How to Choose a Loudspeaker -- What the Science Shows - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2851 of 3044 Old 05-17-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
Yes, yes, of course, that must have been his only intention. I will put away my cynicism and don my naïveté...
If we question one person's intentions then we should likewise be prepared to be challenged. Exactly what are the ulterior motives of everyone questioning the OP's ulterior motives? On the other hand if the forum degenerates into a mud-slinging contest of everyone continuously questioning everyone else's intentions then the forum ceases to be worth reading. Reasonable skepticism can be productive. Mindless skepticism is usually destructive.
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post #2852 of 3044 Old 05-17-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
If we question one person's intentions then we should likewise be prepared to be challenged. Exactly what are the ulterior motives of everyone questioning the OP's ulterior motives? On the other hand if the forum degenerates into a mud-slinging contest of everyone continuously questioning everyone else's intentions then the forum ceases to be worth reading. Reasonable skepticism can be productive. Mindless skepticism is usually destructive.
Ok. His post seemed reasonable enough to me. Yours seemed like mudslinging. *shrugs*
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post #2853 of 3044 Old 05-17-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
In other news, I picked up one of those JBL Boomboxes, and I have to say it’s pretty darn good for what it does. I may go pick up a second one so I can listen to them in stereo on the patio! I didn’t DBT it against the competition, but it seemed fairly obvious it was higher quality sound (and more balanced) across the frequency spectrum compared to its peers.

Does Harmon spinorama these things?
Probably.
But you'll never know unless someone "inside" shares - Harman have ridiculously little actual measurements on a lot of their products pages.
I actually find it very funny for company that talks a lot about science and technical stuff.


To the people arguing about marketing - it does not matter.
Just read between the lines of post of any affiliated person. There is plenty of useful information there.
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post #2854 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 06:56 AM
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Ok. His post seemed reasonable enough to me. Yours seemed like mudslinging. *shrugs*
Odd that anyone would see mudslinging in a post cautioning against the downside of mudslinging. But I guess it does help illustrate how far astray misinterpretation of intent can lead.
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post #2855 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
Well, to be fair to Red MC, it only took KV 15 minutes to get to his third post where it was no longer the science in the abstract but comparison diagrams between Harman speakers and Magico. lol...
But that is the sort of post that many here have been clamoring for.

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post #2856 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Odd that anyone would see mudslinging in a post cautioning against the downside of mudslinging. But I guess it does help illustrate how far astray misinterpretation of intent can lead.
Well, that's because your other post was deleted or removed...
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post #2857 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 07:30 AM
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To the people arguing about marketing - it does not matter.
Just read between the lines of post of any affiliated person. There is plenty of useful information there.
That's my feeling on it too.

Though, I'm still trying to understand why the Salon2s weren't doing it for me when they should have been doing it for me according to the science.
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post #2858 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 07:33 AM
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Well, that's because your other post was deleted or removed...
Now you've really lost me. All of the posts I've made in this thread are still here. None have been deleted or removed. If we can't have a reasonable dialog let's just agree to ignore each other's posts.
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post #2859 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 07:39 AM
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I'm sure in 150-200 years everyone will have implants that stimulate/trick the audio neurons into experiencing live events, and physical transducers will go the way of the dinosaur...
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post #2860 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 07:43 AM
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The biggest take away I get from Dr. Toole’s work and indeed in scientific testing and methods in general is it is impossible to get away from cognitive bias without strict controls. What I see is people wanting information until it does not reinforce their own experience. Then it denigrates to either attacking the science (which is fine if it is done with more science) or sadly attacking the scientist.

And just to put an exclamation point on it, I consider Dr. Toole a dedicated scientist no matter where he was employed. Doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with his findings but I would suggest doing it with more than anecdotal experiences. Just my opinion.

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post #2861 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Now you've really lost me. All of the posts I've made in this thread are still here. None have been deleted or removed. If we can't have a reasonable dialog let's just agree to ignore each other's posts.
You are correct. It was another guy named Dave (and the post was deleted/removed). My mistake...

*I had to go through my email notifications to find the post.*
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post #2862 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post
The biggest take away I get from Dr. Toole’s work and indeed in scientific testing and methods in general is it is impossible to get away from cognitive bias without strict controls. What I see is people wanting information until it does not reinforce their own experience. Then it denigrates to either attacking the science (which is fine if it is done with more science) or sadly attacking the scientist.

And just to put an exclamation point on it, I consider Dr. Toole a dedicated scientist no matter where he was employed. Doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with his findings but I would suggest doing it with more than anecdotal experiences. Just my opinion.
I don't disagree with his findings. I am curious about the outliers and what is being missed in that small percentile of people, considering people with obvious hearing deficiencies were culled from the herd. Sadly, it doesn't have application for the general public, so it will likely never be researched/funded.
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post #2863 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 08:08 AM
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For me, subjective sighted reviews are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. It really is a PITA to do proper blind testing, I wish there was a market for relatively cheap ABX switching boxes. Of course audiophools will blame the box if the results don't match their expectations, but who cares.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/menta...placebo-effect
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post #2864 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
For me, subjective sighted reviews are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. It really is a PITA to do proper blind testing, I wish there was a market for relatively cheap ABX switching boxes. Of course audiophools will blame the box if the results don't match their expectations, but who cares.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/menta...placebo-effect
You could always do something like the Moulton Golden Ears courses, but then you still need a flat measuring transducer that measures flat in the listening space... lol
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post #2865 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
That's my feeling on it too.

Though, I'm still trying to understand why the Salon2s weren't doing it for me when they should have been doing it for me according to the science.
Maybe Salon2 is more flat than M2 if you want some science and use the Occam's razor?
M2 is not exceptionally flat on its axis (on third party measurements), I'd say average flatness, nothing spectacular.

Maybe average in listening window is very flat, Haven't seen that measurements from third party.
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post #2866 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
If we question one person's intentions then we should likewise be prepared to be challenged. Exactly what are the ulterior motives of everyone questioning the OP's ulterior motives?
Indeed, trying to divine true motives (rather than stated motives) requires a bit of mind reading. Instead of questioning why a claim was made, it would be more useful to question the claim itself. In this case: can a certain set of speaker measurements predict general preference in blind listening tests? Seems it can, with some reliability. Does the fact that people generally prefer certain speakers guarantee that you will be one of those people? Of course not. That would be like questioning how a song can be sitting atop the Top 40 charts when it's not your personal favourite song.
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post #2867 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
For me, subjective sighted reviews are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. It really is a PITA to do proper blind testing, I wish there was a market for relatively cheap ABX switching boxes. Of course audiophools will blame the box if the results don't match their expectations, but who cares.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/menta...placebo-effect
Not cheap, but apparently available.


https://avahifi.com/collections/acce...tch-comparator
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post #2868 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 10:25 AM
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Indeed, trying to divine true motives (rather than stated motives) requires a bit of mind reading. Instead of questioning why a claim was made, it would be more useful to question the claim itself. In this case: can a certain set of speaker measurements predict general preference in blind listening tests? Seems it can, with some reliability. Does the fact that people generally prefer certain speakers guarantee that you will be one of those people? Of course not. That would be like questioning how a song can be sitting atop the Top 40 charts when it's not your personal favourite song.
Haven't dropped into this thread for a while and see the same arguments being made now that were made at the beginning.

I don't believe anyone has said good measurements are a 100 percent guarantee of personal preference, just a strong indicator for a majority.

At least that's been my takeaway.
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post #2869 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 11:24 AM
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My new listening room. No early or late side wall or ceiling reflections, but a lot of ambient lawnmower and air conditioner noises...
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post #2870 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 01:26 PM
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My new listening room. No early or late side wall or ceiling reflections, but a lot of ambient lawnmower and air conditioner noises...

Do they image well?

How is the off axis response?

Will you try to add acoustic treatments?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #2871 of 3044 Old 05-18-2019, 03:04 PM
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Do they image well?

How is the off axis response?

Will you try to add acoustic treatments?
Let’s just say that not only do you hear Eddie Van Halen’s 1972 Lamborghini Miura S in Panama, but you also hear his lawnmower as well...
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post #2872 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 04:43 AM
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As it happens, most of the research presented in this thread initiated at the National Research Council in Ottawa, Canada between the mid-sixties and the early nineties. There, Dr. Toole developed the blind screen listening test, co-relating it to speaker measurements in an anechoic chamber. Sean Olive joined him there. Harmon International had the foresight and the means to hire them, where they continued their research. HI also allowed the results of their research to be available to anyone who wishes to use it HI fortunately has the engineering and manufacturing capabilities to design and build drivers and cabinets that meet specific criteria.

As I see it, this thread was begun to reveal to us Audioholics design parameters that result in pretty darn good sounding speakers if followed, not to espouse the merits of one or two brands. Some manufactures have taken this research to heart. Others have not. Few have the depth of pockets that Harmon does. That may answer why some have not.

There has been a dearth of research relating what we hear with objective measurements until now. It is a shame to diss it when it is so rare. As a golden-eared audiophile when I joined PSB 40 years ago, I was utterly confused and bewildered by my first double blind listening tests. The elimination of the bias of sight was one thing that unnerved me. My beloved 105s were beaten handsomely by a pair of speakers costing a fifth, but the test made me a believer in its veracity, and I continue to value the results of tests like this over mere opinion.

BTW, I have never owned a Harmon product. However, I use PSB and Energy products that were designed at NRC Canada using much of the research that Toole, Olive, et al. developed.

I post this only because others are probably very tired of reiterating the same time and time again.
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post #2873 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 12:02 PM
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It will need reiterated again once the page flips.

Also, good post, but, it's Harman.
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post #2874 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 01:18 PM
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I don't disagree with his findings. I am curious about the outliers and what is being missed in that small percentile of people, considering people with obvious hearing deficiencies were culled from the herd. Sadly, it doesn't have application for the general public, so it will likely never be researched/funded.
Actually there is quite a lot of data related to listeners with less than normal hearing. See Section 3.2 and other places in my book and the original papers in a refereed journal:
Toole, F. E. (1985). “Subjective measurements of loudspeaker sound quality and listener preferences”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 33. pp. 2-31.
Toole, F. E. (1986). “Loudspeaker measurements and their relationship to listener preferences”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 34, pt.1, pp. 227-235, pt. 2, pp. 323-348.

It will be seen that individuals with hearing deficiencies are individualistic in their performances and all of them exhibit the principal trend of greatly increased, and essentially random, variations in their assessments of sound quality in repeated tests. So, their opinions are not just different from the "culled herd" but they vary randomly with time. Why? They are not hearing all of the sound, and their binaural hearing (localization and spatial discrimination) capabilities are also degraded. See Chapter 17 in my book. Abundant evidence of the differences among individuals with hearing loss is to observe experiences with hearing aids (which I have fortunately avoided so far). There are widespread difficulties in getting a satisfactory "fitting" and calibration. I have assisted in this with three people and it is a field greatly in need of improvement. Audiologists know little to nothing about what matters to acousticians or average audiophiles - it is a foreign language to the ones I have encountered. Their focus and that of virtually all of their evaluation methods is narrow band speech intelligibility.

For that reason we "cull" listeners with seriously degraded hearing - their opinions matter only to them, and perhaps only at a time and place. It is reassuring in a global industry to have guidance that has relevance to approximately 75% of the population, according to hearing statistics. However, as my analysis has shown, variations in judgments begin to rise even before 20 dB of threshold elevation is seen - something that audiologists would not even bother to comment on.

I suffer from hearing loss, including tinnitus, so I am not being elitist. I stopped participating in our listening tests around age 60 when it became clear that my judgments were becoming less consistent. I still have opinions, but they are mine and mine alone. I trust spinorama measurements to guide my loudspeaker selections - neutrality being essential - and apply multi-sub Sound Field Management to fix the bass, which I can still hear very well As for crummy recordings, that is what tone controls are for - or just move on to better material, of which there is quite a lot.

In the meantime, if your hearing is normal, do everything possible to keep it that way. Musicians earplugs have been my companion for over 30 years. They just turn the volume down, leaving spectrum relatively intact - good for flying, rock concerts, mowing the lawn, etc. www.etymotic.com, the inventors, is a place to start.
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post #2875 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 01:36 PM
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I have a granddaughter who got hearing aids at 6 weeks and a father-in-law who is 95, never got them but should have years ago. I also have tinnitus and some hearing loss. So far, I do not need hearing aids but encourage anyone that does to get them. That industry should be a boom in the coming years and I hope for advances in technology as well.
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post #2876 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Actually there is quite a lot of data related to listeners with less than normal hearing. See Section 3.2 and other places in my book and the original papers in a refereed journal:
Toole, F. E. (1985). “Subjective measurements of loudspeaker sound quality and listener preferences”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 33. pp. 2-31.
Toole, F. E. (1986). “Loudspeaker measurements and their relationship to listener preferences”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 34, pt.1, pp. 227-235, pt. 2, pp. 323-348.

It will be seen that individuals with hearing deficiencies are individualistic in their performances and all of them exhibit the principal trend of greatly increased, and essentially random, variations in their assessments of sound quality in repeated tests. So, their opinions are not just different from the "culled herd" but they vary randomly with time. Why? They are not hearing all of the sound, and their binaural hearing (localization and spatial discrimination) capabilities are also degraded. See Chapter 17 in my book. Abundant evidence of the differences among individuals with hearing loss is to observe experiences with hearing aids (which I have fortunately avoided so far). There are widespread difficulties in getting a satisfactory "fitting" and calibration. I have assisted in this with three people and it is a field greatly in need of improvement. Audiologists know little to nothing about what matters to acousticians or average audiophiles - it is a foreign language to the ones I have encountered. Their focus and that of virtually all of their evaluation methods is narrow band speech intelligibility.

For that reason we "cull" listeners with seriously degraded hearing - their opinions matter only to them, and perhaps only at a time and place. It is reassuring in a global industry to have guidance that has relevance to approximately 75% of the population, according to hearing statistics. However, as my analysis has shown, variations in judgments begin to rise even before 20 dB of threshold elevation is seen - something that audiologists would not even bother to comment on.

I suffer from hearing loss, including tinnitus, so I am not being elitist. I stopped participating in our listening tests around age 60 when it became clear that my judgments were becoming less consistent. I still have opinions, but they are mine and mine alone. I trust spinorama measurements to guide my loudspeaker selections - neutrality being essential - and apply multi-sub Sound Field Management to fix the bass, which I can still hear very well As for crummy recordings, that is what tone controls are for - or just move on to better material, of which there is quite a lot.

In the meantime, if your hearing is normal, do everything possible to keep it that way. Musicians earplugs have been my companion for over 30 years. They just turn the volume down, leaving spectrum relatively intact - good for flying, rock concerts, mowing the lawn, etc. www.etymotic.com, the inventors, is a place to start.
My interest isn’t really in people who were excluded from the tests. It’s with the very small percentage of people included that diverge from the norm. Like, what’s going on that causes that small portion to vary?
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post #2877 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 02:12 PM
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My interest isn’t really in people who were excluded from the tests. It’s with the very small percentage of people included that diverge from the norm. Like, what’s going on that causes that small portion to vary?
We may never know why there are outliers. In Chapter 17 I discuss a newly discovered hearing problem called "hidden hearing loss" and it afflicts young and old, hearing impaired (by normal criteria) or not. It affects binaural hearing, which affects directional and spatial perceptions. With sound quality and spatial quality being competitive in importance (think about all the discussion in this and other forums about loudspeaker directivity and room treatment) it should be no surprise to find variations within the "culled herd".

However, as the evidence of nearly 50 years has shown, such events do not disrupt the very high correlations exhibited by the vast majority of listeners. Putting it into perspective, the variations in opinions associated with recordings are huge by comparison.

I'm not sure where you are going with this thought.
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post #2878 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 02:16 PM
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My interest isn’t really in people who were excluded from the tests. It’s with the very small percentage of people included that diverge from the norm. Like, what’s going on that causes that small portion to vary?
I would think it more strange if everyone was the same with no deviation.
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post #2879 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 02:30 PM
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We may never know why there are outliers. In Chapter 17 I discuss a newly discovered hearing problem called "hidden hearing loss" and it afflicts young and old, hearing impaired (by normal criteria) or not. It affects binaural hearing, which affects directional and spatial perceptions. With sound quality and spatial quality being competitive in importance (think about all the discussion in this and other forums about loudspeaker directivity and room treatment) it should be no surprise to find variations within the "culled herd".

However, as the evidence of nearly 50 years has shown, such events do not disrupt the vey high correlations exhibited by the vast majority of listeners. Putting it into perspective, the variations in opinions associated with recordings are huge by comparison.

I'm not sure where you are going with this thought.
I’m wondering about potential overlaps/intersections with areas of high IQ and high musical aptitude in these outliers. Is it possible that the competition between sound quality and spatial perception is influenced by these factors as well?
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post #2880 of 3044 Old 05-19-2019, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
I’m wondering about potential overlaps/intersections with areas of high IQ and high musical aptitude in these outliers. Is it possible that the competition between sound quality and spatial perception is influenced by these factors as well?
These are interesting questions, but it will require money, facilities and significant effort to explore them thoroughly. I suspect that ones favorite musical repertoire is a large factor - e.g. rock vs. classics, pinpoint vs spacious renderings, etc. This may itself have a correlation with IQ

For what it is worth, musicians who are not also audiophiles have done poorly in loudspeaker evaluations - they can rationalize, saying such things as: "that may not be a neutral loudspeaker , but it sounded like a reasonable interpretation of a cello". In other words the music survived, but sound quality did not. It is discussed briefly in Section 3.5.2.5 in my book, with references. I also did an experiment with blind listeners, popularly thought to have enhanced auditory capabilities. Maybe, but it was not revealed in their sound quality ratings. However, there seemed to be a relationship between those that were the most consistent listeners and their ability to move about on their own - relying on auditory cues. Others needed an arm. I had a very good blind engineer friend who helped arrange these tests. He travelled the world, sometimes alone on trips. Amazing.
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cea 2034 , double-blind , listening tests , loudspeaker measurements , spinorama

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