Martin Logans suck with rock music. - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
i haven't recently experienced any tweeter harshness , i honestly think other things will fall apart (cab resonance) way before the amt,and honestly , i don't push the b1s hard.. maybe if i get t1s sometime , or the dyns... i really want to a/b the b1's with higher $ stuff ..

Ah okay that’s interesting. Thank you.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #32 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eziggy View Post
This is a bit of generalized comment. Which speakers do you have and which amps are you using? Most of ML's hybrid electrostats drop below 1ohm and need a lot of juice. I had the 11As paired with a Denon receiver and sounded horrible. Moved to a Marantz 8805 + MC452 amp and the speakers came alive (albeit at a cost). Very few low-to-mid range A/V receivers will work really well with ESLs.

I ask which speakers since the bigger the panel the more range you will get. There is a HUGE difference between the entry ESLs and the the 9s or 11As for example. Go higher and even more range, including their powered speakers.

Sure there are speakers that are better suited for rock for that huge slam effect. However, my 11As paired with a 450+ watt MC452 plays rock great I have to say. They are transparent however, so bad recording means bad sound. Good recordings gets you more depth, a solid 3D effect, and gives you the feeling like you are listening to live music. All of this is personal preference of course.

Pair Block Audio mono amps with ML Neolith speakers and I am pretty sure it will be awesome with rock.
For the record, I had the Montis paired with a NAD M12/M22 combo. I can blame some of the dryness on the amp, but the coherence or lack thereof falls directly on the speaker. Maybe they’re better now with the new line, but I’m in no hurry to find out.

It certainly looks like they’ve improved the wimpy cabinet they had on the Montis.
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post #33 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 05:11 PM
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"Panels" MIGHT mean Electrostatic....but it's ambiguous....I would also consider the old "Fresco" and some of the more recent "Motion" and esp. "SLM" Series (intended to be mounted on either side and underneath a DTV) to be "panels":
https://www.hifidiprinzio.it/photos/...-diffusori.jpg [old "Fresco" panels with HDTV]
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1543462534 ["SLM" panels with UDTV]
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/category/our-speakers [Current M-L Line...only CLX is ALL Electrostatic]

PS: Well over a decade ago, I was fortunately enough to have an AFFORDABLE room in the Hilton during CES (next to Las Vegas Conv. Ctr.) with believe-it-or-not FREE Parking [those days are GONE]. Just a few floors away was the Martin-Logan DEMO SUITE [BIG room, unlike those tiny demo rooms at The Venetian and other Hi-End Audio Venues]. After my wife got bored with it all, I was pretty much left ALONE for over an hour with my 12-pack of Demo CD's [Rock, Pop, Jazz, Classical, Organ, even Test CD's incl. 1/3-Octave Band Tests...WAIT!!! they were rightly afraid I might blow out a Tweeter]. I tried out a couple of the [just a bit more than I wanted to spend] Hybrid Electrostatic/Woofer Speakers vs the "Fresco" Panels [intended to be used with HDTV...plus a Sub-Woofer of your choice]. The "Fresco" Panels were of particular interest at that time since I had completed a DIY Center Channel + L/R Speaker Project using the similar Bohlender-Graebener NEO-8 Planar Magnetic Mid-Range [actually I used NEO-8PDR and substituted a Dayton-Audio Ribbon-Super-Tweeter which had smoother frequency response instead of the NEO-3]. And YES, the "Fresco" panels sounded very familiar to what I was already using [although I used 10-in L/R and 7-in Ctr Woofers]....which indeed DO "Rock"....when used with a pair of 15-in Sub-Woofers with 1/3-Octave Band Equalization.
https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...tweeter.112031 [Inside the old "Fresco" panels]

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post #34 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 05:31 PM
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Ah-Ha....some actual specifics.

The old M-L "Monti" was a Hybrid Electrostatic Panel with [wimpy] 10-in Woofer, where JUST the Woofer had its own built-in 200-Watt Amp with some sort of DSP signal processing to [obviously] boost the Bass Roll Off Freqs...and some sort of "magic" for better integration of the ESL and the Amplified Woofer....likely due to the "Baffle Effect" changing the Frequency Response:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...id-loudspeaker

So even with DSP for Bass Boost to increase Low Freq Response (and Distortion), w/o a Sub-Woofer IT WOULD SUCK FOR ROCK....just like any other 10-in Full Range Speaker....and pretty much ANY system using a TOO SMALL 10-in Sub-Woofer for that matter....

If they had been used with a 15-in (or larger) Sub-Woofer, I'm sure the impression would have been quite different.....although as mentioned above, the DIPOLE (blows out Front AND Back) configuration requires a bit of trial and error...and likely also ROOM Equalization. PS: In my L/R Speakers, ONLY the NEO-8PDR Planar Magnetic Mid-Range [700-7000 Hz] are configured as DIPOLES....and since at my age I can't hear Super-Tweeters anyway....esp. after being Reflected off the Rear Wall to some direction OTHER than being directed INTO my ears....I gave up on using Bi-Polar NEO-3's in favor of "similar" conventional Ribbon Super-Tweeters.

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post #35 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Ah-Ha....some actual specifics.

The old M-L "Monti" was a Hybrid Electrostatic Panel with [wimpy] 10-in Woofer, where JUST the Woofer had its own built-in 200-Watt Amp with some sort of DSP signal processing to [obviously] boost the Bass Roll Off Freqs...and some sort of "magic" for better integration of the ESL and the Amplified Woofer....likely due to the "Baffle Effect" changing the Frequency Response:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...id-loudspeaker

So even with DSP for Bass Boost to increase Low Freq Response (and Distortion), w/o a Sub-Woofer IT WOULD SUCK FOR ROCK....just like any other 10-in Full Range Speaker....and pretty much ANY system using a TOO SMALL 10-in Sub-Woofer for that matter....

If they had been used with a 15-in (or larger) Sub-Woofer, I'm sure the impression would have been quite different.....although as mentioned above, the DIPOLE (blows out Front AND Back) configuration requires a bit of trial and error...and likely also ROOM Equalization. PS: In my L/R Speakers, ONLY the NEO-8PDR Planar Magnetic Mid-Range [700-7000 Hz] are configured as DIPOLES....and since at my age I can't hear Super-Tweeters anyway....esp. after being Reflected off the Rear Wall to some direction OTHER than being directed INTO my ears....I gave up on using Bi-Polar NEO-3's in favor of "similar" conventional Ribbon Super-Tweeters.
No, you're really not getting it. My current speakers certainly don't have anywhere near the bass output of a 15" subwoofer and they're great with rock. That's not even in the ballpark of what I'm talking about, but color me un-surprised on a forum mainly dedicated to home theaters.
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post #36 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
There, I said it.

They sound very good on acoustic music and jazz. But if you desire to ever put on some hard rock music, they completely fall apart.

They have no drive. No coherence. No....BALLS. They sound drier than the Sahara with electric guitar.

Anyone out there being seduced by these panels, consider yourself warned!
Didn't you start similar just a few weeks ago?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...l#post57257826

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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Well if you listened to rock on the ESLs and liked what you heard that's fine.

The OP was just sharing their own opinion.

The ESLs have many fans but even those fans on AVS say they are very picky about placement which is why I could never have them in my home.
True, picky about placement to get the best sound, but decent sound is easy. I recommend staying away unless you're prepared to set up and drive correctly. I never had all that much problem until this room, but everything else sound like crap down there. Now true, I cheat since I've have had 60 years of experience with dipoles, mostly ESLs and 30 - 40% planar magnetics (Magneplanar). Mine do not suck on well-recorded rock music or electronica or any other genre

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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Yes it is quite hard to treat a room to fit those ESL’s. Di-Pole configurations are quite hard to properly setup. I was considering it for my design but quickly dismissed it because it would be hell to make it sound half decent anywhere in my house.

I think I missed something.

I said the AMT’s lacked oomph (for lack of better words) but the ESL’s were decent.

Then you said that he is referring to ESL’s?

Then in that case I’ll have to disagree. But I didn’t spend all that much time with them so I’ll have to sample them again. I stand behind my AMT statement however
Agree with you in re AMTs.

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He did say panel, doesn't that mean electrostatic?
Yes, the OP and I have been 'at it' before

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Originally Posted by eziggy View Post
This is a bit of generalized comment. Which speakers do you have and which amps are you using? Most of ML's hybrid electrostats drop below 1ohm and need a lot of juice. I had the 11As paired with a Denon receiver and sounded horrible. Moved to a Marantz 8805 + MC452 amp and the speakers came alive (albeit at a cost). Very few low-to-mid range A/V receivers will work really well with ESLs.

I ask which speakers since the bigger the panel the more range you will get. There is a HUGE difference between the entry ESLs and the the 9s or 11As for example. Go higher and even more range, including their powered speakers.

Sure there are speakers that are better suited for rock for that huge slam effect. However, my 11As paired with a 450+ watt MC452 plays rock great I have to say. They are transparent however, so bad recording means bad sound. Good recordings gets you more depth, a solid 3D effect, and gives you the feeling like you are listening to live music. All of this is personal preference of course.

Pair Block Audio mono amps with ML Neolith speakers and I am pretty sure it will be awesome with rock.
True, we've tried mine with my brother's Denon x6300 and it wasn't pretty.

Surprisingly, I like the Neolith the least of the ESL line, mostly because ML refuses to set these up correctly at shows (hi Dennis Chern) so they can get a few extra people in the room.

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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
No, you're really not getting it. My current speakers certainly don't have anywhere near the bass output of a 15" subwoofer and they're great with rock. That's not even in the ballpark of what I'm talking about, but color me un-surprised on a forum mainly dedicated to home theaters.
Is anyone in this thread in Central Ohio? If so, I would be happy if you, next time you're in the neighborhood, give me a shout, and stop on by, provided that you'll report back to the forum regarding what you heard. I can treat you even to electronica like you've never heard before and while not all 'rock' will sound good due to the plethora of terrible recordings out there, especially that genre, it's far better than you'd think.

Any volunteers? I'm in New Albany so a short drive from Columbus.

Sorry I'm late, but I was in Florida at the Kissimmee Mecum auction
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post #37 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Didn't you start similar just a few weeks ago?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...l#post57257826



True, picky about placement to get the best sound, but decent sound is easy. I recommend staying away unless you're prepared to set up and drive correctly. I never had all that much problem until this room, but everything else sound like crap down there. Now true, I cheat since I've have had 60 years of experience with dipoles, mostly ESLs and 30 - 40% planar magnetics (Magneplanar). Mine do not suck on well-recorded rock music or electronica or any other genre



Agree with you in re AMTs.



Yes, the OP and I have been 'at it' before



True, we've tried mine with my brother's Denon x6300 and it wasn't pretty.

Surprisingly, I like the Neolith the least of the ESL line, mostly because ML refuses to set these up correctly at shows (hi Dennis Chern) so they can get a few extra people in the room.



Is anyone in this thread in Central Ohio? If so, I would be happy if you, next time you're in the neighborhood, give me a shout, and stop on by, provided that you'll report back to the forum regarding what you heard. I can treat you even to electronica like you've never heard before and while not all 'rock' will sound good due to the plethora of terrible recordings out there, especially that genre, it's far better than you'd think.

Any volunteers? I'm in New Albany so a short drive from Columbus.

Sorry I'm late, but I was in Florida at the Kissimmee Mecum auction
No offense, and I understand that you disagree, but how would hearing a model with an even smaller panel and woofer and retailing at one third the price of the Montis change my opinion???
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post #38 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Didn't you start similar just a few weeks ago?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...l#post57257826



True, picky about placement to get the best sound, but decent sound is easy. I recommend staying away unless you're prepared to set up and drive correctly. I never had all that much problem until this room, but everything else sound like crap down there. Now true, I cheat since I've have had 60 years of experience with dipoles, mostly ESLs and 30 - 40% planar magnetics (Magneplanar). Mine do not suck on well-recorded rock music or electronica or any other genre



Agree with you in re AMTs.



Yes, the OP and I have been 'at it' before



True, we've tried mine with my brother's Denon x6300 and it wasn't pretty.

Surprisingly, I like the Neolith the least of the ESL line, mostly because ML refuses to set these up correctly at shows (hi Dennis Chern) so they can get a few extra people in the room.



Is anyone in this thread in Central Ohio? If so, I would be happy if you, next time you're in the neighborhood, give me a shout, and stop on by, provided that you'll report back to the forum regarding what you heard. I can treat you even to electronica like you've never heard before and while not all 'rock' will sound good due to the plethora of terrible recordings out there, especially that genre, it's far better than you'd think.

Any volunteers? I'm in New Albany so a short drive from Columbus.

Sorry I'm late, but I was in Florida at the Kissimmee Mecum auction
No offense, and I understand that you disagree, but how would hearing a model with an even smaller panel and woofer and retailing at one third the price of the Montis change my opinion???
And about 1/20th the price of the Neoliths. Someone/anyone around here willing to give it a try? And report back to the thread.
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For the record, I had the Montis paired with a NAD M12/M22 combo. I can blame some of the dryness on the amp, but the coherence or lack thereof falls directly on the speaker. Maybe they’re better now with the new line, but I’m in no hurry to find out.

It certainly looks like they’ve improved the wimpy cabinet they had on the Montis.
I almost got the Montis, but decided on the 11As. Many of the reviews were very favorable to the Montis, even with Rock music. The reason I picked up the 11As is because the woofers can be ARC calibrated for difficult rooms. As mentioned previously placement is critically important.

What kind of speaker cables are you using? From my experience, the thicker the gauge the more the bass and "fullness" of sound, especially copper. My speakers used to be ML Source. I went up the AQ line from X2 -> Rocket 88 -> Mont Blanc and the difference in bass and depth was noticeable even with tiny panels the Source speakers had.

It's all about synergy with audio equipment, have you tried another amp before writing off the speakers? I think the M22 is a Class D amp, haven't heard much how they pair with MLs. On paper they look perfect, however in practice the pairing could be a different story. Non-analytical and musical Class A or Class A/B amps like Pass Labs, McIntosh (with autoformers), etc. may be a a better fit with ML to give that depth and bass you are looking for.

One random point, have you tried to connect your computer to phone directly to the amp and see if the tonality changes?
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post #40 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 09:34 PM
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I almost got the Montis, but decided on the 11As. Many of the reviews were very favorable to the Montis, even with Rock music. The reason I picked up the 11As is because the woofers can be ARC calibrated for difficult rooms. As mentioned previously placement is critically important.

What kind of speaker cables are you using? From my experience, the thicker the gauge the more the bass and "fullness" of sound, especially copper. My speakers used to be ML Source. I went up the AQ line from X2 -> Rocket 88 -> Mont Blanc and the difference in bass and depth was noticeable even with tiny panels the Source speakers had.

It's all about synergy with audio equipment, have you tried another amp before writing off the speakers? I think the M22 is a Class D amp, haven't heard much how they pair with MLs. On paper they look perfect, however in practice the pairing could be a different story. Non-analytical and musical Class A or Class A/B amps like Pass Labs, McIntosh (with autoformers), etc. may be a a better fit with ML to give that depth and bass you are looking for.

One random point, have you tried to connect your computer to phone directly to the amp and see if the tonality changes?

"11As is because the woofers can be ARC calibrated for difficult rooms."


If its a null that you're dealing with, and that's generally the problem, using an ARC GS150 or whatever other amp isn't going to help. Or if using room correction to correct a null isn't going to work either. Bigger output = more cancelation.

Peaks you can tame, nulls not so easy

Placement is about the only solution or more subs 'can' also help.
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"11As is because the woofers can be ARC calibrated for difficult rooms."


If its a null that you're dealing with, and that's generally the problem, using an ARC GS150 or whatever other amp isn't going to help. Or if using room correction to correct a null isn't going to work either. Bigger output = more cancelation.

Peaks you can tame, nulls not so easy

Placement is about the only solution or more subs 'can' also help.
The new MLs have ARC calibration built into the speaker similar to their subs. You need the ARC kit, a computer, and you plug directly into the speaker to calibrate. It just gives some flexibility on speaker placement for bass management. This is only for the woofer not the panel.
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post #42 of 185 Old 01-15-2019, 11:35 PM
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I am not allowed to comment, I have cheap Chinese speakers...….
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Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-pedestal.html

Theater house build.....https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...hed-house.html
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post #43 of 185 Old 01-16-2019, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by eziggy View Post
The new MLs have ARC calibration built into the speaker similar to their subs. You need the ARC kit, a computer, and you plug directly into the speaker to calibrate. It just gives some flexibility on speaker placement for bass management. This is only for the woofer not the panel.

Fully understand in the case of the 11a, 13a and the 15a and of course the Neolith that room correction works on the woofer and ML subs, but not the ESL panel. ARC has no products that do this, but wonderful sounding preamps and amps. However, these days way out of my price range. I've been an ARC buyer/owner since 1970 when Bill Johnson first renamed his company from Electronics Industries (1950s) to (in 1970) ARC = Audio Research Corp. He was also the first Magneplanar distributor and personally did my first setup/installation in my house in around 1970. Johnson passed in 2011 at the age of 85. One of the pioneers of what is despairingly known as high-end audio.

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Could just be that the ESL's simply dont work in the same placement as the speakers you are comparing them to.

The martin logan ESL says its low end is 42hz, which isnt too bad, but my mirage m290 (6.5") also have a 42hz low end and placement really matters with how much bass I get. I then bought some m490's (8") and they go to 38hz, for bass heavy music they really make a difference.

Post a picture of where the ESL's are placed and the room. I dont think speakers really favor one kind of music over another, but I suppose if you take a response measurement and theres dips in frequencies that matter in rock music then that could be the issue.

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Could just be that the ESL's simply dont work in the same placement as the speakers you are comparing them to.

The martin logan ESL says its low end is 42hz, which isnt too bad, but my mirage m290 (6.5") also have a 42hz low end and placement really matters with how much bass I get. I then bought some m490's (8") and they go to 38hz, for bass heavy music they really make a difference.

Post a picture of where the ESL's are placed and the room. I dont think speakers really favor one kind of music over another, but I suppose if you take a response measurement and theres dips in frequencies that matter in rock music then that could be the issue.
Placement is critical with dipoles and I generally would set these up differently from monopole cones and domes. Small changes in placement can make big changes in what you hear (and measure). Also, how far apart they are makes just as much difference as fore aft changes. Toe-in is also critical with a degree or less quite audible. Interesting to have a helper rotate these just slightly while your in the MLP. I'd recommend not sited, whether it be a blindfold or maybe a toboggan pulled down over your eyes. It's like aiming a laser with what it does to sound stage, but strangely, after all is said and done, I have little sweet spot. Because I'm so freakin' old I take geezer naps down there on the sofa, which puts my head in front of the right panel instead of the center and I still have a full stage, albeit shifted slightly. I do not have the sound stage collapse to one side. Every room is of course different regarding what works and I recommend experimenting with some radical approaches so see what works.




Using REW which I'm not very good at yet because I've done this by ear for over 60 years, maybe closer to 70 years, I'm still a little hot on high end. That will require little more toe-out, which also screws with the sound stage. I'm currently about a 1/2 degree toed out.

The green line is where I have them now.



Plus vanishingly low levels of THD even at 100hz. Distortion is much lower when you get up and over the x-over point into ESL panel only.



I do have a little something that bothers me at about 1.5k which I see on the waterfall graph. So more fooling around by a half degree or so trying to get rid of it



Also rake is important to adjust soundstage height. This will vary from MLP to panel and everyone will likely end somewhere different, but it's critical that it be the same from side to side. Again, have your helper slightly tilt just one side and you'll see what I mean.



A reviewer who takes placement just about as far as you can go, wrote the following in a HT fanboi magazine.

https://www.hometheatershack.com/for...er-review.html

https://www.hometheatershack.com/for...tml#post680654
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post #46 of 185 Old 01-16-2019, 08:54 AM
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Even though the OP was being somewhat provocative, and at the risk of offending some of our dear ML owning members...


I hold the same opinion about Martin Logan, and pretty much any other panel speakers.


I dearly loved my Quad ESL 63s for quite a while, but they just couldn't rock out (though they actually did that better than other pure electrostatics. I'd say the old Martin Logan CLS was the ultimate example of a speaker that was all transparency and no rock).


I added the Gradient dipole subwoofer specially made for the 63s and it remains the most seamless pairing of dynamic woofer and panel I've yet heard. But still, once I had noticed the way a panel doesn't seem to move air in the same way as a dynamic speaker - a sort of holographic but weightless quality - I couldn't unhear it.



When I listen to attempts to mate dynamic woofers with electrostatic panels to increase dynamics and bass depth, usually Martin Logans, what I always hear is the dynamic woofer creating a sense of palpability and punch *within it's frequency range* and anything moved up in to the panel range has that ghostly "not really moving air" quality.
I'm constantly aware of that mismatch.


My friend with some ML hybrids thinks they are pretty good at rocking out because he can feel that woofer section pumping the air down low so "hey, can't you feel that bass?" But what I hear is very low end instruments like bass having some good pressure, but everything else - e.g. electric guitars in rock - just sounding weightless and hovering above the bass with no chunkiness, no force. When I play the same tracks at my house on pure dynamic speakers, I get a seamless sense of density, body and dynamics from top to bottom that for me is much more convincing and enjoyable for dynamic music like rock, pop and...well...everything actually.


But hey, that's my own opinion. If someone rocks out happily to Martin Logan speakers I'm not going to say they "can't rock" for other people.
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post #47 of 185 Old 01-16-2019, 09:33 AM
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Even though the OP was being somewhat provocative, and at the risk of offending some of our dear ML owning members...


I hold the same opinion about Martin Logan, and pretty much any other panel speakers.


I dearly loved my Quad ESL 63s for quite a while, but they just couldn't rock out (though they actually did that better than other pure electrostatics. I'd say the old Martin Logan CLS was the ultimate example of a speaker that was all transparency and no rock).


I added the Gradient dipole subwoofer specially made for the 63s and it remains the most seamless pairing of dynamic woofer and panel I've yet heard. But still, once I had noticed the way a panel doesn't seem to move air in the same way as a dynamic speaker - a sort of holographic but weightless quality - I couldn't unhear it.



When I listen to attempts to mate dynamic woofers with electrostatic panels to increase dynamics and bass depth, usually Martin Logans, what I always hear is the dynamic woofer creating a sense of palpability and punch *within it's frequency range* and anything moved up in to the panel range has that ghostly "not really moving air" quality.
I'm constantly aware of that mismatch.


My friend with some ML hybrids thinks they are pretty good at rocking out because he can feel that woofer section pumping the air down low so "hey, can't you feel that bass?" But what I hear is very low end instruments like bass having some good pressure, but everything else - e.g. electric guitars in rock - just sounding weightless and hovering above the bass with no chunkiness, no force. When I play the same tracks at my house on pure dynamic speakers, I get a seamless sense of density, body and dynamics from top to bottom that for me is much more convincing and enjoyable for dynamic music like rock, pop and...well...everything actually.


But hey, that's my own opinion. If someone rocks out happily to Martin Logan speakers I'm not going to say they "can't rock" for other people.

"I'd say the old Martin Logan CLS was the ultimate example of a speaker that was all transparency and no rock"

I had CLSs for about 20 years from the time they were introduced up until I move back here. I had many other speakers during that time, but never got around to selling these. They did certain aspects better than any other speaker that I knew of at the time, but there was no meat on those bones. Subs didn't help all that much. They needed much more meat in the 150hz to 500hz+/- range.



"but everything else - e.g. electric guitars in rock - just sounding weightless and hovering above the bass with no chunkiness, no force"

For the newer hybrids, it's all in placement, and isn't easy, witnessed by what I've gone through in this room. Previous house with the same system, it was rather easy, but not here.

As I've said what must be a 1000 times, anyone is welcome here for a test drive and then can report back to forum.
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Good info, thank you, but I asked the question wrong

Where would you say the AMT falters SPL wise? Like where would you say the highs start becoming harsh or grainy?
That is not an issue with the AMT in the Martin Logans and the cabinet is rock solid.

Where some have criticized the LX16s that I have is in mid range punch but I don't find that at all and my Umik and REW didn't find it in my in room measurements.

YMMV!
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That is not an issue with the AMT in the Martin Logans and the cabinet is rock solid.



Where some have criticized the LX16s that I have is in mid range punch but I don't find that at all and my Umik and REW didn't find it in my in room measurements.



YMMV!

Interesting. So I guess I’m taking this too the extreme but... where would the AMT physically fail? What is the power rating essentially. How much juice could I give the LX16’s or B1’s before the AMT’s fry themselves? Odd question but I think this would be very good information for someone who actually wants extremely high SPL’s out of their tweeter because they have the rest of the range covered. Perhaps for me

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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As I've said what must be a 1000 times, anyone is welcome here for a test drive and then can report back to forum.
Your in room measurements look mighty impressive so you MUST be done driving yourself crazy, right?

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Interesting. So I guess I’m taking this too the extreme but... where would the AMT physically fail? What is the power rating essentially. How much juice could I give the LX16’s or B1’s before the AMT’s fry themselves? Odd question but I think this would be very good information for someone who actually wants extremely high SPL’s out of their tweeter because they have the rest of the range covered. Perhaps for me
To be honest I have no idea as my massive SPL days are well behind me!

I think an AMT in a three way design would be just fine at high SPLs, maybe not in a 2 way design where it's asked to dig deeper.
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Bass needs room gain, and some speaker builders actually expect the speaker to be placed in a place that will give it room gain.

If youve ever done a subwoofer crawl the idea is the same. You could build an 18" subwoofer and place it in a terrible location and get lacking lows but decent bass above that, or you could place it and get boomy lows.

Most people do not prefer a flat sound reponse. This is why sound bars with a subwoofer and these small satalite speakers with a subwoofer sell so well, the highs and the lows are boosted and the mids arent really there. A studio monitor is designed to be FLAT from (example) 35hz-20khz. That does not mean when you plug it in it will be flat. If you place it in a corner you will get room gain from the low end. if you place it mid wall you will get no low end. Placement matters as well as room treatments. If martin logan claims its flat, and @Scotth3886 shows with his graph, they are pretty damn flat. Adding a subwoofer will boost the lows (back to what I said about people like boosted lows and highs, its a sound we like, it sounds "rich", boosted highs sound bright). But anyways, the need for the subwoofer, and the fact the subwoofer helps the sound, is still placement and room treatment related.

Lots of people have lots of money, yet they are too proud to get on the floor and crawl around lol. Or they go for form over funtion. Doesnt matter how much you spend on speakers, if you place them badly and in a room with terrible modes, your $2000 speaker will sound the same as ~$250-500 speakers.

I dont think theres anything wrong with martin logans $1200 a piece speaker. It just may not be the speaker for your room. Ive never owned martin logans but have heard a 5.1 fresco system a few times.
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In before the thread lock.

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Your in room measurements look mighty impressive so you MUST be done driving yourself crazy, right?
Thanks. This time I drove myself to Florida and back.

Well, I can actually fall asleep down there with it on so that's progress. But still, there's a lil bit of ringing at 1.5k that I had been hearing and I see it in the waterfall graph. Then when rereading the reviews I posted, he also mentioned it.

So that's audiophilia, never completely happy and if I think I am, it won't be for long.
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In before the thread lock.
Great, what would you like to say?
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Bass needs room gain, and some speaker builders actually expect the speaker to be placed in a place that will give it room gain.

If youve ever done a subwoofer crawl the idea is the same. You could build an 18" subwoofer and place it in a terrible location and get lacking lows but decent bass above that, or you could place it and get boomy lows.

Most people do not prefer a flat sound reponse. This is why sound bars with a subwoofer and these small satalite speakers with a subwoofer sell so well, the highs and the lows are boosted and the mids arent really there. A studio monitor is designed to be FLAT from (example) 35hz-20khz. That does not mean when you plug it in it will be flat. If you place it in a corner you will get room gain from the low end. if you place it mid wall you will get no low end. Placement matters as well as room treatments. If martin logan claims its flat, and @Scotth3886 shows with his graph, they are pretty damn flat. Adding a subwoofer will boost the lows (back to what I said about people like boosted lows and highs, its a sound we like, it sounds "rich", boosted highs sound bright). But anyways, the need for the subwoofer, and the fact the subwoofer helps the sound, is still placement and room treatment related.

Lots of people have lots of money, yet they are too proud to get on the floor and crawl around lol. Or they go for form over funtion. Doesnt matter how much you spend on speakers, if you place them badly and in a room with terrible modes, your $2000 speaker will sound the same as ~$250-500 speakers.

I dont think theres anything wrong with martin logans $1200 a piece speaker. It just may not be the speaker for your room. Ive never owned martin logans but have heard a 5.1 fresco system a few times.

I'd still prefer a touch more roll-off in the lower treble and up. To do that requires me toeing them out a little more and then you start aiming that back wave more at you and its starts screwing with image specificity. Haven't quite figured this out yet.
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Great, what would you like to say?

Bose is better than ML

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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Bose is better than ML

Kewl boogers !
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Great, what would you like to say?
I've always enjoyed the soundstage of Martin Logans, have never owned them, have only heard them in showrooms on different occasions. I don't remember what was playing, but it probably wasn't rock. Fuzz boxes and wow-wow guitar to me doesn't much seem like good material to audition with, however when I bought my first pair of speakers, JBL L100 Century's in 1978 I was won over by the playing of Eagles "Life in the Fast Lane." My tastes have changed over the years, some rock still, some pop, some country pop, some jazz, but mostly classical, piano and cello, Brian Crain I'm listening to right now, but also Michele McLaughlin, Helen Jane Long, lots of others. Was blown away to tears last night listening to the sublime voice presence of Karen Carpenter on Tidal Master Audio playing to the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, works she never got to hear in her all too short life, as it was a compilation album released last year featuring original voice and instrumental tracks accompanied by new orchestral arrangements by the RPO.
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@Scotth3886 ,

When I posted that I honestly didn't know you owned ML's, and while I don't remember exactly what was playing on them those times I heard them, I was impressed. The soundstage was broad and beautiful, they were dynamic and full bodied. They were in a fairly large showroom as well, without subwoofer reinforcement, hardwood floor with large throw rug, a sofa, positioned in free space, about 6 feet or more away from boundaries. The imaging was pinpoint, instruments floated in space. They were powered by Krell amp, those are my recollections, they were really good. It was quite a few years ago but they left a lasting impression.
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Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
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