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post #1771 of 5358 Old 02-18-2019, 09:44 PM
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Oh man, so sorry I'm late. Now what am I supposed to drink?
You've got nothing to worry about. You've been drinking the Kool-aid, not the water .
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post #1772 of 5358 Old 02-18-2019, 10:06 PM
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You've got nothing to worry about. You've been drinking the Kool-aid, not the water .

Provided that it doesn't say JBL on the bottle, I'm happy
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post #1773 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 05:42 AM
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The measurements for the Paradigm Prestige 15B are surprisingly poor.





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post #1774 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 06:06 AM
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The measurements for the Paradigm Prestige 15B are surprisingly poor.
But, how do they sound?
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post #1775 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 06:12 AM
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Provided that it doesn't say JBL on the bottle, I'm happy



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post #1776 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 06:18 AM
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Paradigm's older series seem to measure well (Studio and Signature), however, their newer Prestige series does not. There is only one speaker from their Persona series that has measurements on the soundstage website and it doesn't look great.

As long time fan of Paradigm speakers, I find this disappointing. I wonder the reason for this. Could it be simply be they feel as though they have to make a new series sound different from on older series to give someone a reason to "upgrade"? Raise the price and make sure it definitely sounds different, have a salesman try to convince someone that it is indeed superior, triggering the placebo effect in full.

If you peruse the Paradigm owner's thread on AVS, most people in their are going on about how much better their new Prestige series speakers sound over their older Studios. However, the measurements suggest otherwise.

Last edited by buckchester; 02-19-2019 at 06:25 AM.
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post #1777 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 06:57 AM
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Provided that it doesn't say JBL on the bottle, I'm happy
Whatever floats your boat. I like or dislike speaker designs, not speaker brands.
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post #1778 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 07:11 AM
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I'll pass on that bottle too.
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post #1779 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 07:16 AM
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Paradigm's older series seem to measure well (Studio and Signature), however, their newer Prestige series does not. There is only one speaker from their Persona series that has measurements on the soundstage website and it doesn't look great.

As long time fan of Paradigm speakers, I find this disappointing. I wonder the reason for this. Could it be simply be they feel as though they have to make a new series sound different from on older series to give someone a reason to "upgrade"? Raise the price and make sure it definitely sounds different, have a salesman try to convince someone that it is indeed superior, triggering the placebo effect in full.

If you peruse the Paradigm owner's thread on AVS, most people in their are going on about how much better their new Prestige series speakers sound over their older Studios. However, the measurements suggest otherwise.

It's been a while since I've heard them. I think it was 2014 AXPONA. How long has the new series been out?
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post #1780 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
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Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
Paradigm's older series seem to measure well (Studio and Signature), however, their newer Prestige series does not. There is only one speaker from their Persona series that has measurements on the soundstage website and it doesn't look great.

As long time fan of Paradigm speakers, I find this disappointing. I wonder the reason for this. Could it be simply be they feel as though they have to make a new series sound different from on older series to give someone a reason to "upgrade"? Raise the price and make sure it definitely sounds different, have a salesman try to convince someone that it is indeed superior, triggering the placebo effect in full.

If you peruse the Paradigm owner's thread on AVS, most people in their are going on about how much better their new Prestige series speakers sound over their older Studios. However, the measurements suggest otherwise.

It's been a while since I've heard them. I think it was 2014 AXPONA. How long has the new series been out?
I believe that's when the Prestige series was introduced.

Most of the things people are saying on the Paradigm owner's thread seems to be that the Prestige has more bass and sound "clearer" than the Studios. Looking at the measurememts, they do seem to have a mid bass hump and heightened treble above 5khz.

I can see how someone might find a speaker with a bass hump more preferable, especially on a recording that could use more bass. I can also see how someone might initially mistake heightened treble for superior clarity (especially in an untrained listener). However, I think after time one would come to associate that with excessive brightness instead, untrained listener or not. Unless of course they are using room correction in which case all bets are off.
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post #1781 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
Paradigm's older series seem to measure well (Studio and Signature), however, their newer Prestige series does not. There is only one speaker from their Persona series that has measurements on the soundstage website and it doesn't look great.

As long time fan of Paradigm speakers, I find this disappointing. I wonder the reason for this. Could it be simply be they feel as though they have to make a new series sound different from on older series to give someone a reason to "upgrade"? Raise the price and make sure it definitely sounds different, have a salesman try to convince someone that it is indeed superior, triggering the placebo effect in full.

If you peruse the Paradigm owner's thread on AVS, most people in their are going on about how much better their new Prestige series speakers sound over their older Studios. However, the measurements suggest otherwise.
At least to me, this situation speaks volumes about the value of good data and spins!
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post #1782 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 08:02 AM
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At least to me, this situation speaks volumes about the value of good data and spins!
Speaking of "good data & spins" - how do we assess Center Channel capabilities? Most of what I've read in this thread seems to focus on monophonic testing of floor standers & book shelves designed for 2 channel systems- as far I can tell there have been few, if any evaluations of center channel speakers. If I'm primarily focused on 7.1.4 HT material - how do you find relevant data for CC's? Can you extrapolate from the evaluation of a floor stander that may have a matching center? How important are the off axis measurements for center channels? I'm curious - since so much of the material in movie soundtracks is center channel centric and the center channel is usually considered the most important speaker in a multi channel system.

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post #1783 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 08:22 AM
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Speaking of "good data & spins" - how do we assess Center Channel capabilities? Most of what I've read in this thread seems to focus on monophonic testing of floor standers & book shelves designed for 2 channel systems- as far I can tell there have been few, if any evaluations of center channel speakers. If I'm primarily focused on 7.1.4 HT material - how do you find relevant data for CC's? Can you extrapolate from the evaluation of a floor stander that may have a matching center? How important are the off axis measurements for center channels? I'm curious - since so much of the material in movie soundtracks is center channel centric and the center channel is usually considered the most important speaker in a multi channel system.
The non-practical answer is to use 3 identical vertical speakers.
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post #1784 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 08:31 AM
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I believe that's when the Prestige series was introduced.

Most of the things people are saying on the Paradigm owner's thread seems to be that the Prestige has more bass and sound "clearer" than the Studios. Looking at the measurememts, they do seem to have a mid bass hump and heightened treble above 5khz.

I can see how someone might find a speaker with a bass hump more preferable, especially on a recording that could use more bass. I can also see how someone might initially mistake heightened treble for superior clarity (especially in an untrained listener). However, I think after time one would come to associate that with excessive brightness instead, untrained listener or not. Unless of course they are using room correction in which case all bets are off.
That is a big pet peeve. Once I hear that I move on to another room. However, for me, all this handwaving, three dimensional stuff is what's number one to me or as Kevin describes it: "catnip to audiophiles". No truer words.

I've been going to the big audio shows since 1968 or 69 (last two years of the NYC Summer CES). As I've gotten older, the shows tend to be a bit of a blur with me remembering rooms/equipment I really liked and stuff I didn't like. The 80 or 90% in the middle, I can't recall all that well. The rooms I really liked are few in re the 2018 show and that being the Raidho, Von Schweikert, Gamut, Elac (for the price) and only one of the three ML rooms, but this was the new location in a new hotel so there were folks struggling with the rooms. Probably my favorite room in 2017, 1247, the Constellation room, was one of the most unpleasant in 2018 with the exact same equipment.

I try to get up there on Thursday night so that my ears have a good rest before I head to the show on Friday morning versus getting out of the car after a 5+ hour drive from C-bus and trying to listen. Very quiet car, but there's still some level of fatigue after a drive, especially going through metro Chicago.

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post #1785 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 08:52 AM
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That is a big pet peeve. Once I hear that I move on to another room. However, for me, all this handwaving, three dimensional stuff is what's number one to me or as Kevin describes it: "catnip to audiophiles". No truer words.

I've been going to the big audio shows since 1968 or 69 (last two years of the NYC Summer CES). As I've gotten older, the shows tend to be a bit of a blur with me remembering rooms/equipment I really liked and stuff I didn't like. The rooms I really liked are few with 2018 being the Raidho, Gamut, Elac (for the price) and only one of the three ML rooms, but this was the new location in a new hotel so there were folks struggling with the rooms. Probably my favorite room, 1247, the Constellation room, in 2017 was one of the most unpleasant in 2018 with the exact same equipment.

I try to get up there on Thursday night so that my ears have a good rest before I head to the show on Friday morning versus getting out of the car after a 5+ hour drive from C-bus and trying to listen. Very quiet car, but there's still some level of fatigue after a drive, especially going through metro Chicago.
The best 3d imaging I have heard was not at any show but at RUR’s (Ken) house using Emerald Physics speakers and a Trinnov processor for crossover duties.
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post #1786 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 08:58 AM
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I have a question about interpreting the Performa3 spins. Above 1 kHz, the F206 shows more variation than the F208, which I understand is the result of acoustical interference. Is it possible to tell from the graphs whether these differences will be audible? The threshold for audibility of resonances is precisely described in Dr. Toole’s writings. Can we tell similarly at what point acoustical interference becomes significant enough to be audible?


Do these two models sound different in blind tests, apart from dynamic capability and bass extension?
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post #1787 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 09:14 AM
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The non-practical answer is to use 3 identical vertical speakers.
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Speaking of "good data & spins" - how do we assess Center Channel capabilities? Most of what I've read in this thread seems to focus on monophonic testing of floor standers & book shelves designed for 2 channel systems- as far I can tell there have been few, if any evaluations of center channel speakers. If I'm primarily focused on 7.1.4 HT material - how do you find relevant data for CC's? Can you extrapolate from the evaluation of a floor stander that may have a matching center? How important are the off axis measurements for center channels? I'm curious - since so much of the material in movie soundtracks is center channel centric and the center channel is usually considered the most important speaker in a multi channel system.
Certainly true - but for the many setups (mine included) where 3 verticals are not practical or possible - it seems like there is a large gap in the knowledge base. Just looking for feedback on how to select a Center Channel, absent any "spin" type of evaluation

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post #1788 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 09:15 AM
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The best 3d imaging I have heard was not at any show but at RUR’s (Ken) house using Emerald Physics speakers and a Trinnov processor for crossover duties.

Are you talking about their open baffle models? I think I've heard these, but again, at shows. I don't get too much chance to hear anything around here because there are so few audiophiles in the C-bus area. Once you get a ways away from NCAA football, nothing much registers here. But yes, the three-dimensional stuff is my BFD. Everything else is a distant second to me. That being said, I expect a speaker to be relatively neutral, but that's where my interests starts.
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post #1789 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 09:20 AM
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Are you talking about their open baffle models? I think I've heard these, but again, at shows. I don't get too much chance to hear anything around here because there are so few audiophiles in the C-bus area. Once you get a ways away from NCAA football, nothing much registers here. But yes, the three-dimensional stuff is my BFD. Everything else is a distant second to me. That being said, I expect a speaker to be relatively neutral, but that's where my interests starts.
Yes, the engineer of that speaker has a new company but can’t remember name or company. Speaker was very neutral. Ken worked very hard getting the crossovers correct with Curt Hoyt of Trinnov...then fine tuning. It had better dynamics than the electrostatics/riibbons I have heard (that are affordable).

Found it...new company (relatively) Clayton Shaw/Spatial.
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post #1790 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 09:45 AM
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Yes, the engineer of that speaker has a new company but can’t remember name or company. Speaker was very neutral. Ken worked very hard getting the crossovers correct with Curt Hoyt of Trinnov...then fine tuning.

In the 90s I was accustomed to not having any crossover unless I was using subs and few of us did in those days. I had two 15" Velodynes during those days, but I don't recall that they were powered. I know I primarily used the ARC Classic 150s and the VTL300s, but I also recall that I had two more monoblocks for the subs, when I used the subs, which was seldom.

Also used (and still have) the James Bongiorno designed x-over when he was with GAS. And I recall now, that I used two Ampzillas or two SAE 2400Ls strapped to mono for the subs so I used tube for full range and SS amps on the subs. The Soundlabs were full range and the ML Statements had these hugely heavy woofer towers so I think I used the Velodynes with the CLSs in the room with the double doors up on the left.




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post #1791 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 09:50 AM
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^^All these stories...James Bongiorno could have his own thread...quite a character. Someone (Nousaine?) told me stories of one of his amp designs blowing up or something. Old timers...any help? On the other hand this is way off topic. Sorry.
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post #1792 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 10:02 AM
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^^All these stories...James Bongiorno could have his own thread...quite a character. Someone (Nousaine?) told me stories of one of his amp designs blowing up or something. Old timers...any help? On the other hand this is way off topic. Sorry.
Yeah, he was a bit of a wild man, RIP. I was in RPV so he was sorta close by though so I could go visit in Montebello. I didn't have too much blow up though, but I sure didn't like the sound of the amps with ESLs. For subs it was fine.

Between him and Luke and Dave Manley (VTL), wow what a time.

True, after a couple thousand posts threads tend to drift a bit into general conversation. Still fun.
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post #1793 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 10:12 AM
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Speaking of "good data & spins" - how do we assess Center Channel capabilities? Most of what I've read in this thread seems to focus on monophonic testing of floor standers & book shelves designed for 2 channel systems- as far I can tell there have been few, if any evaluations of center channel speakers. If I'm primarily focused on 7.1.4 HT material - how do you find relevant data for CC's? Can you extrapolate from the evaluation of a floor stander that may have a matching center? How important are the off axis measurements for center channels? I'm curious - since so much of the material in movie soundtracks is center channel centric and the center channel is usually considered the most important speaker in a multi channel system.
Indeed the center channel is important - it does most of the work in movies. Speaking only for Harman, they are evaluated in exactly the same way as all other loudspeakers. In fact mono listening is the proper way to subjectively evaluate them. Matching to the L&R is important of course, and any responsible manufacturer would work hard to achieve a close match. Using the same or closely related transducers is a start.

Simple MTM center channels tend to have horizontal off-axis problems, but three way centers with a vertical midrange & tweeter in the center avoid that. Off axis performance that matters is accounted for on the listening window measurement - +/- 30 deg horizontal - which is wide enough to describe the direct sound for listeners in properly set up home theaters.

Check out Section 2.4 in Part 2 of the "Designing Home Theaters" series on the companion website to my book: www.routledge.com/cw/toole. It is open access, no charge.

Spinoramas on Revel center channel speakers exist and have been shown on other threads by John Schuermann, if I recall correctly.
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post #1794 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
I have a question about interpreting the Performa3 spins. Above 1 kHz, the F206 shows more variation than the F208, which I understand is the result of acoustical interference. Is it possible to tell from the graphs whether these differences will be audible? The threshold for audibility of resonances is precisely described in Dr. Toole’s writings. Can we tell similarly at what point acoustical interference becomes significant enough to be audible?


Do these two models sound different in blind tests, apart from dynamic capability and bass extension?
The audibility of acoustical interference depends entirely on its origin. If it is diffraction from enclosure edges or design features the measured evidence will be different for every mic location around the speaker. It averages out, sometimes within the listening window measurements. A room with normal reflections assists in disguising the problem. Such interferences should be avoided, but in practice they often are not consequential audible problems. If the interference originates in the crossover between adjacent transducers the directional variations will be less and the consequence will be variations in acoustical output. These will show up in more of the curves in a spinorama and are definitely audible.
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post #1795 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 11:13 AM
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Hi!

About science and spins.

Do Kal and the other reviewers (Who subjectively praised) and all owners of the Paradigm Persona who paid sh.....load of money actually know that for example that the Revel Concerta speaker is clearly a better speaker! and that for a fraction of the price.

When you think of that its almost scary:/

//Mike
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post #1796 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by buckchester View Post
I believe that's when the Prestige series was introduced.

Most of the things people are saying on the Paradigm owner's thread seems to be that the Prestige has more bass and sound "clearer" than the Studios. Looking at the measurememts, they do seem to have a mid bass hump and heightened treble above 5khz.

I can see how someone might find a speaker with a bass hump more preferable, especially on a recording that could use more bass. I can also see how someone might initially mistake heightened treble for superior clarity (especially in an untrained listener). However, I think after time one would come to associate that with excessive brightness instead, untrained listener or not. Unless of course they are using room correction in which case all bets are off.
I should start by saying I do listen at lower levels. I will say that my speakers (Prestige 15B/45C) have ever so slightly louder treble than I'd like, but not in a way that makes me frustrated. I don't detect much distortion either. I would describe the treble as clear, but a little louder than it should be. Unless I'm listening at fairly loud volumes for my taste, I find them not too "sharp" for my ears. I think cutting it a little with EQ might solve my problem here, but some people are against EQ, and I don't understand why.

The touch of extra bass makes sense to me, personally, because like you mentioned, a lot of recordings don't do bass very well. And although it may not be completely accurate, most people do seem to prefer exaggerated bass to some extent. And don't humans have more difficulty hearing frequencies below something like 300 Hz anyway? And doesn't the Concerta2 series have a bump in the bass as well? I'm without a subwoofer at the moment, so I do know I appreciate it.

Another thing: Isn't human hearing not completely level across the entire audible range? But speakers shouldn't be responsible for that with anything other than a flat response, and it should be up to the people making the music to do their jobs properly? Am I getting this right?
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post #1797 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadianatlas View Post
Isn't human hearing not completely level across the entire audible range? But speakers shouldn't be responsible for that with anything other than a flat response, and it should be up to the people making the music to do their jobs properly? Am I getting this right?
Correct, our human hearing doesn't hear equal loudness across the audible range. This can be compensated for in different ways, including simple adjustments of tone controls. Not the job of the loudspeaker.
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post #1798 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
Considering paradigm and revel follow the same science I find it interesting they're research is providing such different results, at least on the spin comparing the 3 $10k speakers. maybe i'm connecting dots that I shouldn't be?


Paradigm speakers used to measure quite well, but not so with their latest.


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post #1799 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
You said: "to copy the B&W sound signature to court older (more wealthy buyers)"



Hey, careful there!!! I'm old, and have enough money to afford whatever speakers I want, but that does not mean that I have lost my ability to hear flaws in loudspeakers I know many other older people with money and taste too



Seriously, it is a puzzle why this sort of thing happens. Maybe we are reverting to another "age of the golden ear".
If it’s a conscious decision to sculpt the response then I’d have thought it wasn’t that hard to get an explanation for the change in approach. And especially so as the speaker design community seems quite small with lots of touch points.



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post #1800 of 5358 Old 02-19-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by miike88 View Post
Do Kal and the other reviewers (Who subjectively praised) and all owners of the Paradigm Persona who paid sh.....load of money actually know that for example that the Revel Concerta speaker is clearly a better speaker! and that for a fraction of the price.
Such things bother me, too, but readers need to take it in a chronological context. Had I reviewed them in the reverse order, I might have had and reported different reactions. (BTW, I reviewed a Performa speaker, not a Concerta.)

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