How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 59 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1741 of 5422 Old 02-16-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Sorry for the delayed response. First, now that you have the book you have an opportunity to find out for yourself why some factors were included and others excluded from the Olive experiments. Not everything matters, even if it is measurable. Second, once you have digested the background to the experiments I think you need to discuss the details with Olive himself - he dips into this thread from time to time.

There is much more detail about the experiments in the original Olive papers than in the brief summary in my book:
Olive, S.E. (2004a). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 1 – listening test results”, 116th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6113.
Olive, S.E. (2004b). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 2 – development of the model”, 117th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6190.
There is also a patent.
Thanks for posting. I'm an AES member and reading articles about multiple regression models is visual music to my ears as I do forms of regression analysis in my marketing research day job at times. Looks like a worthy reading project.
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post #1742 of 5422 Old 02-16-2019, 04:04 PM
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... Rockville makes a speaker similar to the 708i, but it has a built in amplifier. I wished they made a passive version of the RPG8.
For $99 I wouldn't expect Rockville's RPG8 (or a hypothetical passive variant) to be in the same league with the 708i.
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post #1743 of 5422 Old 02-16-2019, 04:18 PM
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Agreed! But, I don't need to be in the best league.

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post #1744 of 5422 Old 02-16-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
The curves shown in figure 26 look like the first gen Revel Salon.
Did some digging and with 99% certainty the figure 26 should be the first gen Revel Studio (almost the same thing, but as there is so much discussion around just this spinorama, here is a clarification).
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post #1745 of 5422 Old 02-16-2019, 05:47 PM
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Did some digging and with 99% certainty the figure 26 should be the first gen Revel Studio (almost the same thing, but as there is so much discussion around just this spinorama, here is a clarification).
Thanks, my memory ain't what it used to be and that was a while ago . The diffraction is likely associated with the (to me) oddly complicated structures on the front and sides of the enclosure - now gone. Styling not acoustical engineering. Nevertheless, a very neutral loudspeaker.
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post #1746 of 5422 Old 02-16-2019, 09:16 PM
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Lol...

"Figure 30: Words fail me.... This was sold to unknowing consumers, and, as far as I know, no one went to jail."

I'd like to know what speaker is Brand B though!
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I have just seen this presentation for the first time, and I have not checked with Manny LaCarrubba, but the Spinorama on speaker B looks a lot like the JBL Pro M2, which is on the cover of my new book (also elsewhere in the book, Figure 5.12, and on the JBL Pro website).

Manny is one of the straight shooters in the business. We met when he and his business partner of the time, David Moulton, came to use the NRCC facilities to evaluate an early prototype of their wide dispersion "acoustic lens" high frequency radiator. It wasn't perfect, but showed promise. Eventually it was good enough that B&O used it in their "robot" loudspeaker and in cars (which now are done by Harman). Although Harman has not used the wide dispersion driver design in consumer speakers, there is nothing wrong with it that I know of. In fact an original prototype system brought to Harman was arguably better than the original commercial B&O design.

It's a small world. This is a very good description of what spinorama curves mean. I must thank Manny.

Those who think that spinorama data presentations discriminate against small manufacturers, take note.
It's actually the JBL 708P

Have a look at this document on the 708P, also from Sausalito Audio:

https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...08P-Charts.pdf

You can see that the plots are the same as the Brand B plots.
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post #1747 of 5422 Old 02-17-2019, 07:33 AM
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Agreed! But, I don't need to be in the best league.
Then take a look at the JBL 3 series and Kali audio offerings. Guitar Centers carry them so you can do some direct comparisons in your room and return them if you so choose.

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It's actually the JBL 708P

Have a look at this document on the 708P, also from Sausalito Audio:

https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...08P-Charts.pdf

You can see that the plots are the same as the Brand B plots.
Those mischievous 7 series spoofing the M2 again.
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post #1748 of 5422 Old 02-17-2019, 09:26 AM
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It's actually the JBL 708P

Have a look at this document on the 708P, also from Sausalito Audio:

https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...08P-Charts.pdf

You can see that the plots are the same as the Brand B plots.
You are right, thanks. The differences are more clear in our full bandwidth anechoic plots, but Manny is doing useful stuff in his >500 Hz limited facility. Good!

As you say "Those mischievous 7 series spoofing the M2 again". They do it in sound quality as well as in measurements. The Revel speakers exhibit the same behavior. That is precisely what is possible when competent engineers follow the scientific guidance. When the measurements look good the sound quality will be good. When the measurements look the same, the sound quality will be very much the same.

It is nice to see someone else doing what they can to generate useful data and publishing it, even on Harman products.
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post #1749 of 5422 Old 02-17-2019, 12:55 PM
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Were all the speakers in the test self powered and have dsp? If not, then here we go with the apples to oranges comparison.

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post #1750 of 5422 Old 02-17-2019, 01:20 PM
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Were all the speakers in the test self powered and have dsp? If not, then here we go with the apples to oranges comparison.
It doesn't matter if it is the measurements and sound quality you are concerned with. If the curves look good, they will sound good. It is then up to you to decide whether you want active or passive. It is true that active speakers with DSP normally have an advantage in finessing small details, but in reality there are both active/DSP and well designed passive speakers that are comparably good. If you followed this thread from the beginning it should be clear. There is a choice.
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post #1751 of 5422 Old 02-17-2019, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Sorry for the delayed response. First, now that you have the book you have an opportunity to find out for yourself why some factors were included and others excluded from the Olive experiments. Not everything matters, even if it is measurable. Second, once you have digested the background to the experiments I think you need to discuss the details with Olive himself - he dips into this thread from time to time.

There is much more detail about the experiments in the original Olive papers than in the brief summary in my book:
Olive, S.E. (2004a). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 1 – listening test results”, 116th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6113.
Olive, S.E. (2004b). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 2 – development of the model”, 117th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6190.
There is also a patent.
Thanks for the information. I do hope Olive will comment. I have requested the papers through research gate, but no response yet.
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post #1752 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 12:10 PM
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Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?

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post #1753 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 12:16 PM
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Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?
There is science, and then there is marketing and engineering. Perhaps, sometimes they don’t mesh? Just begging the question really.
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post #1754 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 12:33 PM
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Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?
By same science, I assume you mean same design goals? Not sure I've seen anything to suggest they are, but if you have please share. Paradigm measurements I've seen don't lead me to believe they are shooting for the same thing.

Thanks
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post #1755 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 01:04 PM
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Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. A folksy saying that is true in audio.

Paradigm was one of the first Canadian companies to avail themselves of the facilities and my research findings at the NRCC. That was many years ago. Initially they worked hard to follow the guidance. Figure 18.4(e) shows their model 7se which was a high scoring speaker in its day.

They now have their own anechoic chamber and have gone their own way with respect to "voicing". A bass rise was one of the early "innovations", perhaps building in a bit of "loudness" bass boost for lower level listening. I don't know. I think they still advertise their connection to the NRCC research, but as the recent spinoramas are telling us, they are not following it as rigorously as they could. Maybe they know better. Business is business.
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post #1756 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 01:39 PM
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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. A folksy saying that is true in audio.

Paradigm was one of the first Canadian companies to avail themselves of the facilities and my research findings at the NRCC. That was many years ago. Initially they worked hard to follow the guidance. Figure 18.4(e) shows their model 7se which was a high scoring speaker in its day.

They now have their own anechoic chamber and have gone their own way with respect to "voicing". A bass rise was one of the early "innovations", perhaps building in a bit of "loudness" bass boost for lower level listening. I don't know. I think they still advertise their connection to the NRCC research, but as the recent spinoramas are telling us, they are not following it as rigorously as they could. Maybe they know better. Business is business.

Oh man, so sorry I'm late. Now what am I supposed to drink?
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post #1757 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 01:47 PM
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I always thought the measurements of some of the Energy speaker models from the early 2000's looked very impressive, but where is the company now?
With so many things, marketing sells.
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post #1758 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 02:02 PM
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I always thought the measurements of some of the Energy speaker models from the early 2000's looked very impressive, but where is the company now?
With so many things, marketing sells.
"Modest Build: 13'X14' - $5000 all in"

How on earth did you build that for only $5,000? That looks great!
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post #1759 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 02:25 PM
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I might as well ask while it's on my mind:

There's something about the Bowers & Wilkins 700 series that really bothers my ears. Something to do with the treble sounding harsh. Is that just distortion, or is it a strange, intentional design choice?
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post #1760 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 02:32 PM
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I might as well ask while it's on my mind:

There's something about the Bowers & Wilkins 700 series that really bothers my ears. Something to do with the treble sounding harsh. Is that just distortion, or is it a strange, intentional design choice?

I have no excuse for this one, but I bought a pair of 685 S2s about three years ago. I bet they have less that five hours on them. I couldn't stand them. 'House sound' I guess.
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post #1761 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 02:59 PM
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I have no excuse for this one, but I bought a pair of 685 S2s about three years ago. I bet they have less that five hours on them. I couldn't stand them. 'House sound' I guess.
I listened to those for about an hour a few years ago, and while I did find the treble a bit unclear/messy, almost staticky even, I didn't find them physically painful to listen to like the 700 series.
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post #1762 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 03:27 PM
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Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?
This is not the first time I have heard this said.
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post #1763 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 03:44 PM
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I have seen spinoramas on numerous B&W models over many years. When John Bowers was alive he used NRCC measurements and our blind listening evaluations in his deliberations. There was an attempt to present a consistent timbral impression across models. We became friends and he gave me a pair of the "pregnant robots" The DM-6, which graced my living room for a while. They were a serious attempt to be neutral.

In his absence things have clearly changed. In recent years the evidence I have seen indicates that if there is a "house sound" I cannot identify it. Neutral is not it, even in the top models in the lineup - see Figure 12.3 shows the 802N from a few years ago. The more current 803 D3 is different, still not neutral, having a significant treble emphasis and a similar DI issue. A 6-inch-midrange to- 1-inch tweeter transition without a waveguide on the tweeter leads inevitably to a DI discontinuity. I suspect that the marketing dept. has something to do with the continued use of this stylistic idiom. One cannot argue with sales, though . . . or can one
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post #1764 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 03:58 PM
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I listened to those for about an hour a few years ago, and while I did find the treble a bit unclear/messy, almost staticky even, I didn't find them physically painful to listen to like the 700 series.
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I have seen spinoramas on numerous B&W models over many years. When John Bowers was alive he used NRCC measurements and our blind listening evaluations in his deliberations. There was an attempt to present a consistent timbral impression across models. We became friends and he gave me a pair of the "pregnant robots" The DM-6, which graced my living room for a while. They were a serious attempt to be neutral.

In his absence things have clearly changed. In recent years the evidence I have seen indicates that if there is a "house sound" I cannot identify it. Neutral is not it, even in the top models in the lineup - see Figure 12.3 shows the 802N from a few years ago. The more current 803 D3 is different, still not neutral, having a significant treble emphasis and a similar DI issue. A 6-inch-midrange to- 1-inch tweeter transition without a waveguide on the tweeter leads inevitably to a DI discontinuity. I suspect that the marketing dept. has something to do with the continued use of this stylistic idiom. One cannot argue with sales, though . . . or can one

I bought them on a whim without listening to them at BB to cash in some credit card reward points that were about to expire. I know, I know, what a dumbass thing to do. I had them in my office, but rarely listened to anything with vocals, especially in English. With ADD, worked stopped if listening to anything with lyrics that I could understand. Now, as far as who was singing those lyrics, the speakers were colored enough that I generally couldn't recognize the artist. The first set of Elacs B6s I bought are in here now. What a relief.
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post #1765 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 04:11 PM
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One cannot argue with sales, though . . . or can one
That sounds like a slightly sad story. But in my mind, I like to think I can help combat marketing by simply not buying. That said, I noticed there is a bit of disapproval for Paradigm, and now I'm thinking about my decision to go with Prestige 15B's instead of something from Revel. To my untrained ears, they sounded very similar to the Revel M105 and M106, but I didn't like the price of the C208.

I probably spent about a thousand or more less than if I went with Revel on my L/C/R, and all of those savings are going to a second subwoofer. And since my system is mainly for home theater, I know what I did isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm still young, and these won't be the last speakers I ever use, but I still think about my decision once in a while.
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post #1766 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 04:22 PM
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That sounds like a slightly sad story. But in my mind, I like to think I can help combat marketing by simply not buying. That said, I noticed there is a bit of disapproval for Paradigm, and now I'm thinking about my decision to go with Prestige 15B's instead of something from Revel. To my untrained ears, they sounded very similar to the Revel M105 and M106, but I didn't like the price of the C208.

I probably spent about a thousand or more less than if I went with Revel on my L/C/R, and all of those savings are going to a second subwoofer. And since my system is mainly for home theater, I know what I did isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm still young, and these won't be the last speakers I ever use, but I still think about my decision once in a while.

I like those and good reviews too

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index...b-loudspeakers
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post #1767 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 04:31 PM
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Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?
This is my theory. The old series (Signature) was much more like Revel. But with their new generation (Persona) they decided on trying to copy the B&W sound signature to court older (more wealthy buyers):

Paradigm Signature (S1)



Paradigm Persona (B)



Bowers & Wilkens (705)

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post #1768 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 05:12 PM
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This is my theory. The old series (Signature) was much more like Revel. But with their new generation (Persona) they decided on trying to copy the B&W sound signature to court older (more wealthy buyers):

Paradigm Signature (S1)



Paradigm Persona (B)



Bowers & Wilkens (705)

You said: "to copy the B&W sound signature to court older (more wealthy buyers)"

Hey, careful there!!! I'm old, and have enough money to afford whatever speakers I want, but that does not mean that I have lost my ability to hear flaws in loudspeakers I know many other older people with money and taste too

Seriously, it is a puzzle why this sort of thing happens. Maybe we are reverting to another "age of the golden ear".
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post #1769 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 05:19 PM
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Haha, but wasn't all the rage back in the 80s the Smiley Face Curve with boosted highs and bass? I'm saying it's hearkening back to the good old days
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post #1770 of 5422 Old 02-18-2019, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
Haha, but wasn't all the rage back in the 80s the Smiley Face Curve with boosted highs and bass? I'm saying it's hearkening back to the good old days
Yes, I remember those old days, but not everyone went along with it - fortunately. At the time any bass was a novelty to most people and a bit of zip at the top was obviously forgivable. In these recent examples there is a significant resonant "HONK" in the middle (500-1000 Hz) that detracts from the old pattern.

As I said, it is puzzing because there is no scientific or historical reason for such targets. In the old days the goal was to sound "different" and thereby attract the listener's attention in a showroom. But now those are hard to find. In a blind test against a neutral speaker they would definitely sound "different", which in that context is not a good thing.
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