How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 62 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1831 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Thanks. I knew you or someone would say that. I've used REW maybe three times, and had great difficulty getting the graphs a size that I could screen shot 20hz to 20k and fit in one photobucket screen size without running off of the page. I'll try this again at some point when I have time to figure out how to experiment with the x and y coordinates and be able to screen shot that into one screen page. Otherwise, I can't post it.

"they need to be done in quiet, anechoic spaces"

It's not anechoic but sure is quiet with a noise floor of 18db or 20db if the fridge upstairs is running. Most of my rooms have been around 30db +/-. This room is built in the middle of my basement so when I originally looked at the house I knew I would have at least have quiet going for me.

"The "mystery curves" look like reverberation times. And your room looks to be on the "dead" side."

Agree. I generally don't like dead rooms plus I still have the flutter echo up the stairs. Best thing for me to do is move.
Some cheap 1 inch fluff - fiberglass panels or acoustic foam slabs - will kill the stairwell flutter. Much cheaper than moving . . .
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post #1832 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Please see the attached Spinorama measurements of the B&W D3.
Thank you, Kevin!!! Finally something I can go out (to a Magnoliafied Best Buy) and actually listen to... (Manny's paper is nice, but I'll never find a Procella P28 or "El Diablo", and trying to hear to a JBL 708P in any GuitarCentAshWater store is pointless.) If -- maybe after a week, so we can form our own opinions -- you would care to comment on the "features" of the graph, surely we would all be grateful. As regards this speaker, I can even say it would be Totally Tubular of you:-)
But let me start: Floyd has said peaks are more audible than dips, and the listening window averages out on-axis anomalies (like tweeter waveguides). So what is happening at 420Hz ? The on-axis shows a gradual dip, then a pretty broad peak, so I should be able to hear it distinctly. BUT the listening window shows a narrow notch (ergo I won't hear it?) and then a return to level, no peak. So unless I am exactly on-axis, it isn't audible. (a)Really? (b)What is causing it? There is a pretty big divergence among the curves there, but depending upon where you draw your horizontal "flat" line, no single one of them seems too far off. (I leave any higher-frequency questions for later...) TIA!
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Last edited by trackavsforum; 02-20-2019 at 11:57 AM. Reason: mis-used flat, which it isn't, for level
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post #1833 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Some cheap 1 inch fluff - fiberglass panels or acoustic foam slabs - will kill the stairwell flutter. Much cheaper than moving . . .
Such as something like Owens Corning 703?

https://www.acoustimac.com/ocib1002x4. I wish it came in black.
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post #1834 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Thanks. I knew you or someone would say that. I've used REW maybe three times, and had great difficulty getting the graphs a size that I could screen shot 20hz to 20k and fit in one photobucket screen size without running off of the page. I'll try this again at some point when I have time to figure out how to experiment with the x and y coordinates and be able to screen shot that into one screen page. Otherwise, I can't post it.
You could run a sweep from 20-250, then run one from 250-20k, should allow you to get it all in and use the correct scale.
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post #1835 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
When I found speakers that measured well, they sounded good and right to me.

Understandable.


Speakers that measure well tend to sound "good" to me...but I don't love every speaker I've heard that seems to measure well. And they still seem to sound different enough that I want to audition speakers - even two speakers that measure well - myself vs only relying on measurements.


(Also, occasionally speakers that don't necessarily measure great have also sounded 'good' to me...hence...more reason why I want to audition speakers and not only rely on measurements. Though all things considered, I'd prefer speakers to both measure well for accuracy AND hit my buttons when I'm listening).


BTW,


Some of the Vivid speakers seem to measure pretty well as far as I can tell without actual spinorama data:


https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...nts&Itemid=153


https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=77&Itemid=153


At least they seem to get the first criteria of pretty even on axis response quite well. Though I'm no expert at interpreting the data so maybe there's something obviously amiss in there I'm not aware of?
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post #1836 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bottlemech2 View Post
You could run a sweep from 20-250, then run one from 250-20k, should allow you to get it all in and use the correct scale.

Yeah, I saw that I could do that, but that's what I was trying to avoid. I was trying to get it on one page even if one had to scroll right and left. Photobucket (when it works) won't let me do that.
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post #1837 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
It is described in detail in Floyd Toole's book, with detailed references included. I'd have to look it up.



He talks about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&t=16m56s



at 16m56s to be precise.
I have the book. I will look.

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post #1838 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Yeah, I saw that I could do that, but that's what I was trying to avoid. I was trying to get it on one page even if one had to scroll right and left. Photobucket (when it works) won't let me do that.
Have you tried uploading directly to the forum?
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post #1839 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Understandable.


Speakers that measure well tend to sound "good" to me...but I don't love every speaker I've heard that seems to measure well. And they still seem to sound different enough that I want to audition speakers - even two speakers that measure well - myself vs only relying on measurements.


(Also, occasionally speakers that don't necessarily measure great have also sounded 'good' to me...hence...more reason why I want to audition speakers and not only rely on measurements. Though all things considered, I'd prefer speakers to both measure well for accuracy AND hit my buttons when I'm listening).


BTW,


Some of the Vivid speakers seem to measure pretty well as far as I can tell without actual spinorama data:


https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...nts&Itemid=153


https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=77&Itemid=153


At least they seem to get the first criteria of pretty even on axis response quite well. Though I'm no expert at interpreting the data so maybe there's something obviously amiss in there I'm not aware of?
The Vivids measure extremely well. The looks are up for debate.

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post #1840 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bottlemech2 View Post
Have you tried uploading directly to the forum?
From REW? No, I don't know how or maybe I did at one time and can't anymore.

It's not that big of a deal as I don't pay much attention to numbers other than efficiency, impedance and side to side tracking. In re the aspects I'm interested in, there really isn't a clear way to measure so it's still seat-of-the-pants. The way I've done it for 60+ years

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post #1841 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Such as something like Owens Corning 703?

https://www.acoustimac.com/ocib1002x4. I wish it came in black.
Just go to amazon.com and type in "acoustics absorbers". There are many, many options. For simple flutter echo control in your stairwell even the sexy looking sculptured foam works - but NOT for serious in-listening-room control of reflections.
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post #1842 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:52 PM
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Speakers have to work in a million different rooms. We don’t listen in anechoic chambers. Do you honestly think Paradigm is that incompetent that they couldn’t design a flat measuring speaker if they really wanted to?
I know they have the knowledge and tools but I have not seen any statement from them to explain why they would not want to make them with a flat FR.
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post #1843 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Understandable.


Speakers that measure well tend to sound "good" to me...but I don't love every speaker I've heard that seems to measure well. And they still seem to sound different enough that I want to audition speakers - even two speakers that measure well - myself vs only relying on measurements.


(Also, occasionally speakers that don't necessarily measure great have also sounded 'good' to me...hence...more reason why I want to audition speakers and not only rely on measurements. Though all things considered, I'd prefer speakers to both measure well for accuracy AND hit my buttons when I'm listening).


BTW,


Some of the Vivid speakers seem to measure pretty well as far as I can tell without actual spinorama data:


https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...nts&Itemid=153


https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=77&Itemid=153


At least they seem to get the first criteria of pretty even on axis response quite well. Though I'm no expert at interpreting the data so maybe there's something obviously amiss in there I'm not aware of?
I just had a quick look, but these speakers cannot sound similar. The direct sound is similar, and good but . . .

The Oval has a substantial bass bias if you look at the far off axis curves that take a steep dive above abut 200 Hz.

The Giya has a persistent low-Q energy hump around 500-1000 Hz again as seen in far off-axis curves.

This is why it would be nice to have sound power or DI data from Soundstage. These are audible effects in normally reflective rooms. "Room EQ" cannot fix directivity problems.
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post #1844 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Do they offer a reason to explain why they do not want to
When I see non-flat curves from companies who obviously could do it if they chose to I ask the questions:

Did they expend expensive engineering effort to create the non-flat curves? Was it a "target"? If so, why are all the products not the same?

or,

Did they try to be flat and smooth and could not get there using the industrial design or driver choices dictated by marketing?

or,

????
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post #1845 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
......................That affordable speakers can measure better than the salon 2's can probably heard as less resolution/data retrial .
I cannot understand this sentence. Is it possible for you to restate your point?

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post #1846 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Just go to amazon.com and type in "acoustics absorbers". There are many, many options. For simple flutter echo control in your stairwell even the sexy looking sculptured foam works - but NOT for serious in-listening-room control of reflections.

That would look more acceptable. I was going to do ECM Records jackets on canvas or something over 703

https://www.pinterest.com/steveluttr...cords/?lp=true

Still haven't gotten to it.

"room control of reflections"

These radiate in a figure 8 so not much in the way of issues directly to the sides. I still feel it's somehow related to the 7 1/2' ceilings. I have fantastic 'catnip' in this room, but it's slightly hard sounding. My other seven pairs of cone and dome monopoles are also a bit hard edged down here. I am going to try another DAC other than the DFR. I don't have the complaint with my vinyl, but I listen to Tidal the vast majority of the time because its so easy.
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post #1847 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
The Vivids measure extremely well. The looks are up for debate.

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I've seen a number of people say this on other sites (including more tech-oriented non-audiophile-woo-woo sites).



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I just had a quick look, but these speakers cannot sound similar. The direct sound is similar, and good but . . .

The Oval has a substantial bass bias if you look at the far off axis curves that take a steep dive above abut 200 Hz.

The Giya has a persistent low-Q energy hump around 500-1000 Hz again as seen in far off-axis curves.

This is why it would be nice to have sound power or DI data from Soundstage. These are audible effects in normally reflective rooms. "Room EQ" cannot fix directivity problems.

Thanks for the analysis.


I've auditioned those speakers, and a friend has a pair of somewhat smaller Vivid speakers at the moment as well that I've spent some time listening to. They all sound quite similar from the mids up.


In my case, despite that they seem to be pretty flat on axis in the mids up, I just don't care for how they sound. I wasn't put off by bass in any case. They sound very open and detailed, but sterile, electronic, are words that come to mind. I wonder if something like the low cue hump in presence region would correlate to why I personally don't care for the sound. (Though I haven't liked any of the Vivids I've heard, and I'm not sure they suffer all the same coloration).
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post #1848 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 01:27 PM
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I wish Google Translate had an option to translate audiophile slang descriptions of speaker sound characteristics into audio engineering terms.
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post #1849 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I wish Google Translate had an option to translate audiophile slang descriptions of speaker sound characteristics into audio engineering terms.

Here you go. Borrow mine.

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html
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post #1850 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 01:54 PM
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Thanks. Not as user friendly as Google Translate but better than wild guessing. I don't see in that extensive list a term I've seen several times lately (including in this thread) in reference to speaker performance -- "data retrieval."
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post #1851 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I just had a quick look, but these speakers cannot sound similar. The direct sound is similar, and good but . . .



The Oval has a substantial bass bias if you look at the far off axis curves that take a steep dive above abut 200 Hz.



The Giya has a persistent low-Q energy hump around 500-1000 Hz again as seen in far off-axis curves.



This is why it would be nice to have sound power or DI data from Soundstage. These are audible effects in normally reflective rooms. "Room EQ" cannot fix directivity problems.
So not as well as I thought then. Consider me corrected.

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post #1852 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Thanks. Not as user friendly as Google Translate but better than wild guessing. I don't see in that extensive list a term I've seen several times lately (including in this thread) in reference to speaker performance -- "data retrieval."

I'm amazed how many of Gordan Holt's terms that I still use. Plus, I've added a few to his list such as 'scale' and 'resolve'.

"data retrieval" though? Ewww, that sounds so digital …. double ewww.

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post #1853 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 03:22 PM
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I cannot understand this sentence. Is it possible for you to restate your point?
I was thinking of the f228be that, i'm told measures better as an example as a speaker less expensive with better spins than the salon 2.

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...
Speaking of which, is there a speaker in the Harman line that is a definite “stinker”, ie, didn’t measure well and was still produced?
Just as a guess: Harman Citation 1? Can you trust the quality of any "lifestyle" speaker system?

I wish there would be "wireless", "computer" or "TV" Revel speakers - essentially consumer friendly, elegant speakers that actually come with Spinorama measurements to support their performance.

Currently the best bet is probably the small Pro monitors which are not-at-all consumer friendly or easy to connect to a TV or a smartphone. For example Genelec G One (8010) or JBL One 104 (if I will see a Spinorama for it).

I just can't live with a massive bookshelf + source or a studio monitor + interface + source in every room, but I do care about sound quality and would even like to have a subwoofer as an option.

Let's guess: the sales dep. will say "there is no market for it"
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post #1855 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 03:56 PM
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I was thinking of the f228be that, i'm told measures better as an example as a speaker less expensive with better spins than the salon 2.
Oh. Well, I do not think it measures better overall but, rather, in some ways.
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post #1856 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 03:57 PM
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I was thinking of the f228be that, i'm told measures better as an example as a speaker less expensive with better spins than the salon 2.
Something that would be clear if you read my book is that there is a point of diminishing returns. The dominant problem with speakers that do not sound neutral is resonances. There is a detection threshold for resonances, meaning that not every small bump or dip is audible. If it is not audible, it does not, in practical terms, exist. Then one moves on to other performance parameters, like power handling capabilities, distortion, power compression, and so on. The Salon2 is a very large four-way system - more transducers to share the load - and the small ripples in the spinorama are at or below the detection threshold (this is discussed in detail in an AES paper and my book). The comparison you are speculating about is not apples to apples, except with respect to timbral accuracy. In that respect there are smaller systems that compare favorably with the Salon2, and that is the benefit of competent engineers designing to a known target. But if one wishes to play at high sound levels, including cinema reference level, there are advantages to the large - admittedly more expensive - products. Incidentally, the Ultima2 speakers are all measured and tweaked at the end of the production line - this costs money and delivers confidence. So, as in so many other things in life, you pay your money and you make your choices. Deciding on your needs is a fundamental starting point and it is your huge advantage that for moderate listening levels there are choices.
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post #1857 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I just had a quick look, but these speakers cannot sound similar. The direct sound is similar, and good but . . .

The Oval has a substantial bass bias if you look at the far off axis curves that take a steep dive above abut 200 Hz.

The Giya has a persistent low-Q energy hump around 500-1000 Hz again as seen in far off-axis curves.

This is why it would be nice to have sound power or DI data from Soundstage. These are audible effects in normally reflective rooms. "Room EQ" cannot fix directivity problems.
Dr. Toole, a question: When referring to the Giya. Isn't the low Q hump merely a side effect of the side firing woofers?

I'll make a reference here to the KEF blade2 loudspeaker: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...nts&Itemid=153

It is arguably much worse, in its off-axis behaviour in this regard. Yet, since these problems are at or below the transition frequency most rooms, isn't the direct sound dominant in these cases? I mention this especially because KEF admits to using your research as a guideline, and since these anechoic issues don't show up in steady-state measurements, which are a guideline below the transition frequency to what we perceive in a room.

Does it depend on the size of the room in this particular case?

Thanks in advance.

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post #1858 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 05:07 PM
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Then one moves on to other performance parameters, like power handling capabilities, distortion, power compression, and so on.





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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
The comparison you are speculating about is not apples to apples, except with respect to timbral accuracy. In that respect there are smaller systems that compare favorably with the Salon2, and that is the benefit of competent engineers designing to a known target.


Dr. Toole,


Is timbral accuracy solely the domain of frequency accuracy? Or do other factors, such as you mentioned - power handling, distortion, power compression...and whatever others - also play a role. In other words I'm wondering if, given two speakers that measure essentially the same in accurate frequency response, whether other factors in design or material choices, can aid one speaker in sounding even more timbrally precise and accurate? And could these advantages, if there are any, come in to play even when we aren't talking about the ability of one to simply play louder without distortion? E.g. at moderate listening levels?
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post #1859 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Dr. Toole, a question: When referring to the Giya. Isn't the low Q hump merely a side effect of the side firing woofers?
It may or may not be, but whatever the cause, it should not be there. Woofers operating up to those frequencies would be an odd decision.

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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
since these problems are at or below the transition frequency most rooms, isn't the direct sound dominant in these cases? I mention this especially because KEF admits to using your research as a guideline, and since these anechoic issues don't show up in steady-state measurements, which are a guideline below the transition frequency to what we perceive in a room.

Does it depend on the size of the room in this particular case?

Thanks in advance.
The transition frequency, as described in my book in Section 6.1 is down around 200-300 Hz. It is sometimes rounded up to around 500 Hz, for reasons not well defined but likely related to adjacent boundary effects. But, the phenomenon we are discussing with this loudspeaker is higher than that, and as shown in Figure 5.4, off-axis performance is influential to the final impression well into the 500 Hz frequency range. Figure 5.4(d) shows that the direct sound is a dominant physical factor only at quite high frequencies. Perceptually it is more important at lower frequencies, but one cannot ignore off axis performance, especially when the indiction is of a low-Q resonance - the most easily perceived of all.
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post #1860 of 5313 Old 02-20-2019, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Dr. Toole,


Is timbral accuracy solely the domain of frequency accuracy? Or do other factors, such as you mentioned - power handling, distortion, power compression...and whatever others - also play a role. In other words I'm wondering if, given two speakers that measure essentially the same in accurate frequency response, whether other factors in design or material choices, can aid one speaker in sounding even more timbrally precise and accurate? And could these advantages, if there are any, come in to play even when we aren't talking about the ability of one to simply play louder without distortion? E.g. at moderate listening levels?
As elaborated on in many papers and my book, the measurable evidence that correlates with perceived sound quality is dominated by frequency response - IF sufficient anechoic data are accumulated, processed and presented - the spinorama is a good example. This is addressed early in my book, Chapter 5, Section 5.7 where it is shown that these data alone can provide very high correlations with double-blind subjective evaluations of sound quality. It is important to remember that transducers are minimum-phase devices - i.e. the time domain behavior is predictable from the amplitude response.

Those other factors are important only if the loudspeakers are appropriately stressed.
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