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post #1 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 02:28 AM - Thread Starter
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3 6.5” vs 2 8” vs 1 12”

Hey All.

I don’t have a good way of comparing the intracies of floor speakers so I’m hoping I can get some expert opinion and feedback.

When looking at speakers in the $500/each range, there are a few configurations that all have similar low end frequency response. In my scenario, let’s assume all have a low end response of 30Hz. How will the various sized woofers sound/feel? If I enjoy strong bass (and don’t like having a dedicated subwoofer), will I be disappointed in the 3 6.5” woofer speakers? Or is 30Hz 30Hz regardless of config?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 07:14 AM
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That’s the thing. All of those different configurations are not going to have the same Fs. The 12” will have the lowest Fs out of them (resonate frequency) while the 6.5” has the lowest. Adding multiple woofers does not lower Fs, it only increases efficiency.

Okay despite that here are some things to look at:

The 12” will be the hardest to crossover with the tweeter requiring an unusually low crossover of around 1000hz but puts a lot of stress on the tweeter which is why horn loading/compression drivers are common for this situation. A midrange driver to fill the gap would also be adequate.

On the flip side, the 6.5” would be the easiest to crossover with the tweeter, likely being crossed over around 2-3khz. No midrange or special tricks needed here.

It’s hard to tell which one is definitively better without looking at the full setup. Also not each 12” is going to sound the same, you have to actually listen to them as numbers really are just numbers.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #3 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ApexHum View Post
Hey All.

I don’t have a good way of comparing the intracies of floor speakers so I’m hoping I can get some expert opinion and feedback.

When looking at speakers in the $500/each range, there are a few configurations that all have similar low end frequency response. In my scenario, let’s assume all have a low end response of 30Hz. How will the various sized woofers sound/feel? If I enjoy strong bass (and don’t like having a dedicated subwoofer), will I be disappointed in the 3 6.5” woofer speakers? Or is 30Hz 30Hz regardless of config?

Thanks.
To complicate matters further 30hz for a $1000/pair range is, um, a pipe dream.

Probably closer to 40hz which still isn't bad.

The new RP 8000 was tested and its bass extension is excellent and they claim -3db at 32hz which isn't really the case but nevertheless the nice slow dropoff is impressive.

There IS decent extension to 40hz and then a dropoff but still excellent albeit not as good as their spec.

But in an actual room it may indeed the case so there is that.

https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion


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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
To complicate matters further 30hz for a $1000/pair range is, um, a pipe dream.

Probably closer to 40hz which still isn't bad.

The new RP 8000 was tested and its bass extension is excellent and they claim -3db at 32hz which isn't really the case but nevertheless the nice slow dropoff is impressive.

There IS decent extension to 40hz and then a dropoff but still excellent albeit not as good as their spec.

But in an actual room it may indeed the case so there is that.
Thanks for those links.

This is one of the speakers I’m considering. There’s also a 15” variant, but frequency response is the same.

Cerwin Vega SL12

cerwinvega.com/home-audio/floorstanding-speakers/sl-12.html
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Thanks for those links.

This is one of the speakers I’m considering. There’s also a 15” variant, but frequency response is the same.

Cerwin Vega SL12

cerwinvega.com/home-audio/floorstanding-speakers/sl-12.html
The new Klipsch RPs are first rate.

I'd equate Cerwin Vega more with the lower R line from Klipsch.

You would do very well with RP6000 as Klipsch says it plays almost as low as the RP8000 and the 6 1/2" woofers will play nicer with the tweeter as likely the crossover point is a bit higher, (that's generally a good thing).

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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
To complicate matters further 30hz for a $1000/pair range is, um, a pipe dream.

Probably closer to 40hz which still isn't bad.

The new RP 8000 was tested and its bass extension is excellent and they claim -3db at 32hz which isn't really the case but nevertheless the nice slow dropoff is impressive.

There IS decent extension to 40hz and then a dropoff but still excellent albeit not as good as their spec.

But in an actual room it may indeed the case so there is that.

https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion

Wait, Klipsh lied about the specs/performance of their speakers???? No way!!!
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Wait, Klipsh lied about the specs/performance of their speakers???? No way!!!

Not really. Efficiency and extension is measured anechoic and they add +6dB to simulate room gain as they do note that these measurements are in room. They aren’t lying, just showing off the potential and likely performance in a room.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 02:45 PM
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Not really. Efficiency and extension is measured anechoic and they add +6dB to simulate room gain as they do note that these measurements are in room. They aren’t lying, just showing off the potential and likely performance in a room.
From most of what I've seen, they just list an efficiency spec without clarifying to the customer how they inflated it above actual measured specs. I mean, I think Klipsch seems to perform fine for the price compared to competitors, so I just don't see the need to lie. If your marketing department lists sensitivity as 96dB, and a reputable third party tester reveals actual sensitivity to be below 90 dB, thats just false advertising imo. Again, not saying they are bad speakers, but they are definitely lying about specs when tests are always 5-6 dB below advertising, and extension is off by 20 Hz(such as claiming -3dB of 48Hz when actual is 66. Room gain won't fix that big of a lie.
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Originally Posted by ApexHum View Post
Thanks for those links.

This is one of the speakers I’m considering. There’s also a 15” variant, but frequency response is the same.

Cerwin Vega SL12

cerwinvega.com/home-audio/floorstanding-speakers/sl-12.html
Cerwin Vega will rumble the floor and get stupid loud, but lack refinement and detail. You'd get a much more balanced sound with 6.5" and subwoofer. A subwoofer will play the low end a lot more efficiently which would allow your speakers to do what they do best, the mids and highs. If you can't have a subwoofer, Kef Q900/950's, and the above mentioned Klipsch would be good options as you'd still get down to about 40hz, yet still have good detail and clarity.
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3 6.5” vs 2 8” vs 1 12”

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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
From most of what I've seen, they just list an efficiency spec without clarifying to the customer how they inflated it above actual measured specs. I mean, I think Klipsch seems to perform fine for the price compared to competitors, so I just don't see the need to lie. If your marketing department lists sensitivity as 96dB, and a reputable third party tester reveals actual sensitivity to be below 90 dB, thats just false advertising imo. Again, not saying they are bad speakers, but they are definitely lying about specs when tests are always 5-6 dB below advertising, and extension is off by 20 Hz(such as claiming -3dB of 48Hz when actual is 66. Room gain won't fix that big of a lie.

Like I said, they consistently add 6dB. This is the maximum amount of boundary gain possible. So again, not lying, they are being more realistic than not and they don’t claim that it’s anechoic.

And I’d also guess that when you add 6dB of extension to an F3 of 66hz, you can probably reach 48hz.

You are more than welcome to say that they’re lying, but it’s consistent across the board, and I know they aren’t picking numbers out their asses.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #11 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 03:26 PM
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Like I said, they consistently add 6dB. This is the maximum amount of boundary gain possible. So again, not lying, they are being more realistic than not and they don’t claim that it’s anechoic.

And I’d also guess that when you add 6dB of extension to an F3 of 66hz, you can probably reach 48hz.

You are more than welcome to say that they’re lying, but it’s consistent across the board, and I know they aren’t picking numbers out their asses.
Sorry, I disagree. Lying about all your speakers by the same amount doesn't mean you aren't lying. Do you really believe putting a Klipsch speaker in your room will give the average user +6 dB efficiency? Why would a reputable company like Ascend list their in room and anechoic efficiency as being only a single dB or so apart? I think their marketing department knows a lot of people will see their false rating of 92 dB, a competitors honest rating of say, 88 dB, and think, hmm..the Klipsch is more efficient. They both sound pretty good, I'll get the Klipsch.

Personally, due to such misleading and blatantly false advertising, I would never purchase new from Klipsch as a matter of principle, even if the ACTUAL specs were acceptable to me. Their real specs are fine, I honestly see no reason to lie or misrepresent or mislead the consumer.(other than the extra sales it probably generates due to the falsely inflated specs compared to competitors)
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post #12 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 03:41 PM
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Sorry, I disagree. Lying about all your speakers by the same amount doesn't mean you aren't lying. Do you really believe putting a Klipsch speaker in your room will give the average user +6 dB efficiency? Why would a reputable company like Ascend list their in room and anechoic efficiency as being only a single dB or so apart? I think their marketing department knows a lot of people will see their false rating of 92 dB, a competitors honest rating of say, 88 dB, and think, hmm..the Klipsch is more efficient. They both sound pretty good, I'll get the Klipsch.



Personally, due to such misleading and blatantly false advertising, I would never purchase new from Klipsch as a matter of principle, even if the ACTUAL specs were acceptable to me. Their real specs are fine, I honestly see no reason to lie or misrepresent or mislead the consumer.(other than the extra sales it probably generates due to the falsely inflated specs compared to competitors)

Well you have to think about Ascend vs Klipsch. How likely are Klipsch owners to shove their speakers in the corner? Now how likely are Ascend owners to shove their speakers in corners. I’ll tell you this, if you’ve found Ascend, it isn’t because you randomly searched speakers. Klipsch on the other hand... I mean they have speakers designed to be put in the corner!

I’d throw a wild guess that most people buy Klipsch because they see it online, or in Best Buy, not because it’s actually half decent like we know. And those same people aren’t going to care enough to bring them out from the corners, toe them in, and forward 2 feet to get the best SQ possible. Ascend owners on the other hand...

Anyways back to my point, sorry for rambling. Klipsch Owners are more likely to put the speakers in the room corners where you can get a LOT of room gain. Ascend owners are more likely to care about placement and best placement is going to be away from corners, and away from walls, so you really don’t get nearly as much boundary gain as corner loading.

That’s my thoughts. Feel free to disagree but that’s what I’m thinking.

But I agree, sales definitely have their foot in this. But I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable, unlike some DefTech specs...

Single digit bass extension from a cube and some passive radiators!
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #13 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I disagree. Lying about all your speakers by the same amount doesn't mean you aren't lying. Do you really believe putting a Klipsch speaker in your room will give the average user +6 dB efficiency? Why would a reputable company like Ascend list their in room and anechoic efficiency as being only a single dB or so apart? I think their marketing department knows a lot of people will see their false rating of 92 dB, a competitors honest rating of say, 88 dB, and think, hmm..the Klipsch is more efficient. They both sound pretty good, I'll get the Klipsch.

Personally, due to such misleading and blatantly false advertising, I would never purchase new from Klipsch as a matter of principle, even if the ACTUAL specs were acceptable to me. Their real specs are fine, I honestly see no reason to lie or misrepresent or mislead the consumer.(other than the extra sales it probably generates due to the falsely inflated specs compared to competitors)
I’d be willing to bet that 90%+ of Klipsch customers just see the orange woofers and design and buy based on that and the decent reviews they get. Most of the people on a forum like this are the exception to a customer. It doesn’t make their “false advertising” any less false, but I honestly doubt it is driving people en masse to choose them over Polks at Best Buy.
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post #14 of 43 Old 03-23-2019, 05:55 PM
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...Klipsch Owners are more likely to put the speakers in the room corners where you can get a LOT of room gain...
Really? I don't think so, that seems an injustice to Klipsch owners. It would make an interesting owner survey I guess. Klipsch are pretty much selling towers and bookshelf speakers. I don't understand why you think people would put them in corners more than any other towers or bookshelf speakers (just because they make the Klipschorn?). And anyway, even in a corner, the room only reinforces the bass, not the midrange.

Their only model which is actually designed for corners is the Klipschorn, which according to science, Paul Klipsch's ghost, and a wild-assed guess comprise less than 1% of their turnover. That model is specified* as 105 dB/2.83V/1m, which would be 20% efficiency, which is really high. Is it? I couldn't find anyone who had actually measured this thing, just a lot of speculation. I did find an impedance curve** which shows you might concede it is "8 ohms." Even for this model it makes no sense to add "room gain"-it should properly be measured in a room in the first place.

For other models, there is NO REASON to be adding +6 dB for "room gain" except marketing lies. Other reputable brands are not all running around adding "room gain" which let me say as a loudspeaker engineer is a stupid concept anyway since it only applies to low frequencies-out of scope of what a sensitivity spec should be if we follow all the way back to Dick Small's original thesis. And from examining their spec sheets, Klipsch do NOT generally add a footnote about the room, plus as everyone (including Klipsch) well knows, such footnotes rarely get quoted into print or comparison charts, like this
https://www.crutchfield.com/Product/...s=01|991R700GB
https://f072605def1c9a5ef179-a0bc3fb...-Sheet_v01.pdf
which makes the Klipsch look WAY more sensitive...but if you took out the +6 "room gain" would not be that much more than the KEF.

Anyway, the reason people like me get so bugged about this is we believe Klipsch purposely and cynically inflates their specs just to make them look better in comparison, not for any truly valid acoustic reason, and attached irrelevant rationale to justify that. They are one of the reasons I tell people that all speaker specifications are pretty much unusable bull poop.

*see https://f072605def1c9a5ef179-a0bc3fbf1884fc0965506ae2b946e1cd.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/product-specsheets/Klipschorn-2018-Spec-Sheet-v02.pdf

https://f072605def1c9a5ef179-a0bc3fb...-Sheet_v01.pdf


**https://community.klipsch.com/index....edance-curves/
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If I enjoy strong bass (and don’t like having a dedicated subwoofer), will I be disappointed in the 3 6.5” woofer speakers? Or is 30Hz 30Hz regardless of config?
As I just noted, sorry, but speakers specifications are pretty useless. You absolutely cannot compare them across different brands. And sometimes even within the same brand they are not comparable. Speakers vary so much that your question is rather meaningless, because the ultimate performance depends on so many factors. My buddy's 3x6.5" Focal 936 definitely produce clean powerful low bass...but they aren't going to reproduce Van Halen in concert. An old MTX or Cerwin-Vega with a 12" and horn might sound more like that, but not as good with other music. And such designs probably won't play as low as his Focals due to tuning.

@Russdawg1 is SO right, it depends on specifics. 3x6.5" and 2x8" and 1x12" all have roughly similar cone areas. But you could have a cheap 12" without much excursion which would not play as loud as a design with 3 very long throw 6.5s. A better question would be to focus on budget and specific models you're looking at, and ask about those.
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As I just noted, sorry, but speakers specifications are pretty useless. You absolutely cannot compare them across different brands. And sometimes even within the same brand they are not comparable. Speakers vary so much that your question is rather meaningless, because the ultimate performance depends on so many factors. My buddy's 3x6.5" Focal 936 definitely produce clean powerful low bass...but they aren't going to reproduce Van Halen in concert. An old MTX or Cerwin-Vega with a 12" and horn might sound more like that, but not as good with other music. And such designs probably won't play as low as his Focals due to tuning.

@Russdawg1 is SO right, it depends on specifics. 3x6.5" and 2x8" and 1x12" all have roughly similar cone areas. But you could have a cheap 12" without much excursion which would not play as loud as a design with 3 very long throw 6.5s. A better question would be to focus on budget and specific models you're looking at, and ask about those.
I played jazz saxophone at a very high level through grad school. I DON’T need the type of clarity required to fully enjoy the intricacies and SQ of music. I don’t want muddy sound, but it doesn’t have to be perfect.

I want whatever can get me closest to the CV LS12s I had in 1999. Loud, good mids, and full of bass. Budget up to $500/speaker.
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Really? I don't think so. It would make an interesting owner survey I guess, but why would it be so? They are pretty much selling towers and bookshelf speakers which don't go in corners. I don't understand why you think people would put them in corners more than any other towers or bookshelf speakers. And anyway, the room only reinforces the bass, not the midrange.



The only model which is actually designed for corners is the Klipschorn, which according to science, Paul Klipsch's ghost, and a wild-assed guess comprise less than 1% of their turnover. That model is specified* as 105 dB/2.83V/1m, which would be 20% efficiency, which is really high. Is it? I couldn't find anyone who had actually measured this thing, just a lot of speculation. I did find an impedance curve** which shows you might concede it is "8 ohms." Even for this model it makes no sense to add "room gain"-it should properly be measured in a room in the first place.



For other models, there is NO REASON to be adding +6 dB for "room gain" except marketing lies. Other reputable brands are not all running around adding "room gain" which let me say as a loudspeaker engineer is a stupid concept anyway since it only applies to low frequencies-out of scope of what a sensitivity spec should be if we follow all the way back to Dick Small's original thesis. And from examining their spec sheets, Klipsch do NOT generally add a footnote about the room, plus as everyone (including Klipsch) well knows, such footnotes rarely get quoted into print or comparison charts, like this

https://www.crutchfield.com/Product/...s=01|991R700GB

https://f072605def1c9a5ef179-a0bc3fb...-Sheet_v01.pdf

which makes the Klipsch look WAY more sensitive...but if you took out the +6 "room gain" would not be that much more than the KEF.



Anyway, the reason people like me get so bugged about this is we believe Klipsch purposely and cynically inflates their specs just to make them look better in comparison, not for any truly valid acoustic reason, and attached irrelevant rationale to justify that. They are one of the reasons I tell people that all speaker specifications are pretty much unusable bull poop.







*see https://f072605def1c9a5ef179-a0bc3fbf1884fc0965506ae2b946e1cd.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/product-specsheets/Klipschorn-2018-Spec-Sheet-v02.pdf



https://f072605def1c9a5ef179-a0bc3fb...-Sheet_v01.pdf





**https://community.klipsch.com/index....edance-curves/

You don’t think the common person would say “Stick it in a corner cause it takes up the least amount of space” or the wife would force the husband to? I guess my point and ego is trying to say that is Ascend owners are special which is not true at all making my point pretty moot.

Fair enough. Just speculation, I guess, but the +6dB is consistent for everything I’ve seen. Both Stereophile’s measurement if the RP600M and the Audioholics review of the RP8000F were -6dB.

At the end of the day they are just speakers. The owners will enjoy them and the non owners won’t

Although how did they get their reputation of being the efficient brand if they really aren’t that much more efficient?

As for other brands, check out KLH! Although I don’t think they are blatantly adding 6dB, feel free to prove me wrong!

Good discussion though

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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I played jazz saxophone at a very high level through grad school. I DON’T need the type of clarity required to fully enjoy the intricacies and SQ of music. I don’t want muddy sound, but it doesn’t have to be perfect.



I want whatever can get me closest to the CV LS12s I had in 1999. Loud, good mids, and full of bass. Budget up to $500/speaker.

Lol despite Klipsch’s specs being completely whack, the RP8000F towers might be great for you. They get loud, although not as loud as they say, and look pretty great IMO.

Another good one would be Emotiva T2’s.

Those are both towers though, if you’d like bookshelves I’d recommend Ascend CMT340’s or Chane A2.4’s. Or even Klipsch RP600M’s. All of these can run full range pretty proficiently.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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Lol despite Klipsch’s specs being completely whack, the RP8000F towers might be great for you. They get loud, although not as loud as they say, and look pretty great IMO.

Another good one would be Emotiva T2’s.

Those are both towers though, if you’d like bookshelves I’d recommend Ascend CMT340’s or Chane A2.4’s. Or even Klipsch RP600M’s. All of these can run full range pretty proficiently.
Size/space is not an issue. And I’ll probably tuck them into a corner just to spite people.
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Size/space is not an issue. And I’ll probably tuck them into a corner just to spite people.

If not using a subwoofer, towers would be best, but if using a subwoofer bookshelves would be money better spent.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #21 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 08:22 AM
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I played jazz saxophone at a very high level through grad school. I DON’T need the type of clarity required to fully enjoy the intricacies and SQ of music. I don’t want muddy sound, but it doesn’t have to be perfect.

I want whatever can get me closest to the CV LS12s I had in 1999. Loud, good mids, and full of bass. Budget up to $500/speaker.
The Klipsch RP6000 will absolutely do that for you but I would wait until they are discounted.

Or just buy the RP280s which are the prior model and some people actually prefer the older RPs to the newer RPs in the Klipsch thread who listened to both so a coin flip.

On Amazon RP260s are just $334 each, RP280s, (you want a largish room for those), are $480/pair.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #22 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 08:36 AM
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When looking at speakers in the $500/each range, there are a few configurations that all have similar low end frequency response. In my scenario, let’s assume all have a low end response of 30Hz. How will the various sized woofers sound/feel? If I enjoy strong bass (and don’t like having a dedicated subwoofer), will I be disappointed in the 3 6.5” woofer speakers? Or is 30Hz 30Hz regardless of config?
For your budget -- see of you can find these Bic EV speakers -- have fun -- sold each
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/bic-ame...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

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post #23 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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For your budget -- see of you can find these Bic EV speakers -- have fun -- sold each
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/bic-ame...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
Haha those look like the Kia of the stereo world... cheap but effective...? Hell, probably worth a try with my amazon prime membership.
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post #24 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 11:38 AM
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Haha those look like the Kia of the stereo world... cheap but effective...? Hell, probably worth a try with my amazon prime membership.

They’ll definitely give you that Cerwin Vega sound. LOUD LOUD AND LOUD.



Enjoy.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #25 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 11:45 AM
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3 6.5” vs 2 8” vs 1 12”

Double post.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)

Last edited by Russdawg1; 03-24-2019 at 01:20 PM.
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post #26 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 01:05 PM
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Haha those look like the Kia of the stereo world... cheap but effective...? Hell, probably worth a try with my amazon prime membership.
Bingo!

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post #27 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 06:17 PM
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As for other brands, check out KLH! Although I don’t think they are blatantly adding 6dB...
A sudden urge is coming over me to start a new speaker company...I'm thinking to call it "+11"! I'll measure the speakers in small cars, then add 11 dB to all the actual sensitivity measurements and call it "cabin gain"! The advertising campaign will feature endorsement from Spinal Tap, and my top model will be called the Stonehenge (the subwoofer will naturally be called "Big Bottom")
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post #28 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 06:19 PM
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A sudden urge is coming over me to start a new speaker company...I'm thinking to call it "+11"! I'll measure the speakers in small cars, then add 11 dB to all the actual sensitivity measurements and call it "cabin gain"! The advertising campaign will feature endorsement from Spinal Tap, and my top model will be called the Stonehenge (the subwoofer will naturally be called "Big Bottom")

I love it. I’m happy to sample your products and give you glowing reviews!

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #29 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 08:39 PM
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I love it. I’m happy to sample your products and give you glowing reviews!
I got no speakers and it's breaking my heart
But I got a reviewer, and that's a start!
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post #30 of 43 Old 03-24-2019, 09:02 PM
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I got no speakers and it's breaking my heart

But I got a reviewer, and that's a start!

One of the more respected reviewers if I may say so myself

“RussdawgReviews.com”
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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