How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
In the diagram, the listening position appears different than in the picture. In the diagram, the listening position is forward of the side surrounds and rearward of the wides. In the picture, the listening position appear to be rearward of both the side surrounds and the wides. Is that just an artifact caused by the panoramic view of the camera? Or, was the seating placed there for photographic purposes and moved forward when actually using the system? You seem to allude to this above and in the next paragraph, but just wanted to verify
He moves the seats for watching movies / listening to music.
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post #2762 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
<elided all the pictures, tired of wading through them at every post>

While I'm sure the results are quite impressive, IMO, this system just SCREAMS for a dedicated room.

Craig
You should direct your comments/criticisms to Dr. Toole -- it is his system; John just copied and pasted it into this thread.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2763 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
You should direct your comments/criticisms to Dr. Toole -- it is his system; John just copied and pasted it into this thread.
I put an @Floyd Toole at the top of the post.
Edit: Ooops, looks like I did it wrong. It's now fixed. Thanks.

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post #2764 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
I hate to see speakers right up against the wall like that (as well as elevated above ear level) and no wall on one side. I don’t care how much frequency response correcting is done, or how much sound deadening material is used on the other side (sound absorption actually ruins my experience of the sound usually, TBH). I guess for movies you’re distracted enough by the visuals that it might not make a huge difference, but from a purely musical perspective it is not what I would consider ideal based on my own experiences with absorption, reflectivity, and speaker placement.

Just noticed the slanting ceiling as well...
Speakers up against the wall can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage if done right. Having said that, your concerns are mostly for problems that are well supported, even by Toole's own book. Sound deadening almost always absorbs the highs and some of the mids, but does little to the lower frequencies. Additionally, those lateral reflections are usually perceived to add spaciousness, so unless the side walls are very close the the speaker, absorbing them could "ruin" the sound for some people. From that perspective, an open wall may in fact be worse than a side wall 5 to 10 feet from the speaker.

The floor and ceiling reflections are known to change the perceived spectral balance of speakers, and ceilings at different heights probably impact that perception differently. Is that what you were getting at with the last, unfinished thought?

Here's an example of a speaker that takes advantage of on-wall placement:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...er-design.html

It also has limited vertical dispersion in order to reduce the spectral balance changes associated with floor and ceiling reflections. Here's a quote from Dennis Murphy, who wrote a review in the thread I linked:

"Unlike my experience with so many controlled directivity speakers with wave guides or horns, I never sensed a constriction of the sound stage or any coloration... I also sensed a more immediate presentation of the recording venue, be it a studio or concert hall."

I am convinced that commercial speaker designers should seriously consider on-wall speakers properly designed to integrate with the wall. With the prevalence of projection screens and flat panel TVs, I think customers will appreciate the form factor as much or more than the acoustic advantages. The combination of wide horizontal dispersion and narrow vertical dispersion may be somewhat more controversial. I know Toole wrote that eliminating the floor reflection could be perceived as weird, though I'd like to know more about how that test was performed. I haven't noticed any negative impact from the reduction of the floor reflection by my own speaker, but that's a reduction rather than an elimination. Still, my perceptions of my own speaker are the least important. I'd much rather speak to the science, and allow others to hear them and offer their opinions.
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post #2765 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 06:00 PM
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I request your advice on this situation.

I currently use my left and right speakers to create a phantom center for me when I watch movies 4.1

I think using a dedicated center channel may allow me to adjust dialog volumes independently.

But I don't have any space for it, except behind the second sofa that is along the wall with the projector screen.

So the option is to place a center channel behind the sofa near the top facing up or continue using the phantom speaker.

What would you suggest? If behind the sofa, what center channel speaker would you suggest?
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post #2766 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 07:32 PM
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Behind the listening position would put the dialog coming from the opposite direction of the screen. If that is what you are saying, I would say to keep the phantom center scheme.

IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2767 of 5319 Old 05-01-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Behind the listening position would put the dialog coming from the opposite direction of the screen. If that is what you are saying, I would say to keep the phantom center scheme.



IMO - Don
Not behind the listening position but under the movie screen behind another sofa that is on that side.

Hope I am not confusing it further.
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post #2768 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Not behind the listening position but under the movie screen behind another sofa that is on that side.

Hope I am not confusing it further.

SouthernCA,

I believe what you want is mid-side EQ. You will need something like Jriver MC to accomplish it. Check out this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...om-center.html. Wesayso has done quite a bit with this.

If you want to see a fantastic DIY project, check this out: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ine-array.html The measurements of his speakers are phenomenal. The guy is a fanatic.

By the way, check your e-mail. I sent you a message.

Cheers,

OldMovieNut
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post #2769 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Not behind the listening position but under the movie screen behind another sofa that is on that side.

Hope I am not confusing it further.
I'm stupid, guess you'd have to draw me a picture. I'll let others more competent help. Been working ten 12-hour days in a row, losing it...

If "behind" means the sofa blocks the speaker, then highs would be severely attenuated, midbass somewhat, and deep bas may not be significantly affected. Bottom line is you'd need to get the tweeter and midrange driver (if present) above the couch to get any sort of decent center sound.

IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Last edited by DonH50; 05-02-2019 at 11:38 AM.
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post #2770 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post
SouthernCA,



I believe what you want is mid-side EQ. You will need something like Jriver MC to accomplish it. Check out this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...om-center.html. Wesayso has done quite a bit with this.



If you want to see a fantastic DIY project, check this out: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ine-array.html The measurements of his speakers are phenomenal. The guy is a fanatic.



By the way, check your e-mail. I sent you a message.



Cheers,



OldMovieNut
Wow. That was amazing. Thanks.
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post #2771 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post
SouthernCA,

I believe what you want is mid-side EQ. You will need something like Jriver MC to accomplish it. Check out this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...om-center.html. Wesayso has done quite a bit with this.

If you want to see a fantastic DIY project, check this out: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ine-array.html The measurements of his speakers are phenomenal. The guy is a fanatic.

By the way, check your e-mail. I sent you a message.

Cheers,

OldMovieNut
That is one of the more amazing projects I've ever seen.
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post #2772 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
In the diagram, the listening position appears different than in the picture.
In the picture, there isn't a seat in the main listening position, which is under the VOG speaker (like in the diagram). The furniture in the room moves. Pick the love seat or whichever chair looks most comfortable and slide it under the VOG speaker. If you want to elevate your legs, slide one of the ottomans under your feet. If you have a drink or remote in your hands, slide one of the end tables next to you. When guests are over, all the seating can be rotated to the same direction to watch a movie or rotated to face each other for conversation.
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While I'm sure the results are quite impressive, IMO, this system just SCREAMS for a dedicated room.
No doubt this system would perform better in a dedicated room, with a flat ceiling & symmetrical side walls, where speakers can be baffle mounted, treatments can be used to sculpt the sound and EQ can be targeted to fixed seating locations. But those things aren't worth it IF the goal is a casual/recreational listening space, where gathering & conversing are as important as movie & music listening. Priorities.

Sanjay
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post #2773 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Not behind the listening position but under the movie screen behind another sofa that is on that side.

Hope I am not confusing it further.
If I'm interpreting you correctly, you have a sofa sitting directly under your movie screen (which obviously means than no one sits in that sofa to watch movies ). You seem to be asking if it's OK to mount a center speaker behind that sofa and centered under the screen. The obvious question is how much space there is between the top of the sofa and the bottom of the screen to place a center speaker that fires over the top of the sofa to those seated on the other side of the room. If that's not correct then you need to provide a finer level of detail in order to get meaningful advice.
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post #2774 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Not behind the listening position but under the movie screen behind another sofa that is on that side.

Hope I am not confusing it further.
This might be a case of a picture being worth a thousand words.
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post #2775 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
In the picture, there isn't a seat in the main listening position, which is under the VOG speaker (like in the diagram). The furniture in the room moves. Pick the love seat or whichever chair looks most comfortable and slide it under the VOG speaker. If you want to elevate your legs, slide one of the ottomans under your feet. If you have a drink or remote in your hands, slide one of the end tables next to you. When guests are over, all the seating can be rotated to the same direction to watch a movie or rotated to face each other for conversation. No doubt this system would perform better in a dedicated room, with a flat ceiling & symmetrical side walls, where speakers can be baffle mounted, treatments can be used to sculpt the sound and EQ can be targeted to fixed seating locations. But those things aren't worth it IF the goal is a casual/recreational listening space, where gathering & conversing are as important as movie & music listening. Priorities.
I'd imagine that being happy, comfortable, and relaxed when you're in a room, could also increase the enjoyment and make it sound 'better'. I'm never going to do a purpose-built room for this reason. I need natural light for music, sports and casual TV watching. Multiple layers of blackout shades are good enough for serious movie watching.
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post #2776 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
If I'm interpreting you correctly, you have a sofa sitting directly under your movie screen (which obviously means than no one sits in that sofa to watch movies ). You seem to be asking if it's OK to mount a center speaker behind that sofa and centered under the screen. The obvious question is how much space there is between the top of the sofa and the bottom of the screen to place a center speaker that fires over the top of the sofa to those seated on the other side of the room. If that's not correct then you need to provide a finer level of detail in order to get meaningful advice.
Yes. You are correct.

But there is no space between the top of the sofa and bottom of the screen. So the center channel speaker will be behind the sofa (hidden) facing up and pointing to the ceiling.

While it will not face the MLP, I was hoping that it will be better than not have any center channel speaker at all and relying on phantom center channel.
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post #2777 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Yes. You are correct.

But there is no space between the top of the sofa and bottom of the screen. So the center channel speaker will be behind the sofa (hidden) facing up and pointing to the ceiling.

While it will not face the MLP, I was hoping that it will be better than not have any center channel speaker at all and relying on phantom center channel.
IMO that would diffuse the center and redirect the source so it may be as bad or worse than using a phantom center. I had edited my post to say you really need the tweeter (and midrange if present) at least above the couch. What I did not say is they should also point at the listener (not the ceiling).

If you have or can borrow some sort of speaker to try you could see if it helps. My guess is it would provide a little more "centered" sound but also would be very hard to synch and match volume with the L/R speakers since you'd be hearing a lot of reflected sound, the the center sound may be sort of diffused instead of providing a nice central source as desired.

Can you mount it behind or above the screen? I suppose another option would be to stand-mount it in front of the couch and move it out of the way when you need the couch. A hassle...

FWIWFM - Don

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post #2778 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 12:34 PM
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That is one of the more amazing projects I've ever seen.
Yeah it is! Those speakers show in my Pinterest notifications weekly.

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post #2779 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 12:57 PM
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Yes. You are correct.

But there is no space between the top of the sofa and bottom of the screen. So the center channel speaker will be behind the sofa (hidden) facing up and pointing to the ceiling.

While it will not face the MLP, I was hoping that it will be better than not have any center channel speaker at all and relying on phantom center channel.
I'd have to agree with @DonH50 that pointing a center speaker at the ceiling would lose some of the value a true center has over a phantom center for clear dialog, though it would maintain the advantage of being individually adjustable for higher volume than the L/R. I also agree that it's good advice to simply take any old speaker you happen to have laying around and give it a try for at least a rough idea of what to expect. I also agree that mounting the center speaker above the screen angled down at listeners would be superior. I tried mounting my center both below and above the screen and it was clearly superior when mounted higher in my particular setup. For more advice on this individual issue you might want to consider starting a new thread rather than making this an extended discussion in the middle of this thread.
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post #2780 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Yes. You are correct.

But there is no space between the top of the sofa and bottom of the screen. So the center channel speaker will be behind the sofa (hidden) facing up and pointing to the ceiling.

While it will not face the MLP, I was hoping that it will be better than not have any center channel speaker at all and relying on phantom center channel.
Why do you have a sofa right beneath your screen? The obvious solution is to move the sofa.
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Why do you have a sofa right beneath your screen? The obvious solution is to move the sofa.
Seems common sensical enough... lol
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
IMO that would diffuse the center and redirect the source so it may be as bad or worse than using a phantom center. I had edited my post to say you really need the tweeter (and midrange if present) at least above the couch. What I did not say is they should also point at the listener (not the ceiling).



If you have or can borrow some sort of speaker to try you could see if it helps. My guess is it would provide a little more "centered" sound but also would be very hard to synch and match volume with the L/R speakers since you'd be hearing a lot of reflected sound, the the center sound may be sort of diffused instead of providing a nice central source as desired.



Can you mount it behind or above the screen? I suppose another option would be to stand-mount it in front of the couch and move it out of the way when you need the couch. A hassle...



FWIWFM - Don
Thanks for a detailed reply and all great suggestions. If I find a center channel speaker on Craig's list, I will buy and try. Probably not worth spending a lot of money for questionable sound improvement.
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Why do you have a sofa right beneath your screen? The obvious solution is to move the sofa.
If I could convince the boss.... It is in HER living room and sofa provides additional seating when we are not watching movies. The screen retracts in the ceiling.

And yes. Sorry for derailing this wonderful thread. No more. Thanks everyone.
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post #2784 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 03:27 PM
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If I could convince the boss.... It is in HER living room and sofa provides additional seating when we are not watching movies. The screen retracts in the ceiling.
Yet another reason for a dedicated room!

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post #2785 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 03:31 PM
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Yet another reason for a dedicated room!
I had a dedicated room. No one ever wanted to go there. Everyone wants to hang around the family room (I mis-wrote in the last post, it is the family room) for discussions, movie watching, and everything else.
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I had a dedicated room. No one ever wanted to go there. Everyone wants to hang around the family room (I mis-wrote in the last post, it is the family room) for discussions, movie watching, and everything else.
So what's the problem? Room for one...

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post #2787 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 04:10 PM
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I had a dedicated room. No one ever wanted to go there. Everyone wants to hang around the family room (I mis-wrote in the last post, it is the family room) for discussions, movie watching, and everything else.

designing top class sound in a space for all should be a top priority and emphasized in reviews/magazines. I dont think I remember a review about a top system in open layout home....sad either on my memory or industry.
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post #2788 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 04:39 PM
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IMO that would diffuse the center and redirect the source so it may be as bad or worse than using a phantom center.
I ran with a phantom center with my M2's for a long time and it was excellent. In fact, in some ways better than the 708 I have there now. Far off center there was certainly pull to that side, but the mind is a powerful thing and I often didn't even notice. A speaker behind a couch firing up at the ceiling could not compete, IMO.

My point being is that I don't consider a phantom center bad, just slightly compromised due to the physics involved.
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post #2789 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
I had a dedicated room. No one ever wanted to go there. Everyone wants to hang around the family room (I mis-wrote in the last post, it is the family room) for discussions, movie watching, and everything else.

That's one reason why I didn't do a standard dedicated room for my home theater. Instead I converted our front living room into a semi-dedicated room - that is home theater and 2 channel music listening. As it's on the main floor and immediately accessible it gets tons of use by everyone. But by just closing some thick curtains it can also feel like a dedicated theater or listening room. For me it's been the best of both worlds.


(Except that my home theater sharing room with my 2 channel speakers did present some ergonomic and placement restrictions for my speakers, but that seems to have worked out ok).


Back to Floyd's set up, I have no question that it sounds dynamite!
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post #2790 of 5319 Old 05-02-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
If I could convince the boss.... It is in HER living room and sofa provides additional seating when we are not watching movies. The screen retracts in the ceiling.

And yes. Sorry for derailing this wonderful thread. No more. Thanks everyone.
Why not put a narrow table behind the couch..a common way to furnish a living room. Place the center channel on the little table right behind the couch, aimed properly at the MLP. Or is the screen behind said couch and you are facing the front of the couch? This could still work if there is 8-10" between couch and bottom of screen.

Maybe include a pic to help everyone understand your layout. Sometimes solutions only take a fresh perspective.

If my assumption is correct and the couch is up against a wall and pulling it out far enough to place the center behind and slightly above is not an option aesthetically, then how about in wall?
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Last edited by bear123; 05-02-2019 at 06:30 PM.
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