Borresen Acoustics Owners Thread... The Next Level - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post
Well I forgot to mention one time Lars came to my home to demo the V2 cables my son was in a different room not wanting to bother us. He knew Lars and my dealer over but he no idea that Lars even brought cables. After the first power cord swap from the original Ceramic to the prototype Aluminum V2 cable my son came into the room and asked what happened because the music sounded richer/fuller. That's when he saw a suitcase full of various cables. So I guess you can say that was a blind comparison. BTW my son was 38 or 39 yrs old at that time. And I'll admit his hearing is better than mine too.



Yesterday he came over for the first time since getting the 03's and he commented how much better they sounded that the D3.1's. He doesn't know I have the Supreme power cord. It's hard too see and I didn't tell him. So that may also be a factor as to why he may like the 03's better too.


Getting back to the science or specifications they can't convey how something may sound. Or even if it will be a sound I like. Everyone has their personal idea of what sounds good.
Just a few questions:
  • Are cables intended to be used as tone controls?
  • Is it more important to recreate the sound experience as the artist intended, or to be most enjoyable to the listener?
  • Where does "science" end and "belief" begin?
And a comment:
  • Specifications are the realm or the marketing department. Measurements are the realm of the engineering department.

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post #62 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 09:47 AM
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Seriously, with no disrespect, this is a science forum, and science doesn't give a crap how much money is spent on a system, it can't change physics -- money can't change the science that allowed (unfortunately, usually, less well heeled) scientists to develop the technology behind the gear (but hey, pay the marketing / business departments dearly).

So, I won't begrudge anyone spending money how they want. But, don't come on here and try to convince us without double blind tests that you have a superior ear-brain-interface to the rest of the world -- it's insulting. Want to wax ecstatic about your cables, go elsewhere. Think power cords make a difference, take it up with another echo-chamber. We have science on our side, you know that thing that allows us to reproduce sound at all! That thing that actually defines how signals travel in a cable...that thing, lol.
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post #63 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 09:57 AM
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Seriously, with no disrespect, this is a science forum, and science doesn't give a crap how much money is spent on a system, it can't change physics -- money can't change the science that allowed (unfortunately, usually, less well heeled) scientists to develop the technology behind the gear (but hey, pay the marketing / business departments dearly).

So, I won't begrudge anyone spending money how they want. But, don't come on here and try to convince us without double blind tests that you have a superior ear-brain-interface to the rest of the world -- it's insulting. Want to wax ecstatic about your cables, go elsewhere. Think power cords make a difference, take it up with another echo-chamber. We have science on our side, you know that thing that allows us to reproduce sound at all! That thing that actually defines how signals travel in a cable...that thing, lol.
First sentence of your post then you proceed to disrespect. Lol I’m guessing you “scientist” don’t believe in God either.
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post #64 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 10:11 AM
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First sentence of your post then you proceed to disrespect. Lol I’m guessing you “scientist” don’t believe in God either.
Let's take that to another forum all-together. And, if you feel I'm speaking disrespectfully then I'm sorry. I meant no disrespect; hence the first sentence, lol. I am just stating my opinion, maybe I do so more brashly than others.


I also didn't mean to imply I was a scientist. But, I am a software engineer, so I certainly align myself closer to the science of the issue than those that take an emotional stance, unable to accept that our eye-brain interface biases what our ear-brain interface perceives.
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post #65 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 10:14 AM
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First sentence of your post then you proceed to disrespect. Lol I’m guessing you “scientist” don’t believe in God either.
Let's take that to another forum all-together. And, if you feel I'm speaking disrespectfully then I'm sorry. I meant no disrespect; hence the first sentence, lol. I am just stating my opinion, maybe I do so more brashly than others.


I also didn't mean to imply I was a scientist. But, I am a software engineer, so I certainly align myself closer to the science of the issue than those that take an emotional stance, unable to accept that our eye-brain interface biases what our ear-brain interface perceives.
No worries. I like this response much better. 👍
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post #66 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 12:59 PM
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Well I forgot to mention one time Lars came to my home to demo the V2 cables my son was in a different room not wanting to bother us. He knew Lars and my dealer over but he no idea that Lars even brought cables. After the first power cord swap from the original Ceramic to the prototype Aluminum V2 cable my son came into the room and asked what happened because the music sounded richer/fuller. That's when he saw a suitcase full of various cables. So I guess you can say that was a blind comparison. BTW my son was 38 or 39 yrs old at that time. And I'll admit his hearing is better than mine too.



Yesterday he came over for the first time since getting the 03's and he commented how much better they sounded that the D3.1's. He doesn't know I have the Supreme power cord. It's hard too see and I didn't tell him. So that may also be a factor as to why he may like the 03's better too.
The not uncommon, "even my wife could hear the difference from the next room!" type of anecdote seems like a plausible example to lend support to a belief of a legitimate audible difference. But there is a reason why these types of anecdotes aren't taken seriously. It in part relates to cues being either consciously or unconsciously delivered under such circumstances. This has been well-understood for some time.

Take your first example. Your son was aware of the presence of Lars and your dealer. It need not have been consciously communicated that they were likely present to change something related to your system; swapping out cables, or an amp, or making some other system change, vs. simply dropping by for a visit. As such, your son was primed for the possibility of change and so he heard one. Furthermore, swapping out of one piece of equipment for the same piece of equipment (but unknown to the listener) can often result in the listener thinking that the sound had changed, despite nothing haven't been changed at all. So it's really not unusual for someone to perceive an audible difference even when nothing has been changed at all or if the change is a swap from one identically measuring cable to another.

Reminds me of another story. There was a short-term member of this forum several years ago. A European vinyl enthusiast who had member gatherings. At one, he wanted to put to the test that when using some of the better equipment for both digital and vinyl systems, most of the members would prefer the vinyl. It wasn't a rigorous test by any means, just something to do for fun and to his mind, the result of these comparisons would be an obvious preference for vinyl by all or most who participated. Video was even taken of the entire event.

What caught my eye during the video was that this guy would leave the room for the digital demonstration, staying for only short periods of time. On the other hand, when the vinyl system was being played, he came into the room, sat down on a sofa and hung around for much longer, with a big grin on his face.

Now I'm sure he didn't do any of this consciously to influence other members. But these are the types of complicating and confounding factors which demonstrate the necessity for controls if you want something approaching a reliable outcome.
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post #67 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 05:42 PM
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I don't care what any science believers think. My goal is to hear music the way I like it. Disagree and I don't care. It's my money and more importantly my ears. I don't think there are any 2 people that will totally agree on everything. If you want to put your your money on scientific analysis more power to you. You will never convince me otherwise. Bummer isn't it?? I trust my ears and bank account only. I want to hear what I like not what anyone thinks is more correct including the artist. Iv'e been to too many concerts that sounded like dog dropping compared to studio recordings. I've also heard studio recordings that sounded as bad. Honestly if you want to hear a good concert go see Trans Siberian Orchestra. Great from highs to lows. Very close to their cds. BTW most engineers like to compress the recordings into total garbage.


You Can either agree or disagree with me. I don't care.
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post #68 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 07:44 PM
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I don't care what any science believers think. My goal is to hear music the way I like it. Disagree and I don't care. It's my money and more importantly my ears. I don't think there are any 2 people that will totally agree on everything. If you want to put your your money on scientific analysis more power to you. You will never convince me otherwise. Bummer isn't it?? I trust my ears and bank account only. I want to hear what I like not what anyone thinks is more correct including the artist. Iv'e been to too many concerts that sounded like dog dropping compared to studio recordings. I've also heard studio recordings that sounded as bad. Honestly if you want to hear a good concert go see Trans Siberian Orchestra. Great from highs to lows. Very close to their cds. BTW most engineers like to compress the recordings into total garbage.

You Can either agree or disagree with me. I don't care.
All good, but on the flip side of the coin, we don't care either and this forum aligns with our perspective being a science forum and all. So, why are you here again?

Incoming rant -- not entirely directed at you, but...man I have to vent.

I honestly don't understand how folks can throw science under the bus. Without all the real scientists (i.e., not like those who sell and create snake-oil, backed by junk-science at best) we'd have no speakers, no amplifiers, no transistors, no tubes, no capacitors -- nothing! All those things, invented by people who absolutely must have believed in science, and someone has the audacity to deny the principles those folks had to learn (or just be gifted enough to naturally understand) to create said things? All the while benefiting from them! Not only that but somehow being so arrogant as to assume they know more because their ears say so? COME ON!?!? It's impossibly confusing to me.

It's one thing to admit that your ears are flawed, you have no clue how anything you use works, you don't care, and you like what you have. That's foolish, lazy, probably wasteful of a lot of money, and not how I roll, but at least acceptable. It's an entirely different thing to denounce the people who made it all possible by saying something completely ridiculous like "my power cable made my system sound so much better and I don't care what science says because I'd rather trust my ears". The only way that's possible is if your previous cable was seriously deficient. Fortunately, scientists figured out what makes a cable effective. If they didn't, our houses wouldn't have electricity because the many kilowatts required couldn't efficiently be moved from the power-plant to our residences. We know how cables work! If we didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation over the internet, because the high frequency signals transmitting it wouldn't make it over the wire without being destroyed. So, someone that thinks it takes thousands of dollars to transmit an audio signal transparently over a few feet, ugh, I mean seriously...ugh!

So, yeah, I put my money on science because without it I wouldn't be sitting here typing on a computer, wasting my time with a forum, while I watch a movie with my daughter. In fact, if the world were full of folks who practiced no or junk-science, I'd probably be running away from predators or out collecting my next day's twigs and berries. And whenever I ate a berry I could die, because every time someone died from a berry we'd believe they were smited, never figuring out the berry caused it. Why? Because science and the scientific method is what gives us the ability to understand cause and effect.

Maybe that's what we should do with all the science deniers in the world -- deny them the very science that allows them to survive without hunting, gathering, and slaying an animal for its pelt to stay warm while they do it. Idiots! Toss 'em all on an island to fend for themselves without the last few thousand years of technological advancements, brought to you by, GUESS WHO? SCIENTISTS!

P.S. As I said, this wasn't entirely directed at you. I'm by no means implying you're a science denier in all walks of your life. I don't know you. But, it drives me absolutely bat-crap crazy that so many people today just accept and believe junk-science. IMO, it's because the real science has become too complex for many of us to understand. But, regardless, it drives me absolutely nuts! The microcosm of the world that is audiophilia is just one place it manifests, but it's running rampant, and I seriously have a hard time standing it any more. So, I'm venting here, and I...sort-of...apologize if it offends anyone. But if it does, maybe it's a "shoe-fits" thing and you should use your brain a little harder.
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post #69 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 08:17 PM
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All good, but on the flip side of the coin, we don't care either and this forum aligns with our perspective being a science forum and all. So, why are you here again?

Incoming rant -- not entirely directed at you, but...man I have to vent.

I honestly don't understand how folks can throw science under the bus. Without all the real scientists (i.e., not like those who sell and create snake-oil, backed by junk-science at best) we'd have no speakers, no amplifiers, no transistors, no tubes, no capacitors -- nothing! All those things, invented by people who absolutely must have believed in science, and someone has the audacity to deny the principles those folks had to learn (or just be gifted enough to naturally understand) to create said things? All the while benefiting from them! Not only that but somehow being so arrogant as to assume they know more because their ears say so? COME ON!?!? It's impossibly confusing to me.

It's one thing to admit that your ears are flawed, you have no clue how anything you use works, you don't care, and you like what you have. That's foolish, lazy, probably wasteful of a lot of money, and not how I roll, but at least acceptable. It's an entirely different thing to denounce the people who made it all possible by saying something completely ridiculous like "my power cable made my system sound so much better and I don't care what science says because I'd rather trust my ears". The only way that's possible is if your previous cable was seriously deficient. Fortunately, scientists figured out what makes a cable effective. If they didn't, our houses wouldn't have electricity because the many kilowatts required couldn't efficiently be moved from the power-plant to our residences. We know how cables work! If we didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation over the internet, because the high frequency signals transmitting it wouldn't make it over the wire without being destroyed. So, someone that thinks it takes thousands of dollars to transmit an audio signal transparently over a few feet, ugh, I mean seriously...ugh!

So, yeah, I put my money on science because without it I wouldn't be sitting here typing on a computer, wasting my time with a forum, while I watch a movie with my daughter. In fact, if the world were full of folks who practiced no or junk-science, I'd probably be running away from predators or out collecting my next day's twigs and berries. And whenever I ate a berry I could die, because every time someone died from a berry we'd believe they were smited, never figuring out the berry caused it. Why? Because science and the scientific method is what gives us the ability to understand cause and effect.

Maybe that's what we should do with all the science deniers in the world -- deny them the very science that allows them to survive without hunting, gathering, and slaying an animal for its pelt to stay warm while they do it. Idiots! Toss 'em all on an island to fend for themselves without the last few thousand years of technological advancements, brought to you by, GUESS WHO? SCIENTISTS!

P.S. As I said, this wasn't entirely directed at you. I'm by no means implying you're a science denier in all walks of your life. I don't know you. But, it drives me absolutely bat-crap crazy that so many people today just accept and believe junk-science. IMO, it's because the real science has become too complex for many of us to understand. But, regardless, it drives me absolutely nuts! The microcosm of the world that is audiophilia is just one place it manifests, but it's running rampant, and I seriously have a hard time standing it any more. So, I'm venting here, and I...sort-of...apologize if it offends anyone. But if it does, maybe it's a "shoe-fits" thing and you should use your brain a little harder.
What part of I don't give a rats behind what you or anyone else thinks. I only care what my ears like. Go ahead and buy against your beloved scientific data and enjoy what you have. Maybe you didn't understand me before but it's my ears and bank account. Have a nice night.
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post #70 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 09:02 PM
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What part of I don't give a rats behind what you or anyone else thinks. I only care what my ears like. Go ahead and buy against your beloved scientific data and enjoy what you have. Maybe you didn't understand me before but it's my ears and bank account. Have a nice night.
I don't care what your ears like nor how much you spent. But, I care when you spew rubbish in a forum having the specific opposite goal!

I "understand" you perfectly. I don't comprehend how you have such a closed mind that you can't even admit that the science behind all the gear you love so much is pretty darn convincing in its evidence against cables (that aren't acting like tone-controls, either by design or deficiency in specification for the job, for which there exists significantly cheaper devices based on similar principles to do the same frugging thing) mattering and very, very, clear in the evidence that expectation bias is a real thing.

And, less you think I have a closed mind, I don't. I follow evidence, and if the evidence changes, so will I -- that's how science works! I'm all for hypothesis and proper testing to see if new evidence can be mustered. Science changes, and I realize that, but while I may be able to admit that cables can have a difference, I can also see the degree of difference they can make and understand what causes it and know where the line of diminishing returns lies. And, when you consider both state-of-the-art measuring gear and the science of human hearing, the great thing, for prudent, knowledgeable, folks like me, who'd rather spend their money on things that actually matter, is it's well before the stupid-factor kicks in with mega-buck, snake-oil, cables!

Good night to you, too. Enjoy your system, it's what we're all here for. But, maybe, just maybe, take your non-science views somewhere else and, when you participate here, know your audience. Certainly you can say what you want, but if I took to the audiophile boards to proselytize science I'd expect to be rebuked. You should, too, over here.

That said, I guess I shant waste any more effort on you, it's obvious you can't be converted. Maybe one day you'll thank the real scientists that make this life we live, and the awesome tech we get to play with, possible. In the meantime, at least stop besmirching their names with crazy-talk on a science board? It's in poor form at the very least and, at worst, outright ignorant and disrespectful.
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post #71 of 122 Old 04-28-2019, 11:16 PM
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Gawd some of you Audio wannabe scientists need to get a life. You take it way over the top too seriously.

It’s frigging audio gear. Not a life support system.
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post #72 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 03:54 AM
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Gawd some of you Audio wannabe scientists need to get a life. You take it way over the top too seriously.

It’s frigging audio gear. Not a life support system.
But without scientist there would be no life support. Lol. You can’t like something if the scientific data doesn’t support it. You all should know this as a meme er of AVS. The S is for science. If you don’t like that then you should go to another forum. Lol. These guys are too much with nonsense like that. I’ll agree with the above. Just chill it’s audio gear. Have fun with it. I’m sure there is some scientific data to show you how to enjoy life a bit more.
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post #73 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 09:18 AM
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Audio Video Science

Well for all you Science guys and gals I joined this site for the Audio part. I'm not into video and the science part of this forum. Like I said many times I enjoy music and the way it sounds to me and not anyone else. I don't care what scientific measurements/data show for audio. They don't tell me the way it sounds. If someone buys an audio system based on scientific measurements/data good for them. If anyone wants to list for me the Speakers cables amps sources that have the best scientific measurements/data I would like to see them. No limit on cost either.
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post #74 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 09:27 AM
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Same here George, although I do enjoy video too.It seems odd that the science crowd are trying to take over The Borrenson speaker thread for some reason, very rarely do they pop up on the Dynaudio thread.

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post #75 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 10:15 AM
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Probably looking for threads that they haven't been to yet
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post #76 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 11:50 AM
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I'm not trying to take anything over, y'all are too full of yourselves. You think I give a rats rump about you and what you listen to? I don't. What I do care about is the pollution of science by imbeciles that is running rampant in today's world. I'm sorry I bring that frustration to these threads, but I can't help it. The pure stupidity that makes a person disregard science because "my ears, my ears" drives me nuts as it's just an extension of the overall climate that is science bashing.

Worse, it's regarding something so bloody simply that we've understood well for...phew, a long time. It may have taken a while for the semi-conductor industry (and other industries like materials science, for example) to catch up and bring the technology to the masses at reasonable prices, but many of the principles everything is based on are old as dirt, well understood, and not evolving. Do you really think there will be some break-through where scientists stand up and say, "oh crap, these guys have been right all along, if we just did xyz to our cables they'd be so much more transparent?"

Heck, on the audio side, I don't even know what the next big break-through could be. We've pretty much got it down. I suppose we could work on the analog side more, since at this point the digital noise floor is below what our analog signal-chain can muster. But, I doubt anyone cares, because most rooms have a noise floor well above what the gear does, so there's no real good reason to go there. But, I guess that's why snake-oil jerks have to continue to "revolutionize" their cables, because there's nothing really happening but marketing to fools with more money than scientific knowledge. Money that could be better spent elsewhere in the world than giving it to liars and cheats. But, hey, I guess as long as everyone sleeps at night, right....

Ugh, whatever, I'm done, I'll hand you back your audiofool echo-chamber, y'all aren't worth my time. Plus, this is a Borrensen thread, not a cables thread, and I suppose I shouldn't have taken it this far here because it's not the right place. My frustration gets the better of me sometimes. Plus, I remember where I am and wonder why it's always OK for the audiophool people to come on here and preach their stupidity, but if we go over there we get treated even worse than you do here (and we're the ones whose principles made the gear possible, the irony)! I'm just trying to even the score, lol.

Maybe for every one of the posts y'all make here, I should create an account on a new audiophile board you like and start preaching science everywhere. How long before I get banned from them all? But you'll still have your platform here to spew foolish garbage. And worse, you want to do it unchecked, and think I should go away. Admittedly I should chose the place I post in better, and maybe this thread wasn't it, but if not here, where? The countless threads dedicated to proving the statements made here-in are crazy? The ones y'all don't read or care about? I should, then, let members be misled in all the other threads, on a forum that promotes science? Sorry, can't do that. If I see B.S., I call B.S.. I may not always be right, but this time, I am, and I have a ton of evidence to back me. Y'all have...your broken ears that probably don't hear over 14khz anyway, lol. I think I win.
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post #77 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 11:52 AM
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These clowns don't realize that this forum is basically a subset of an A/V retailer called AVScience...https://avscience.com/....lol....nothing to do with actual science.
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post #78 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 12:37 PM
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These clowns don't realize that this forum is basically a subset of an A/V retailer called AVScience...https://avscience.com/....lol....nothing to do with actual science.
Dude says he’s not trying to take over and doesn’t care yet continues to post these long manifesto type responses ranting about people not respecting science or something. It’s too much fun at this point just getting these ridiculous responses from him. Lol.
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post #79 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 12:47 PM
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Dude says he’s not trying to take over and doesn’t care yet continues to post these long manifesto type responses ranting about people not respecting science or something. It’s too much fun at this point just getting these ridiculous responses from him. Lol.
Sure would have liked to see a list of the most perfect systems using scientific measurements/data. Oh well
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post #80 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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I was going to take myself of this thread like y'all wanted, but here you are teasing me like you have the high ground. But, don't you worry, I and people like me will keep using science to make the world a better place, while y'all contribute...well, I don't know what exactly -- projecting stupidity into the world? Well done, it makes me feel great to know I share the planet with fools who are happy to perpetually remain fools.
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Sure would have liked to see a list of the most perfect systems using scientific measurements/data. Oh well
Stupid statement -- there is no "perfect" for everyone. But, if we measured your hearing acuity and your system in-room then I wonder if the story those data-points tell would be revealing of your preferences and allow us to recreate them for another individual. Heck, possibly even with a much lower budget. It'd also mean you could recreate your system with a lower budget, and wouldn't that be nice? I mean, if you actually care about sound and not bragging how much you've spent on your system, anyway. If you could have your sound for less, wouldn't that make you happy? Maybe science will make that possible if you'd just give in to it, lol. Think of what you could do with all the money you get from selling your gear to the less informed audiophile ilk.

Naw, I get it, though, your wallet is big enough you don't have to do that! Us science-y folk are just mad because you have such a big wallet -- isn't that pretty much what you implied? Though, let me tell you, my wallet isn't exactly small, either. I just chose to use my A/V money more wisely so all the money I don't waste on, say, exotic cables, can go to better things. It certainly won't go to shysters selling cables for more than my Porsche is worth (not even for more than my phone is worth, lol), that's just financially irresponsible when you know the science behind things.

But, I know, your money, your wallet, you don't want to hear it, you love wasting money, but you don't feel it's a waste, bla bla bla -- you're going to deny science indefinitely and trust your pathetically inept and easily tricked ears and never be capable of recognizing how foolish it is. I know, I know -- you and your brethren are hopeless.

On that note, I'm going to pop off my clown nose and get some work done. Glad to have entertained y'all -- pity, it wasn't my goal, but...whatever works.
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post #81 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 02:53 PM
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Why is this an either-or proposition?

I don't understand why people pit engineering vs. subjective listening against each other, as if they are mutually exclusive. Those who rely exclusively on specs & measurements and won't try anything that doesn't have a positive DBT result to back it up are really missing out on a lot of the listening pleasure that high end audio can provide. But at the same time, I think people who try to move forward using only their ears and equipment swapping are also missing out on potential improvements, especially when it comes to room setup, subwoofer setup (if applicable) and room acoustics.

I'm bemused by George's refusal to spend any money on acoustic consulting, considering the level of equipment he's working with. If you're really into chasing the best sound quality you can get (and not just gear flipping), I would think you'd want to optimize all aspects of your system, and not intentionally leave an area of potential improvement unexplored. To me, it's the same as buying a lot of expensive equipment and then wiring it all with Home Depot cables.

Besides, why are you even in a thread about speakers that you have no interest in? Do you periodically search the forums for discussions of expensive cables to jump in on?
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post #82 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 04:48 PM
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I was going to take myself of this thread like y'all wanted, but here you are teasing me like you have the high ground. But, don't you worry, I and people like me will keep using science to make the world a better place, while y'all contribute...well, I don't know what exactly -- projecting stupidity into the world? Well done, it makes me feel great to know I share the planet with fools who are happy to perpetually remain fools.

Stupid statement -- there is no "perfect" for everyone. But, if we measured your hearing acuity and your system in-room then I wonder if the story those data-points tell would be revealing of your preferences and allow us to recreate them for another individual. Heck, possibly even with a much lower budget. It'd also mean you could recreate your system with a lower budget, and wouldn't that be nice? I mean, if you actually care about sound and not bragging how much you've spent on your system, anyway. If you could have your sound for less, wouldn't that make you happy? Maybe science will make that possible if you'd just give in to it, lol. Think of what you could do with all the money you get from selling your gear to the less informed audiophile ilk.

Naw, I get it, though, your wallet is big enough you don't have to do that! Us science-y folk are just mad because you have such a big wallet -- isn't that pretty much what you implied? Though, let me tell you, my wallet isn't exactly small, either. I just chose to use my A/V money more wisely so all the money I don't waste on, say, exotic cables, can go to better things. It certainly won't go to shysters selling cables for more than my Porsche is worth (not even for more than my phone is worth, lol), that's just financially irresponsible when you know the science behind things.

But, I know, your money, your wallet, you don't want to hear it, you love wasting money, but you don't feel it's a waste, bla bla bla -- you're going to deny science indefinitely and trust your pathetically inept and easily tricked ears and never be capable of recognizing how foolish it is. I know, I know -- you and your brethren are hopeless.

On that note, I'm going to pop off my clown nose and get some work done. Glad to have entertained y'all -- pity, it wasn't my goal, but...whatever works.
Of course there is no perfect system but was curious what you have based on your scientific data/measurements. Some on here may find it amusing or maybe informative. Also don't worry about my money. I don't worry about your Porsche even though it's just a vehicle to get from point A to point B. Granted it may be more fun to drive than my lowly Toyota but I get to where I'm going just like you.


OK the Ansuz cables have 1/2 the inductance than a Nordost Odin2 which do you know that inductance robs your amp of power when needed? The D-TC dithers away noise just like the Navy's submarines use to clearly hear a ping from hundreds of miles away. But I guess to you that means nothing in audio. As far as the Borresen speakers they use a iron free magnet structure to eliminate the varying impedance that iron creates with motor structures. Coupled with a super light cone structure the transients are electrostatic like but with the dynamics like a conventional box speaker. That's all the science know regarding these products.


It would still be interesting what your system consists of. I find it amusing cable deniers refuse to mention their systems. A system doesn't have to be expensive to sound good but I personally find spending more can make it sound great.



Like DrewTT said go over here and stay there please to peddle your science

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post #83 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 04:57 PM
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Why is this an either-or proposition?

I don't understand why people pit engineering vs. subjective listening against each other, as if they are mutually exclusive. Those who rely exclusively on specs & measurements and won't try anything that doesn't have a positive DBT result to back it up are really missing out on a lot of the listening pleasure that high end audio can provide. But at the same time, I think people who try to move forward using only their ears and equipment swapping are also missing out on potential improvements, especially when it comes to room setup, subwoofer setup (if applicable) and room acoustics.

I'm bemused by George's refusal to spend any money on acoustic consulting, considering the level of equipment he's working with. If you're really into chasing the best sound quality you can get (and not just gear flipping), I would think you'd want to optimize all aspects of your system, and not intentionally leave an area of potential improvement unexplored. To me, it's the same as buying a lot of expensive equipment and then wiring it all with Home Depot cables.

Besides, why are you even in a thread about speakers that you have no interest in? Do you periodically search the forums for discussions of expensive cables to jump in on?
Red I have the most bizarre room you've probably ever seen. I really have no where to hang absorption or diffusion panels let alone bass traps. My back wall is 4 different depths. My ceiling is vaulted for 16ft (8 to 14ft high) before dropping to a soffit then a standard 8ft ceiling height. Someday maybe but I would want to try them first.
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post #84 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 05:30 PM
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Why is this an either-or proposition?

I don't understand why people pit engineering vs. subjective listening against each other, as if they are mutually exclusive. Those who rely exclusively on specs & measurements and won't try anything that doesn't have a positive DBT result to back it up are really missing out on a lot of the listening pleasure that high end audio can provide. But at the same time, I think people who try to move forward using only their ears and equipment swapping are also missing out on potential improvements, especially when it comes to room setup, subwoofer setup (if applicable) and room acoustics.
Because it is an either-or proposition. Either you recognize that your ear-brain interface is flawed or you don't. Either you correct that flaw with a DBT so you can remove as many factors as possible or you don't. Either you understand science or you don't. There is no in between here, at least not in 2019 when we pretty darn well understand wires and their impact on musical fidelity.

But, here's the thing -- there are a too many confounding factors that people can't seem to sort out:

1) Can we measure everything we can hear? I believe that's a yes and no. I believe we can measure more than our ears can physically perceive. But, I don't believe measurement gear can tell us exactly what we hear because it doesn't have a brain and it has no idea how our brain has been biased (at least not in 2019...one day maybe neuroscientists can get there and then we'll inject audio directly into our brains). Anyway, as such, IMO, measurements are infinitely more reliable, accurate, and repeatable than our ears! However, unfortunately, for the audiophools, the fact that their brains are part of the equation makes them believe it is superior to the instrumentation that allows things like...oh...hearing aids to exist and be tuned to a person's specific hearing losses. So, no, we can't measure what you perceive, but we darn well can measure the sound waves your physical ear takes in. Plus, we have a pretty good analysis of how the ear works based on many scientific studies. We also have many clues about the ear-brain interface -- without it, we wouldn't have stereo!

2) Is a DBT reliable? IMO, certainly, if performed properly and to an appropriate statistical confidence level. Without them, we wouldn't have medication that saves lives. Unfortunately, their proper use in audio is infrequent, probably because it doesn't pay. Plus, audiophools rush to say they are too stressed to perform them or can't figure out in such a short time what's what. Hilarious, because to hear them talk of the differences they are night and day! But, toss a DBT into the equation and the differences collapse to nothing. WTF? How is this a damnation of DBT and not a realization that your ears are better when they aren't biased by your eyes!

3) Marketing and pseudo-science are real and have a stranglehold on gullible people with more money than scientific prowess. Plus, ego and the need to acquire and show-off expensive stuff helps pollute the brain-ear interface. Meanwhile, we can build copper cables to propagate GIGAHERTZ (yes, that's kHz, mHz, gHz -- 1,000,000 times larger than the highest frequency we can hear) signals. But, surely, some idget in their garage can revolutionize a cable to more transparently carry up to, say, 20kHz signals. And, hey, even "simple" Cat-5e cable can be used for speaker wire -- ever try using speaker wire for Ethernet?

4) If I hear it then that's my truth. Certainly this is hard to deny. But, do you hear it? I mean, does your physical ear pick up something different? You know, the physical ear which we can already emulate more accurately with scientific devices; devices that "hear" over 20kHz, reliably, and can be calibrated. I know my system sounds better after I imbibe, at night, when I'm relaxed. Maybe there is indeed something to this brain-ear interface that we can't measure, but that doesn't mean we dismiss the ear-air interface that we can measure!


So, yes, all these things get jumbled up and people rally around, "see, my cords make my system sound better, nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise." And those folks have a point, to some extent. Alas, what they concurrently suffer from is a serious misunderstand regarding which interface is being modified. A DBT (or comprehensive set of measurements) would help them confirm that it's not the ear-air interface, rather the ear-brain/ear-eye/eye-brain whatever interface. And, admittedly, we still don't understand as much as I'd like about the latter. But the former is pretty well understood. Making the logical leap from there to "we can measure the effect of cables and understand when they do and don't change anything", for some reason, seems to be hard. I don't get it, I never will.

And one more fly in the ointment -- people like to gravitate to the fact that we never seem to properly reproduce "real" sound. For example, they'll say a recording of an orchestra never sounds like the "real thing", so that must be proof that all our scientific stuff isn't better than our ears. Unfortunately, that's a false conclusion. However, I do look forward to the day that our recordings and playback can be standardized to a level where they finally can sound like "real life". It will probably never happen with the audiophools in charge, though. Kind of ironic, too, considering videophiles go to great lengths to make sure the light waves hitting their eyes are properly calibrated, while many audiophiles go to great lengths to never measure or calibrate a thing and just keep tinkering indefinitely until their ears are happy (up until the next tinker session where their ears become even happier -- or not, and they back out their change without ever realizing why it made them unhappy, insuring they'll repeat the process forever and ever and ever...what a bloody waste of time and money, but to each their own).
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I'm bemused by George's refusal to spend any money on acoustic consulting, considering the level of equipment he's working with. If you're really into chasing the best sound quality you can get (and not just gear flipping), I would think you'd want to optimize all aspects of your system, and not intentionally leave an area of potential improvement unexplored. To me, it's the same as buying a lot of expensive equipment and then wiring it all with Home Depot cables.
I think George is into telling people how much his system is worth and dismissing anyone he thinks has less worthy configurations. This despite it appears he has hamstrung the gear in a non-acoustically controlled room! And he claims to hear the slightest nuance his cables allow in a room that probably has a noise-floor well above acceptable to make said claims. Moreover, without treatments he probably can't play it loud enough before the room obscures all the "goodness" his speakers (and cables, lol) can give him.

Pity, he is likely not getting everything he paid for. But, hey, he's fine with that, because he likes it well enough and his wallet allowed him to spend the money. That fact alone has sufficiently biased his ear-brain interface to like it like unconditionally -- well, until the next cable swap makes it even better, lol!
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Besides, why are you even in a thread about speakers that you have no interest in? Do you periodically search the forums for discussions of expensive cables to jump in on?
I was interested in them, I'm interested in everything audio, I like seeing what's out there, even if I wouldn't ever buy it. I would've never posted a single thing here if I didn't see outlandish claims and received subsequent provocation by people who won't educate themselves properly in the matter and, despite that, can't shut the front (or maybe it's the rear in their case) door about it.
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Of course there is no perfect system but was curious what you have based on your scientific data/measurements. Some on here may find it amusing or maybe informative. Also don't worry about my money. I don't worry about your Porsche even though it's just a vehicle to get from point A to point B. Granted it may be more fun to drive than my lowly Toyota but I get to where I'm going just like you.
Difference is my Porsche has measurable performance that far exceeds your Toyota in all facets. There's no measurable difference with scientific gear between our cables (unless yours are poorly designed and are acting like tone-controls, for which I'd suggest you find a better, cheaper, solution if you're looking for a tone control). Maybe if you did that, you, too, could have a Porsche, lol.
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OK the Ansuz cables have 1/2 the inductance than a Nordost Odin2 which do you know that inductance robs your amp of power when needed? The D-TC dithers away noise just like the Navy's submarines use to clearly hear a ping from hundreds of miles away. But I guess to you that means nothing in audio. As far as the Borresen speakers they use a iron free magnet structure to eliminate the varying impedance that iron creates with motor structures. Coupled with a super light cone structure the transients are electrostatic like but with the dynamics like a conventional box speaker. That's all the science know regarding these products.
Inductance robs high frequencies, probably ones neither of us can hear. It's not a factor unless the cable is poorly made, too long, or too undersized for the length. All these things are easily controlled, known factors. If the composition of the cable has better per/ft parameters then you can run them longer at higher gauges (smaller diameter), decrease the gauge (make them thicker), or better the composition -- some solutions are cheaper than others, none cost the absurd price-of-entry to a Nordost cable!
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It would still be interesting what your system consists of. I find it amusing cable deniers refuse to mention their systems. A system doesn't have to be expensive to sound good but I personally find spending more can make it sound great.
I have JBL M2 studio monitors and four 18" Seaton F18 subs and two dual-15" Seaton Submersive HP subs placed at three different points in my room to help balance out my room modes. You can do the math to determine how much I spent if you'd like, I don't much think it matters, I just wanted a system with infinite volume (for my room, anyway) which means pretty much infinite dynamics (without my ears immediately being blown to bits). I know the M2 speakers to be accurate from their measurements, so anything they can't do is down to my room and my hearing. At my age, it's likely just as much the former as the latter, and I'm still address the former (and hoping some awesome scientist addresses the latter, I hear they are trying to regrow the hairs in our ears!).
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Like DrewTT said go over here and stay there please to peddle your science

https://avscience.com/
Thanks
Funny, pot, kettle. But, hey, I realize I'm no longer welcome here, in this thread, so hopefully I've contributed enough to prevent virgin minds from reading and believing pseudo-science garbage.
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post #85 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 05:54 PM
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I was going to take myself of this thread like y'all wanted, but here you are teasing me like you have the high ground. But, don't you worry, I and people like me will keep using science to make the world a better place, while y'all contribute...well, I don't know what exactly -- projecting stupidity into the world? Well done, it makes me feel great to know I share the planet with fools who are happy to perpetually remain fools.
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Sure would have liked to see a list of the most perfect systems using scientific measurements/data. Oh well [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
Stupid statement -- there is no "perfect" for everyone. But, if we measured your hearing acuity and your system in-room then I wonder if the story those data-points tell would be revealing of your preferences and allow us to recreate them for another individual. Heck, possibly even with a much lower budget. It'd also mean you could recreate your system with a lower budget, and wouldn't that be nice? I mean, if you actually care about sound and not bragging how much you've spent on your system, anyway. If you could have your sound for less, wouldn't that make you happy? Maybe science will make that possible if you'd just give in to it, lol. Think of what you could do with all the money you get from selling your gear to the less informed audiophile ilk.

Naw, I get it, though, your wallet is big enough you don't have to do that! Us science-y folk are just mad because you have such a big wallet -- isn't that pretty much what you implied? Though, let me tell you, my wallet isn't exactly small, either. I just chose to use my A/V money more wisely so all the money I don't waste on, say, exotic cables, can go to better things. It certainly won't go to shysters selling cables for more than my Porsche is worth (not even for more than my phone is worth, lol), that's just financially irresponsible when you know the science behind things.

But, I know, your money, your wallet, you don't want to hear it, you love wasting money, but you don't feel it's a waste, bla bla bla -- you're going to deny science indefinitely and trust your pathetically inept and easily tricked ears and never be capable of recognizing how foolish it is. I know, I know -- you and your brethren are hopeless.

On that note, I'm going to pop off my clown nose and get some work done. Glad to have entertained y'all -- pity, it wasn't my goal, but...whatever works.
I don’t mean to tease but I think your post was a bit condescending. Again it’s audio forum. It’s a hobby. If supposed to be fun. A way to relax and get away from reality for a bit. It’s not that serious is all at least to some of us.
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post #86 of 122 Old 04-29-2019, 09:28 PM
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Dreamwarrior take your 4 - 18" and 2 - 15" subs over to a HT science thread where some bass freaks would like that along with your cable c r a p where someone might enjoy your writings. I'm not interested in foundation cracking or window shattering bass boom. You put your money into a Porsche and I put mine into a 2 channel setup. I listen to my 2 channel approx 8hrs a day where I might drive 20-30 mins a day. I'd rather chill and listen to some good tunes along with a good beer than be driving a few mins a day in an Porsche. I'm very happy with my lowly Toyota Avalon Limited.



Tell me how your JBL M2 studio monitors are scientifically superior to my Borresen 03's or even my old Raidho D3.1's as far as detail/transparency or layers of resolution.
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post #87 of 122 Old 04-30-2019, 02:13 AM
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Dreamwarrior take your 4 - 18" and 2 - 15" subs over to a HT science thread where some bass freaks would like that along with your cable c r a p where someone might enjoy your writings. I'm not interested in foundation cracking or window shattering bass boom. You put your money into a Porsche and I put mine into a 2 channel setup. I listen to my 2 channel approx 8hrs a day where I might drive 20-30 mins a day. I'd rather chill and listen to some good tunes along with a good beer than be driving a few mins a day in an Porsche. I'm very happy with my lowly Toyota Avalon Limited.
I'm sorry, did I hurt your widdle fewlings because that escalated quickly! P.S. it's 4 - 18" and 4 - 15" if you're going to give me crap about it, lol.

Anyway, look, if you bait a hook and decided to fish, don't bother. I'm not going to take this to that low of a level, trying to disrespect the gear you've worked to acquire -- I'll stick to insulting your level of scientific knowledge instead and let you know what that gear is actually doing for you, lol. Plus, I'm going to be the better man here, especially considering what you must be going through and the fact that I'm sitting here listening to music, wishing my departed dad could be here with me enjoying what I've put together. He's the one responsible for my passion towards this hobby (not so much the car one, he hated teaching me to drive, thought I drove too slowly...my how things have changed, lol).

Suffice it to say, I'm not here for a measuring contest, I'm here for a "facts contest". No matter how we wish to measure our gear or possessions, we can't have two different sets of facts and, unfortunately for you, mine have the backing of a community of folks who make this world turn through scientific endeavor. And you have...a bunch of variously talented audiophiles who create things in other ways, sometimes using deceptive practices either knowingly or because they've drank the same kool-aid you have. At the end of the day, those are the legs I'll stand on, not my cables, my system measurements, nor anything else. Fortunately, I pretty much think it's also all I need. Your cables may be pretty, and they certainly are a status symbol among folks like you, but they don't give me wood and you won't convince anyone with a scientific brain they've done anything useful for you besides inflate your ego and bias your mind -- possibly both useful in their own respects, but, to us, not worth the monetary drain.

That said, I'm fine you think I've built a little bass bunker here. Fortunately for me, I have options to keep my system anywhere from completely flat and dynamic to pounding the ever living crap out of me (and still being dynamic, but I've to turn the treble down before my ears give). Anyway, maybe you have those options, too. I doubt it, but maybe. And, it doesn't matter, because if you don't like the kind of music I do, you'll probably never need it. But, when I want to be pounded on by some EDM, feeling the rush of bass just wash over my body, I can be. If, on the other hand, I want Diana Krall's voice standing right in front of me giving me goose-bumps and putting tears in my eyes, I can have that, too. I'm just fine with my bass shaker, thanks! And, I put the money I saved on useless exotic cables into my Porsche and track days to drive it -- gotta have hobbies, haha.

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Tell me how your JBL M2 studio monitors are scientifically superior to my Borresen 03's or even my old Raidho D3.1's as far as detail/transparency or layers of resolution.
Did I say they were? Maybe you've some measurements to show me? Certainly their price tag says they better be superior, I spent around a third of their MSRP on my monitors and the amps that drive them. Maybe that's the money I put into my Porsche, who knows....

Again, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match over our stuff here. If I knew this was where it was going, I wouldn't have posted my gear. But, you seemed interested...should have known you were going to try to laugh me down, heck the foreshadowing was right there in your post when you "asked" (really, goaded me into it, if we're being honest, but whatever). I guess you probably didn't expect me to have studio monitors used in actual studios that make the content some of us listen to. Sorry to disappoint. Suppose you had instead to pick on my subs. Oh well, just further shows your lack of knowledge regarding what it takes to create an actual reference system; i.e., multiple subs, properly configured to cancel the bass modes in a room, with excellent monitors having extension to keep up with the chosen crossover point (and, in my case, the hot bass curve I run as well) to properly blend everything. Plus, having so much "woofage" allows the subs I have to remain "still", creating a bass wave with less motion which allows it to be significantly less distorted (especially at high levels) while still having impact at very, very low levels. I built my system around the science of system design, not futzing around with my pathetic ears trying to get it right by cable-swapping for ages all-the-while "wasting" money on a hobby I care more to listen to than futz with. And that's my thing, and it doesn't have to be yours, but maybe it could be if you'd just give science a chance, lol. Less time with cables more time with beer...sounds like a win-win.

Oh, and just for the record, I didn't say anything about my car having superior specs to piss in your pool. So, if that's what set you off, I'm sorry. I was simply making a point, possibly the wrong way in retrospect, that our cars, unlike our cables, are measurably different. So, I spent more on something that is measurably "better" in aspects that are important to me. While you simply spent more money on something that does no more than give you a psycho-acoustic "high" you're keen on (well, my car does that, too, actually, but, whatever, not the point). And that's cool if you can admit it. But you can't; you think your system actually measures better because you put those cables in. Not only that, but you're unwilling to perform the requisite tests to prove it to us (or at least to yourself) that the money you spent did anything measurable. And that's fine, too. But, again, don't come trying to tell me they are any better than the "c r a p cables" I use -- sorry, that ship doesn't float here. I'll have my psycho-acoustic effects added by my choice of intoxicant, not my cables, thanks!

Anyway, you have great gear, congrats, glad you can afford it. I also must retract the assumption I made in my previous post about your room. While it is probably less than ideal acoustically, you may have a better starting point than many of us (myself included). It'd really be to your benefit to hire someone competent to measure your room and tweak it to perfection -- especially its noise floor. If you have truly incredible gear it'll shine in a room with a vanishingly low noise floor. One thing I have that is lacking is a slightly raised noise floor, if my room were any quieter I'd be annoyed by it for sure. Plus, a calibrator can always restore any house curve you've grown accustomed to, only when they do it'll be perceived without room artifacts. You may find yourself loving it -- or you may hate it. But if they remove the room from the equation at least you'll have an idea what your gear sound like -- mostly your speakers, since they make 90% of the difference, and that may be generous, it may be closer to 99%, especially if you have a system using modern solid-state equipment. If you're going to have a prayer of really hearing what cables do, that's the only way you'll ever get there, IMO.

Best of luck, I hope your next journey into audio expenditure takes you down a different path than throwing away money on cables. I'd be so proud to have a part in it, even if it turns out you hate it! I mean, really, what's your next few sets of cables going to set you back? Can't you hire a decent acoustician for that cost? Why wouldn't you? Just try something new...you may or may not thank me / us for the experience, but...at least have it? Sounds like you can afford it! If you love audio so much, don't you owe it to yourself?

Oh, and in closing, does anyone that constantly tweaks their system ever ask themselves if they are ever actually enjoying it? I mean, if it takes an annual, bi-annual, whatever period, upgrade of a frugging cable to continuously rejuvenate your love for your system, don't you think something may be...wrong? My goal is to get to a point where my system does exactly what I want it to, through measurements and scientific method, buying only what I need to accomplish my goals and spending no more. Then, I want to sit back and enjoy it forever, spending the money from upgrades instead on media to enjoy it with, beer, other hobbies, or anything else. For me, the hobby is the listening, the gear is just a way to get there.
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post #88 of 122 Old 04-30-2019, 05:57 AM
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DreamWarrior I do apologize for attacking your subs. I personally hate overpowering low end. I'll even admit my Raidho D3.1's did have a mid bass hump around 100hz. At lower listening levels (70-80db) the music sounds fuller in the lows. That is 90+% of my listening. 85+db the D3.1's could sound boomy depending on the track being played or when streaming from the internet. That said the Raidho's were never designed to be a concert in your home and I knew that when I got them. When setup properly they are designed for clarity/detail imaging and sound stage. Raidho's are not for everybody but what product is?

But you do attack my cables. Inductance robs power in power cords at low frequencies. It's capacitance that distorts the high frequencies which is bad for interconnects and speaker cables. Ansuz cables also rejects RF like from cell phones - wireless devices and microwaves. I assume you know all wire acts like antenna. The D-TC modules cancels noise generated by switching regulator power supplies - light dimmers especially from cfl and leds etc. I agree some cables act like tone controls but Ansuz lets me hear more of what any complete system is capable of.

Like you said we all like to have hobbies and I take audio seriously like you do with your Porsche at the track or the low end in your system.
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post #89 of 122 Old 04-30-2019, 10:31 AM
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Look, you can do whatever you want and take audio "seriously" however you think that means. I'm really just asking that you prove it to yourself that the cables you spend so much money on are actually doing what you think they are. You say all these things, which are right out of the cable-marketing brochure, but you just don't understand at what point and at what limit they actually make a difference.

Did you have cell-phone interference ruining your experience before? If you did, and a cable fixed it, then great. I've never had that problem, my system is pretty revealing.

Do you have a cable that is robbing you of power? Was it too long or too undersized for its intended purpose? Was it making a measurable difference in your response? If so, maybe you needed to upgrade -- you could have upgraded by getting a fatter pipe, that's usually all that is required, but...unless you measured, how did you know you solved the problem? How did you know you had one to begin with? How, with all the psycho-acoustic biases that science absolutely, undeniably, knows exist, could you possibly trust your sighted ears to make an accurate judgement regarding which cables sound better? You honestly can't, and this is my problem.

If cables are making a difference in your system, and I'm not saying they don't, then there's a measurable reason. For example, some tube amps are very sensitive to their coupling with the speakers. I could see improvements in the interconnect having some difference there, but whether or not it is audible (and "better" as far as "fidelity" is concerned) can only be proven by a DBT or accurate measurement gear, IMO.

So, again, I'm not going to dismiss cables can make a difference. I've said that already in this thread, maybe you haven't read it. But, I am going to be very strict on the parameters where-in these difference can manifest. And, as always, if you say it's audible, the burden of proof is on you. I'm not going to say it isn't, because I don't have your ears, but I do have a very similar eye-brain interface and it's easily tricked, so unless you remove it, I can't (and you shouldn't) trust your ears! This is my only point, it's a simple point, and you're unwilling to explore it.

It's that willful ignorance that puts us at an indefinite impasse, I suppose. And, fine, continue to be gleefully without knowledge of how your system performs beyond your own hearing. At the end of the day, I can't dispute that your perception is all that matters. However, that perception is built on more than your ears and if you'd remove the other biases you'd probably start to realize you probably could've had the performance you do without spending nearly as much money on cables. Maybe, just maybe, that's what I'm trying to say here.

Anyway, I think we've gone in circles enough in a thread completely unrelated, lol. I'm glad we managed to get through this without moderator intervention. I'm hopeful you'll at least consider what I've said, but I doubt it. I really do think you could experience another level if you would just perform the proper tests to convince yourself your cables are making no difference. Plus, if they are, you can determine, scientifically, why. Then I guarantee you can fix the problem for less outlay than a cable. After which you can sell the cables, spend it on your room, and enter the next level of sonic bliss!

Or...maybe not. Maybe you've heard mastering rooms or top-flight systems (outside of crappy hotel rooms, lol). Maybe you know exactly what such a room (e.g., Rob Hahn's incredible system which I'd love to hear, built with my own model of speakers) sounds like and you don't like it. I don't know.

Last edited by DreamWarrior; 04-30-2019 at 10:36 AM.
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post #90 of 122 Old 04-30-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post
I only care what my ears like.
I agree, and I, too, only care what my ears like. However, I have found that my ears are poor evaluators of the accuracy of audio devices, especially when my eyes are also involved in the evaluation. If I were going to spend 5 figures on a cable to simply transport electricity from a wall outlet, (one that has standard Romex solid core wire attached to it behind the wall), I would certainly want to prove to myself that it actually does *something* before I spent my $$$$$ on it. The easiest and best way to do that is with a simple "blind" test. I would just have someone change out the existing cable with the new cable, in random order, and see if I can accurately identify each cable. If I can definitely hear a difference, I can then decide if I "prefer" one or the other. However, if I can't reliably and accurately identify one cable from the other, then I can't "really" hear a difference. In that case I can't possibly say I "prefer" one or the other as they both sound identical to me, or at least not different enough to reliably tell the difference.

This kind of "scientific" testing is completely FREE and it doesn't require any test gear other than someone to change cables without letting the listener know which cable is in use, and keeping track of the results. There are 2 benefits to doing this: 1. One can verify that the new cable is indeed better than the previous cable in a very short amount of time; or 2. One can save money by not buying a cable that doesn't provide any significant benefit over the previous cable.

Like I said, If *I* were paying $$$$$ for a power cable, I would want to prove to myself that there is a difference. In addition, if *YOU* were to perform such a test, and then came back to the forum and showed us that you were repeatedly able to identify cable A from cable B, and then stated that you preferred Cable A, we could then know that your impressions were based on valid, theoretically repeatable listening tests, and that the tests had the variables of expectation/confirmation bias removed. Otherwise, when you say you spent 2 weeks listening to a new cable and you definitely preferred it to your previous cable, that is just an interesting anecdote. Here's the definition of anecdotal evidence:

Quote:
Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Your 2-week listening test is an anecdote, and not "sound" evidence, (PI). OTOH, if you performed a blind listening test, that would definitely be considered as valid evidence. If you presented the results of a blind listening test, I would find tremendous value in that data point, no matter which way the results play out. If you were indeed able to reliably identify one cable from another, I would definitely re-think my stance on these types of issues, and your preference would influence me to try such cable.

(I have no doubt you would *honestly* report the results! )

Craig

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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