Recommendation for 5.1 speakers under $10k - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
If you think the Revel 208s are 3 times better than the 95F and still not that impressive I think you might need to start looking at 5 or even 6 figure priced speakers to be impressed lol.

Perhaps he’d like the F228’s. Those Beryllium tweeters have to be magic. I want to hear one so bad.

Wait I think his Focals have a Be tweeter do they not?

Also perhaps a Raal tweeter is what he’s looking for...

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #32 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Milliron View Post
I wouldn’t say I didn’t find them impressive. They’re totally worth the money and they’re gorgeous to boot. But I found their mids a little masked. But that could very well have been the amplification. I’d want to hear them through a dedicated amp/preamp first. But no, they were very high on my list. But I suppose I can be picky. It’s OK—I don’t expect perfection from any speaker.
You have good ears; here's the measurements in the link.

Big dip between 2khz and 5khz.

Many far less expensive speakers in that link measure better.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=16&Itemid=140

Geoff A. J., California
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post #33 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
You have good ears; here's the measurements in the link.



Big dip between 2khz and 5khz.



Many far less expensive speakers in that link measure better.



https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=16&Itemid=140

I can’t seem to find the F208 link Geoff! My eyes are going bad already

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #34 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I can’t seem to find the F208 link Geoff! My eyes are going bad already
Oh, I thought he was referring to the Paradigm 95F.

They did measure the Revel F206 and it measured near perfectly.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #35 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Oh, I thought he was referring to the Paradigm 95F.



They did measure the Revel F206 and it measured near perfectly.

No, he was responding to driedmango after he drew the conclusion that the F208’s weren’t impressive to him.

But yes, Revel did a phenomenal job with their speakers. Makes me wonder how the hell I’m supposed to match that :P We shall see what I can come up with in due time. Got lots of plans this summer

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #36 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
If you think the Revel 208s are 3 times better than the 95F and still not that impressive I think you might need to start looking at 5 or even 6 figure priced speakers to be impressed lol.

Perhaps he’d like the F228’s. Those Beryllium tweeters have to be magic. I want to hear one so bad.

Wait I think his Focals have a Be tweeter do they not?

Also perhaps a Raal tweeter is what he’s looking for...
My Focals do not have beryllium tweeters. Those are Electras, which are very nice. They are a bit more money than I wanted to spend. I went with Arias, which have flax drivers.
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post #37 of 52 Old 03-19-2019, 09:17 PM
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Another vote for Revel. I was in a similar position to you and went with 4x Revel F206’s and a C208.

It should definitely be possible to find a dealer willing to work with you on pricing.
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post #38 of 52 Old 03-20-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
No, he was responding to driedmango after he drew the conclusion that the F208’s weren’t impressive to him.

But yes, Revel did a phenomenal job with their speakers. Makes me wonder how the hell I’m supposed to match that :P We shall see what I can come up with in due time. Got lots of plans this summer
Plenty of brands on that Soundstage measurements page that measure as well as Revel; a few off the top of my head are PSB, Ascend and Selah Audio but there are others.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #39 of 52 Old 03-20-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Plenty of brands on that Soundstage measurements page that measure as well as Revel; a few off the top of my head are PSB, Ascend and Selah Audio but there are others.
... and at the risk of starting another shooting war, there is more to how a speaker sounds than just it's measurements.
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post #40 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 02:26 AM
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... and at the risk of starting another shooting war, there is more to how a speaker sounds than just it's measurements.
Decades of scientific research show that measurements have a very high correlation with sound quality. You don't think its important to consider buying speakers that measure well? Should a speaker that measures poorly still be considered for people who want accuracy and high sound quality? There are a lot of expensive "audiophile" speakers that measure, and therefore sound, bad.

Also, I think if your only consideration is sound quality, some of the brands that measure well would make good options. If you want speakers that can play loud, clean, without distortion or compression for home theater....I'd steer away from typical retail low efficiency speakers and possibly consider higher efficiency speakers. On Sounstagenetwork.com, almost all speakers are tested for distortion at the 90 dB level. This is 15 below reference....not terribly loud for movies. Most speakers tested are already showing substantial distortion at this sweep level....only a select few were retested at 95 dB due to having fairly low distortion at the 90 dB drive level.

To play devils advocate, many people will say they would never listen louder than -15, -10, whatever...that its just too loud. The counter argument is that it isn't just too loud, but that the majority of normal retail speakers will start compressing and distorting with level as low as 10-15 below reference, which makes things sound louder and uncomfortable to listen to. Do a little reading on threads in which people have switched from normal hi-fi type speakers to home theater oriented(high efficiency) speakers, and they are able to listen louder more comfortably.

90 dB might also sound too loud for many people, but this isn't continuous or average. 70 dB average listening level requires 90 dB peaks from each speaker for home theater. I agree sound quality is very important when considering a speaker, but no speaker will sound good distorting, compressing, and clipping ones amp. Therefore I believe it is important to select a speaker first and foremost that will support ones desired SPL without distortion, compression, clipping etc. And be careful not to limit yourself on previous max listening levels as there is a high probability that this was due to lack of capability.

If the loudest I ever wanted to watch movies was say, -15, no matter what, ever, I would be considering several of the retail brands that measure, and therefore sound, extremely good. But when even the most expensive retail speakers are not tested any higher than 10 below reference due to substantial distortion already setting in, it makes sense to me to look at speakers that have higher clean playback capability.

Also, the 90 dB distortion measurements are taken at a distance of 2m..I suspect most people sit further away than that, which would require even more capability, or reduce the level at which the speakers being tested can play cleanly. I say this to reinforce the point that it doesn't take a huge room or volumes as high as you might think for most retail speakers to hit high levels of distortion.
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post #41 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
... and at the risk of starting another shooting war, there is more to how a speaker sounds than just it's measurements.
That is true but the correlation between good measurements and positive results have been shown to be at the 85 percent level IIRC.

So, yes, 15% of people in blind testing prefer the speaker with less linear response.

I'm suggesting using measurements as a tool to cut down on the number of choices to audition, (ideally at home), is a very solid strategy.

I've been at 5.1 since 1986, predating AVRs and dedicated center channels, and have always found in my "normal" home environment that "normal" speakers with a good sub provide excellent results at the not ear splitting volume levels I listen at, (but loud enough to hear outside).

If I was looking at a much larger room situation or dedicated home theater with multiple rows etc. then I'd be narrowing my search further to higher sensitivity speakers with high SPL capabilities as suggested in another response.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #42 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 11:10 AM
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@bear123 is correct. Speaker measurements may not be ALL of it, but it sure does account for a LOT of it.

Check out this link:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-a...be-f228be.html

That’s 32% off a new pair of $10000 Towers. The second best by Revel. I don’t think these can be beat, especially at their price. And if you ask him, since this guy clearly knows a dealer, he can probably find a way to supply a full 5.1 system at a great discount. You’d be getting like a $15000 system for $10000. If that’s not a great deal I dunno what is OP

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #43 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Decades of scientific research show that measurements have a very high correlation with sound quality. You don't think its important to consider buying speakers that measure well? Should a speaker that measures poorly still be considered for people who want accuracy and high sound quality? There are a lot of expensive "audiophile" speakers that measure, and therefore sound, bad.

Also, I think if your only consideration is sound quality, some of the brands that measure well would make good options. If you want speakers that can play loud, clean, without distortion or compression for home theater....I'd steer away from typical retail low efficiency speakers and possibly consider higher efficiency speakers. On Sounstagenetwork.com, almost all speakers are tested for distortion at the 90 dB level. This is 15 below reference....not terribly loud for movies. Most speakers tested are already showing substantial distortion at this sweep level....only a select few were retested at 95 dB due to having fairly low distortion at the 90 dB drive level.

To play devils advocate, many people will say they would never listen louder than -15, -10, whatever...that its just too loud. The counter argument is that it isn't just too loud, but that the majority of normal retail speakers will start compressing and distorting with level as low as 10-15 below reference, which makes things sound louder and uncomfortable to listen to. Do a little reading on threads in which people have switched from normal hi-fi type speakers to home theater oriented(high efficiency) speakers, and they are able to listen louder more comfortably.

90 dB might also sound too loud for many people, but this isn't continuous or average. 70 dB average listening level requires 90 dB peaks from each speaker for home theater. I agree sound quality is very important when considering a speaker, but no speaker will sound good distorting, compressing, and clipping ones amp. Therefore I believe it is important to select a speaker first and foremost that will support ones desired SPL without distortion, compression, clipping etc. And be careful not to limit yourself on previous max listening levels as there is a high probability that this was due to lack of capability.

If the loudest I ever wanted to watch movies was say, -15, no matter what, ever, I would be considering several of the retail brands that measure, and therefore sound, extremely good. But when even the most expensive retail speakers are not tested any higher than 10 below reference due to substantial distortion already setting in, it makes sense to me to look at speakers that have higher clean playback capability.
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there is more to how a speaker sounds than just it's measurements.
Is there anything about my statement that is false? If not, then we have no argument. Science is a tool in the pursuit of understanding. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let's not sidetrack this thread any further ... nobody is going to gain anything by re-hashing the same old trite Objectivist vs. Subjectivist arguments.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #44 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
That is true but the correlation between good measurements and positive results have been shown to be at the 85 percent level IIRC.

So, yes, 15% of people in blind testing prefer the speaker with less linear response.

I'm suggesting using measurements as a tool to cut down on the number of choices to audition, (ideally at home), is a very solid strategy.

I've been at 5.1 since 1986, predating AVRs and dedicated center channels, and have always found in my "normal" home environment that "normal" speakers with a good sub provide excellent results at the not ear splitting volume levels I listen at, (but loud enough to hear outside).

If I was looking at a much larger room situation or dedicated home theater with multiple rows etc. then I'd be narrowing my search further to higher sensitivity speakers with high SPL capabilities as suggested in another response.
This makes sense.

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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Is there anything about my statement that is false? If not, then we have no argument. Science is a tool in the pursuit of understanding. Nothing more, nothing less.
Im not 100% sure. However, I definitely think they have their place as gajCA stated. I think they can be helpful to rule out inaccurate or poorly measuring speakers, and helpful to choose which speakers to audition.

You deleted a response in which you mentioned something about compression drivers. You don't like how they sound? Can you share your thoughts about this?

Thanks.
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post #45 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
This makes sense.



Im not 100% sure. However, I definitely think they have their place as gajCA stated. I think they can be helpful to rule out inaccurate or poorly measuring speakers, and helpful to choose which speakers to audition.

You deleted a response in which you mentioned something about compression drivers. You don't like how they sound? Can you share your thoughts about this?

Thanks.
No, I deleted it for a reason. Let's not spend time on this subject, as it does not pertain to the OP's topic.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #46 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
That is true but the correlation between good measurements and positive results have been shown to be at the 85 percent level IIRC.

So, yes, 15% of people in blind testing prefer the speaker with less linear response.

I'm suggesting using measurements as a tool to cut down on the number of choices to audition, (ideally at home), is a very solid strategy.

I've been at 5.1 since 1986, predating AVRs and dedicated center channels, and have always found in my "normal" home environment that "normal" speakers with a good sub provide excellent results at the not ear splitting volume levels I listen at, (but loud enough to hear outside).

If I was looking at a much larger room situation or dedicated home theater with multiple rows etc. then I'd be narrowing my search further to higher sensitivity speakers with high SPL capabilities as suggested in another response.
I think the bigger issue is, unless you plan on using all of these speakers as nearfield monitors, the stock measurements don't really tell you too much about how they will sound when dealing with power compression. Measuring these at 97cm is basically like listening to computer speakers at your desk. But in a HT setup that's say 10-15 feet away, the differences in behavior between these speakers will start amplifying while playing dynamic material.
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post #47 of 52 Old 03-21-2019, 09:25 PM
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No, I deleted it for a reason. Let's not spend time on this subject, as it does not pertain to the OP's topic.

Wow. I never thought I’d see the day!

Kudos to you man. A hero in citizen’s clothing.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #48 of 52 Old 03-23-2019, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a couple of appointments next weekend to audition a bunch of stuff. Will report back after. No shops have both the revel and prestige so can't do side by side. Will also check out imagine and a few others. Leaning away from kef because they don't make a dipole/bipole surround anymore. My side surround mounting situation is less than ideal (up high near ceiling) so I really think I need the diffuse sound from a bipole.
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post #49 of 52 Old 03-30-2019, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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So I went to 2 shops today. Heard the prestige 85F and revel F206 in the same room, powered by an Anthem AVR. Also heard a 5.1 system with the prestiges there. The paradigms were a little too bright for me in this room. Even before trying the Revels, I noticed the top end was a little forward. Not harsh per se, but just a little too much of it. I listened with recordings I know VERY well, and have heard on many systems including a number of studio monitors and other hifi speakers. They paradigms were exciting, dynamic, clean, powerful, but just a little hyped for me. The revels were much sweeter, but in that room, lacked the impact and bass slam of the prestiges. However, I then listened to both the 206 and 208 in a different shop (albeit with better amplification). The 206s sounded even better there - silky up top and plenty of quite low bass - I wasn't missing a sub with them like I was at the first shop. The difference was likely the room; I doubt the amplification could make anywhere near that much difference. The 206 held up surprisingly well to the 208s and were quite similar - I could easily live with them. However, the 208 went just a bit deeper and sounded "bigger' I guess.

So my plan is a Revel system around the F208. I'm glad for the recommendations on this forum.
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post #50 of 52 Old 03-30-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
So I went to 2 shops today. Heard the prestige 85F and revel F206 in the same room, powered by an Anthem AVR. Also heard a 5.1 system with the prestiges there. The paradigms were a little too bright for me in this room. Even before trying the Revels, I noticed the top end was a little forward. Not harsh per se, but just a little too much of it. I listened with recordings I know VERY well, and have heard on many systems including a number of studio monitors and other hifi speakers. They paradigms were exciting, dynamic, clean, powerful, but just a little hyped for me. The revels were much sweeter, but in that room, lacked the impact and bass slam of the prestiges. However, I then listened to both the 206 and 208 in a different shop (albeit with better amplification). The 206s sounded even better there - silky up top and plenty of quite low bass - I wasn't missing a sub with them like I was at the first shop. The difference was likely the room; I doubt the amplification could make anywhere near that much difference. The 206 held up surprisingly well to the 208s and were quite similar - I could easily live with them. However, the 208 went just a bit deeper and sounded "bigger' I guess.

So my plan is a Revel system around the F208. I'm glad for the recommendations on this forum.

I really hope that the dealer had the room Correction for the Anthem AVR (ARC)
Disabled/turned off for your demo. The room Correction if enabled one way or the
Other could make a pretty big difference on what you heard.

(Former Anthem AVR owner)

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post #51 of 52 Old 03-30-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
So I went to 2 shops today. Heard the prestige 85F and revel F206 in the same room, powered by an Anthem AVR. Also heard a 5.1 system with the prestiges there. The paradigms were a little too bright for me in this room. Even before trying the Revels, I noticed the top end was a little forward. Not harsh per se, but just a little too much of it. I listened with recordings I know VERY well, and have heard on many systems including a number of studio monitors and other hifi speakers. They paradigms were exciting, dynamic, clean, powerful, but just a little hyped for me. The revels were much sweeter, but in that room, lacked the impact and bass slam of the prestiges. However, I then listened to both the 206 and 208 in a different shop (albeit with better amplification). The 206s sounded even better there - silky up top and plenty of quite low bass - I wasn't missing a sub with them like I was at the first shop. The difference was likely the room; I doubt the amplification could make anywhere near that much difference. The 206 held up surprisingly well to the 208s and were quite similar - I could easily live with them. However, the 208 went just a bit deeper and sounded "bigger' I guess.



So my plan is a Revel system around the F208. I'm glad for the recommendations on this forum.

Glad you went out and heard some speakers.

Those F208’s are a good choice. Definitely my pick in this price range.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #52 of 52 Old 03-31-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
So I went to 2 shops today. Heard the prestige 85F and revel F206 in the same room, powered by an Anthem AVR. Also heard a 5.1 system with the prestiges there. The paradigms were a little too bright for me in this room. Even before trying the Revels, I noticed the top end was a little forward. Not harsh per se, but just a little too much of it. I listened with recordings I know VERY well, and have heard on many systems including a number of studio monitors and other hifi speakers. They paradigms were exciting, dynamic, clean, powerful, but just a little hyped for me. The revels were much sweeter, but in that room, lacked the impact and bass slam of the prestiges. However, I then listened to both the 206 and 208 in a different shop (albeit with better amplification). The 206s sounded even better there - silky up top and plenty of quite low bass - I wasn't missing a sub with them like I was at the first shop. The difference was likely the room; I doubt the amplification could make anywhere near that much difference. The 206 held up surprisingly well to the 208s and were quite similar - I could easily live with them. However, the 208 went just a bit deeper and sounded "bigger' I guess.

So my plan is a Revel system around the F208. I'm glad for the recommendations on this forum.
Great choice.

Brent Butterworth's take:

"Of course, I know I'll never find - or at least never be able to afford - the perfect speaker, but I think the Performa3 F208 and F206 are as close as I'm going to get.

That's why I bought a pair.

Which did I choose?

I like the F208 better overall; I'd probably rate the F206's performance at 4.5 stars compared with the F208's five-star rating.

Yet I chose the F206. That's partly because I already have a great Hsu Research VTF-15H sub I can use with it, and partly because I need something I can wrestle up onto my speaker measurement stand on occasion, and the F206 is 21 pounds lighter.

And, I'll confess, partly because the F206 is available in white and the F208 isn't."


https://hometheaterreview.com/revel-...viewed/?page=2

Geoff A. J., California
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