How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 94 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2791 of 5313 Old 05-02-2019, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I ran with a phantom center with my M2's for a long time and it was excellent. In fact, in some ways better than the 708 I have there now. Far off center there was certainly pull to that side, but the mind is a powerful thing and I often didn't even notice. A speaker behind a couch firing up at the ceiling could not compete, IMO.

My point being is that I don't consider a phantom center bad, just slightly compromised due to the physics involved.
Didn't mean to imply a phantom center is bad, poor wording on my part. I've gone both ways, and prefer a center, but a number of folk seem to prefer phantom. A phantom center from a couple of nice L/R speakers may be better than the discontinuity of a little center speaker that does not match the mains well. I do find the sweet spot narrower, or image compromised if you orient the mains for a broader sweet spot. A lot of variables in that, natch.
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post #2792 of 5313 Old 05-02-2019, 10:03 PM
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If I could convince the boss.... It is in HER living room and sofa provides additional seating when we are not watching movies. The screen retracts in the ceiling.

And yes. Sorry for derailing this wonderful thread. No more. Thanks everyone.
Would it be possible to move the couch when watching movies? Keep the speaker behind it, and move the couch when necessary.

Or even putting the speaker on the couch, or on a table in front of the couch, and removing it as necessary.
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post #2793 of 5313 Old 05-03-2019, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Yes. You are correct.

But there is no space between the top of the sofa and bottom of the screen. So the center channel speaker will be behind the sofa (hidden) facing up and pointing to the ceiling.

While it will not face the MLP, I was hoping that it will be better than not have any center channel speaker at all and relying on phantom center channel.
I'm sorry but it will not work without extensive DSP and even then it probably will not work anyway due to complexity.
A frequency response and gain of your ear largely differs from various angles of incidence. There also other effects like "shadowing", etc.
An "Immersive Sound: The Art and Science of Binaural and Multi-Channel Audio" book might help you to understand more if you want to.

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post #2794 of 5313 Old 05-03-2019, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Why not put a narrow table behind the couch..a common way to furnish a living room. Place the center channel on the little table right behind the couch, aimed properly at the MLP. Or is the screen behind said couch and you are facing the front of the couch? This could still work if there is 8-10" between couch and bottom of screen.



Maybe include a pic to help everyone understand your layout. Sometimes solutions only take a fresh perspective.



If my assumption is correct and the couch is up against a wall and pulling it out far enough to place the center behind and slightly above is not an option aesthetically, then how about in wall?
Thanks to everyone for great suggestions. I am now leaning towards the in-wall idea. . Again, sorry for derailing this thread.
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post #2795 of 5313 Old 05-03-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That's one reason why I didn't do a standard dedicated room for my home theater. Instead I converted our front living room into a semi-dedicated room - that is home theater and 2 channel music listening. As it's on the main floor and immediately accessible it gets tons of use by everyone. But by just closing some thick curtains it can also feel like a dedicated theater or listening room. For me it's been the best of both worlds.


(Except that my home theater sharing room with my 2 channel speakers did present some ergonomic and placement restrictions for my speakers, but that seems to have worked out ok).


Back to Floyd's set up, I have no question that it sounds dynamite!
Yeah, after having a dedicated home theater previously, I would never opt for that again over an optimized two-channel space. Ninety-nine percent or more of the music I listen to is two channel and it never sounded great in a dedicated home theater, and I didn't like the DSPing that would turn 2-channel into surround music. Unless I have two spaces to create both a dedicated theater and two-channel setup, I will always opt for optimizing the two-channel over surround. In my experience with both, the surround in a less than optimal setup is much easier to live with than a sub-optimal two-channel setup, particularly when most surround music material is utilizing the front channels with only surround for ambiance. Once a movie starts I'm too immersed in the visuals and content of the movie to analyze discrepancies in the surround field, while with 2-channel the suspension of disbelief is much easier to break.
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post #2796 of 5313 Old 05-03-2019, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Again, sorry for derailing this thread.
This thread has 90+ pages of derailment. No need to apologize.
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post #2797 of 5313 Old 05-03-2019, 07:16 AM
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Thanks to everyone for great suggestions. I am now leaning towards the in-wall idea. . Again, sorry for derailing this thread.
Sorry, I only caught the tail end of your dilemma and don't feel like sifting through pages of stuff. As an A/V integrator/designer, I run into stuff like this weekly. Going off just the cliff notes I am picturing a dual use space, motorized screen dropping down, couch in the way, wife... also in the way , etc etc. If so...

- Acoustically Transparent Motorized screen
- In-wall Center
- Find an image or artwork she likes or that goes with the room.... Auralex Sonic Print Acoustic panel over it to hide speaker https://www.auralex.com/product/sonicprint/
- Simply use butter knife to cut out hole in back of panel so that when hung, the speaker plays through it. They use dye sub process so the fabric is acoustically transparent.

Enjoy your new artwork AND your movie theater.

Oh, and to stay on topic... #spinorama
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post #2798 of 5313 Old 05-04-2019, 01:25 PM
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So, finally settling into my new place in NY. I would love a list of speakers people feel fit the criteria in this thread for some spare time hobby listening at audio stores. Revel excluded, as I’ve owned or heard their pinnacle offerings before. Thanks in advance.
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post #2799 of 5313 Old 05-04-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
So, finally settling into my new place in NY. I would love a list of speakers people feel fit the criteria in this thread for some spare time hobby listening at audio stores. Revel excluded, as I’ve owned or heard their pinnacle offerings before. Thanks in advance.
One of my favorite cones and domes in a box at AXPONA were the Dynaudio Evoke 50s. Cheap too at $5,000 a pair.


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post #2800 of 5313 Old 05-04-2019, 01:53 PM
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Large genelecs.
And their coaxials
KEF had some measurements on their site for their new R-series and it looks very good
ME Geithain (very hard to find I guess)
Neumann KH420
Kii three
dutch & dutch 8c

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post #2801 of 5313 Old 05-04-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
So, finally settling into my new place in NY. I would love a list of speakers people feel fit the criteria in this thread for some spare time hobby listening at audio stores. Revel excluded, as I’ve owned or heard their pinnacle offerings before. Thanks in advance.
You might want to give an ear to the Revel F228Be if you have not. The folks at the Harman shop are quite accommodating.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #2802 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 02:44 AM
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Is this thread dead now?

With so many knowledgeable people here, I think it will be ok to discuss off topic questions as long as they take advantage of the knowledge available in this group.

So, go ahead. Ask the question that has been bugging you for some time that the group here can help you resolve or at least better understand.
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post #2803 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 04:08 AM
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Is this thread dead now?

With so many knowledgeable people here, I think it will be ok to discuss off topic questions as long as they take advantage of the knowledge available in this group.

So, go ahead. Ask the question that has been bugging you for some time that the group here can help you resolve or at least better understand.
I did, but apparently there are only three perfect measuring speakers besides the Salon2s. I appreciate the suggestions people offered and will put aside some time to hear them while in Manhattan for work. If there are any others worth giving a listen, please feel free to offer more suggestions.
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post #2804 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 06:47 AM
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I did, but apparently there are only three perfect measuring speakers besides the Salon2s. I appreciate the suggestions people offered and will put aside some time to hear them while in Manhattan for work. If there are any others worth giving a listen, please feel free to offer more suggestions.
What are these other 3 perfect measuring speakers?
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post #2805 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 09:18 AM
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I did, but apparently there are only three perfect measuring speakers besides the Salon2s. I appreciate the suggestions people offered and will put aside some time to hear them while in Manhattan for work. If there are any others worth giving a listen, please feel free to offer more suggestions.
In what price range?
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post #2806 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 11:11 AM
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In what price range?
$7k to $24k would be nice. Albeit if there’s something in a lower price bracket that is a world beater, then would love to go listen. Thanks!
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post #2807 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
So, finally settling into my new place in NY. I would love a list of speakers people feel fit the criteria in this thread for some spare time hobby listening at audio stores. Revel excluded, as I’ve owned or heard their pinnacle offerings before. Thanks in advance.
JBL M2 and LSR 7 series. SCL series (in wall). Have you seen this thread?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ever-made.html

You seem to insinuate that the Salon2 did not do it for you. Can you elaborate on why you are looking for something else?
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post #2808 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 01:16 PM
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$7k to $24k would be nice. Albeit if there’s something in a lower price bracket that is a world beater, then would love to go listen. Thanks!

You might want to check the AXPONA 2019 show review for some ideas of what to look at further. I generally posted while in the room or just after.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...na-2019-a.html

I'm pretty jaded after 50+ years of shows, but the standouts for the money are the super dirt cheap Magnepan LRSs (on order) and the new $2,000 to $5,000 Dynaudio Evoke line. There were a few others that I noted immediately after leaving a room, but not all that much impressed me. Maybe the small(er) Von Schweikert Ultra 9s in the VAC room. The Kharma Elegance S7 loudspeakers at $18,000.
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post #2809 of 5313 Old 05-08-2019, 10:17 PM
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$7k to $24k would be nice. Albeit if there’s something in a lower price bracket that is a world beater, then would love to go listen. Thanks!
The KEF reference are pretty much the best measuring speakers I've seen. For around 10k, there isn't much that is going to beat a pair of Reference ones with a couple subs in the mix.
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post #2810 of 5313 Old 05-09-2019, 08:11 AM
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JBL M2 and LSR 7 series. SCL series (in wall). Have you seen this thread?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ever-made.html

You seem to insinuate that the Salon2 did not do it for you. Can you elaborate on why you are looking for something else?
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I’m going to make an effort to go out and hear them all.

As far as the Salon2s, I sold those with my previous house. For me two things bothered me. One, they never seemed to project holographically for me like some other speakers I’ve experienced. Two, the sibilance in female vocals constantly grated at me. Perhaps I have Misophonia or something, but it was intolerable. It didn’t bother me after I put them behind a perforated screen in a home theater, but I also didn’t use them for music really after that change.

I’m not looking to switch my current speakers (803 D3s, ML Montis, Focal Solo6 Be), but would love to go out and listen to some new stuff for fun. I could actually use some smaller speakers in one spot in the new place, so perhaps if some of the Genelics are small enough, they could fit the bill.
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post #2811 of 5313 Old 05-09-2019, 08:51 AM
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I’m going to make an effort to go out and hear them all.

As far as the Salon2s, I sold those with my previous house. For me two things bothered me. One, they never seemed to project holographically for me like some other speakers I’ve experienced. Two, the sibilance in female vocals constantly grated at me. Perhaps I have Misophonia or something, but it was intolerable. It didn’t bother me after I put them behind a perforated screen in a home theater, but I also didn’t use them for music really after that change.

I’m not looking to switch my current speakers (803 D3s, ML Montis, Focal Solo6 Be), but would love to go out and listen to some new stuff for fun. I could actually use some smaller speakers in one spot in the new place, so perhaps if some of the Genelics are small enough, they could fit the bill.
"One, they never seemed to project holographically for me like some other speakers I’ve experienced"

Yep, That's been my beef with Harman products over many decades. Yeah, they may measure great given what they can measure, but there's a lot more to it than just that, IMO. (now watch what happens)
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"One, they never seemed to project holographically for me like some other speakers I’ve experienced"

Yep, That's been my beef with Harman products over many decades. Yeah, they may measure great given what they can measure, but there's a lot more to it than just that, IMO. (now watch what happens)
Have you ever spent the time micro adjusting any modern Revels like you do your Martin Logans, and previous panels?
Just curious, I haven't heard either, myself.
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post #2813 of 5313 Old 05-09-2019, 09:34 AM
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"One, they never seemed to project holographically for me like some other speakers I’ve experienced"

Yep, That's been my beef with Harman products over many decades. Yeah, they may measure great given what they can measure, but there's a lot more to it than just that, IMO. (now watch what happens)
It’s one of the reasons I’ve been curious about the intersection of musical aptitudes, visuo-spatial reasoning, and speaker imaging. If there is a strong positive correlation between those three that only becomes active once aptitudes and spatial reasoning are high enough, then single speaker tests vs. stereo speaker tests with that populations might produce new variables worth measuring. Like I mentioned awhile back, it has little utility for selling speakers though. You’re dealing with a small percentile of people within an already small percentile of people (very musically adept people with high visuo-spatial IQs).
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Have you ever spent the time micro adjusting any modern Revels like you do your Martin Logans, and previous panels?
Just curious, I haven't heard either, myself.

In the previous house, the MLs worked well where I originally placed them. True, I cheated, it's not like I don't have a few years experience working with dipoles. No micro adjusting was necessary so that issue is more specific to this room in this house. In the previous house, they were plenty good enough where I originally placed them so I didn't try screwing with them much knowing that I was moving a month or so after I got the speakers. I just didn't want the return period to run if there was an issue.

Upstairs here in the LR, they're also pretty easy, but as I've said before, neighbors can hear if I get rowdy. Further, the process is much simpler with forward firing monopoles so you have no back wave to deal with.

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It’s one of the reasons I’ve been curious about the intersection of musical aptitudes, visuo-spatial reasoning, and speaker imaging. If there is a strong positive correlation between those three that only becomes active once aptitudes and spatial reasoning are high enough, then single speaker tests vs. stereo speaker tests with that populations might produce new variables worth measuring. Like I mentioned awhile back, it has little utility for selling speakers though. You’re dealing with a small percentile of people within an already small percentile of people (very musically adept people with high visuo-spatial IQs).

Agree. I've written enough times about my 'real music, played on real unamplified instruments, by real musicians, in a real space', starting in 1947 so that my early exposure was hearing music in a very different way than many/most do today. It's the relationship of the instruments, conductor, musicians, etc. to the space that I first listen for so everything or just about everything that the Northridge gang measures is secondary to my primary interest. Not that tonally neutral is of no importance to me, but it pales in comparison to the three-dimensional 'hand waving' elements.
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It’s one of the reasons I’ve been curious about the intersection of musical aptitudes, visuo-spatial reasoning, and speaker imaging. If there is a strong positive correlation between those three that only becomes active once aptitudes and spatial reasoning are high enough, then single speaker tests vs. stereo speaker tests with that populations might produce new variables worth measuring. Like I mentioned awhile back, it has little utility for selling speakers though. You’re dealing with a small percentile of people within an already small percentile of people (very musically adept people with high visuo-spatial IQs).
Based on my limited knowledge, I feel that a large portion of my friends look for a speaker's ability to "holographically" image well when making a purchase decision.
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Imaging and the big "presence" of my Maggies was my biggest concern going to Salon2's. I went back and forth with John about before purchase "just in case". So far, after a couple of years with them, I have not been disappointed in their ability to recreate a compelling soundstage equal to my Maggies. They don't have the "floor to ceiling" sound waves of the Maggies but do some other things, like bass, better. And they have a smooth transition among drivers through the midrange, one of the biggest problems I always heard, or thought I heard, from many other conventional speakers.

IME/IMO - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2818 of 5313 Old 05-09-2019, 06:07 PM
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As far as the Salon2s, I sold those with my previous house. For me two things bothered me. One, they never seemed to project holographically for me like some other speakers I’ve experienced. Two, the sibilance in female vocals constantly grated at me. Perhaps I have Misophonia or something, but it was intolerable. It didn’t bother me after I put them behind a perforated screen in a home theater, but I also didn’t use them for music really after that change.

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Agree. I've written enough times about my 'real music, played on real unamplified instruments, by real musicians, in a real space', starting in 1947 so that my early exposure was hearing music in a very different way than many/most do today. It's the relationship of the instruments, conductor, musicians, etc. to the space that I first listen for so everything or just about everything that the Northridge gang measures is secondary to my primary interest. Not that tonally neutral is of no importance to me, but it pales in comparison to the three-dimensional 'hand waving' elements.
I've only ever experienced a really convincing "sonic hologram" with a 2-channel pair of speakers one time . It was a pair of Wilson WAMM's in a very unusual setup. It was at an old private residence building that had been converted to a high-end audio showroom. The Wilson's were upstairs in a large, wide open room. I would guess the room dimensions to be about 25' deep x 20' wide x 15' tall. The speakers had been setup by "someone from the factory who had spent 2 days getting them "just perfect."" Here's what was weird: they were setup very close to the middle of the room, and they were asymmetrically located to the LP. The right speaker was about 1.5' further away, and further to the right than the left speaker was to the left, and it was toe'd in much less than the left speaker. Even weirder, the listening position was a wooden chair placed right against the back wall. Behind your head was a 2'x2'x4" acoustic absorption panel. I was instructed to place my head directly against the panel.

In spite of the "weirdness" of the setup, the imaging of this system was uncanny. Each instrument occupied its' own distinct 3-dimensional space, with some in the front, some behind, some left, some right, but each one uniquely owning it's own space. The soundstage was wide and deep in a way I had never experienced before, nor since. Even more uncanny, I spent time looking directly at, and focusing on, each of the speakers and never once did I identify ANYTHING that seemed to originate from the speaker. It all just "existed" within the room as if the (weird looking, monolithic) speakers were inanimate statue-type objects that bore no relationship to the music.



And yet, in spite of this incredibly believable imaging and soundstage, that system still didn't achieve 'real music, played on real unamplified instruments, by real musicians, in a real space'. It was no where near as dynamic, and it didn't come close to the dynamic range of live music. As my good friend @audioguy has described it:

Quote:
Multi-channel enhancement of 2 channel music, to my ears, is a huge improvement over 2 channel (still not marginally close to a live event). I used to believe that a great home audio system could at least reproduce a 3 piece jazz combo. But then my wonderful bride surprised me for a birthday and hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. If live music is 100, then the very, very best 2 channel audio system is a 10 - maybe!!! It is that far apart. So I quit the chase toward perfection (and the attendant expense) and decided to focus on fun. (Still ain't cheap - and it is still an addiction interesting hobby!!!). There are very few pieces of music that don't sound more "fun" to my ears when expanded to multi-channel. In the FWIW department, if you were to sit at the MLP listening to music, you would not know you were not listening to 2-channel - until I switched to 2-channel.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post24134933

@QueueCumber , I believe at one time you owned some Wilson speakers. Did they provide the "sonic hologram" I experienced with the WAMM's?

Craig
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post #2819 of 5313 Old 05-09-2019, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I've only ever experienced a really convincing "sonic hologram" with a 2-channel pair of speakers one time . It was a pair of Wilson WAMM's in a very unusual setup. It was at an old private residence building that had been converted to a high-end audio showroom. The Wilson's were upstairs in a large, wide open room. I would guess the room dimensions to be about 25' deep x 20' wide x 15' tall. The speakers had been setup by "someone from the factory who had spent 2 days getting them "just perfect."" Here's what was weird: they were setup very close to the middle of the room, and they were asymmetrically located to the LP. The right speaker was about 1.5' further away, and further to the right than the left speaker was to the left, and it was toe'd in much less than the left speaker. Even weirder, the listening position was a wooden chair placed right against the back wall. Behind your head was a 2'x2'x4" acoustic absorption panel. I was instructed to place my head directly against the panel.

In spite of the "weirdness" of the setup, the imaging of this system was uncanny. Each instrument occupied its' own distinct 3-dimensional space, with some in the front, some behind, some left, some right, but each one uniquely owning it's own space. The soundstage was wide and deep in a way I had never experienced before, nor since. Even more uncanny, I spent time looking directly at, and focusing on, each of the speakers and never once did I identify ANYTHING that seemed to originate from the speaker. It all just "existed" within the room as if the (weird looking, monolithic) speakers were inanimate statue-type objects that bore no relationship to the music.



And yet, in spite of this incredibly believable imaging and soundstage, that system still didn't achieve 'real music, played on real unamplified instruments, by real musicians, in a real space'. It was no where near as dynamic, and it didn't come close to the dynamic range of live music. As my good friend @audioguy has described it:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post24134933

@QueueCumber , I believe at one time you owned some Wilson speakers. Did they provide the "sonic hologram" I experienced with the WAMM's?

Craig

"Here's what was weird: they were setup very close to the middle of the room, and they were asymmetrically located to the LP. The right speaker was about 1.5' further away, and further to the right than the left speaker was to the left, and it was toe'd in much less than the left speaker"

This is that 'Sumiko' method of speaker setup. They had a presenter at RMAF a few years ago who tried to explain this, but frankly, the method was fine, but the presenter was not great, making it a little hard to follow. Given that it wasn't very intuitive to start with didn't help matters. Finding the 'acoustic' center of the room isn't necessarily the physical center of the room.

Found it


"'real music, played on real unamplified instruments, by real musicians, in a real space'."

This is my standard, my goal, but I didn't say that it was achievable at this point. I've heard close.

Last edited by Scotth3886; 05-09-2019 at 08:32 PM.
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post #2820 of 5313 Old 05-10-2019, 08:21 AM
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WP7s I heard at a store set up well and felt they had a realistic dimensional feel. Sadly, the WP8s were about to release, and I ordered those instead of picking up the 7s, thinking at the time that they would likely be better sounding. I was never happy with the 8s. Fortunately, I was able to find someone who sold them to me at a nice discount and didn't lose my shirt selling them on eBay. The 8s seemed anemic to me in the bass and lower mid-range.

I will say, the best thing to come out of that transaction was seeing someone actually do the WASP in person. I had been using it on my own and thought I was going crazy because I was always finding more than one setup zone off the front wall. I flew the dealer in for setup and he was finding the same thing.
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