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post #31 of 78 Old 06-08-2019, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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New YouTube review by Andrew Robinson just posted


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post #32 of 78 Old 06-08-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Listening Window looks really good...would this give ribbons a run for their money?



There do appear to be some resonances, but everyone loves the way they sound so far.
I'm not so sure about resonances. What stands out is the sudden increase in the directivity index at the crossover region, and the big dip at the same point in the Sound Power curve. The former indicates that the dispersion of the woofer and tweeter don't match very well at the crossover point--I would guess that the woofer is beaming a lot of energy forward. The latter might be due to the wave guide dispersion interfering with the woofer at extreme off-axis distances. I don't know whether any of this would significantly degrade the perceived balance.
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post #33 of 78 Old 06-08-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
I always wonder with a waveguide that big, don't you need a big foam block like on the Gedlee Abbey to suppress all the higher order modes generated by such a waveguide?
The Abbey's waveguide is around 12" diameter-a LOT bigger than the Buchardt. And even if it needs some, I'd think the foam looks a bit peculiar to most eyes plus adds cost. So no factory foam. Hmm, a feel a new wildly expensive accessory coming into the market...

I like the large waveguide idea; I hope they make a tower version. Maybe this thing with opposed woofers down below or something
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post #34 of 78 Old 06-08-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I'm not so sure about resonances. What stands out is the sudden increase in the directivity index at the crossover region, and the big dip at the same point in the Sound Power curve. The former indicates that the dispersion of the woofer and tweeter don't match very well at the crossover point--I would guess that the woofer is beaming a lot of energy forward. The latter might be due to the wave guide dispersion interfering with the woofer at extreme off-axis distances. I don't know whether any of this would significantly degrade the perceived balance.
Which makes you wonder why they said the tweeter they used was better than for this use than the SB Acoustics Satori TW29BN. You would think with that tweeter they could have crossed the tweeter over much lower and flattened the DI rise in the 2k region--Revel for example crosses over at 1700hz with the Be tweeter.
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post #35 of 78 Old 06-08-2019, 10:29 PM
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I like the large waveguide idea; I hope they make a tower version. Maybe this thing with opposed woofers down below or something
With the way they operate, with the world wide shipping and free returns, I don’t think they’d be able to do that with a tower. I mean, they could, but a tower would likely be significantly more expensive and subsequently wouldn’t be delivering the same value.
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post #36 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I'm not so sure about resonances. What stands out is the sudden increase in the directivity index at the crossover region, and the big dip at the same point in the Sound Power curve. The former indicates that the dispersion of the woofer and tweeter don't match very well at the crossover point--I would guess that the woofer is beaming a lot of energy forward. The latter might be due to the wave guide dispersion interfering with the woofer at extreme off-axis distances. I don't know whether any of this would significantly degrade the perceived balance.
Not sure I completely agree with the latter two points. I would say the dispersion is a design choice as directivity seems steadily increasing about 4kHz (see photo) which is an octave above the acoustical crossover point. It also appears to be a quite deep waveguide.

The dip is quite likely because of interference in vertical plane since sound power encompasses this as well, and also because of the large waveguide there is some more driver-to-driver distance, which would exaggerate the effect.

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post #37 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 05:18 AM
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Due to the inability to fill all orders, I have voluntarily stepped back in exchange for a discount. It will be a couple more months before I get my hands on them.

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post #38 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 05:42 AM
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New YouTube review by Andrew Robinson just posted
Good call, thanks!

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post #39 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 06:44 AM
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New YouTube review by Andrew Robinson just posted


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I don't put much weight to his flowery, audiophile, extremely subjective reviews.
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post #40 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 07:26 AM
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I also did a review on these. They are pretty awesome little speakers. Especially for a two way

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post #41 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Not sure I completely agree with the latter two points. I would say the dispersion is a design choice as directivity seems steadily increasing about 4kHz (see photo) which is an octave above the acoustical crossover point. It also appears to be a quite deep waveguide.

The dip is quite likely because of interference in vertical plane since sound power encompasses this as well, and also because of the large waveguide there is some more driver-to-driver distance, which would exaggerate the effect.


There may be some vertical cancellationissues, but presumably the directivity curve is intended to capture audible effects. There's a definite narrowing at the crossover point, and this may be audible. I just haven't had enough experience correlating sound with the spinorama measurements.

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post #42 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
There may be some vertical cancellation effects, but presumably the directivity curve is intended to capture audible effects. There's a definite narrowing at the crossover point, and this may be audible. I just haven't had enough experience correlating sound with the spinorama measurements. Y

In that perspective, there is a narrowing, yes - but I would not call it a mismatch, just my opinion
It could be considered a minature horn instead of a waveguide I suppose, according to the D.I at least. In any case it's a well behaved loudspeaker.


kind regards
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post #43 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
In that perspective, there is a narrowing, yes - but I would not call it a mismatch, just my opinion
It could be considered a minature horn instead of a waveguide I suppose, according to the D.I at least. In any case it's a well behaved loudspeaker.
kind regards
I would certainly like to have a pair to see whether blips in the directivity curve really matter. My instincts tell me that some of the Spinorama measurements are much more important than others.
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post #44 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 11:25 AM
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New YouTube review by Andrew Robinson just posted


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This is the same dude that claimed the Tekton garbage was better then B&W D2s. Seems like a paid shill.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
New YouTube review by Andrew Robinson just posted
This is the same dude that claimed the Tekton garbage was better then B&W D2s. Seems like a paid shill.
I haven't seen that, but he was right on about the EMP Tek Impressions back in 2009. I haven't seen his reviews since.

Nothing about this review is unbelievable, though. He seems to be accurately describing his experiences with them. Give it a watch it you haven't.

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post #46 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 12:31 PM
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I would certainly like to have a pair to see whether blips in the directivity curve really matter. My instincts tell me that some of the Spinorama measurements are much more important than others.
If you paid shipping, I wouldn't mind letting you borrow my pair in a few months. Would be useful research and I would be interested in your thoughts.

Of course you can order your own pair with free shipping, so this may not be the cheapest way to hear them.
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post #47 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 01:15 PM
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I haven't seen that, but he was right on about the EMP Tek Impressions back in 2009. I haven't seen his reviews since.

Nothing about this review is unbelievable, though. He seems to be accurately describing his experiences with them. Give it a watch it you haven't.
I do like the S400s.

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post #48 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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This is the same dude that claimed the Tekton garbage was better then B&W D2s. Seems like a paid shill.


I know there’s way too much of that sort of thing in this industry, but I’ve heard the Tektons, and was very favorably impressed.


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post #49 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 01:37 PM
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I would certainly like to have a pair to see whether blips in the directivity curve really matter. My instincts tell me that some of the Spinorama measurements are much more important than others.

Yes - the most important one is the direct sound. Listening window average is a good example, although depending on the speaker it can still differ within that 'window'. The early reflection curve and matching DI curve are more debatable. Research says wider dispersion loudspeakers are preferred in homes, although subjectively not everyone seems to agree. Personally I find both enjoyable (narrow and wide dispersion) as long as the loudspeaker itself is well-behaved in terms of on- and off-axis. Dips in the total sound power or early reflections are perceived as less invasive than peaks.

Here's a handy pdf: https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...ama-Charts.pdf
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post #50 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 01:40 PM
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This is the same dude that claimed the Tekton garbage was better then B&W D2s. Seems like a paid shill.
Considering that B&W was driven into a sound quality ditch after Lawrence Dickie left (i.e. when Nautilus replaced Matrix), that's not implausible. Tekton does some interesting things. Not necessarily the design choices I'd make, but reasonable. They look better than the current gen "sewer pipe" Nautilii, too.

As for the S400, I think as much as anything else we might be seeing a limitation of the Spinorama format as much as anything else. I think separate horizontal and vertical DIs might be an improvement, though at some point you gotta stop adding lines to the chart.

A horizontal polar map would be useful to see what's going on in the horizontal plane in the crossover.

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post #51 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 02:15 PM
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A horizontal polar map would be useful to see what's going on in the horizontal plane in the crossover.

All on their website..

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/s400-detailed-description
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post #52 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 02:53 PM
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Yes - the most important one is the direct sound. Listening window average is a good example, although depending on the speaker it can still differ within that 'window'. The early reflection curve and matching DI curve are more debatable. Research says wider dispersion loudspeakers are preferred in homes, although subjectively not everyone seems to agree. Personally I find both enjoyable (narrow and wide dispersion) as long as the loudspeaker itself is well-behaved in terms of on- and off-axis. Dips in the total sound power or early reflections are perceived as less invasive than peaks.

Here's a handy pdf: https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...ama-Charts.pdf
Thanks for the great pdf. That's the best discussion I've seen of the Spin tests.
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post #53 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 02:55 PM
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A horizontal polar map would be useful to see what's going on in the horizontal plane in the crossover.

All on their website..

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/s400-detailed-description
An interesting point, if it hasn't been made yet, is that the speakers were designed by Kasper Raun, a former Dynaudio engineer.

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post #54 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 02:59 PM
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If you paid shipping, I wouldn't mind letting you borrow my pair in a few months. Would be useful research and I would be interested in your thoughts.

Of course you can order your own pair with free shipping, so this may not be the cheapest way to hear them.
Sounds interesting. Thanks for the offer. If you remember your generosity in a few months, drop me a PM. I promise to keep the dogs away from them.
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post #55 of 78 Old 06-09-2019, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Yes - the most important one is the direct sound. Listening window average is a good example, although depending on the speaker it can still differ within that 'window'. The early reflection curve and matching DI curve are more debatable. Research says wider dispersion loudspeakers are preferred in homes, although subjectively not everyone seems to agree. Personally I find both enjoyable (narrow and wide dispersion) as long as the loudspeaker itself is well-behaved in terms of on- and off-axis. Dips in the total sound power or early reflections are perceived as less invasive than peaks.

Here's a handy pdf: https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-co...ama-Charts.pdf
I know you follow the Harman research as well but lately I've come to the conclusion that the overall sound power may be the most important aspect of the spinorama, at least they way I have my speakers setup. I've been using LS50's for about a year now, which don't have the best on-axis sound, and I point them straight ahead without any toe-in, many people believe they sound best this way. The off-axis response is smoother for sure and I also did the same with the BMR(I was part of the road show), I thought they sounded the best with no toe in and I believe Dennis Murphy recommended the same. My LS50 vs M105 shootout is what leads me to believe the sound power is the most important aspect, otherwise the M105 should have won pretty easily, but they didn't and I can't explain it any other way. For people who listen on-axis or within 15 degrees, the listening window is probably the most important measurement.
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post #56 of 78 Old 06-10-2019, 09:04 AM
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I know you follow the Harman research as well but lately I've come to the conclusion that the overall sound power may be the most important aspect of the spinorama, at least they way I have my speakers setup. I've been using LS50's for about a year now, which don't have the best on-axis sound, and I point them straight ahead without any toe-in, many people believe they sound best this way. The off-axis response is smoother for sure and I also did the same with the BMR(I was part of the road show), I thought they sounded the best with no toe in and I believe Dennis Murphy recommended the same. My LS50 vs M105 shootout is what leads me to believe the sound power is the most important aspect, otherwise the M105 should have won pretty easily, but they didn't and I can't explain it any other way. For people who listen on-axis or within 15 degrees, the listening window is probably the most important measurement.
I can't say why the M105 'lost' to the LS50 in your particular case. It could be something happening below the transition frequency, it could be something else. Was this the active or passive LS50? I've seen measurements and the active version seems better behaved. Did you take any measurements of these systems? It may be subtle voicing differences as well. I compared the M105 to my Genelec 8030C and also slightly preferred the Genelecs in the living the room. This was a sighted test, so a word of caution. Both are fine loudspeakers. The M105 and the F206 have some slight on-axis ripples in the treble, that to my ears are fatiguing. I listen to mine at 15° off-axis - they sound and measure best that way (soundstage measured the F206). My Genelecs are pointed almost on-axis. I do find that the differences between recordings are more apparent on the M105. If you were to ask me which of the two is more likely to be a good studio monitor, I'd probably pick the Revels! The Genelecs sound 'good' with just about anything - funny right.
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post #57 of 78 Old 06-10-2019, 10:26 AM
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I can't say why the M105 'lost' to the LS50 in your particular case. It could be something happening below the transition frequency, it could be something else. Was this the active or passive LS50? I've seen measurements and the active version seems better behaved. Did you take any measurements of these systems? It may be subtle voicing differences as well. I compared the M105 to my Genelec 8030C and also slightly preferred the Genelecs in the living the room. This was a sighted test, so a word of caution. Both are fine loudspeakers. The M105 and the F206 have some slight on-axis ripples in the treble, that to my ears are fatiguing. I listen to mine at 15° off-axis - they sound and measure best that way (soundstage measured the F206). My Genelecs are pointed almost on-axis. I do find that the differences between recordings are more apparent on the M105. If you were to ask me which of the two is more likely to be a good studio monitor, I'd probably pick the Revels! The Genelecs sound 'good' with just about anything - funny right.
I did a pretty detailed write-up here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...evel-m105.html and show spatially averaged measurements of each around my couch. These were the passive LS50, the actives do seem to measure better. I actually listen to mine with a few PEQ filters to tame the highs a bit but for the test I didn't use them. I mention in the thread that while listening to both sighted I had them at a stalemate, they both sounded really good and I could live with either no problem, it was only blind where I could tell differences.

It's just had me thinking about the test the last few months because the M105 are much better behaved on axis and in the listening window but the LS50 do have a pretty good sound power and if you're not directly on-axis, which is how many people listen to them. I didn't have any fatigue with the M105 at all but one other benefit I can see with pointing speakers straight ahead is that the off-axis now becomes the direct sound and the early reflections will also be much closer to that "off-axis direct sound", which Dr. Toole has stated is beneficial.
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post #58 of 78 Old 06-15-2019, 03:19 PM
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Here is a great review of the S400:
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So I ordered in March with a E200 discount for the "preorder" delay until June. Chose to wait again until September for an additional E200 discount off the cost. About $600CDN off the price.

I'm going to use the cash towards an upgrade in my amplification.

I'm curious to what amplification are you guys giving these? They're hungry for juice that my ****ty old Denon just can't give them.

I was thinking a NAD 758/777, but then realized those things are 3 years old now, is a new line coming?

Same with the Anthems, their receivers are a few years old too.

Then I started wondering about separates. is there any good separates I can get into at a reduced cost that will make these babies sing? What's the forum consensus?

Would love to hear from others receiving theirs in June!
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post #60 of 78 Old 06-22-2019, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
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Listening Window looks really good...would this give ribbons a run for their money?



There do appear to be some resonances, but everyone loves the way they sound so far.
They do have a similar rising response of a RAAL so I bet people who like that type of sound(ie non-fatiguing, but detailed) would like these as well.
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