How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Attached are the ANSI-CEA-2034-A (Spinorama) test results for the Revel F228Be, Paradigm Persona 3F, and Magico A3.

The double-blind listening test results comparing the Revel and Magico are here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/quvk1ffpqw...20Res.pdf?dl=0
I read somewhere that Bose speakers were developed using the Double Deaf method
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post #1712 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
You will enjoy your cataract surgery. I have been severely myopic all of my life, until cataract surgery. Now, with no glasses, trees have leaves! 4K videos look stunning, no glasses. I wish there was the auditory equivalent . . .

I go to about a dozen Disney Hall performances a year. It is a treat. I enjoy the wonderful sensation of space and envelopment just while people are taking their seats and the orchestra is "tuning up". When the orchestra winds up, it all comes together in a wondrous whole. My last concert was music of John Williams with 100+ musicians and organ - just breathtaking and substantially better than what we hear at cinemas or in our HTs. Nothing I hear at home is as good, but the best can convince me that it is close - none of that is raw stereo. I have mentioned elsewhere that Auro3D recordings of concert hall and cathedral organ have been dangerously close to the real thing - and there was no sweet spot. Until you have experienced it don't knock it.

It is not too late to admit that images can add something to one's pleasure - otherwise live concerts would not exist. When you get your "new eyes", treat them to a high rez image of a good concert. Most of my DVDs, BluRays and about a quarter of my new Kaleidescape files are music concerts of all genres. They are highly variable, but the good ones are very good - high entertainment, and that is what it is all about. Seeing the performers in action is very nice.

Oh yes, some the the surround sound tracks are very engaging.
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post #1713 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Thanks to scientific research the auditory equivalent of cataract surgery is in our future:



sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181015132953.htm
Yes I have read about some of this research. It is mostly directed towards restoring some hearing for those who have none or very little. I doubt that it would be possible to restore "hifi" hearing, at least not in our lifetimes. The changes in upstream, including cortical processing are yet to be addressed.

But we can hope . . .
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post #1714 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
No, I am not. I can listen to them. To be clear, I have another HT system but, after a year or so trying concert BDs, I've found that the visual component usually detracted from my enjoyment of the music.

I'm with you on that. I don't know, maybe it has something to do with getting older in my case. As a teenage I'd love to see a band I worshipped playing. These days I find watching musicians rarely adds to my enjoyment and usually detracts. Frankly, there's little interesting, or even particularly sightly, about someone playing a sax, or trumpet, or whatever. Seeing classical music live performances (video) does nothing at all for me, though I've always loved going to the symphony. I was over at a friends house where we often listen to music on his high end system. But he had his projector on when I joined him and he was watching a live performance (Robert Fripp or someone) and it just seemed to actually distract and dilute the experience for me. I don't need to see some middle aged guy grimacing as he tries to find the right notes. Give me just the music, please.


(There are definitely some exceptions. As an old Rush fan, I love watching Neil Peart play the drums. And as an old Heart fan, I really like a live HD concert I own of theirs).
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post #1715 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 01:13 PM
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The only thing that got me thinking about it was the vid from Crossroads with Bobby Rush. Otherwise, I haven't felt any great need for video. Plus, I likely wouldn't add any other HT hardware other than screen and Blu-ray as the current two channel is immersive enough.
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post #1716 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 01:28 PM
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You may or may not like her (I do), but IMO, "Sade: Bring Me Home-Live" on BluRay is exceptional. What a great band she has working with her.

Live concert and video production are both first rate. A visual experience as well as an aural treat.
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post #1717 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I'm with you on that. I don't know, maybe it has something to do with getting older in my case. As a teenage I'd love to see a band I worshipped playing. These days I find watching musicians rarely adds to my enjoyment and usually detracts. Frankly, there's little interesting, or even particularly sightly, about someone playing a sax, or trumpet, or whatever. Seeing classical music live performances (video) does nothing at all for me, though I've always loved going to the symphony. I was over at a friends house where we often listen to music on his high end system. But he had his projector on when I joined him and he was watching a live performance (Robert Fripp or someone) and it just seemed to actually distract and dilute the experience for me. I don't need to see some middle aged guy grimacing as he tries to find the right notes. Give me just the music, please.


(There are definitely some exceptions. As an old Rush fan, I love watching Neil Peart play the drums. And as an old Heart fan, I really like a live HD concert I own of theirs).
I am just the opposite. Unless it is way too crowded, I would much rather see live music. Going on my third Joe Bonamassa “Keepin the Blues Alive” cruise in a week. I like the spondinaity of live music especially when they combine artists who don’t normally play together.
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I could watch Linda Ronstadt videos all day long singing rock and Sinatra-era songs from her performances in the 1970s and 1980s. For classical music concerts--video and live--my eyes are mostly closed.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000 II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.

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post #1719 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
You may or may not like her (I do), but IMO, "Sade: Bring Me Home-Live" on BluRay is exceptional. What a great band she has working with her.

Live concert and video production are both first rate. A visual experience as well as an aural treat.
Agreed. It is a treat for the eyes and ears.
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post #1720 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post
I am just the opposite. Unless it is way too crowded, I would much rather see live music. Going on my third Joe Bonamassa “Keepin the Blues Alive” cruise in a week. I like the spondinaity of live music especially when they combine artists who don’t normally play together.

I left the wrong impression. I was only talking about watching music performances on video.


To me live music is a whole different thing. Live music has always been a passion - the power of the sound, often the richness of the sound, the energy of the crowd. It's an experience. Unfortunately, for various frustrating reasons, I don't see much live music any more. I actually don't like the "homebody" idea of the audiophile experience, as I would always choose to get out of the house for an experience rather than stay in. But if I'm staying in, and listening to music on my high end system, I don't care for added visuals. Especially for jazz or classical.



(Though, admittedly, in a different context I really enjoy live performances - e.g. going down the rabbit hole of youtube and all the wonderful old performances you can find there. But that to me is a different thing than when I'm in pure listening to music mode).
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post #1721 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 04:07 PM
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Maybe we can now get back to the original topic of "How to select speakers ..."

Please.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
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post #1722 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I will be cruel, and ask you please to get and read my book. All of the answers to those questions and many more are in it. ...
Fair point Thank you!


BTW, for me "Hans Zimmer Live in Prague" Blu-Ray has been a hit with everyone who got to hear it.
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post #1723 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 06:37 PM
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I thought this was a nice spinorama primer https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...ama-Charts.pdf
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post #1724 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 07:43 PM
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Lol...

"Figure 30: Words fail me.... This was sold to unknowing consumers, and, as far as I know, no one went to jail."

I'd like to know what speaker is Brand B though!
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Thumbs up

It's amazing what a few inches of location will do to sound. I moved my right front speaker up a few inches from its original spot and the sound improved a lot without touching any AVR controls.

Pic 1 is the original location.
Pic 2 is the current location.
Pics 3 & 4 show how I used the ceiling to line up the right speaker with the left speaker.

The wife even commented on the improved sound.
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Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).
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How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
No, I am not. I can listen to them. To be clear, I have another HT system but, after a year or so trying concert BDs, I've found that the visual component usually detracted from my enjoyment of the music.


I generally concur, though I enjoy my box set of Mahler symphonies by Claudio Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra.


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post #1727 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 08:49 PM
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I generally concur, though I enjoy my box set of Mahler symphonies by Claudio Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra.
Some of my favorites.
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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1728 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Lol...

"Figure 30: Words fail me.... This was sold to unknowing consumers, and, as far as I know, no one went to jail."

I'd like to know what speaker is Brand B though!
I have just seen this presentation for the first time, and I have not checked with Manny LaCarrubba, but the Spinorama on speaker B looks a lot like the JBL Pro M2, which is on the cover of my new book (also elsewhere in the book, Figure 5.12, and on the JBL Pro website).

Manny is one of the straight shooters in the business. We met when he and his business partner of the time, David Moulton, came to use the NRCC facilities to evaluate an early prototype of their wide dispersion "acoustic lens" high frequency radiator. It wasn't perfect, but showed promise. Eventually it was good enough that B&O used it in their "robot" loudspeaker and in cars (which now are done by Harman). Although Harman has not used the wide dispersion driver design in consumer speakers, there is nothing wrong with it that I know of. In fact an original prototype system brought to Harman was arguably better than the original commercial B&O design.

It's a small world. This is a very good description of what spinorama curves mean. I must thank Manny.

Those who think that spinorama data presentations discriminate against small manufacturers, take note.
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post #1729 of 5417 Old 02-15-2019, 09:19 PM
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As a musician at times I like to be able to watch other musicians playing. Other times I prefer to close my eyes and let the music wash over, around, and through me... I do absolutely hate hearing my own performances, let alone watching my of fart self, as I tend to focus on every little mistake. As for live, sometimes the magic of a great performance in a great venue (be it a concert hall or jazz club, done both) just cannot be matched at home. But often I am happier with a good recording -- quieter, no smoke (OK, not really a problem any more), no coughs or murmurs from the audience, and a better seat than I can usually afford.

Speaking of focus: A lot of this thread has focused on spinoramas. What other scientific, measurable things are important? THD is easy, but I'd love to see more swept-IMD plots. I'd also like to see more phase+magnitude plots (not just magnitude), particularly through the crossover regions. As I've harped on (and on, and on...) before, to me many highly-regarded speakers seem to have problems transitioning through the crossover region even straight on-axis. How do the measurements show that?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #1730 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Eventually it was good enough that B&O used it in their "robot" loudspeaker and in cars (which now are done by Harman). Although Harman has not used the wide dispersion driver design in consumer speakers, there is nothing wrong with it that I know of. In fact an original prototype system brought to Harman was arguably better than the original commercial B&O design.
The "robot" (i.e. Dalek, == BeoLab 5) had horizontal metal (or metal-covered?) rings below the two wide-dispersion drivers. They were not the inverted-funnel sound dispersers, which are *above* the drivers, but rather the platforms in which the drivers were mounted. They both rang when the volume was turned up a bit, the midrange platform especially. I felt of them when first listening and thought, "that can't be good..." and dismissed them out of hand (so to speak). Can it? Do speaker "box" vibrations (same principle) matter if they are "sufficiently" damped? How far off in magnitude (or frequency -- for all I know those vibrations were some divisor of the frequency being radiated) is sufficient?

Related, in the Sausalito Audio Works paper how can figure 26 be "one of the all-time double-blind listening trial champions" with a 5dB dip on-axis at 3500-4100 Hz? That's just above the human voice sibilants, so we humans should be pretty sensitive to variations there... Were the listeners intentionally seated off-axis? Also the off-axis curve is mysteriously better behaved? I don't get it.

In the OT discussion of concert-going vs. videos thereof, my problem with popular music concerts is that they are just too loud! If I have to wear ear plugs -- and I do -- then the visual magic of the performance is compromised by the messed-up audio I am forced to create! (No, I didn't spring for fancy musician's ear plugs -- is that what all the cool kids here do?)

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Originally Posted by trackavsforum View Post
Related, in the Sausalito Audio Works paper how can figure 26 be "one of the all-time double-blind listening trial champions" with a 5dB dip on-axis at 3500-4100 Hz? That's just above the human voice sibilants, so we humans should be pretty sensitive to variations there... Were the listeners intentionally seated off-axis? Also the off-axis curve is mysteriously better behaved? I don't get it.
I would guess that the speakers being compared have some aspect(s) that are a worse sonic transgression than that dip. The measurements do not have to be absolutely perfect, just relatively better than what it's being compared with. Oh, and it's a high Q dip, so far less audible than a low Q FR abnormality.

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post #1732 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 10:28 AM
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I wonder how their speakers sound with that low Q issue around their 1k crossover. Everything else looks amazing.

Guessing pretty great unless you're too far off axis. Then it would sound a little strange?

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post #1733 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I would guess that the speakers being compared have some aspect(s) that are a worse sonic transgression than that dip. The measurements do not have to be absolutely perfect, just relatively better than what it's being compared with. Oh, and it's a high Q dip, so far less audible than a low Q FR abnormality.
EDIT - This post is completely revised because of my confusion in identifying the curves. My apologies.

Yes, everything is relative . The curves shown in figure 26 look like the first gen Revel Salon. Most competing speakers at or above its price were significantly worse at the time (and even now). And, it did actually win or at worst statistically tie all products it was compared with in double-blind tests while it was a current product. An equally winning competitor was the Infinity Prelude MTS (ca.2000) shown in his figure 28. One of its great advantages was that it had a powered closed box subwoofer that was hard to ignore. It was a significant feat of engineering as its physical form was not acoustically ideal - but cool looking. The cones and domes were CMMD, a ceramic/aluminum sandwich (a Harman patent) that was extremely stiff and light. It continues to be used.

As far as what the curves tell us, we can see in both spinoramas the very common off-axis dip around 2 kHz due to the directivity mismatch between the midrange and tweeter. See the discussion of this in Figure 12.4 in my book The dip mentioned by trackavsforum is an acoustical interference dip that all but disappears in the listening window average. Narrow dips are very hard to hear, and more so when they appear only in the direct sound - humans are much more responsive to peaks than dips - but even that got eliminated in later versions. Likely to have been more audible is the resonance at 600 Hz. The CMMD diaphragms in the Infinity product (figure 28) had no resonances within their operating bands. The wider dispersion/lower DI implied by the curves in figure 26 for the Revel are the result of having a second tweeter on the rear of the speaker, a practice that has been discontinued.
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post #1734 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
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… Those who think that spinorama data presentations discriminate against small manufacturers, take note.
Since I previously addressed this I'd like to further explain my point that was made in response to a post by @SoundStage! mentioning that CRC has recently nearly doubled the rates charged for testing speakers at their facility. My point was that speaker prototype testing is part of R&D expense and extensive speaker testing can be costly. That R&D expense, which remains the same regardless of number of units sold, must be recovered through income from speaker sales. The more units sold the lower the R&D expense per unit sold. So, all other factors equal, larger manufacturers that sell more speakers can gain a cost-per-unit advantage. This is the only "discrimination" against small speaker manufacturers I was referencing.
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post #1735 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
As a musician at times I like to be able to watch other musicians playing. Other times I prefer to close my eyes and let the music wash over, around, and through me... I do absolutely hate hearing my own performances, let alone watching my of fart self, as I tend to focus on every little mistake. As for live, sometimes the magic of a great performance in a great venue (be it a concert hall or jazz club, done both) just cannot be matched at home. But often I am happier with a good recording -- quieter, no smoke (OK, not really a problem any more), no coughs or murmurs from the audience, and a better seat than I can usually afford.

Speaking of focus: A lot of this thread has focused on spinoramas. What other scientific, measurable things are important? THD is easy, but I'd love to see more swept-IMD plots. I'd also like to see more phase+magnitude plots (not just magnitude), particularly through the crossover regions. As I've harped on (and on, and on...) before, to me many highly-regarded speakers seem to have problems transitioning through the crossover region even straight on-axis. How do the measurements show that?
Non-liner distortion measurements are a nightmare. The common ones, harmonic and intermodulation, are poorly correlated with how things sound with music in rooms. Humans do not hear all of the distortion components that are measured so the numerical measurements are wrong. They are useful to engineers, to whom the only meaningful number is zero. There are newer versions that include some psychoacoustics, taking into account the perceptual masking. It's in the book.

Humans do not hear phase or phase shift in the final sound that emerges from loudspeakers. We do not hear waveforms, whether they are impulses, steps, square waves or any voice or instrument of music - however much it appeals to one's engineering instincts. However, phase matters enormously in crossover regions where acoustical summation is the key. Imperfections will show up in on- and off-axis anechoic frequency-response measurements, which are used by designers to optimize the crossover designs. These days, for those who have the facilities, one can do spinoramas on each transducer in a system, design the crossover in a computer, and predict the final spinorama with impressive accuracy. Such systems are truly rare, but nice if you have one.

All that said, when we cannot get manufacturers to reveal old fashioned frequency response in a meaningful manner, anything more is even less likely
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post #1736 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 01:29 PM
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I go to about a dozen Disney Hall performances a year. It is a treat. I enjoy the wonderful sensation of space and envelopment just while people are taking their seats and the orchestra is "tuning up". When the orchestra winds up, it all comes together in a wondrous whole. My last concert was music of John Williams with 100+ musicians and organ - just breathtaking and substantially better than what we hear at cinemas or in our HTs.
The day before Super Bowl I attended LA Phil's performance of Also Sprach Zarathustra, the impressive opening well known from Kubrick's 2001. A knockout for sure, but what really impressed was the string sections (8 double basses!) in the remainder of the piece. It was so fantastic that I went back for an encore matinee performance the next day during the Super Bowl.

Never heard anything approaching that coming out of loudspeakers.

For those in the LA area who love large pipe organs, the 11:00 AM Sunday services at First Congregational Church on Sixth Street feature a marvelous thirty-minute organ prelude at 10:30 AM. It's really two large pipe organs at each end of the church, ganged together like the one in Passau.
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post #1737 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 02:07 PM
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I have just seen this presentation for the first time, and I have not checked with Manny LaCarrubba, but the Spinorama on speaker B looks a lot like the JBL Pro M2, which is on the cover of my new book (also elsewhere in the book, Figure 5.12, and on the JBL Pro M2
I see the JBL Pro M2 has a square waveguide. Did all the speakers that excelled in the test have square waveguide too?

Does a square waveguide perform better than a rectangular waveguide on and off axis? Is the key to using a square waveguide is designing the enclosure the same width as the waveguide like the JBL Pro M2.

Those M2's look nice! They are too big for my room though. I really like the look of the 708i! JBL mentions running the M2 and 708i together for a system. Rockville makes a speaker similar to the 708i, but it has a built in amplifier. I wished they made a passive version of the RPG8.
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Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).
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post #1738 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 02:18 PM
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The dip mentioned by trackavsforum is an acoustical interference dip that all but disappears in the listening window average. Narrow dips are very hard to hear, and more so when they appear only in the direct sound - humans are much more responsive to peaks than dips - but even that got eliminated in later versions. Likely to have been more audible is the resonance at 600 Hz.
Pardon a basic question: when you say "acoustical interference" you mean as in two drivers out of phase, (because different distances to the microphone?) -- like shown http://demoweb.physics.ucla.edu/cont...l-interference
and not some physical thing like the box, ring, or a plastic waveguide thingie? But wouldn't such acoustical interference then be only from a crossover allowing midrange and tweeter to both play those same frequencies -- but that doesn't seem right because wouldn't the dip "roll up" (i.e. tilted, non-symmetric) as one driver turns off, rather than looking so symmetrical?

And wait, you're also saying that the 2 dB dip at 600Hz-700Hz, which shelf then continues thru the rest of the curve, will be more audible than a 6 dB notch varying more broadly across 3500-4100Hz? Is there a well-known answer to "why"? Like... maybe... (a) just because one is at higher frequency and the other at mid, or (b) because you see in the waveform a sharp kink at 600Hz versus the notch dip is smooth? Or (c) because the shelf continues (somehow accentuating it)? Or (d) merely because it is echoed in the far off-axis curves? (Related to (d) note that high-frequency notch is present in the listening-area average too, only 2.5dB rather than 6 (and no "ringing" as it recovers).)

Sorry to make "I don't get it" a habit.

EDIT - I guess because of Floyd's previous answers I'm supposed to choose (c) *and* (d), but... just checking. The 2dB drop looked so small!

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post #1739 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 02:41 PM
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My copy of Sound Reproduction arrived today, and I have some questions about the Olive Experiments - part two. I'm not sure if the text means to imply that the model developed in part two can be generalized. It specifically states that the limited number and limited variation among the speakers in part one prevent generalization, and then states that those issues were addressed in part two. However, I don't see any information that addresses tests for over-training to the data. Specifically I'm wondering if the model was applied to any hold-out data, and if so, how the model performed on the hold-out data, and how that hold-out data was selected. It reads as though the results are from a "train on all, test on all" approach, which gives us little information about applicability to speakers not included in the test. The limited number of features (factors) is a good sign, but it's always nice to show the results of the model on data that wasn't used to generate the model. I'm also curious as to the extent of variation in the designs tested. Were significant numbers of full range speakers, planars, dipoles, waveguides, and line arrays included? How about variations of integration into boundaries, including on-wall, in-wall, and woofers near the floor?
It would also be interesting to know what factors were considered for inclusion in the model that were ultimately rejected. Phase linearity, non-linear distortion, cabinet acoustic emissions, etc?
I appreciate any additional information.
Sorry for the delayed response. First, now that you have the book you have an opportunity to find out for yourself why some factors were included and others excluded from the Olive experiments. Not everything matters, even if it is measurable. Second, once you have digested the background to the experiments I think you need to discuss the details with Olive himself - he dips into this thread from time to time.

There is much more detail about the experiments in the original Olive papers than in the brief summary in my book:
Olive, S.E. (2004a). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 1 – listening test results”, 116th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6113.
Olive, S.E. (2004b). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 2 – development of the model”, 117th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6190.
There is also a patent.
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post #1740 of 5417 Old 02-16-2019, 03:12 PM
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Pardon a basic question: when you say "acoustical interference" you mean as in two drivers out of phase, (because different distances to the microphone?) -- like shown http://demoweb.physics.ucla.edu/cont...l-interference
and not some physical thing like the box, ring, or a plastic waveguide thingie? But wouldn't such acoustical interference then be only from a crossover allowing midrange and tweeter to both play those same frequencies -- but that doesn't seem right because wouldn't the dip "roll up" (i.e. tilted, non-symmetric) as one driver turns off, rather than looking so symmetrical?

And wait, you're also saying that the 2 dB dip at 600Hz-700Hz, which shelf then continues thru the rest of the curve, will be more audible than a 6 dB notch varying more broadly across 3500-4100Hz? Is there a well-known answer to "why"? Like... maybe... (a) just because one is at higher frequency and the other at mid, or (b) because you see in the waveform a sharp kink at 600Hz versus the notch dip is smooth? Or (c) because the shelf continues (somehow accentuating it)? Or (d) merely because it is echoed in the far off-axis curves? (Related to (d) note that high-frequency notch is present in the listening-area average too, only 2.5dB rather than 6 (and no "ringing" as it recovers).)

Sorry to make "I don't get it" a habit.

EDIT - I guess because of Floyd's previous answers I'm supposed to choose (c) *and* (d), but... just checking. The 2dB drop looked so small!
Acoustical interference occurs when two or more sounds combine. In phase they add and a peak results, out-of-phase and a cancellation dip results. The second sound(s) in this case could be diffraction from a cabinet edge or edges. Symmetry is a problem with on-axis curves which is one reason why I started doing listening window curves at the NRCC in 1983. Cabinet diffraction/reflection seems likely in this case as it degrades quickly as the mic is moved off axis. The current generation of Revel Salons have more sculpted shapes to minimize diffraction. This is basic physics, known for generations, but sometimes "style" and industrial designers get in the way. Such interferences between drivers in crossover regions are usually broader. It is fortunate in general that humans respond much more to too much sound (a peak) than too little ( a dip). A broadband (low-Q) resonance is audibly detectable with an amplitude bump of less than 1 dB, about 1/3-dB for pink noise.

The effect I was referring to at 600 Hz is the peak, not the dip that follows it. There is also the step, the discontinuity, in the output which further draws attention to that frequency region - both are problems. The evidence that it is a resonance is the fact that it appears in all of the curves, the bottom one being a combination of 70 measurements - that's a resonance, not acoustical interference.

This is why many curves, much data, is necessary to be analytical about what is going on, and how a loudspeaker might sound.
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