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post #121 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 04:34 AM
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Totally agree with emcdade and R Harkness. I owned a pair of Martin Logan Vistas for about two years and they just didn't do rock music well at all. Electric guitars in particular sound thin and tinny, no body. I also tried them in my Home Theater room and they don't do movies well either. Even a pair of 18" subs just don't compensate for their lack of upper bass/lower mid "weight".

But I did get into Jazz somewhat while owning the ML's whereas with the current speakers in my stereo rig (Zu and Tekton), Jazz just sounds downright piercing and annoying.

Well done to the OP for starting this thread, will hopefully save some progressive rock lovers like me and the wife some grief.
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post #122 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
And mine are in post 45 and yours?
Just out of curiosity what smoothing are you using on your graph? Also what distance from the speaker are you measuring?
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post #123 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bottlemech2 View Post
Just out of curiosity what smoothing are you using on your graph? Also what distance from the speaker are you measuring?

1/12th and MLP
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post #124 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by hardeng View Post
Totally agree with emcdade and R Harkness. I owned a pair of Martin Logan Vistas for about two years and they just didn't do rock music well at all. Electric guitars in particular sound thin and tinny, no body. I also tried them in my Home Theater room and they don't do movies well either. Even a pair of 18" subs just don't compensate for their lack of upper bass/lower mid "weight".

But I did get into Jazz somewhat while owning the ML's whereas with the current speakers in my stereo rig (Zu and Tekton), Jazz just sounds downright piercing and annoying.

Well done to the OP for starting this thread, will hopefully save some progressive rock lovers like me and the wife some grief.

Do you have room pics with the speakers?
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post #125 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I have never demoed panels. Is the listening window as narrow as everyone indicates?

If placed properly, no. If I'm directly in front of one of the panels within a couple of feet then the soundstage collapses to that panel. So I have a stage all over the room except at 90 degrees to the sides (figure 8 dipole radiation pattern) even from the back.
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post #126 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 06:59 AM
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Absolutely nothing will beat a pair of Klipsch La Scala's for delivering rock with the drive and impact it deserves. I owner a pair for 32 years, only gave them up cause they wouldn't fit in my retirement digs.
Funny those are the exact pair I was talking about. A friend of a friend had a pair and I spent 5 hours at his place playing music. His music (rock, 70's, 80's) sounded perfect but my Classical did not sound great. The funny thing was that he had sound Reel to Reel recordings from the radio way back in the day of CBC radio music with classical music and that sounded good. It gave me the feeling that I traveled back in time to the 1930's or 1940's.

I would never buy a pair but I recommend them to anyone that is into that music. You can find an old pair and fix them up or you can still buy them new.
If you want a sub with them you will need something really fast like a Rel as you DO NOT want to run any bass management as you want that 15" folded horn to play down to 51Hz at -4dB.
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post #127 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 07:11 AM
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I have never demoed panels. Is the listening window as narrow as everyone indicates?
Curved panels will do a lot better than flat in this regard i.e. ML vs. Maggies. This doesn't help with the severely limited vertical dispersion which, either by design or accident, manufacturers partially address by leaning the panels backwards.

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post #128 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 07:16 AM
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[QUOTE=Blacklightning;57458632]Funny those are the exact pair I was talking about. A friend of a friend had a pair and I spent 5 hours at his place playing music. His music (rock, 70's, 80's) sounded perfect but my Classical did not sound great. The funny thing was that he had sound Reel to Reel recordings from the radio way back in the day of CBC radio music with classical music and that sounded good. It gave me the feeling that I traveled back in time to the 1930's or 1940's.

I would never buy a pair but I recommend them to anyone that is into that music. You can find an old pair and fix them up or you can still buy them new.
If you want a sub with them you will need something really fast like a Rel as you DO NOT want to run any bass management as you want that 15" folded horn to play down to 51Hz at -4dB.

I like the pic, where is it from?
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post #129 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Curved panels will do a lot better than flat in this regard i.e. ML vs. Maggies. This doesn't help with the severely limited vertical dispersion which, either by design or accident, manufacturers partially address by leaning the panels backwards.

Which I thought might help me with regards to my low 7 1/2' ceilings down there. Rake angle adjusts soundstage height so vocals up there with trumpet, trombone, triangle, guitar down under the vocals. with alto sax, clarinet, etc and further down bari and bass sax, kicks, etc. Rake angle needed depends on how far the MLP is from the speakers.

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post #130 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 08:05 AM
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I like the pic, where is it from?
Just from the background on the official website.
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post #131 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:08 AM
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I have an opinion on these too, spent lots of listening time with the Klipsch LaScala; LOUD!!

The bass is not extended nor smooth, it hammers. The transients are powerfully amazing, but maybe not so good if you don't like the sound of brass instruments played through a police siren.

I still loved them, they were Steve McQueen cool. Everybody loved them for rock and disco. Paired with Phase Linear power amp, Technics SL25 turntable and Pioneer RT707 reel to reel.

My favorite takeaway from Dr. Toole's lecture, if you want good specs and information, buy a tire.

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Curved panels will do a lot better than flat in this regard i.e. ML vs. Maggies. This doesn't help with the severely limited vertical dispersion which, either by design or accident, manufacturers partially address by leaning the panels backwards.

I've seen the claims by ML for years that the curving of their panels helps widen the sweet spot. I have never found that to be the case. I mean, maybe it widens the sweet spot from what it would have been if they didn't curve the panels, but even with curved panels I find the sweet spot super narrow with even the slightest movements pushing the sound to one speaker or another. That's another reason I couldn't live with them. (The ESL 63s actually did better in this regard, as they were designed with concentric radiating rings to more mimic a point source. Still not as good at this as many dynamic speakers I've owned, though).
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post #133 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:21 AM
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As I've said many times, my door is open and google maps will easily get you here.

That's a generous offer. Thanks.


Though I think it would be even more generous of me to buy plane tickets so an AVS member can demo his speakers to me.
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post #134 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:30 AM
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I've seen the claims by ML for years that the curving of their panels helps widen the sweet spot. I have never found that to be the case. I mean, maybe it widens the sweet spot from what it would have been if they didn't curve the panels, but even with curved panels I find the sweet spot super narrow with even the slightest movements pushing the sound to one speaker or another. That's another reason I couldn't live with them. (The ESL 63s actually did better in this regard, as they were designed with concentric radiating rings to more mimic a point source. Still not as good at this as many dynamic speakers I've owned, though).
My recollections of the ML could honestly be flawed then because I distinctly remember a broad soundstage that seemed to float in space around, in front of and behind the speakers. If so, and I could be wrong but it seems contradictory; why should there even exist "a sweet spot?" Maybe it's the lack of a hot spot?

I also distinctly remember standing and walking around the room; I have no recollection of ever sitting down facing them in the middle. Maybe that's what I was missing. This was more like room sound. Or maybe I just got lucky to be standing in the sweet spot zone. I honestly don't know now.

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Pehaps I heard reverberant sound filling the hole in the center, or I just didn't notice it. This would be more than unfortunate I agree, but it's also new and added from the complaint you started with, that there was no "weight" to the sounds that weren't from the woofer, so it's obvious you were dissatisfied with them, and to struggle with placement would be worse.

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That's a generous offer. Thanks.


Though I think it would be even more generous of me to buy plane tickets so an AVS member can demo his speakers to me.
So I'll be happy to pick you up at the airport.
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post #137 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:48 AM
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Did Dr. Toole ever reveal what the "dangerously good $1,800" speakers were?

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post #138 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:50 AM
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My recollections of the ML could honestly be flawed then because I distinctly remember a broad soundstage that seemed to float in space around, in front of and behind the speakers. If so, and I could be wrong but it seems contradictory; why should there even exist "a sweet spot?" Maybe it's the lack of a hot spot?

I also distinctly remember standing and walking around the room; I have no recollection of ever sitting down facing them in the middle. Maybe that's what I was missing. This was more like room sound. Or maybe I just got lucky to be standing in the sweet spot zone. I honestly don't know now.
"a sweet spot"

I've also experienced this is the past where if you move you head from the MLP by a foot or so the stage collapses to one side. This time I have a stage virtually anywhere/everywhere in the room except for directly in front of one of the panels and by that I mean within a couple of feet and 90 degrees to the side. Definitely have it from behind. It's sort of like moving around to the side of the stage at Yoshi's (Oakland) where the sound stage shifts, but is still very much there
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post #139 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:53 AM
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Pehaps I heard reverberant sound filling the hole in the center, or I just didn't notice it. This would be more than unfortunate I agree, but it's also new and added from the complaint you started with, that there was no "weight" to the sounds that weren't from the woofer, so it's obvious you were dissatisfied with them, and to struggle with placement would be worse.

A narrow sweet spot has always been the issue with any electrostats. Part of how they radiate - more forward/directional, less to the sides. Like any narrow dispersion speaker that's helpful in a room because you can place them closer to a side wall with less sound sent to the side wall to bounce off and change the sound. So less "room effect" problems in that aspect. The trade-off in narrow dispersion is...the narrow dispersion. Your head has to be right where they are aiming. Movements to the side glom the sound to that speaker.


Of course the further you are from the system, say in a larger room, the more you are hearing both speakers playing and also the room effects, so this won't be noticeable. But with typical "sweet spot" listening, the sweet spot for pretty much any electrostatic, especially a big line source like the ML design, is quite narrow. As I find in practice.


This "shifty" quality to the tone and imagine of electrostatics is one reason I gravitate to speakers with wide even dispersion that maintain a consistent tonal balance, and to some degree some imaging, over a wider listening area (e.g. my Thiels with their coax design are good for this, my Waveform "egg-shaped" speakers perhaps even better, and of course my MBL omni-directional speakers even better).
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post #140 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 10:54 AM
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Did Dr. Toole ever reveal what the "dangerously good $1,800" speakers were?

I have little doubt that it's a Harman brand, probably Infinity in this instance, IIRC.
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post #141 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:01 AM
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A narrow sweet spot has always been the issue with any electrostats. Part of how they radiate - more forward/directional, less to the sides. Like any narrow dispersion speaker that's helpful in a room because you can place them closer to a side wall with less sound sent to the side wall to bounce off and change the sound. So less "room effect" problems in that aspect. The trade-off in narrow dispersion is...the narrow dispersion. Your head has to be right where they are aiming. Movements to the side glom the sound to that speaker.


Of course the further you are from the system, say in a larger room, the more you are hearing both speakers playing and also the room effects, so this won't be noticeable. But with typical "sweet spot" listening, the sweet spot for pretty much any electrostatic, especially a big line source like the ML design, is quite narrow. As I find in practice.


This "shifty" quality to the tone and imagine of electrostatics is one reason I gravitate to speakers with wide even dispersion that maintain a consistent tonal balance, and to some degree some imaging, over a wider listening area (e.g. my Thiels with their coax design are good for this, my Waveform "egg-shaped" speakers perhaps even better, and of course my MBL omni-directional speakers even better).

And of course I prefer limited dispersion to reduce, but not eliminate, crosstalk for better imaging.

I have no more sweet spot than I do with any conventional cone and dome monopole down there. It's even less of a factor when I sit very close in the V.
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post #142 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And of course I prefer limited dispersion to reduce, but not eliminate, crosstalk for better imaging.

I have no more sweet spot than I do with any conventional cone and dome monopole down there. It's even less of a factor when I sit very close in the V.
I’m starting to think Martin Logan sprinkled yours with magic fairy dust while the rest of us just got the shaft.
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post #143 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:15 AM
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I’m starting to think Martin Logan sprinkled yours with magic fairy dust while the rest of us just got the shaft.

Exactly who is "the rest of us"? Again, if you don't work with placement you might get what you got.

https://www.hometheatershack.com/for...er-review.html

https://www.hometheatershack.com/for...tml#post680654

Not quite sure about any "magic fairy dust" as I struggled pretty hard this time to get these right and not sure I'd do it again.
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post #144 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:16 AM
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And of course I prefer limited dispersion to reduce, but not eliminate, crosstalk for better imaging.

Sure, limiting the dispersion has it's benefits. Though I'm not sure about the "better imaging" per se. It can depend on what one thinks of as "better" imaging.
Some find size, depth and spaciousness to be "better imaging" some believe tighter precision of the location and density of images is "better" imaging.


Imaging has always been important to me, so the many speakers I've owned almost all have done great "disappearing" acts with great soundstaging and imaging. For sheer 3 dimensionality, the MBL omnis are peerless. And actually image with good precision. But the most impressive combination of soundstage size/depth, image size WITH a precision of imaging has come from my Thiel speakers, with their coax design and time/phase coherency. Imaging precision is a purported benefit of time/phase coherency and I can't speak to whether that technical claim is true. But I can say that nothing I've experienced images with the precision of the Thiels, the way they seem to take imaging that feels a bit spread out and smeared in most speakers, and lines everything up in to discrete, extremely palpable images.



I've listened to way too many panel speakers to recount, and never heard them do imaging precision to the degree some box speakers like the Thiels can pull off. And the Thiel design does it without limiting head-in-vice dispersion characteristics.


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I have no more sweet spot than I do with any conventional cone and dome monopole down there. It's even less of a factor when I sit very close in the V.

The very nature of limiting dispersion ENTAILS, by the very design, a narrower window in the sweet spot withing which the tonal and imaging balance is maintained. It's either narrow dispersion...with a more constricted sweet spot...or it's not.



Perhaps you are used to maintaining the right sweet spot, but the physics of speaker design and how we hear entails the MLs have a narrower sweet spot than wider dispersion designs (most often found in some box speaker designs).
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post #145 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:27 AM
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Sure, limiting the dispersion has it's benefits. Though I'm not sure about the "better imaging" per se. It can depend on what one thinks of as "better" imaging.
Some find size, depth and spaciousness to be "better imaging" some believe tighter precision of the location and density of images is "better" imaging.


Imaging has always been important to me, so the many speakers I've owned almost all have done great "disappearing" acts with great soundstaging and imaging. For sheer 3 dimensionality, the MBL omnis are peerless. And actually image with good precision. But the most impressive combination of soundstage size/depth, image size WITH a precision of imaging has come from my Thiel speakers, with their coax design and time/phase coherency. Imaging precision is a purported benefit of time/phase coherency and I can't speak to whether that technical claim is true. But I can say that nothing I've experienced images with the precision of the Thiels, the way they seem to take imaging that feels a bit spread out and smeared in most speakers, and lines everything up in to discrete, extremely palpable images.



I've listened to way too many panel speakers to recount, and never heard them do imaging precision to the degree some box speakers like the Thiels can pull off. And the Thiel design does it without limiting head-in-vice dispersion characteristics.





The very nature of limiting dispersion ENTAILS, by the very design, a narrower window in the sweet spot withing which the tonal and imaging balance is maintained. It's either narrow dispersion...with a more constricted sweet spot...or it's not.



Perhaps you are used to maintaining the right sweet spot, but the physics of speaker design and how we hear entails the MLs have a narrower sweet spot than wider dispersion designs (most often found in some box speaker designs).

"For sheer 3 dimensionality, the MBL omnis"

I've found the big ones (Extremes) to be a mess such as at AXPONA with a proper sound stage appx where it sound be with a duplicate of that soundstage hanging on the footballs. It's more realistic to a live small venue where you have the direct sound from the band/group and then a duplicate of that sound (summed to mono) emanating from the PA speakers at the edges of the stage. (this is why I won't go back to local live venue in Worthington, Natalie's Coal Fire Pizza. Great jazz artists there that the sound reinforcement ruins)

The smaller MBLs such as what was used in the Jolida room was fine, the big one though, I'd love to be able to give it a shot to see if I can get it

"Perhaps you are used to maintaining the right sweet spot, but the physics of speaker design and how we hear entails the MLs have a narrower sweet spot"

I'm not sure what I did in this room, but I'm not experiencing that as an issue

"do imaging precision to the degree some box speakers like the Thiels can pull off."

Some imaging is precise and some is defuse, depending what you're listening to. Large wood bodies instruments are more defuse and sound large such as cello, viola, piano, etc. Other instruments are more point source such as triangle, the bell of a trumpet, etc.

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post #146 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:29 AM
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Crosstalk is damaging to imaging, Scott is right about that. You can find support for this in Bob Carver's writings.

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The topic is Martin Logans. Bringing other speaker brands and models into the discussion to make a point derails the thread.

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post #148 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The topic is Martin Logans. Bringing other speaker brands and models into the discussion to make a point derails the thread.
I don't know, I have no dog in this fight.

I think that what Scott is asking for, a photo of the room where the OP placed his speakers as Scott believes placement is critical, is a reasonable request that has been refused.

The OP started an inflammatory thread and refuses reasonable requests for detail so, to me, the whole thread is a derail.

And a fail.
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post #149 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The topic is Martin Logans. Bringing other speaker brands and models into the discussion to make a point derails the thread.

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post #150 of 185 Old 01-18-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
I don't know, I have no dog in this fight.

I think that what Scott is asking for, a photo of the room where the OP placed his speakers as Scott believes placement is critical, is a reasonable request that has been refused.

The OP started an inflammatory thread and refuses reasonable requests for detail so, to me, the whole thread is a derail.

And a fail.

And I'm soon going to have to get back to work.
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