How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 76 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2251 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
This entire piece by Kevin must have been written several years ago. It has several misstatements. I am certain that if he were writing it today it would be different. Here are a few revisions and additions.
Yes, it's over 15 years old and I noticed a couple of contradictions. Thanks for updating it. I didn't want to plagiarize from your book, Kevin's words came closest.

One statement I found interesting was:

Quote:
The listening tests conducted in the MLL enabled Floyd and the group to determine how to use these 72 measurements and weight them to generate a single curve. This generates the Calculated Perceived Response, which we call our "target."
I suppose this has been superseded as well? I don't believe I've seen references in your book to a 'calculated perceived response curve' or even a weighting of the 72 anechoic curves into one 'target'.
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post #2252 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Yes, it's over 15 years old and I noticed a couple of contradictions. Thanks for updating it. I didn't want to plagiarize from your book, Kevin's words came closest.

One statement I found interesting was:



I suppose this has been superseded as well? I don't believe I've seen references in your book to a 'calculated perceived response curve' or even a weighting of the 72 anechoic curves into one 'target'.
I don't know what a "calculated perceived response curve" is . . . 15 years is a long time . . . but there is no single curve that describes the audible performance of a loudspeaker. It was true then, and it is still true.

But try to tell that to the purveyors of "room EQ" schemes. Everybody wants a quick and easy solution.

BTW, feel free to quote from the book - just credit the source.
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post #2253 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Zydeco67 View Post
I believe that these are off axis in the horizontal plane. It doesn’t seem as if the other measurements in this thread show off axis in the vertical. I’d assumed that this was because most would listen at the correct height?
It's still an issue if listening at the correct height, just as horizontal dispersion is relevant even if you're listening on axis. The reflected sounds off the floor and ceiling may sound different from the on axis sounds.
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post #2254 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
How many years have you been in the speaker design & theory field as a professional?
You must think Bose is also a great speaker. Amar Bose spent many many years perfecting them.
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post #2255 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post
It's still an issue if listening at the correct height, just as horizontal dispersion is relevant even if you're listening on axis. The reflected sounds off the floor and ceiling may sound different from the on axis sounds.


Makes sense. What’s the specific question to ask the manufacturer? Is it for the “listening window” measurements?


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post #2256 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
You must think Bose is also a great speaker. Amar Bose spent many many years perfecting them.
What ridiculous conclusion. C'mon man.

Not that it matters, I've never owned a Bose product but I don't feel the need to trash or look down my nose at them.
They seem to meet the needs of a significant number of consumers.
Companies are in business to make a profit.
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post #2257 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Zydeco67 View Post
Makes sense. What’s the specific question to ask the manufacturer? Is it for the “listening window” measurements?
I'd ask to see the vertical dispersion measurements, because that's where interference effects from vertically separated 8" midranges that go to 1500hz, where wavelength is only 9", would show up.
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post #2258 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
What ridiculous conclusion. C'mon man.



Not that it matters, I've never owned a Bose product but I don't feel the need to trash or look down my nose at them.

They seem to meet the needs of a significant number of consumers.

Companies are in business to make a profit.
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post #2259 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 06:00 PM
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What’s the specific question to ask the manufacturer?
Where are the full ANSI/CEA 2034-A measurements?

We kinda get spoiled after reading this thread. Off-axis +/- 30 degrees horizontal and +/- 10 degrees vertical don't look so good anymore.
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How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
Where are the full ANSI/CEA 2034-A measurements?

We kinda get spoiled after reading this thread. Off-axis +/- 30 degrees horizontal and +/- 10 degrees vertical don't look so good anymore.


Post # 224. See "Third".








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How does a “mechanical” crossover in a speaker work?

In reference to Thiel CS2.4 mid/tweeter
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post #2262 of 5322 Old 03-09-2019, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
How many years have you been in the speaker design & theory field as a professional?
You should ask Elan Musk this question. If people were to follow your ways of qualification for expressing opinions and engaging in real work, nothing would get done.
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post #2263 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
How does a “mechanical” crossover in a speaker work?

In reference to Thiel CS2.4 mid/tweeter
From Stereophile:

Quote:
That mechanical crossover is the compound driver Thiel devised for the CS2.3: a 1" tweeter mounted coaxially inside a 3.5" midrange cone, both driven by a single voice-coil. Both drivers have anodized aluminum diaphragms, separated from one another by a compliant polypropylene surround. Because the two share a single magnetic system, there's no electrical crossover between them. At low frequencies, the voice-coil drives both diaphragms just as it would with any midrange driver, but at frequencies above 2.5kHz, that polypropylene "coupling suspension" has enough compliance to allow the midrange cone to decouple, and the voice-coil drives the tweeter diaphragm, to which it is directly connected.
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post #2264 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post
You should ask Elan Musk this question. If people were to follow your ways of qualification for expressing opinions and engaging in real work, nothing would get done.
Loudspeakers have gotten substantially better over the past couple of decades, and people like Dr. Toole have greatly contributed to it. Not by the designs in itself, but for correlating subjective (blind) impressions to technical measurements and raising the bar for everyone. Many brands use the results of his research, some openly and some not-so-openly. The Harman brands obviously, but also others such as PSB, KEF, Buchardt, Genelec, Kali, TAD, RCF, Dutch&Dutch, Grimm, Kii .. and many others, with more following every year. This is no coincidence. And this is great for us as consumers, a decent pair of loudspeakers can be purchased for as little as $200 - if the data is available.

It won't be long before the ANSI 2034 standard is recognized not only by professionals (as is evident from the list of manufacturers that happen to correlate with the guidelines as presented by it) but hopefully also by consumers. It's 2019 and with the technology available to us today, there is no excuse for mediocre sound.
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post #2265 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Loudspeakers have gotten substantially better over the past couple of decades, and people like Dr. Toole have greatly contributed to it. Not by the designs in itself, but for correlating subjective (blind) impressions to technical measurements and raising the bar for everyone. Many brands use the results of his research, some openly and some not-so-openly. The Harman brands obviously, but also others such as PSB, KEF, Buchardt, Genelec, Kali, TAD, RCF, Dutch&Dutch, Grimm, Kii .. and many others, with more following every year. This is no coincidence. And this is great for us as consumers, a decent pair of loudspeakers can be purchased for as little as $200 - if the data is available.

It won't be long before the ANSI 2034 standard is recognized not only by professionals (as is evident from the list of manufacturers that happen to correlate with the guidelines as presented by it) but hopefully also by consumers. It's 2019 and with the technology available to us today, there is no excuse for mediocre sound.
There is a difference between acknowledging the great work done by Dr. Toole and using #of years or educational qualifications to be even able to question and/or contribute to the loudspeakers development effort.

I just want to make sure we do not embark upon creating a new religion, a cult in the name of one. That has happened all too often in the history of mankind.
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post
There is a difference between acknowledging the great work done by Dr. Toole and using #of years or educational qualifications to be even able to question and/or contribute to the loudspeakers development effort.

I just want to make sure we do not embark upon creating a new religion, a cult in the name of one. That has happened all too often in the history of mankind.
Having the educational credentials, then doing solid work, does not make admiration of his work foolish. One of the first things I look at as a layman on work I don’t understand is educational credentials. The second thing is what do his peers say. I don’t look at it and say well look at all these mavericks with less credentials who have made startling breakthroughs over the years. Cold fusion anyone? I don’t think there is a danger of a general “Floyd Toole cult.”
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post
Having the educational credentials, then doing solid work, does not make admiration of his work foolish. One of the first things I look at as a layman on work I don’t understand is educational credentials. The second thing is what do his peers say. I don’t look at it and say well look at all these mavericks with less credentials who have made startling breakthroughs over the years. Cold fusion anyone? I don’t think there is a danger of a general “Floyd Toole cult.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99:
How many years have you been in the speaker design & theory field as a professional?
Really?
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What cult? I want my MSGA hat!!

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Personally I am planning to retire to the Isle of Toole where all will be Revel'd to me.

Back to the science...

On another thread I commented that one of the things I look for in a speaker is a smooth transition among drivers, particularly through the vocal range. A number of speakers exhibit little ripples or discontinuities as the frequency varies, putting little audible "hiccups" in the sound of an instrument or voice moving up and down the scale. As a musician and engineer I tend to find such discontinuities distracting and annoying (they drive me a little crazy; it's a short drive). I tend to listen in the near field for these sort of things to take the room out of the equation as much as possible, but you can hear them on solo instruments or voices quite clearly even without an anechoic chamber (and yes I have been in a number of those as well). That is one thing that drove me for decades to panels that have fewer such ripples through the voice band.

Phase jumps, poor time alignment, frequency response ripples, etc. have been put forth as causes. I am curious what learned researchers like @Floyd Toole , Kevin @avkv , and others have to say about the cause and effect?
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post #2270 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 08:43 AM
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Uncorrected measurements of my left and right mains

Back in post 990 I talked about my use of DRC-FIR and REW to EQ my speakers in my treated home theater. I have put together a set of measurements to illustrate what I have done. This post will show different views of the uncorrected responses of my left and right speakers.

The first image is of the uncorrected steady state frequency responses at the MLP (top) and vector averaged across ten mic positions.

The second image is the uncorrected impulse responses at the MLP

The third image is the uncorrected impulse responses of the vector averaged measurements

The fourth image is the uncorrected step responses at the MLP

The fifth image is the uncorrected step responses of the vector averaged measurements

The sixth image is the uncorrected spectrogram of the left speaker at the MLP

The seventh image is the uncorrected spectrogram of the vector average left speaker

I set the lower limit of the spectrograms at 400 Hz to concentrate on the transition from room/speaker correction to speaker only correction.

Notice that the MLP responses and the averaged responses are very similar. Also notice in the vector averaged impulse, step and spectrogram views that a significant portion of the room interaction has been averaged out.

The next post will have the frequency dependent windowed view of the uncorrected measurements
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post #2271 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Personally I am planning to retire to the Isle of Toole where all will be Revel'd to me.

Back to the science...

On another thread I commented that one of the things I look for in a speaker is a smooth transition among drivers, particularly through the vocal range.
I'm with you but my biggest issue with speakers seems to be where they choose to cross them over. 3 ways sound good to my ears but there is something about a 2-way that sounds more natural to me and I think it's because you have the critical vocal range all coming from 1 woofer and the higher frequencies, which are mostly harmonics, come from the tweeter.

The most recent anecdote I have where I've experienced this is with the new KEF R series, which crosses from the midrange to woofer at 400Hz. I'm used to a 2-way coaxial, which is point-source and listening to the R3 and R7, I could tell the vocals were playing from the woofers along with the midrange unit and it didn't sound as coherent to my ears. For this reason, I've been happy with using 2 way bookshelf speakers with slightly higher than normal crossover points ot minimize distortion in the mains.(80-100Hz 4th order or 100-120Hz 2nd order)
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post #2272 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 12:34 PM
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FDW Uncorrected MEasurements

Continuing on:

The first image is the uncorrected frequency response of the left and right speaker with a frequency dependent window of 6 cycles for both the minimum phase and excess phase vector averaged responses.

The second image is the FDW spectrogram of the left speaker and the third is the right.

Notice how much the room has been removed from the measurements. These are the responses on which DRC-FIR will make the corrections.

The next post will have the predicted responses based on application of the FIR Filters generated by DRC-FIR.
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Predicted Responses after applying FIR filters

The first image is of the predicted steady state responses at the MLP (top) and vector averaged (bottom) after the generated FIR filters have been convolved with the measurements. The middle plot is the target curve which includes the 80Hz LR4 crossover to the subs.

The second image is the same only with a 20ms gate.

The third image is with the FDW applied.

The fourth image is the predicted corrected impulse response at the MLP.

The fifth image is the predicted corrected impulse response of the vector averaged measurements.

The sixth image is the predicted corrected step response at the MLP.

The seventh image is the predicted corrected step response of the vector averaged measurements.
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post #2274 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 01:15 PM
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I'm with you but my biggest issue with speakers seems to be where they choose to cross them over. 3 ways sound good to my ears but there is something about a 2-way that sounds more natural to me and I think it's because you have the critical vocal range all coming from 1 woofer and the higher frequencies, which are mostly harmonics, come from the tweeter.

I've seen a number of people express that sentiment regarding 2-ways over the years. There's a certain intuitive appeal to the idea - fewer drivers producing less opportunity for discontinuity. Yet I've never actually found that, in practice, 2-ways are less susceptible to driver integration problems. I've heard discontinuous sound between the woofer and tweeter in 2 ways at least as often as with 3 or 4 ways. The most coherent dynamic speakers I have ever heard have been 3 or 4 ways (e.g. some Thiel speakers, Revel, and some others). I don't think my experience trumps yours, I'm just adding my opinion.
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post #2275 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I've seen a number of people express that sentiment regarding 2-ways over the years. There's a certain intuitive appeal to the idea - fewer drivers producing less opportunity for discontinuity. Yet I've never actually found that, in practice, 2-ways are less susceptible to driver integration problems. I've heard discontinuous sound between the woofer and tweeter in 2 ways at least as often as with 3 or 4 ways. The most coherent dynamic speakers I have ever heard have been 3 or 4 ways (e.g. some Thiel speakers, Revel, and some others). I don't think my experience trumps yours, I'm just adding my opinion.
I don't disagree, I certainly didn't experience that with the Salon 2, they are very coherent from top to bottom. My KEF example is a good one though because it uses the coaxial midrange/tweeter array and seems to be very well integrated with the woofers, I just don't think it's as natural of a sound as a true point-source. This makes sense intuitively to me since real voices come from 1 source and not a line, instruments don't seem to matter as much though. I know with coaxials especially, it's all about compromises, the 2 ways are very good but can't do high output levels without distortion getting out of hand.
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post #2276 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I've seen a number of people express that sentiment regarding 2-ways over the years. There's a certain intuitive appeal to the idea - fewer drivers producing less opportunity for discontinuity. Yet I've never actually found that, in practice, 2-ways are less susceptible to driver integration problems. I've heard discontinuous sound between the woofer and tweeter in 2 ways at least as often as with 3 or 4 ways. The most coherent dynamic speakers I have ever heard have been 3 or 4 ways (e.g. some Thiel speakers, Revel, and some others). I don't think my experience trumps yours, I'm just adding my opinion.

What’s wrong with a 2-way with good off axis performances coupled with 2 or more subs for <80Hz? No measurement data but https://www.krix.com.au/esoterix-altum/ references Floyd’s design goals and might work in this type of application?


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post #2277 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydeco67 View Post
What’s wrong with a 2-way with good off axis performances coupled with 2 or more subs for <80Hz? No measurement data but https://www.krix.com.au/esoterix-altum/ references Floyd’s design goals and might work in this type of application?


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I don't know but the Revel M105 is proof that a 2 way is all that is necessary for smooth response from about 50-20000Hz, the only thing they lack is bass output below 100Hz, which can be remedied with a multi sub setup and most likely a crossover around 100 instead of the typical 80Hz.
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post #2278 of 5322 Old 03-10-2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Zydeco67 View Post
No measurement data but https://www.krix.com.au/esoterix-altum/ references Floyd’s design goals and might work in this type of application?
Basic measurements of it are here: Krix Esoterix Altum - Review & Test.
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post #2279 of 5322 Old 03-11-2019, 04:02 AM
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Meaured response wih FIR Correction Applied

The first image is the measured FR at the MLP with correction applied.
The second image is the same with the 6 Cycle FDW.
The third and fourth images repeat the first and second with the subs (3) active
The fifth is the measured impulse responses.
The sixth is the measured step responses.
The seventh is the measured step responses with subs active.
The eighth is the waterfall of the right speaker plus subs. The waterfall was produced with a 40ms window taken from Dr. Toole's book.

Perhaps Doctor Toole would like to chime in on my approach and provide any criticism he may have.

Cheers,
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post #2280 of 5322 Old 03-11-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post
The waterfall was produced with a 40ms window taken from Dr. Toole's book.

Perhaps Doctor Toole would like to chime in on my approach and provide any criticism he may have.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut

.
What exactly are you trying to do and wanting validation for? Your opinion is the one that counts, if you think it sounds a lot better with EQ then stick with it. Dr. Toole's thoughts on room EQ are well documented on the forums and in his book.
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