$10k Budget for 7.2.4 Speakers and Receiver - Please help - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 06:51 AM
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I know ive said this before but please if you can, build your own subs... you can even buy the flatpacks and all you'd have to do is basically glue them together... paint and supply the driver and a few other minor things. You'll come in way under budget going this route alone. Especially if you're purchasing 2 or more subs. 2 ultimax or 4vbss pa460 build and you've got a killer set of subs for under $800. The only thing you'd need is an amplifier which at most cost $500. Not only will you have a sub setup besting just about everything mentioned here... you'll have future expandability due to having a separate amplifier. At least give this option a look, you may think you can't do it, but I'd say it's all in your mind. I had my local HD guy cut the wood to my last build and it was done near perfect. He took his time measured and accounted for the blade and measured again. It is highly possibly that you can do this on your own.
I think we all appreciate that you're proud of your project and what you made.

Here's a link to the DIY forum where you can show others who also enjoy making their own speakers. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/
I know where to go to show my project...I was giving an alternate solution, just like you were. This is why I avoid forums sometimes cause ppl are toxic. If it doesn't adhere to their taste it's not relevant. The OP asked questions and we're all answering, giving specifics. I gave a specific and showed proof nothing more nothing less. My room is smaller than the OPs and we technically have the same budget. I demo'd numerous speakers from el cheapo to the somewhat expensive ones. Compared ID to branded to the DIY community. If I didn't get great deals on the set I selected i would've went the DIY route for my speaker setups. I looked up all the subs that was suggested to me...a lot are listed in this thread and compared them to the DIY route and came up with a resolution to DIY. I'm not loyal to any brand I'm loyal to my pocket/preference in this instance. All in all if the point is to give the OP options. The broader array of info he has the more sound of a decision he can make.
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post #92 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 08:25 AM
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I'm with Prestige. Spending the majority of your budget on a receiver and subwoofer(s) doesn't make sense. I like bass as much as the next guy. My last room had four DIY 15" subs. The most important speaker in your room is the center channel followed by your left and right surrounds. Then I would argue the subwoofer. Receiver technology changes way too fast to spend a huge portion of your budget, get something that meets your needs and doesn't break the bank and upgrade in 3 years when the latest room correction technology is out, HDMI version x, and some new amazing Dolby or DTS format is out.

I don't believe in breaking the bank on surrrounds either on a budget. Yes with an unlimited budget 7, 9, or 11+ speakers would all match and, ideally be identical. Your center channel would also be vertical and match your left and right fronts.

But in all things there are usually budgets and compromises. Also don't forget to treat the room. Room treatments can make or break a good speaker and you can take a $10K speaker in a bad room and it will sound worse than a $500 speaker in a properly treated room.

For the subwoofers, I personally think the Hsu VTF3-MK5 is the best bang for the buck. And I owned the Hsu VT15H MK2.

As for the Klipsch subs they don't get love here but they are actually pretty good subs (15" version) and if you can get them o a good deal it's not a bad option. But personally I like the ID subs as they offer more performance often for the same money.
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post #93 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 08:29 AM
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I know where to go to show my project...I was giving an alternate solution, just like you were. This is why I avoid forums sometimes cause ppl are toxic. If it doesn't adhere to their taste it's not relevant. The OP asked questions and we're all answering, giving specifics. I gave a specific and showed proof nothing more nothing less. My room is smaller than the OPs and we technically have the same budget. I demo'd numerous speakers from el cheapo to the somewhat expensive ones. Compared ID to branded to the DIY community. If I didn't get great deals on the set I selected i would've went the DIY route for my speaker setups. I looked up all the subs that was suggested to me...a lot are listed in this thread and compared them to the DIY route and came up with a resolution to DIY. I'm not loyal to any brand I'm loyal to my pocket/preference in this instance. All in all if the point is to give the OP options. The broader array of info he has the more sound of a decision he can make.
If the OP has any inclination I agree that DIY is a great way to go. Been there done that and will do it again. But it's not for everyone and, typically, DIY subs don't approach the finish level of a commercial sub. But if the OP is willing I agree with you DIY, hands down, offers he best bang for the buck. You can do a lot with $1K
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post #94 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 08:36 AM
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The Klipsch was a suggestion within the guy's budget. There are other sub manufacturers to go with. The Klipsch 15" subs in that room and with that budget are perfectly fine.
And in the same vein, one could say the GoldenEars are probably "perfectly fine". You assume that because he has a large room, that is "THX Ultra2 spec", that he needs speakers that can produce THX reference level. You never asked the guy what his output needs will be. Does he really need THX reference level?

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NOTE: This is where forums like this are super dangerous. You just tried to drop some sub knowledge.... and then said "Those Goldenears look good". It is amazing that someone cares about ultra low deep bass and SPLs.... and then thinks that on-wall mains with a couple of 4 1/2" woofers and an AMT tweeter are going to cut it in an over 3,200 cubic square foot room with 2 rows of seating. That would be AWFUL in a room that big. You will have huge gaps between LFE channels and the mains. That room is THX Ultra2 spec sized and you're saying 4 1/2" woofer on-walls look good? What..... the..... FFFFFFFFFFFF???????

Where is your head at here in saying those "look good"?
This is a hilarious piece of text. It is not at all incongruous to appreciate deep bass and think those speakers with extension as low as 50Hz would work. That is one of the things he should be looking for. The aforementioned deep bass will be handled by the subs EQ'd in mono. He just needs mains that can extend low enough to produce a proper crossover with them, and have efficiency and dispersion to fill the room - and those seem to fit the requirements better than on-wall speakers previously examined in the thread, based on the specs. And by the way, driver size is important, but it is naive to attack a speaker based solely on that - look at the overall system. If the efficiency and extension are there, clearly the driver size is suitable. If more SPL is not needed, increasing driver size would only hurt off-axis performance, which matters because that is the sound that gets reflected off the side walls. You want on and off-axis sound to match as closely as possible, and larger drivers tend to have narrower dispersion, making off-axis suffer.

Again, they look good on paper. I do not know how they sound. They could sound great or they could sound bad. The OP would need to investigate further.

Of course, on-walls in general are a compromise because of their slim design. I am under no illusions that they would compete with the floorstanding speakers mentioned previously. But with a $10k budget, there is just no way I could justify spending $7500 on the LCR. That does not leave enough for subs+AVR+surrounds+cables+etc.

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post #95 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 08:43 AM
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I didn't realize he was going to be playing the same 3 things at once on each screen without 3 different sources (cable boxes, for example)? If so, then he would need to use an external HDMI splitter. These are available to support 4K resolutions with EDID syncing between displays.
The impression I got was that there would be 3 different sources. Can the 6500 output 3 different sources to 3 screens? I don't know about that.

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The OP does not appear to have a "problem room" given his dimensions as long as he can choose proper sub placement - which should't be difficult.
Proper sub placement is crucial to achieving good bass, but so is EQ. And a system like Dirac or ARC is not just beneficial in "problem rooms". Any room will change the sound of a speaker. The goal should be to undo some of that effect, which smooths response, improves imaging and dialogue clarity, and other things.

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post #96 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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The impression I got was that there would be 3 different sources. Can the 6500 output 3 different sources to 3 screens? I don't know about that.


Proper sub placement is crucial to achieving good bass, but so is EQ. And a system like Dirac or ARC is not just beneficial in "problem rooms". Any room will change the sound of a speaker. The goal should be to undo some of that effect, which smooths response, improves imaging and dialogue clarity, and other things.
Guys, I was off for 2 days and wow...First, I wanted to thank all of you guys posting here. I truly appreciate it. Second (and this is not pointed at any one person specifically), there is no need to get aggressive or "toxic". I do enjoy the back and forth honest discussions and it helps me understand all the issues a little more. In my previous home I had built my own Music Home Studio and I spent months with a group that specialized in studio design working on designing my control room and subsequently recording/Vocal rooms dimension as this was by far the most important variables. When I moved recently, I was sad to see all that work gone....and I am now just trying to figure out where can I put all my hi-end outboard gear currently in storage. I already sold my SSL AWS 48 channel to help move to my new house... so it will be a while before I have my studio back and running again.

But in the meantime (as my #1 hobby is slowly dying) I wanted to build a "descent" HT. I clearly do not have the 1/20th of the $ I spent with my home studio over the years, so I am not expecting miracles.

While we do want to have 2 rows of seating, I really don't care too much about the 2nd Row. That would be for overflow during parties for watching Football/Soccer or for Kids and friends to watch movies with us. The most important seats will be in the 1st Row. Where wife and I will be 90% of the time watching Movies.

As the musician that I am, I would also like to and plan to watch Music Concerts in the HT room (from Jazz to Prog Metal, I like everything). So a system that also allows me to enjoy the music while watching the concert would be great.

I have zero brand loyalty. In my studio I had my favorites of course, but that is a different animal. Given my top notch acoustics in my old detached home studio, my old pair of 90's Yamaha NS10s sounded amazing when mixing (I had 4 diff monitors).

My HT room now is what it is. BTW, I do not NEED to use the other 2 TVs with this HT system. I will likely only have the main 75" panel and a future 4k projector for a 2:35 large screen as the 2 HDMI outputs from the receiver/processor. The other 2 TVs are simply for extra live games (football/soccer) where there is no need for sound OR for when my son is playing Fortnite with 2 of his buddies. IN this case, they are all wearing headsets anyway.

As far s DYI, I no longer have the time to do this. I've built about a dozen guitars in my old shop, but I no longer have the equipment/materials and most important, TIME, to DYI. Just don't have it. So unfortunately not an option for me.

In regards to Budget, $10k is the budget, but I can stretch $2K or so if there is a huge upside. I sold my SSL desk for dozens of thousands of $ and the deal w the wife was that I would keep a portion of it for the HT.... So I should be able to negotiate $1k or $2.5k if needed...

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post #97 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 09:51 AM
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Have you thought about scraping the TV altogether (put in another room) and going with a projector and acoustically transparent screen? It solves a lot of issues.
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post #98 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 09:56 AM
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And in the same vein, one could say the GoldenEars are probably "perfectly fine". You assume that because he has a large room, that is "THX Ultra2 spec", that he needs speakers that can produce THX reference level. You never asked the guy what his output needs will be. Does he really need THX reference level?


This is a hilarious piece of text. It is not at all incongruous to appreciate deep bass and think those speakers with extension as low as 50Hz would work. That is one of the things he should be looking for. The aforementioned deep bass will be handled by the subs EQ'd in mono. He just needs mains that can extend low enough to produce a proper crossover with them, and have efficiency and dispersion to fill the room - and those seem to fit the requirements better than on-wall speakers previously examined in the thread, based on the specs. And by the way, driver size is important, but it is naive to attack a speaker based solely on that - look at the overall system. If the efficiency and extension are there, clearly the driver size is suitable. If more SPL is not needed, increasing driver size would only hurt off-axis performance, which matters because that is the sound that gets reflected off the side walls. You want on and off-axis sound to match as closely as possible, and larger drivers tend to have narrower dispersion, making off-axis suffer.

Again, they look good on paper. I do not know how they sound. They could sound great or they could sound bad. The OP would need to investigate further.

Of course, on-walls in general are a compromise because of their slim design. I am under no illusions that they would compete with the floorstanding speakers mentioned previously. But with a $10k budget, there is just no way I could justify spending $7500 on the LCR. That does not leave enough for subs+AVR+surrounds+cables+etc.
^ This is all so precious I don't know where to start.

1: You have little to no practical experience with what you're talking about. You're theory crafting. Which is fun and all, but you're doing so with someone else's money and no substantial real world experience to back it up. Not with the products I listed, nor even with some of them you yourself are recommending or commenting on.

What's next? Going to a medical advice forum and guessing at how to change someone's scrips?

2: You're just being argumentative for argument sake. For whatever reason (it's obviously PRIDE) you're still standing on the idea that the 4 1/2" woofer compliment in those Golden Ear on-walls is fine in a 3,200+ cubic foot room with a projection screen and 2 rows of seating.

Why not just say "I didn't spend the time to look up those speakers before I recommended them. Those won't work well in that situation" ? That would make more sense than your conjecture above. Because.... THOSE SPEAKERS WON'T WORK WELL IN THAT APPLICATION.

3: Adorably, earlier in this thread you stated that you doubted Klipsch's manufacturer claim of specs on the sub. You gave no real experience with or basis for the statement or anything. Just that, to suit your narrative, you had doubts. But now, you're all in on believing the Golden Ear manufacturer's spec you just quoted. Again, having no experience with it at all (I doubt you even looked up the specs until I pointed out they wouldn't work). You're just trying to suit your narrative. It's a bad narrative.

4: While the mains I listed MSRP at $7,500.... The system had an MSRP of around $15,000 and I stated that it's possible to get that for $10,000 with a dealer who is willing to work with the guy. So, your statement on that is also a swing and a miss.

Story time should be over at this point.
I think it would be better for the OP and topic to stop with the guesses, story telling, theory crafting, and personal pride crap and actually talk about, you know, real life and real world hands on experience with the equipment people are recommending instead of being butt hurt.

Obviously I've been quite terse, but I didn't crap on anyone's equipment or attack them personally. Butt hurt people with personal pride in their gear took offense to me saying the sub budget was out of whack and then started spouting out BS. As a professional, I cannot, in good conscience, sit here and let the OP read nonsense.

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post #99 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you thought about scraping the TV altogether (put in another room) and going with a projector and acoustically transparent screen? It solves a lot of issues.

Yes, but I lost that battle when we moved in....
I am going with a projector and AT screen. But the TV wall with the 3 TVs will stay. This was the compromise at my house. I can get my Large motorized Screen as long as the 3 TVs for Gaming stay there....Besides, I do like Sat/Sun having 3 tvs showing different Football/Soccer games.

Unfortunately this set up created this constraint on my HT. I can either have LCR speakers around the 75" TV panel with the 2 50" TVs further out Or have the Center channel under TV and squeeze the TVs together to put the L and R front mains to the right of each 50" TV.
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post #100 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 11:28 AM
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Just realized I prob wont be able to go for the 2 x FV18s. Didn't realize how much of a monster those Subs were size wise. My 3 TVs on the wall are set up at roughly -39-40 inches from the Floor. Those subs will barely fit in those front wall corners height wise. I could put them both in the back corners, but I'm not sure if this would be appropriate. If not, then I will need to scale it down to two 15's.
You should be able to lay them on their sides no problem.
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post #101 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 11:43 AM
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Yes, but I lost that battle when we moved in....
I am going with a projector and AT screen. But the TV wall with the 3 TVs will stay. This was the compromise at my house. I can get my Large motorized Screen as long as the 3 TVs for Gaming stay there....Besides, I do like Sat/Sun having 3 tvs showing different Football/Soccer games.

Unfortunately this set up created this constraint on my HT. I can either have LCR speakers around the 75" TV panel with the 2 50" TVs further out Or have the Center channel under TV and squeeze the TVs together to put the L and R front mains to the right of each 50" TV.
I love dual setups like what you're describing and think that your idea is going to turn out really nice.

Either option for placement could work, but (my two cents) would be that option 2 would sound the largest, unless the LEFT & RIGHT speakers are going to be right up against the corners of the room? If that's the case, perhaps you would want to bring them in some?

Maybe you can save some more width if you can put the two smaller TVs in the L & R corners mounted at an angle in towards the seating? This would allow for a bigger screen while still keeping the 50s available to be used when the projector is in use as well as wider placement of the left & rights. Center under the 75" is fine. Haven't seen the room. Just brainstorming.
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post #102 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 12:07 PM
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3: Adorably, earlier in this thread you stated that you doubted Klipsch's manufacturer claim of specs on the sub. You gave no real experience with or basis for the statement or anything. Just that, to suit your narrative, you had doubts. But now, you're all in on believing the Golden Ear manufacturer's spec you just quoted. You're just trying to suit your narrative. It's a bad narrative.
Nope, try again. I pulled the numbers directly from the imagic review that you posted.

We also know the performance of the other subs in question. Those are published and represent proper CEA-2010 measurement methods. The Klipsch claim of 122dB is outright misleading and can not be compared to the way other reputable ID companies measure and publish their specs.

There is enough data to peg the Klipsch as having roughly the same output as those mentioned in my previous post. It is the way they advertise their specs that I take issue with.

I do not understand why you are so desperate to argue with me about this.

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again, having no experience with it at all (I doubt you even looked up the specs until I pointed out they wouldn't work).
Again, no. I checked the specs before posting. Try reading my posts fully where I said that since the specs seem to meet the criteria, they deserve further investigation, at the least. I made no claims as to how they sound.

But you can't simply compare driver size. There is much more nuance in speaker design and that is only one parameter.

With 92dB efficiency, they would require a 64 watt amp to reach 95dB of output at a generous distance of 4 meters, leaving 3dB of headroom on the amp. With that, and extension down to 60 or 50Hz depending on the model, they should mate well to subs with a crossover between 80-100Hz, while being plenty strong to fill the room to levels that may cause the wife to make him sleep in the garage. So, check out reviews and see what people think of their sound.

You're just being argumentative for argument's sake.
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Unlike a lot of marketing professionals and ID companies that lurk these forums as sock puppets trying to steer people towards their brands and products. THAT absolutely happens!
Not sure I agree.

While the owners of Ascend, Philharmonic Audio, PSA and Selah are reasonably active on here I really don't see any of them pushing anyone one here towards their products; it seems to be their customers that do that.

I don't own any of their products but those that have bought them seem more often than not genuinely pleased and PSAs would seem the only one of those brands that might meet the OPs needs unless the industiral look of the speakers is off putting.

As to the very good Klipsch subs you are recommending my only concern was early amp failures reported by owners in the sub section.

Looking at high end theater rooms shown on AVS your recommendation for higher mounting when dealing with numerous rows of seats seems to be on point.

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post #104 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 01:09 PM
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Unlike a lot of marketing professionals and ID companies that lurk these forums as sock puppets trying to steer people towards their brands and products. THAT absolutely happens!
Not sure I agree.

While the owners of Ascend, Philharmonic Audio, PSA and Selah are reasonably active on here I really don't see any of them pushing anyone one here towards their products; it seems to be their customers that do that.

I don't own any of their products but those that have bought them seem more often than not genuinely pleased and PSAs would seem the only one of those brands that might meet the OPs needs unless the industiral look of the speakers is off putting.

As to the very good Klipsch subs you are recommending my only concern was early amp failures reported by owners in the sub section.

Looking at high end theater rooms shown on AVS your recommendation for higher mounting when dealing with numerous rows of seats seems to be on point.
What I said regarding ID companies definitely doesn't represent all or even the majority of them. The companies you mentioned have excellent reputations and make some really nice products. I've had clients have them on occasion and they are generally happy.

SVS, on the other hand, is a prime example of using sock puppets on forums and were outed by Audioholics a few years ago. And we definitely don't need to talk about AV123! I find it awful to do that to people.

- Amp failures are NO GOOD for sure. I will search for that info and ask my Klipsch rep about that. Personally, I have not had any issue with any that I have done, but I didn't buy any when they first came out, either. I tend to wait in new models unless it's a refresh. Same with cars. I don't tend to buy one the first model year or two. Let the bugs get worked out.

I recommended thenKlipsch because I felt that it fit a sweet spot in terms of value with that system. Especially with a discount. There are lots of great sub $1k subs for sure!

I would never knowingly recommend something with a track record of being unreliable. Reliability is #1 above all else, IMO.

I'm still a dealer, but haven't given Onkyo a shot again since the plague of HDMI issues. DISASTER! Occasionally a bad batch of something pops up, but vendors need to own it, correct it, and be upfront.

I should order an RZ model to see what those new pieces are all about.
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post #105 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I love dual setups like what you're describing and think that your idea is going to turn out really nice.

Either option for placement could work, but (my two cents) would be that option 2 would sound the largest, unless the LEFT & RIGHT speakers are going to be right up against the corners of the room? If that's the case, perhaps you would want to bring them in some?

Maybe you can save some more width if you can put the two smaller TVs in the L & R corners mounted at an angle in towards the seating? This would allow for a bigger screen while still keeping the 50s available to be used when the projector is in use as well as wider placement of the left & rights. Center under the 75" is fine. Haven't seen the room. Just brainstorming.
The Room is 15'5" wide. I re-measured it and The Bottom of the 3 TVs are 33" from the floor.
If I squeeze the TVs towards the center leaving no gaps between the TVs I will have 16'.6" of Space between each End TV and the Wall. Assuming the Speakers at most 8-9" wide I should be able to place them wide and adjust them in as needed without compromising the side TVs too much.
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post #106 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 01:52 PM
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The Room is 15'5" wide. I re-measured it and The Bottom of the 3 TVs are 33" from the floor.
If I squeeze the TVs towards the center leaving no gaps between the TVs I will have 16'.6" of Space between each End TV and the Wall. Assuming the Speakers at most 8-9" wide I should be able to place them wide and adjust them in as needed without compromising the side TVs too much.
Perhaps this has been mentioned already but these easy to return at Best Buy Klipsch towers might be a good starting point for you to try.

Very dynamic and are said to be an improvement on the prior RP series which was very well received on AVS.

10-15/16"W x 43-1/8"H x 17-9/16"D

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RP8...00F-Ebony.html

Smaller version:

9-3/8"W x 39-5/8"H x 17-1/16"D

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch...?skuId=6239517

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post #107 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
While bass is the hardest thing to get right in any room, it is incorrect and ridiculous to say that most of a budget should be spend on subs with a $10k budget. What do you mean "That is known." By whom is that known or to whom is that some sort of system design rule of thumb? On super Entry level, budget oriented systems I can understand where a strong sub budgetary % would be critical as a cheap sub could be detrimental and distracting. But, the Klipsch 15 (playing down to 18hz - 110db at 20hz) isn't some dumpy POS. You're speaking as if it's some $300 Sony 8" Best Buy junk.

The 13% of the budget I referenced was only the DIFFERENCE between the two different subs cost. The Rhythmics would be 28% of the system's $10,000 budget for an 11.2 channel system + receiver. That is out of whack and a waste of $ because you have to sacrifice the quality of the 11 other speakers to come in at or under budget.

Servo subs have been around decades and are nothing new. Some companies use that design with great result, and others don't with great result. Servo isn't some silver bullet magical sub tech.

Please explain why the Klipsch speakers will "chuffed insanely loud" and it's "distortion would be off the charts". This needs fleshed out and explained or else you're just parroting things you've heard or read on forums or marketing pieces.

Avsforum did a review on it here https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.avs...w.html%3famp=1

There are a ton of great subs out there, but at some point the bass is going to be correct for the room and you appropriate dollars to other portions of the system. Everyone values different things, however, right? I mean, some guys have car stereos worth a disproportionate amount to the cost of their car. They aren't wrong for doing so. It's their car. It takes different kinds to make the world go round.
Here is why the Rythmik FV15HP is most definitely worth the price increase over the Klipsch sub.

Per CEA2010 testing, the Klipsch produces 99.7 dB at 20 Hz. So a SINGLE FV15HP has more output at 20 Hz than two Klipsch subs. MORE than double the output at the lower, hardest and costliest to reproduce frequencies, where it really matters for home theater. Due to the lackluster 20 Hz output rating, the output at 16Hz would be an even much larger difference compared to the FV15HP. This is a VERY tactile frequency range on the MANY action movies that have content in this range. Heck, the FV15HP has almost as much output at 12.5 Hz as the Klipsch has at 20. Thats a MONSTROUS difference in clean output capability. One that will make an incredibly drastic difference in the movie experience on action flicks.
FV15HP @ 12.5 Hz: 98.5 dB 2m RMS
Klipsch @ 20 Hz: 99.7 dB. 2m RMS
FV15Hp @ 20 Hz: 108.3 Hz. +8.6 dB, or almost triple output. Almost 50 % more output than both Klipsch subs combined.

The Klipsch are cheaper, I agree. But nowhere close to being in the same league. More than double the output for a 13% cost difference....sounds like a bargain.

Maybe the Fv15Hps eat up too much of the OP's budget. Maybe not. But if they do, I'd go with the Hsu VTF3.5's, as they also will nearly double the performance of the Klipsch if you feel the need to keep the cost of subs a good bit lower.
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post #108 of 197 Old 01-21-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Perhaps this has been mentioned already but these easy to return at Best Buy Klipsch towers might be a good starting point for you to try.

Very dynamic and are said to be an improvement on the prior RP series which was very well received on AVS.

10-15/16"W x 43-1/8"H x 17-9/16"D

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RP8...00F-Ebony.html

Smaller version:

9-3/8"W x 39-5/8"H x 17-1/16"D

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch...?skuId=6239517
That's a good recommendation for home theater. These combined with the matching center will give him of room for nice subs, receiver, etc.
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An 8.6 db advantage at 20 hz is massive as pointed out by bear. As I'm sure everyone knows if you mutually couple 2 indentical powered subs (either stacked or side by side) you would get roughly a 6 db gain.

I was going to post a comparison between the Klipsch and Rythmic from data bass but had to chuckle when I saw that Josh hasn't even messed with measuring the Klipsch.

So... 2 percent of content in movies is that low? Maybe if you are watching nothing but romantic comedies. Pretty much all action/suspense/thriller/whatever movies will have plenty of content that low, and even if it's rolled of significantly you can buy your self a minidsp 2x4 HD for 200 bucks and get all that bass content back by checking out the BEQ thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html

Before the days of BEQ (started years ago on data bass) tons of us were running house curves so that even filtered movies had nice output down to the single digits, nevermind the 20's. Even without any boosting down low bass in the 20's is very easy to come by in movies. I would steer clear from advice from anyone that says differently.

There have been countless threads arguing the benifits of single digit bass, but no one, and I mean no one, argues that bass in the 20's (and teens too) isn't extremely important.

-disclaimer-

I almost never use such a snarky posting style, but browsing through this thread some posts I read were pretty condescening - which is fine - as long as they are accurate - which they weren't.
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post #110 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Here is why the Rythmik FV15HP is most definitely worth the price increase over the Klipsch sub.

Per CEA2010 testing, the Klipsch produces 99.7 dB at 20 Hz. So a SINGLE FV15HP has more output at 20 Hz than two Klipsch subs. MORE than double the output at the lower, hardest and costliest to reproduce frequencies, where it really matters for home theater. Due to the lackluster 20 Hz output rating, the output at 16Hz would be an even much larger difference compared to the FV15HP. This is a VERY tactile frequency range on the MANY action movies that have content in this range. Heck, the FV15HP has almost as much output at 12.5 Hz as the Klipsch has at 20. Thats a MONSTROUS difference in clean output capability. One that will make an incredibly drastic difference in the movie experience on action flicks.
FV15HP @ 12.5 Hz: 98.5 dB 2m RMS
Klipsch @ 20 Hz: 99.7 dB. 2m RMS
FV15Hp @ 20 Hz: 108.3 Hz. +8.6 dB, or almost triple output. Almost 50 % more output than both Klipsch subs combined.

The Klipsch are cheaper, I agree. But nowhere close to being in the same league. More than double the output for a 13% cost difference....sounds like a bargain.

Maybe the Fv15Hps eat up too much of the OP's budget. Maybe not. But if they do, I'd go with the Hsu VTF3.5's, as they also will nearly double the performance of the Klipsch if you feel the need to keep the cost of subs a good bit lower.
Sir,

HA! Per CEA-2010 Testing the Klipsch as 108.7db of output at 20hz where the FV15 has, per your numbers, sir..... less @ 108.3. I provide a link below. However, since you didn't provide one I cannot compare...

Where did you get your numbers at? I believe they are grossly off. I will provide a link to the numbers with CEA2010 Testing on the Klipsch R115-SW. First page, just below the graph https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsc...viewed/?page=2

NOTE: You went politician on everyone and quoted CEA-2010 and then provided traditional spec instead. #FAKENEWS ? Everything you wrote comparing the two is essentially a lie or, at the very least, misinformation after that. Thanks for the time, though.

I get that you love deep bass as indicated by your own system with 2 18" woofers combined with $200 bookshelf speakers. For the, oh, I don't know.... 5th time in this thread, I was in no way saying that other subs were inferior to the Klipsch sub or that the Klipsch was a better performer. Only that it (or other subs in that price range) would be the best choice for this room and this budget.

I stand by the fact that the differences between the subs on the highest fringe ends of performance (because, that is what you are talking about here) is not worth the difference in cost on a $10,000 budget due to the fact that it would take too much budget away from the other 11 speakers causing significant performance concessions there. Those differences in mains and surrounds would be significant in terms of quality and output where the differences in subs would be relatively minor to insignificant.

I stand by my original recommendation with a massive grin and a double face palm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
An 8.6 db advantage at 20 hz is massive as pointed out by bear. As I'm sure everyone knows if you mutually couple 2 indentical powered subs (either stacked or side by side) you would get roughly a 6 db gain.

I was going to post a comparison between the Klipsch and Rythmic from data bass but had to chuckle when I saw that Josh hasn't even messed with measuring the Klipsch.

So... 2 percent of content in movies is that low? Maybe if you are watching nothing but romantic comedies. Pretty much all action/suspense/thriller/whatever movies will have plenty of content that low, and even if it's rolled of significantly you can buy your self a minidsp 2x4 HD for 200 bucks and get all that bass content back by checking out the BEQ thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html

Before the days of BEQ (started years ago on data bass) tons of us were running house curves so that even filtered movies had nice output down to the single digits, nevermind the 20's. Even without any boosting down low bass in the 20's is very easy to come by in movies. I would steer clear from advice from anyone that says differently.

There have been countless threads arguing the benifits of single digit bass, but no one, and I mean no one, argues that bass in the 20's (and teens too) isn't extremely important.

-disclaimer-

I almost never use such a snarky posting style, but browsing through this thread some posts I read were pretty condescening - which is fine - as long as they are accurate - which they weren't.
Someone talking about accurate posting and "wouldn't take advice from" should probably check his sources and do the homework himself, right? Because, if not.... crow tastes pretty awful I hear.....

His numbers were grossly wrong and misstated. I provided a link above correcting him. Because it was so gratifying, I'll do it again and stick that right here for you https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsc...viewed/?page=2 For the disinclined: Per CEA2010 testing the Klipsch sub actually has MORE output at 20hz than the FV15. 108.7 (Klipsch) to 108.3 (FV15).

Everything you posted after that regarding performance comparison I will just put in the files somewhere between "Useless" and "Commenting from theory based off of misinformation - taken on the word of others, BTW - and not experience".

For the 3rd time in this thread.... Ultra low bass like what you're taking about is a teeny tiny... as in, like, a thimble full compared to an ocean... amount of content in a movie soundtrack. When compared to main speaker output above 80hz or, keeping the topic on subwoofers, bass 20hz and above the content is a fraction of a % of time throughout a movie soundtrack - romantic comedy or not.

^ Any difference in output between the two @20hz would be minor.

Major sacrifice of the quality of the main loudspeakers to achieve ultimate deep bass performance is a niche market and desire. I would never say that ultimate performance isn't cool or interesting. But, often times, it isn't worth the sacrifice. In this case... NO WAY.

Feel free to get as snarky as you would like. The people disagreeing with me and taking some great offense to my pointing out that the subs were out of whack to the budget - not that they were bad products, mind you, but that they too much of a budgetary sacrifice to the mains based on OP's requirements - have all struck out with either: Lies, misinformation, and/or nonsense (4 1/2" woofers in an on wall for a 3,2000+ cubic foot room... pffffft!).

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post #111 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 01:06 AM
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TO THE OP: I will refrain from posting in your thread any further as it has seemed to derailed and invited bass fanatics to take offense at what they perceived as tugging at one of their superhero's capes. You're trying to get a killer system, have a great budget, and are looking for different ideas to pull it off within your unique requirements. I have no desire to keep posting the same rebuttals to the same people giving incorrect info and advice.

I'm sure it seems like I'm a jerk, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I only get involved in threads that are interesting to me or where I see dangerous advice or misinformation being given. Your project was interesting and you provided a lot of info to work with, so I posted a suggestion to look at and people took exception. It was upsetting to me as a professional to see the (all over the map) advice you were getting from people who have very little idea or experience as to what they're taking about when it comes to what you were describing you needed for a system.

As mentioned above, I'll not be posting to any more responses in this thread as it has just derailed into goofy talks of CEA measurements and subwoofer minutiae. If you want any further input or advice from me, feel free to PM me. Happy to help should you need it! I hope that others will keep throwing out ideas in thread for you to consider as well.

Best of luck!
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post #112 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
Sir,

HA! Per CEA-2010 Testing the Klipsch as 108.7db of output at 20hz where the FV15 has, per your numbers, sir..... less @ 108.3. I provide a link below. However, since you didn't provide one I cannot compare...

Where did you get your numbers at? I believe they are grossly off. I will provide a link to the numbers with CEA2010 Testing on the Klipsch R115-SW. First page, just below the graph https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsc...viewed/?page=2

NOTE: You went politician on everyone and quoted CEA-2010 and then provided traditional spec instead. #FAKENEWS ? Everything you wrote comparing the two is essentially a lie or, at the very least, misinformation after that. Thanks for the time, though.

I get that you love deep bass as indicated by your own system with 2 18" woofers combined with $200 bookshelf speakers. For the, oh, I don't know.... 5th time in this thread, I was in no way saying that other subs were inferior to the Klipsch sub or that the Klipsch was a better performer. Only that it (or other subs in that price range) would be the best choice for this room and this budget.

I stand by the fact that the differences between the subs on the highest fringe ends of performance (because, that is what you are talking about here) is not worth the difference in cost on a $10,000 budget due to the fact that it would take too much budget away from the other 11 speakers causing significant performance concessions there. Those differences in mains and surrounds would be significant in terms of quality and output where the differences in subs would be relatively minor to insignificant.

I stand by my original recommendation with a massive grin and a double face palm.




Someone talking about accurate posting and "wouldn't take advice from" should probably check his sources and do the homework himself, right? Because, if not.... crow tastes pretty awful I hear.....

His numbers were grossly wrong and misstated. I provided a link above correcting him. Because it was so gratifying, I'll do it again and stick that right here for you https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsc...viewed/?page=2 For the disinclined: Per CEA2010 testing the Klipsch sub actually has MORE output at 20hz than the FV15. 108.7 (Klipsch) to 108.3 (FV15).

Everything you posted after that regarding performance comparison I will just put in the files somewhere between "Useless" and "Commenting from theory based off of misinformation - taken on the word of others, BTW - and not experience".

For the 3rd time in this thread.... Ultra low bass like what you're taking about is a teeny tiny... as in, like, a thimble full compared to an ocean... amount of content in a movie soundtrack. When compared to main speaker output above 80hz or, keeping the topic on subwoofers, bass 20hz and above the content is a fraction of a % of time throughout a movie soundtrack - romantic comedy or not.

^ Any difference in output between the two @20hz would be minor.

Major sacrifice of the quality of the main loudspeakers to achieve ultimate deep bass performance is a niche market and desire. I would never say that ultimate performance isn't cool or interesting. But, often times, it isn't worth the sacrifice. In this case... NO WAY.

Feel free to get as snarky as you would like. The people disagreeing with me and taking some great offense to my pointing out that the subs were out of whack to the budget - not that they were bad products, mind you, but that they too much of a budgetary sacrifice to the mains based on OP's requirements - have all struck out with either: Lies, misinformation, and/or nonsense (4 1/2" woofers in an on wall for a 3,2000+ cubic foot room... pffffft!).
My post regarding the two subs was respectful and fact based. Now read yours.

Now, again, I will post respectfully and accurately regarding your lack of comprehension of the data posted on the two subs.

First off, subwoofer output is reported two ways. 1m peak output, and 2 m rms output. There is a 9 dB difference between the two. RMS to peak is a 3 dB difference with peak being reported 3 dB higher. Second, every doubling of distance reduces output by 6 dB. So going from 1m to 2m reduces SPL by 6 dB. This accounts for the 9 dB difference between 1mPeak and 2m rms numbers. Both ways of reporting the data are 100% accurate and not misleading or fake in any way. It is simply a mathematical adjustment. If you will read back through the factual, accurate post I made, you will see that I clearly stated the output numbers as the 2m RMS numbers.

My post is accurate, and I included enough info so that there would not be any confusion or misunderstanding regarding mix matched data sets between 1m peak or 2m rms.

Your response to my post is incorrect. And again, read through what you wrote regarding your posting style, especially considering you are wrong.

I am also open minded enough to make another suggestion in regards to keeping the sub budget lower if the OP decides that is in his best interest. Although my suggestion didn't match yours regarding the Klipsch, I did offer an option that performs substantially better for a small increase in cost. I believe good speakers are important as well. The modest priced bookshelf speakers I use play clean and dynamically in my room at my listening levels, and although they aren't the best speakers made by any means, they perform admirably for what they are and, coupled with good room correction and capable subs, offer a quite excellent all around performance. Thanks for your opinion on them though.

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post #113 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
Sir,

HA! Per CEA-2010 Testing the Klipsch as 108.7db of output at 20hz where the FV15 has, per your numbers, sir..... less @ 108.3. I provide a link below. However, since you didn't provide one I cannot compare...

Where did you get your numbers at? I believe they are grossly off. I will provide a link to the numbers with CEA2010 Testing on the Klipsch R115-SW. First page, just below the graph https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsc...viewed/?page=2

NOTE: You went politician on everyone and quoted CEA-2010 and then provided traditional spec instead. #FAKENEWS ? Everything you wrote comparing the two is essentially a lie or, at the very least, misinformation after that. Thanks for the time, though.

I get that you love deep bass as indicated by your own system with 2 18" woofers combined with $200 bookshelf speakers. For the, oh, I don't know.... 5th time in this thread, I was in no way saying that other subs were inferior to the Klipsch sub or that the Klipsch was a better performer. Only that it (or other subs in that price range) would be the best choice for this room and this budget.

I stand by the fact that the differences between the subs on the highest fringe ends of performance (because, that is what you are talking about here) is not worth the difference in cost on a $10,000 budget due to the fact that it would take too much budget away from the other 11 speakers causing significant performance concessions there. Those differences in mains and surrounds would be significant in terms of quality and output where the differences in subs would be relatively minor to insignificant.

I stand by my original recommendation with a massive grin and a double face palm.




Someone talking about accurate posting and "wouldn't take advice from" should probably check his sources and do the homework himself, right? Because, if not.... crow tastes pretty awful I hear.....

His numbers were grossly wrong and misstated. I provided a link above correcting him. Because it was so gratifying, I'll do it again and stick that right here for you https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsc...viewed/?page=2 For the disinclined: Per CEA2010 testing the Klipsch sub actually has MORE output at 20hz than the FV15. 108.7 (Klipsch) to 108.3 (FV15).

Everything you posted after that regarding performance comparison I will just put in the files somewhere between "Useless" and "Commenting from theory based off of misinformation - taken on the word of others, BTW - and not experience".

For the 3rd time in this thread.... Ultra low bass like what you're taking about is a teeny tiny... as in, like, a thimble full compared to an ocean... amount of content in a movie soundtrack. When compared to main speaker output above 80hz or, keeping the topic on subwoofers, bass 20hz and above the content is a fraction of a % of time throughout a movie soundtrack - romantic comedy or not.

^ Any difference in output between the two @20hz would be minor.

Major sacrifice of the quality of the main loudspeakers to achieve ultimate deep bass performance is a niche market and desire. I would never say that ultimate performance isn't cool or interesting. But, often times, it isn't worth the sacrifice. In this case... NO WAY.

Feel free to get as snarky as you would like. The people disagreeing with me and taking some great offense to my pointing out that the subs were out of whack to the budget - not that they were bad products, mind you, but that they too much of a budgetary sacrifice to the mains based on OP's requirements - have all struck out with either: Lies, misinformation, and/or nonsense (4 1/2" woofers in an on wall for a 3,2000+ cubic foot room... pffffft!).

I have been on this sight for a couple of years now, and have never seen anything like what you've displayed on this thread. It's absolutely disgusting. You have got to be the most closed minded, CONDESCENDING individual that I've EVER witnessed on these forums.

Also, the traditional numbers that you're taking issue with, are for RMS (continuous) @ 2M. The ones that you are quoting are for Peak @ 1M. The 2M testings ARE the more practical numbers, given that fact that most people, at least the ones that have half a brain, are not going to be running their subs at max, continuously. If they did, their subs would burst into flames and die.

BTW, here's your link with the same 2M testing on the Rythmik. The numbers are shown on Post #6 : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...t-results.html

If you'd like, I can also provide a link for the HSU as well.

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post #114 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
Sir,

HA! Per CEA-2010 Testing the Klipsch as 108.7db of output at 20hz where the FV15 has, per your numbers, sir..... less @ 108.3. I provide a link below. However, since you didn't provide one I cannot compare...
FYI...you're comparing peak/1m #'s (Klipsch 108.7) to RMS/2m #'s (FV15 108.3). You can check the link in my previous post for verification.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
I stand by the fact that the differences between the subs on the highest fringe ends of performance (because, that is what you are talking about here) is not worth the difference in cost on a $10,000 budget due to the fact that it would take too much budget away from the other 11 speakers causing significant performance concessions there. Those differences in mains and surrounds would be significant in terms of quality and output where the differences in subs would be relatively minor to insignificant.
The speakers you recommended have 4 tweeters and based on the specs linked are flat to 40kHz, close to two octaves above the range of human hearing. Why would you pay for flat response to 40kHz and an exotic 4-tweeter design when you are on a budget and looking at subs that probably have an F3 point at or above 20Hz and more distortion than subs that cost about 15-20% more?

Moreover, I could not find any published specs online showing on an off axis response or explaining how the sensitivity ratings of the speaker you recommended were measured (I suspect they were measured installed or 1/2 space and not full space because of the size of the woofers). Absent blind testing, it is tough evaluate a speaker without on and off axis measurements or an explanation of the sensitivity-test parameters.

Even assuming the speakers you recommend measure flat and accurate on and off axis and meet published sensitivity specs full space, you can certainly find flat, accurate, less "exotic" speakers that meet output requirements for less than $2500 a pop, and still get the cleaner, fuller bass provided by the Rhythmik subs. (The FV15s are nowhere near the highest fringe of performance, by the way, bit even within the Rhythmik line up.) Going this route would not be an "asinine" system-design decision.

Finally, the heat you are drawing in this thread isn't because of your recommendations or system priorities necessarily, its because you are labeling as "asinine" anyone with a different view of system priorities.

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post #116 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 11:36 AM
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Another tall and powerful option for the OP.

Size HxWxD = 50" x 11" x 16"

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/coll...ducts/mtm-210t
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post #117 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Another tall and powerful option for the OP.

Size HxWxD = 50" x 11" x 16"

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/coll...ducts/mtm-210t
Oh, I like that. 11" wide is not too bad either. And he could get some PSA subs while he is at it
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post #118 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Another tall and powerful option for the OP.

Size HxWxD = 50" x 11" x 16"

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/coll...ducts/mtm-210t

Thank you gajCA!

How would this compare to the Sierra Towers + Horizon for the Front end?

Despite the higher sensitivity on the 210t, the previous thread comparing the two brought their respective fan bases en masse to the thread...with the OP keeping the Sierras after testing them....I wont be able to run through those tests like he did....Best I will be able to do is audition them locally.

I'm not planning on crazy listening volumes...(at least when the wife is in the house) :-) so would the increased efficiency benefit me on any other way?
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post #119 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by crgzimbabwe View Post
Thank you gajCA!



How would this compare to the Sierra Towers + Horizon for the Front end?



Despite the higher sensitivity on the 210t, the previous thread comparing the two brought their respective fan bases en masse to the thread...with the OP keeping the Sierras after testing them....I wont be able to run through those tests like he did....Best I will be able to do is audition them locally.



I'm not planning on crazy listening volumes...(at least when the wife is in the house) :-) so would the increased efficiency benefit me on any other way?

Increased efficiency would mean you would need zero amplifier power to get them going at Reference levels. Your phone could probably power them

Raal tweeters are very detailed and musical.

PSA’s are very “forceful” and will provide lots of impact and enjoyment to your movies. Also quite musical. Really up to looks and what you really want out of your system.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #120 of 197 Old 01-22-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post

Everything you posted after that regarding performance comparison I will just put in the files somewhere between "Useless" and "Commenting from theory based off of misinformation - taken on the word of others, BTW - and not experience".

For the 3rd time in this thread.... Ultra low bass like what you're taking about is a teeny tiny... as in, like, a thimble full compared to an ocean... amount of content in a movie soundtrack. When compared to main speaker output above 80hz or, keeping the topic on subwoofers, bass 20hz and above the content is a fraction of a % of time throughout a movie soundtrack - romantic comedy or not.



Got me. I have no experience in these matters whatsoever.

I just hope the OP doesn't listen to you for his own sake. He has up to a 12 grand budget for speakers/subs/AVR and you recommend Klipsh with 15" drivers for subs? For shame sir.

Whatever experience you have - when it comes to subs - is poor to quite poor.
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