of speak locations. I know Gerry said the center channel should not be blocked, but I'm cool with the location. When someone speaks, the audio image sounds like their words are coming directly out their mouth. Oh, sorry about the mess. I installed the speakers this past New Year's Eve.
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post #1668 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Looked at your HT link. What a FANTASTIC looking space !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah it is! Awesome theater Roger!
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post #1669 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post
Chu Gai post from 2007....(Chu I hope you are well).

CHU’S POST

At http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=E...QPN=US5778087# one can obtain John Dunlavy's US Patent 5,778,087 ...

You can save the full document to your hardrive for review or printing, but you may need to make some adjustments to your browser settings. Give it a look. It just might make things better for you.

END OF CHU’S POST
Just for convenience, the patent is available here for easy reading or download.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5778087.html

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #1670 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
When you are talking about the L/R matching of speakers, that is something measurable. Of course, in the real world one does not have such measurements unless you do them yourself. Mismatched L & R loudspeakers are not uncommon. Revel Ultimas are measured and tweaked at the end of the production line - an added expense - to assist in the matter.
I actually thought about swapping the left and right speakers to see if they are mismatched. I think having the left speaker in the opening to the room is the culprit.

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post #1671 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:31 PM
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Why can't you listen to stereo with a multi channel system? Just switch to direct mode for 2 channel output on your AVR. I want to say Dolby Surround switches to 3.1 when the AVR receives a stereo signal. Gerry stated that a 3.1 system can sound just as good as a 2.1 system with the phantom center image.

Here are the pics of speak locations. I know Gerry said the center channel should not be blocked, but I'm cool with the location. When someone speaks, the audio image sounds like their words are coming directly out their mouth. Oh, sorry about the mess. I installed the speakers this past New Year's Eve.

I haven't had a receiver since my Marantz 2270 in the early 70s.
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post #1672 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Just for convenience, the patent is available here for easy reading or download.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5778087.html
Thank you.

Just for clarification, you left out the last line in my quote of Chu’s post. I think it may have been misconstrued as being part of current discussion...which it wasn’t. I left it in because I just quickly cut and pasted. That as well as a slight nod to these discussions on how to place speakers for proper imaging (and imaging in general) have been going on for years and years on AVS.

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post #1673 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Just for convenience, the patent is available here for easy reading or download.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5778087.html
It ain't free if I have to download/install the apps.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1674 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 03:59 PM
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Dear Dr. Toole, I have a few questions about interpreting the measurements which I didn't suceed in finding answers for. For reference here are some of my notes about measurement interpretation:



So my remaining questions are :
  1. Is there such thing as "too much omni-directivity"? Speaker should be smooth even at 70° off-axis, but is it a good thing that it radiates a lot of energy towards the sides with little to no difference in level even at extreme angles? At what degrees-of-axis should the level drop off for home speakers? Is there an optimal "sweet spot" angle where wider dispersion is actually no longer beneficial?
  2. Does THX Ultra specification for Left-Center-Right speakers interfere with Spinorama performance targets? Basically do you think that a speaker made to comply with THX standards for LCR is missing out on something that Revel Saloon2 did not have to limit itself? Primarily speaking about directivity here.
  3. Beaming of tweeters - at what frequencies and how much of a narrowing of the directivity is OK for great speakers? Independent measurements of JBL M2 show that it is not as good at high frequency directivity than at for example 4KHz - how do we know if that is a bad thing or perhaps completely irrelevant?
    >>> See attachment for illustration <<<
    (source: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post380278)
  4. Transition from tweeter to woofer - is it OK to have a sharp step between woofer and tweeter directivity? If not, how much smooting is a good thing if it affects the "straightness of the directivity". Here is an example of a big "step":
    (source: https://en-de.neumann.com/file-finde...egory=monitors)
  5. If "the big step" is a bad thing, does it mean that a big speaker like JBL M2 will always sound better than small JBL LSR705 simply due to the size of its woofer (and associated smoother transition from woofer to waveguide)?
  6. Note - I wish there would be a "Spinorama reference lines" plot (primarily for bookshelf speakers as we want multiple subs for low frequencies). Idealized reference Spinorama plot that would show a target for all real speakers to be compared to. Today I usually consider JBL M2 and 708i Spinoramas as a reference.

I hope this is not too much... And perhaps I just need to read your book for some of these answers.
I will be cruel, and ask you please to get and read my book. All of the answers to those questions and many more are in it. I am getting tired of regurgitating portions of my book in this forum. At least you seem to have read through at least some of the previous posts - good! Trust me when I say that my financial rewards for this sale are utterly trivial

If you have a very specific, time critical, decision, let me know.
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post #1675 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
For me one of the most interesting finding's in Dr. Toole's work is the relevance of the direct sound of a speaker. Given how often we have been told "It's The Room, Dummy" and how "what you hear with any speaker system is dominated by the acoustics of the particular room in which it's placed," I often puzzled over why the same speaker tended to sound the same to me in many different rooms. Like a person speaking in different rooms, it was the same speaker, even though I could hear it was "speaking" in a different room. Dr. Toole's information has made much more sense of this for me.
If it is not the room, then why does Bose build dedicated rooms in malls to display their speakers? There is no way they would sell all those cubes if those cubes were sitting next to some regular bookshelf speakers to compare sonically.

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post #1676 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I haven't had a receiver since my Marantz 2270 in the early 70s.
My fault! What all do you use for home theater?

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post #1677 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 04:08 PM
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We all have our own opinions, and while they may be worthless to others they do work for us. There's nothing wrong with this. We're all looking for personal satisfaction, and we are generally the best judges of what works best for ourselves. Still, it pays to always have an open mind to new data. The more options we're exposed to the more likely we are to find something new that works even better for us than what we previously accepted as optimum. It's a bonus when the new data includes results from the best currently available scientific research.

I first became interested in high fidelity music reproduction as a kid more than 60 years ago and have enjoyed a variety of modest equipment over the decades. My opinions have continuously evolved over that time and this thread has accelerated the process, causing me to re-think my setup yet again. Since this thread started I've relocated my subwoofer and readjusted my mains to better fit what the best available scientific research shows. To my ears the sound has never been better and I'm playing different music non-stop, sometimes to my wife's annoyance.

The technical explanations from Dr. Toole and other knowledgeable professionals contributing to this thread have greatly increased my understanding of how to improve the level of personal satisfaction I'm getting from my current system and is influencing what I will consider for future upgrades. But I also appreciate reading and considering the unscientific opinions of what others think works best for them. For me all aspects of the conversation are entertaining, enjoyable and educational, and I need my daily fix. This is so much better than the bad old days of having to wait a month between issues of the monthly hi-fi magazines.
Well said Dave!

Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).
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post #1678 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 04:12 PM
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My fault! What all do you use for home theater?

If you're asking me, nothing. I think the visual detracts/distracts from the auditory. I generally listen in the dark so the music paints its own picture.

Last edited by Scotth3886; 02-14-2019 at 04:16 PM.
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post #1679 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 04:47 PM
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Just for convenience, the patent is available here for easy reading or download.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5778087.html
It's amazing what one can get a patent for . . .
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post #1680 of 5445 Old 02-14-2019, 04:52 PM
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You cannot remove the HRTF from any listening test. To be glib, my ears don't come off and I cannot bypass them.
Yes. Even a source in front of the listener has HRTFs - everything we hear and have ever heard is processed by our personal HRTFs, and we take them to live performances and reproduced performances. To an individual, they are "invisible". There is evidence that we normalize sounds from different angles based on our life experiences with our hearing systems.
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