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post #31 of 72 Old 02-16-2019, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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That is a lot like Amphion, no? No wonder I like them.
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post #32 of 72 Old 02-16-2019, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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What about the Adam S2V? Should blow away home speakers as a monitor. Anyone have graphs? Plus they are way less money. Considering I only need to get a preamp and not an amp. Sticking with pro audio I could get an Avalon preamp. Plus their sub. All of that slightly more money than the KEF. It has DSP room correction too!
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post #33 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 12:05 PM
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Well, this morning decided to try a real monitor setup. Remember this is a 3rd system. I just wanted this. most people would not like it to listen to I assume. I have 45 day's to return at Guitar Center.

Genelec 8350A,7370A, Avalon Preamp. Then went and got audioquest top power cords. Spent $65,000 so hope I like it but all returnable. funny how the price escalated from B&W to KEF to this LOL. That is okay. my good bookshelves are about $200,000 just the speakers. With amps, Dac, sub and cables everything that "little" system is about half a million smackers. I do vastly prefer sub sat over formidable floor standers. I had big Wilsons and traded towards the Ex3ma's. The only thing Is must get used to composite cabinets instead of nice wood veneer but that is no big deal. I will say how I like them after they break in a few weeks. Of course studio guy's do not believe in break in's anyhow.
So you spent 15K on speakers/preamp and 50K on power cords? lol

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post #34 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 12:36 PM
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TT,

Holy moly my son.

Did you win the lottery, get a huge inheritance, play n the NF or star rapper?

The Genelec speaker/sub combo are like $9g’s so the preamp and power cords where $56,000?

Dude...

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post #35 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 01:01 PM
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I smell BS.

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post #36 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 01:43 PM
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No. The speakers and sub were about 10K. The preamp about 7K. The dac 6K. Yes, the 4 power cords and two balanced interconnects were $12K. The software is $3K. Plus got a laptop to power it, Furmans TOTL power conditioner, Meridian 808 CD. I actually got discounts! I am a Federal Criminal Defense Attorney. Been working 36 years so have some money. Honestly though I am already regretting what I spent. I imagine the same could been achieved with KEF Ref. 1 and REL T9I, lesser power conditioner and the Yamaha CD S2100 looks very nice. Lower end cables. Could have spent less than 15K. Can you imagine the salesmen when I return all this LOL. Not BS just stupid. My main system really is about half a Million but probably more worth it than this was. Seriously in retrospect this was really stupid. I will most likely return it all. Give it a few weeks and see what I think.

This is going to sound absurd but I am being serious. How does the LS50 compare to the REF. 1? Not price but sound wise. I think KEF is my deal. I like metal drivers. The graphs look up my alley on both of them. I did not care for the 805 D3 at all and salesman said it was very neutral. I think very dull, muddy. Just my opinion though. This stuff just might be too flat and fatiguing. Don't know yet. What I am pretty sure of, yes this was dumb. In a recording studio sure, I don't know in here. One thing they are not very pretty. Look like cheap plastic.

Look I did not mean to start a flame war. I admit what I just did was probably an enormous waste of my money. I bet I would have liked the KEF's better. I really need to go hear them. The joke will be if I like the LS50 better. Big price difference to what I just did. I apologize for my probable stupidity here. However there is no reason to start arguing about it either. I have a feeling I could have been happier for 1/3rd the money. I admit that. I just went berserk but I am already regretting getting the bill in the mail.
Lol I would've at least gotten the Genelec 8351 not the 8350, at least that's their top of the line speaker for imaging.
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post #37 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 01:59 PM
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We are getting trolled.

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post #38 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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They were not in stock LOL. I do like metal drivers and whatever you call that tweeter scoop that lets you listen off axis. I kind of bet I already have a change of heart. Must hear the KEF's.

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post #39 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 02:06 PM
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8260

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post #40 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Will look into 8260 but I need to listen to the KEF's. I just did not understand if the Ref 1. is "better" than the LS50 or just different sounding? So I have some knowledge before I go listen.

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post #41 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 03:48 PM
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post #42 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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No kidding SoftDome. Way I feel now. mm, 10" is too big. Best 8"?
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post #43 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 09:20 PM
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I am unhappy with what I spent. If need to pair down at least the cables and CD player. Will look into 8260 but I need to listen to the KEF's. I just did not understand if the Ref 1. is "better" than the LS50 or just different sounding? So I have some knowledge before I go listen. Thank you guy's for not letting this get out of hand. I am the first to admit I could have choosen more wisely. I have no idea why I did this. For starters there are apparently better Genelecs to begin with.
The Reference 1 is objectively better than the LS50. The magnets structure is better, the drivers are of a higher class (the LS50 uses the R100 driver, the Reference 1 uses the Blade drivers), and the Reference 1 is a 3-way which is ideal design for a coaxial system. Because the outer driver works as a waveguide for the tweeter in a coaxial driver, you don't want it to move much or it will cause doppler distortion. A 3-way alleviates most of the excursion because the everything below 350Hz or so is sent to the woofer.

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post #44 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 09:45 PM
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The Reference 1 is objectively better than the LS50. The magnets structure is better, the drivers are of a higher class (the LS50 uses the Q150 driver, the Reference 1 uses the Blade drivers), and the Reference 1 is a 3-way which is ideal design for a coaxial system. Because the outer driver works as a waveguide for the tweeter in a coaxial driver, you don't want it to move much or it will cause doppler distortion. A 3-way alleviates most of the excursion because the everything below 350Hz or so is sent to the woofer.


Where in the world did you come up with this? LS50 doesn’t use the same driver as Q150. That’s complete nonsense.

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post #45 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 09:56 PM
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Where in the world did you come up with this? LS50 doesn’t use the same driver as Q150. That’s complete nonsense.
I mistyped it, I meant the R100 driver. Although you shouldn't really talk, you sprout more nonsense than anyone on this forum.
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post #46 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 10:06 PM
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I mistyped it, I meant the R100 driver. Although you shouldn't really talk, you sprout more nonsense than anyone on this forum.


Lol. Wrong again bud.

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post #47 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like a brighter speaker though. I am sure the Genelecs are completely flat I would imagine. My ideal would go to 35hz flat and boosted high range. In only a 6.5" mid and 1" metal tweeter. The 805 are certainly not it. I have yet to hear the Ref 1. though. Plus the TAD. Those seem similar to what I would like. Width here is a consideration though. Really not more than 11" wide. From the looks of it I think I would like the KEF. Room to spare.

Of course graphs are not listening for myself. Maybe LS50 with sub? Not sure. It seems a lot of hype on LS50. Exactly what I want is something that sounds similar to the Argon 3. With that wide dispersion tweeter. Those really were a bargain IMO. Alas, no longer made. I do not like the Argon 3'S' as it is mid heavy and less treble. Although at about $1,200 used if 9.5+ out of 10 maybe just get what I really want.

My reference system is an entirely different sound. I was looking for a much different flavor but certainly not to replace it.

Thank you to all of you that have been truly helpful to me.

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post #48 of 72 Old 02-17-2019, 10:41 PM
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I think you should look into using room correction. Now Genelec's software is very good, so I definitely suggest you run it. But if you go with passive, I suggest Dirac Live, either through an Arcam/NAD receiver or a Minidsp unit. You can tailor your own target curve to the sound you prefer. You can also start with REW (Room EQ Wizard) and a UMIK-1 mic if for a lower-cost way to dip your toes into room correction.

You should go with a speaker that has good dispersion so the sweet spot is big, so that when you run a target curve with room correction it will sound consistent across the room, so looking at the Kef Reference 1 or another 3-way coaxial is a good start, the 3-way Genelecs like the 8260/8351 are also very good.

The 8350 isn't bad per se but if you want a big soundstage a 1" tweeter with an 8" woofer isn't ideal unless you cross the tweeter over very low. The 8350 does have a bit of a dip between 1-2KHz off-axis because the woofer is crossed over at 1.8KHz and has narrower dispersion than the tweeter at this frequency range. It also will be much more height sensitive than a coaxial and won't have dispersion anywhere near a coaxial driver on the vertical axis.

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post #49 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Amphion makes a big deal their tweeter is crossed over at 1600HZ. Lower is better? I really want a 6-1/2" midbass of metal and a 1" tweeter of metal. For all diamond is cracked up to be I did not find much treble in the 805. Plus it has the fluted enclosure. It sounded kind of muddy to me. I want extenuated treble and 35HZ flat from 6-1/2" driver. Argon 3 did just that. I just need to find something new that sounds very similar. I guess I could take risk used for the price. If there are even any to be had. Per original post I liked the Argon 3 much better than the 805 D3. The 'S' model headed in the direction of the 805. They claim it does not ring at 1600HZ. I do prefer the wide dispersion tweeter for off axis performance. I do not know between KEF and Genelec? TAD dealer is too far away. What about Joseph audio? I think that is totally different though. More like my Ex3ma? It just goes to show price is not a factor to how any given person hears things. The KEF at least looks nice and room to spare. Surprised it is so narrow.

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post #50 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 12:55 AM
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The main issue with crossing over a larger woofer with a 1" tweeter is that the dispersion of the woofer narrows as the frequency rises. A 5" woofer is more generally ideal with a traditional tweeter because it can be crossed over at something like 2+ KHz which doesn't require too much power handling on the part of the tweeter.

The problem once you use a 6.5" woofer is that to match the dispersion of a 5" woofer you'd have to cross over with the tweeter somewhere closer to 1.5KHz, which is really too much for most tweeters to handle. One way around that is like what Amphion did with a large waveguide as it adds output to the tweeter without requiring more excursion from the tweeter, and also helps shape the dispersion of the driver. Klipsch crosses some of their bookshelf speakers over as low as 1.4KHz because they load the tweeter output with a large horn structure. The downside to this is it may add some nonlinear distortion due to imperfections in the waveguide or horn geometry. The audibility of these higher order modes is often debated.

If you liked the Argon you could also look at the Buchardt S400, or maybe demo Revel Ultima2 or PerformaBe, they might have a similar sound.

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post #51 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the help. Yes, the waveguide is what I really like. The Buchardt S400 looks just like the Amphion, upside down! The PerformaBe also looks promising. The Ultima2 is too large physically. Why are these types of speakers so low in price compared to others? So was the Argon. Are they considered "lower end" products? This is what I like the sound of. I prefer it over much more expensive speakers. Save me a fortune too. Just from the looks of them they appear to be what I am looking for. I will need to audition them of course.

To me put next to the 805 D3 I bet I prefer one of these. Does that mean I have poor taste or bad ears? I am being serious. I don't know. I did not like the 805 at all but the salesman said it would blow me away. I do not quite understand why I prefer this type of "cheap" speaker. Is it just a matter of taste or are they lower quality? Still have to here both of the KEF though. I think it is the waveguide that does it for me.

Incidentally Genelec has it to some extent. Genelec probably is too flat for me. I really appreciate that you pointed these out to me. I was unaware of these. Probably the Revel and I know a dealer that should have them. I actually do not like radiators. Which is what I feel ruined the Argon 3S. I will definitely need a sub with these. -6DB at 54HZ. I prefer the REL S3/Sho.

I will try to hear them today. I am familiar with old Revel. I figure they might suit me even though lower priced. That does not tell everything though. I think many people might prefer a less expensive model to a more expensive one and vice versa. It is all a matter of hearing and taste. I do not think these are low quality? I wish I had the room for the Gem 2 but have not even heard them yet.

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post #52 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 03:49 AM
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Well speakers are like most products, there isn't always a direct link between price and quality. Also as a consumer looking from the outside in, you also don't know if the pricing is due to economies of scale, production cost, or just plain price gouging.

Generally the most expensive part of a speaker is the cabinet, and speakers closer to 2k tend to have less fancier finishes or cabinet materials than a speaker that's $6000 or more (like in the case of the B&W or Kefs), which don't necessarily contribute that much to the sound. I think Floyd Toole mentioned something that once you go above around $1800/pair for speakers from a measurement perspective on average the more expensive speakers aren't really qualitatively better. Beyond that point, most of the money is spent on the cabinet (so you are being effectively sold a furniture piece), or in the case of Genelec, Nordic countries have pretty high standards of living, I'm sure the labor cost contributes a lot to the prices. You also have to consider mindshare, some brands are able to charge more on the basis of their name alone (say Apple vs some generic cell phone company), even if the product isn't qualitatively better.

Finally regarding B&W, I don't think you have bad ears, they have a frequency response that is not accurate so it'll be pretty hit or miss with most people. While I don't know the dealer you visited, they do have a vested interest in making a sale, so I wouldn't take anything they say at face value. Even in a retail store at Best Buy they have teenagers pushing $200 HDMI cables that aren't really qualitatively better than $10 ones...

As far as Revel, yes the PerformaBe M126BE is a killer speaker, I would definitely recommend a demo.

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post #53 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. You made me feel better about it. I will go listen to the Revel and KEF. I pretty much already narrowed it down to those 2. However they will give you a big discount on KEF. Especially Demo's. So they are not really 8 Grand. The price you pay is the price they actually are. Even if some people get a better deal than others. I just do not like the 805. I know that much already.
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post #54 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 06:44 AM
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No. The speakers and sub were about 10K. The preamp about 7K. The dac 6K. Yes, the 4 power cords and two balanced interconnects were $12K. The software is $3K. Plus got a laptop to power it, Furmans TOTL power conditioner, Meridian 808 CD. I actually got discounts! I am a Federal Criminal Defense Attorney. Been working 36 years so have some money. Honestly though I am already regretting what I spent. I imagine the same could been achieved with KEF Ref. 1 and REL T9I, lesser power conditioner and the Yamaha CD S2100 looks very nice. Lower end cables. Could have spent less than 15K. Can you imagine the salesmen when I return all this LOL. Not BS just stupid. My main system really is about half a Million but probably more worth it than this was. Seriously in retrospect this was really stupid. I will most likely return it all. Give it a few weeks and see what I think.

This is going to sound absurd but I am being serious. How does the LS50 compare to the REF. 1? Not price but sound wise. I think KEF is my deal. I like metal drivers. The graphs look up my alley on both of them. I did not care for the 805 D3 at all and salesman said it was very neutral. I think very dull, muddy. Just my opinion though. This stuff just might be too flat and fatiguing. Don't know yet. What I am pretty sure of, yes this was dumb. In a recording studio sure, I don't know in here. One thing they are not very pretty. Look like cheap plastic.

Look I did not mean to start a flame war. I admit what I just did was probably an enormous waste of my money. I bet I would have liked the KEF's better. I really need to go hear them. The joke will be if I like the LS50 better. Big price difference to what I just did. I apologize for my probable stupidity here. However there is no reason to start arguing about it either. I have a feeling I could have been happier for 1/3rd the money. I admit that. I just went berserk but I am already regretting getting the bill in the mail.
I can't even dream spending a fraction of this amount for my set up. Can you pls share pic of your system for us to see how it looks.

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post #55 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 09:34 AM
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It is in boxes in my trunk. Plan on returning it all. Salesmen not going to be happy but part of the job. I will probably get the REVEL or KEF. otherwise if I do not like either of those I just found a Argon 3 store Demo. Stuff is treated good in high end stores so hopefully not banged up if I chose these. Again, what I did was asinine. Luckily I will not get bill if I return it in next few days. I know you will also call bs on this but remember, credit cards. Did not actually pay anything. Was too disappointed to even unpack it. For one thing those are not even the best Genelecs and I could have haggled the heck out of them too. Cables absolutely have to go back. Pros use Mogami on that and so will I. If I get the others I will redo the DS senior at a better price, get lessor cables, Yamaha CD S2100,REL sub,cheaper power conditioner and should be under $15K. Big difference. You obviously are pointing out what I already realized. 65 Grand for what I got is not a bill I wish to pay for! All going back. Will buy all at one place and cut a deal. The weasels at GC and the other large store simply do not care what your budget is. My fault and my own stupidity but at least I can easily undo this mistake. I went nuts, and for what.....

Sorry, I don't mean to overly critical, so don't take this the wrong way....but I think you just need to slow down and breathe...... It seems like you are in a big rush to get something nice (and expensive), but you're not taking the time to enjoy the ride! You just need to take your time, visit as many places as you can, develop a relationship with your salesfolks, do a lot of auditioning to the extent the local selection will allow. You'll get there, without regrets.

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post #56 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 12:04 PM
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Today would be a good day to shop. I’m sure courts are closed for the holiday.

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post #57 of 72 Old 02-18-2019, 01:54 PM
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^^^

As a lawyer I’d thought you would be careful in what you print.

I hope the salesman doesn’t read this thread.

Take a look at the Genelec 1238a

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post #58 of 72 Old 02-19-2019, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyways to make this very simple. KEF short of Amphion floor model. I am torn since both are floor models. It is interesting that to me the Apmphion just edges out the KEF. It is the extended treble no doubt. Played them with the sub I want. The KEF does go a little lower. With sub that is not an issue. I feel the Amphion crossed over with the sub better too. The KEF you could hear the crossover a bit. The Amphion was almost seamless. He will give me the Kef floor model for way less than a used one goes for. So I am not sure. Is the KEF a better speaker or I should just get what I really want?

Both were sans scratches,marks. I can't say the kef is better. It is coaxial but the Amphion has a much bigger wave guide. The Amphion also has more expensive Scanspeak drivers. Not entirely sure yet. I will think about it Tomorrow. The revel is good but not at the level of those two. I listened to some other speakers such as Aerial but I immediately discounted those. I was just wondering which is the better speaker but my ears ultimately speak for themselves. Studio monitors were not the ticket. Thank you folks.

Last edited by TriTon464; 02-25-2019 at 12:33 PM.
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post #59 of 72 Old 02-20-2019, 09:30 AM
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The best advice is to compare your two finalists in YOUR room with YOUR electronics.
With what you have purchased (and are returning) cost shouldn't be much of an issue.
12-guage, oxygen free copper wire is ALL you need for speakers. No need for esoteric fairy-dust $1000/ft speaker wire, $2K interconnects, and power cords as they are not needed.
Try them out at home - it's the only way you will feel happy, and not thinking "what if".
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post #60 of 72 Old 02-20-2019, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post
Bump. Second page already. You guy's left when it came down to the wire! What gives? This shall be the last time I ask for advice here. If it goes unanswered I will simply do as I see fit. My ears.
The Argon 2 seems to measure best of all the Amphions measured here but, in the end, just let your ears decide.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=16&Itemid=140

Geoff A. J., California
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