Buchardt S400’s - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 183 Old 10-08-2019, 05:12 PM
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I've seen it suggested these aren't going to sound as coherent in the near field, though I have not tried. It's probably not terrible with the waveguide though.
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post #122 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Exactly - no trade show "audiophile" one-note stuff here.

Do you own S400s? Were you blown away by the bass like many are? I'm not, but my reference point may be different than some. I do find them to be well-balanced but not bass-heavy. In fact they're throwing a lot more treble detail at me than I expected - I don't agree that this is a warm sounding speaker as some have characterized it to be. It is not bright, either. It seems to find a good middle ground and I appreciate that.
I would call them slightly warm to my ear. What gear do you use to power them? Just curious
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post #123 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 11:57 AM
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I would call them slightly warm to my ear. What gear do you use to power them? Just curious
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post #124 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 12:17 PM
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I've seen it suggested these aren't going to sound as coherent in the near field, though I have not tried. It's probably not terrible with the waveguide though.
I read that, but I also read a review on GearSlutz that mentioned setting them up about 1.3m away and they sounded great.

P.S. I just had to re-listen to those Chevelle and Tool tracks last night...yep, quite awesome -- even better than I remember, but I think the last time I gave them a listen I was in my old house. Hats Off to the Bull was my favorite, but not at first. At first, it sounded like all the sound was a razor-sharp center image with everything in a line. After listening to the other two tracks, also from that album, I was a bit perplexed. Then, just as the chorus kicked in it quite literally sounded like the stage was oozing out of the center to surround me. I didn't remember that happening my last listen -- it's incredible what a proper stereo setup can do, my last place I couldn't sit at the point of an equilateral triangle (WAF) and that probably helps a lot in this regard!
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post #125 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 12:29 PM
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I read that, but I also read a review on GearSlutz that mentioned setting them up about 1.3m away and they sounded great.

P.S. I just had to re-listen to those Chevelle and Tool tracks last night...yep, quite awesome -- even better than I remember, but I think the last time I gave them a listen I was in my old house. Hats Off to the Bull was my favorite, but not at first. At first, it sounded like all the sound was a razor-sharp center image with everything in a line. After listening to the other two tracks, also from that album, I was a bit perplexed. Then, just as the chorus kicked in it quite literally sounded like the stage was oozing out of the center to surround me. I didn't remember that happening my last listen -- it's incredible what a proper stereo setup can do, my last place I couldn't sit at the point of an equilateral triangle (WAF) and that probably helps a lot in this regard!
Something else in that vein - heavy instrumentation, quick panning movements, lot of layers and dynamics - is Mick Gordon's "BFG Division" track from the Doom 2016 soundtrack. Very heavy song with tons of minute details that show off a speaker's ability to resolve. I'd be interested to hear that track through something like the S400 given the low-frequency extension and overall reviews here and other places.
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post #126 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by KSpan View Post
Something else in that vein - heavy instrumentation, quick panning movements, lot of layers and dynamics - is Mick Gordon's "BFG Division" track from the Doom 2016 soundtrack. Very heavy song with tons of minute details that show off a speaker's ability to resolve. I'd be interested to hear that track through something like the S400 given the low-frequency extension and overall reviews here and other places.
I will have to check it out, assuming it's on either Amazon or Tidal. Though, at some point I should probably bow out of this thread since I don't own these speakers. I was just attracted to them based on their design and price-point and thought, as I said, about buying them for my little bro for his "studio".

P.S. I mis-remembered, he has ADAM and Tannoy (not Thiel as I thought) speakers there currently. Still think these would be a good addition and a different sound from both of those.

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post #127 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by KSpan View Post
Something else in that vein - heavy instrumentation, quick panning movements, lot of layers and dynamics - is Mick Gordon's "BFG Division" track from the Doom 2016 soundtrack. Very heavy song with tons of minute details that show off a speaker's ability to resolve. I'd be interested to hear that track through something like the S400 given the low-frequency extension and overall reviews here and other places.
I have that soundtrack. I'll try it, though I'm not sure it would help much since I'm the only one hearing it.
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post #128 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I read that, but I also read a review on GearSlutz that mentioned setting them up about 1.3m away and they sounded great.

P.S. I just had to re-listen to those Chevelle and Tool tracks last night...yep, quite awesome -- even better than I remember, but I think the last time I gave them a listen I was in my old house. Hats Off to the Bull was my favorite, but not at first. At first, it sounded like all the sound was a razor-sharp center image with everything in a line. After listening to the other two tracks, also from that album, I was a bit perplexed. Then, just as the chorus kicked in it quite literally sounded like the stage was oozing out of the center to surround me. I didn't remember that happening my last listen -- it's incredible what a proper stereo setup can do, my last place I couldn't sit at the point of an equilateral triangle (WAF) and that probably helps a lot in this regard!
I need to test the Buchardts against my Mackie MR624s. They're in different rooms but they seem tonally similar. The Mackies are my desktop setup.

Have you put the new Tool album through your system?
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post #129 of 183 Old 10-09-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I need to test the Buchardts against my Mackie MR624s. They're in different rooms but they seem tonally similar. The Mackies are my desktop setup.

Have you put the new Tool album through your system?
Be interested in your comparison. The Mackies would definitely be a cheaper gift option, lol!

I have listened to the new Tool album, but not 100% critically. On release night, I got through the first few tracks before my daughter woke up and needed tending to; I remember it sounding really great. Since then, I have put it on in the background a few times, but have yet to listen to it straight through, critically. I really should!
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post #130 of 183 Old 10-10-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by KSpan View Post
Something else in that vein - heavy instrumentation, quick panning movements, lot of layers and dynamics - is Mick Gordon's "BFG Division" track from the Doom 2016 soundtrack. Very heavy song with tons of minute details that show off a speaker's ability to resolve. I'd be interested to hear that track through something like the S400 given the low-frequency extension and overall reviews here and other places.
Put this on my setup (not these speakers, so off-topic, but wanted to respond) and...OMG, you're right. It was insane -- love to have someone more familiar with the song listen to see if I was getting everything, but it was definitely "dense" while still allowing most sounds to have their own defined "space" in the sound-stage. I was impressed!
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post #131 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 11:39 PM
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These S400s are so sharp on the attack and are very dynamic. I think that explains a lot of what I'm hearing from various types of music.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
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post #132 of 183 Old 10-25-2019, 06:36 PM
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There was some discussion earlier about the possible directivity mismatch at the crossover point and I think the clue that the dip only exists in the vertical plane is in the early reflections graph in their measurements:



Instead of including 1 curve in the Spin as the "Early reflections" they divided them into the floor, ceiling and sidewall early reflections and you can see the sidewall has no dip, the floor reflection shows the same dip. Most vertically aligned speakers have a similar dip and Dr. Toole has said that as long as the on-axis is flat, the brain fills in the dip making it mostly inaudible. All in all these seem to be very well designed speakers with all of the measurements you could ask for. I'm kinda surprised no one has noticed how similar the S400 is to the Revel M16, similar drivers, waveguide and measurements.
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post #133 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 02:02 AM
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My subs are boxed up so I'm back to full range (Large) on the Buchardts for a while.

I definitely miss the full-room, full-range bass from the Rythmiks. There is a little bit of content down to 20 Hz that is missing its impact, but there is less missing with these speakers than I would expect from a speaker its size. The passive radiator has good output down to 30 Hz which is just stupid good for the cabinet size.

I still have yet to use room correction. They sound great as-is and I'm really in no hurry to try to correct anything, though I'm well aware of the benefits it would bring to the bass region. I've never said that about a speaker before - this is my first jump to truly neutral, great-measuring speakers.

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post #134 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I'm kinda surprised no one has noticed how similar the S400 is to the Revel M16, similar drivers, waveguide and measurements.
Since the Buchards are about double the price (at least here in Europe) of the Revels, I would hope they also perform better?
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post #135 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bnaan View Post
Since the Buchards are about double the price (at least here in Europe) of the Revels, I would hope they also perform better?
I think the better comparison would be the Revel M106. I don't think the drivers or waveguide on the M16 are similar at all.

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post #136 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 01:12 PM
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One thing everyone needs to know about these speakers is that you are going to be billed about $300 by FedEx/CBP to import them. So add that to the cost of the speakers.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
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post #137 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 01:39 PM
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One thing everyone needs to know about these speakers is that you are going to be billed about $300 by FedEx/CBP to import them. So add that to the cost of the speakers.
I was not charged anything to import them. There was also a discussion about this on Facebook and most were not charged import duties/taxes. If I recall correctly, those that were charged had to pay fairly small sums...like $40. Those in Canada did have to pay more.

I got mine in July so not sure if there’s been any new tariffs since then that would have resulted in the different experience.

Stereo: Buchardt S400, Van Alstine Vision SET 400 & Transcendence 10RB, Schiit Bifrost.
Home Theater: Ascend Sierra 2 EX for LRC, Sierra Luna’s for rear, HTM-200s for front and top Atmos. Dual PSA 15S subs. Denon X6400 with Parasound HCA-1500A driving mains.

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post #138 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 01:48 PM
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I was not charged anything to import them. There was also a discussion about this on Facebook and most were not charged import duties/taxes. If I recall correctly, those that were charged had to pay fairly small sums...like $40. Those in Canada did have to pay more.
I guess I need to call FedEx about this bill, then. There are charges for duties and merchandise processing.

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post #139 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 02:03 PM
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I was not charged anything to import them. There was also a discussion about this on Facebook and most were not charged import duties/taxes. If I recall correctly, those that were charged had to pay fairly small sums...like $40. Those in Canada did have to pay more.
I guess I need to call FedEx about this bill, then. There are charges for duties and merchandise processing.
I was mailed an invoice from FedEx a few days after I took delivery but the total was $0.00. I’ll see if I can find it. You also may want to check in with Mads and see if anything has changed that would have resulted in that charge.

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post #140 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bnaan View Post
Since the Buchards are about double the price (at least here in Europe) of the Revels, I would hope they also perform better?
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I think the better comparison would be the Revel M106. I don't think the drivers or waveguide on the M16 are similar at all.
Possibly but we should all know by now that price isn't correlated very well to sound quality. The waveguide certainly isn't similar, I think it's much larger on the S400 because the tweeter is smaller which means a larger waveguide to match directivity at the crossover frequency. The performa 3 tweeter seems to roll off early while the M16 is extended and constant directivity after the crossover just like the S400. Both use SB acoustics Aluminum drivers but the S400 uses a smaller tweeter and a passive radiator which is a costlier option compared with a port, still quite a few similarities with the M16. I was just saying I see more similarities with the Revel design philosophy than Dynaudio, which is a good thing in my opinion.
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post #141 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 04:48 PM
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Possibly but we should all know by now that price isn't correlated very well to sound quality. The waveguide certainly isn't similar, I think it's much larger on the S400 because the tweeter is smaller which means a larger waveguide to match directivity at the crossover frequency. The performa 3 tweeter seems to roll off early while the M16 is extended and constant directivity after the crossover just like the S400. Both use SB acoustics Aluminum drivers but the S400 uses a smaller tweeter and a passive radiator which is a costlier option compared with a port, still quite a few similarities with the M16. I was just saying I see more similarities with the Revel design philosophy than Dynaudio, which is a good thing in my opinion.
Isn't the woofer more similar to the one in the M106?

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post #142 of 183 Old 10-26-2019, 05:48 PM
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Isn't the woofer more similar to the one in the M106?
I'm not sure how we'd really know since Revel uses somewhat proprietary drivers from SB acoustics but maybe, I'd say the M16 and M106 woofer is probably very similar too, the Concerta2 was designed after the Performa3 and I've heard it stated that they were very close in performance I believe from Kevin Voecks. Just based on measurements alone I think it would be an interesting comparison for someone to do.
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post #143 of 183 Old 10-27-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
One thing everyone needs to know about these speakers is that you are going to be billed about $300 by FedEx/CBP to import them. So add that to the cost of the speakers.
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I was not charged anything to import them. There was also a discussion about this on Facebook and most were not charged import duties/taxes. If I recall correctly, those that were charged had to pay fairly small sums...like $40. Those in Canada did have to pay more.

I got mine in July so not sure if there’s been any new tariffs since then that would have resulted in the different experience.
FedEx charged me ~$35 when I bought my s300's if I remember correctly. Thats to Michigan. I would definitely call them

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post #144 of 183 Old 10-27-2019, 10:53 PM
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I'm not sure how we'd really know since Revel uses somewhat proprietary drivers from SB acoustics but maybe, I'd say the M16 and M106 woofer is probably very similar too, the Concerta2 was designed after the Performa3 and I've heard it stated that they were very close in performance I believe from Kevin Voecks. Just based on measurements alone I think it would be an interesting comparison for someone to do.
Read somewhere that at least some Revel's drivers (like in f208 for example) are basically rather cheap stock SB, just custom anodized/painted

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post #145 of 183 Old 10-27-2019, 11:23 PM
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Read somewhere that at least some Revel's drivers (like in f208 for example) are basically rather cheap stock SB, just custom anodized/painted

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Possibly, but just like the S400 it shows that the engineering of the speaker is more important than shiny parts.
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post #146 of 183 Old 10-28-2019, 12:28 AM
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Possibly, but just like the S400 it shows that the engineering of the speaker is more important than shiny parts.
While I'm sold on revel scientific approach I'd rather see it combined with top of the line drivers and crossovers

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post #147 of 183 Old 10-28-2019, 06:55 AM
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While I'm sold on revel scientific approach I'd rather see it combined with top of the line drivers and crossovers
Not even Revel uses "top of the line" drivers in their speakers at this price.

And it is possible that the S400 crossover is of higher quality.
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post #148 of 183 Old 10-28-2019, 08:47 AM
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While I'm sold on revel scientific approach I'd rather see it combined with top of the line drivers and crossovers

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Not even Revel uses "top of the line" drivers in their speakers at this price.

And it is possible that the S400 crossover is of higher quality.
There are a few things about the S400 that seem to be very high quality. The crossover for sure, the aluminum waveguide isn't cheap, the passive radiator and possibly the cabinet, some of you who own it can chime in on that. One thing I notice about Revel speakers is they seem to cheap out on the cabinet, I'm sure they ran some fancy FEA analysis and found that it doesn't affect the sound quality but at 1k+, I kind of like a nice solid cabinet. I really doubt the M16 would beat the S400, I was just noticing they are pretty similar designs and measurements, and might be a good option for someone who can't afford the S400.
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post #149 of 183 Old 10-28-2019, 10:29 AM
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I think the S400 cabinet is good quality, but I would not call it "oak" solid. It has a bit of a sound with the knock test, though I'm not sure that's analogous to the complex physics involved when in actual use.

The crossover:

Quote:
If there's one area where companies tend to take shortcuts, it’s the crossover. Mainly because you don't see it.

Long story short, we don't play that game!

Not only was the crossover painstakingly designed, tweaked, and then tweaked again to make sure it's as good as it can be, we didn't spoil the effort by skimping on parts! We want these speakers to last a long time. This process not only involves selecting parts that fall within strict tolerances, it also meant source parts that would stand the test of time. On top of that, we want to make sure we selected parts that would deliver excellent performance. Should you ever peak inside the S400, you'll be greeted with parts that you won't typically find in a retail product at this price point. Metallized caps instead of the usual cheap electrolytic caps. Copper coils instead of iron. We didn't go excessive just for the sake of it. We budgeted our money towards the best component where it matters the most.

The result is the final key ingredient to the S400's performance – a damned fine crossover that puts the right signals in the right places as cleanly as possible. Not to brag, but we're quite proud of it!

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HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
PC: Micca OriGen G2 | Mackie MR624 (2)
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post #150 of 183 Old 10-28-2019, 11:55 AM
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They're using the same Bennic poly caps and resistors I used in the BMR (though I did upgrade the tweeter cap), and air core coils all around. The only questionable item is the 47 uF NPE woofer cap, but I suspect they did that as much to save space as to lower cost.
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