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post #31 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by apiasecki View Post
now hoping i get my wife convinced - what is the best receiver/ power amp combo to drive those puppies

i m reading emotiva can be quite harsh sounding? was looking to use Denon 4500 as a receiver
We like Lexicon AVR or pre/pro, Anthem AVM-60 pre/pro and ATI power amps

https://www.lexicon.com/productlist-...und-processors

http://www.ati-amp.com/home.php
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post #32 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 07:10 AM
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Floyd Toole: "The positioning of the ears means that human localization in the vertical plane is not at all precise, so the fact that the sound is not coming from the mouths of the actors or newscasters is less obvious.
We are very susceptible to the ventriloquism effect in which we are more attracted to the moving lips, flashing gun, or slamming door, than to the actual source of the sound. In many movies most of the on-screen sounds emerge from the center channel and that includes sounds other than dialog, yet audiences at home or in cinemas don’t seem to notice the discrepancy even in the horizontal plane where we are very sensitive to directional cues. Visual cues dominate."

From: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s...rs_part_2.docx

Can be also accessed from here: https://www.routledgetextbooks.com/t...me-theatre.php
While many may be susceptible to the "Ventriloquist Effect", some may not, (just like speaker preference predictions may predict "most" people's preferences, but not "all" people's preferences.) I personally am not susceptible to it. I struggled for years with a CC placed below my non-AT screen. The vertical discrepency between sound and the visual image was ALWAYS there for me. I kept getting taller CC stands to get it closer to the bottom of the screen. I even got lower seating to try to improve the "lock-up" between the sound and the visual image. Nothing worked until I got an Acoustically Transparent screen. Finally, I could place the CC precisely where it belonged, right behind where the voices were originating.



I still notice occasional side to side disparities between sound and visual, but the only way that could be improved upon would be by adding Left-Center and Right-Center speakers, which would also require a very expensive processor to provide the signals for those speaker.



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post #33 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 07:19 AM
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another question - it would be easier to convince wifey f the speakers were white - wonder whether i cd not get c208 shrink wrapped like a car?they dont do white. i am sure if they come with C228be that will be white
Would your wife find this to be acceptable for a center channel?
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post #34 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
While many may be susceptible to the "Ventriloquist Effect", some may not, (just like speaker preference predictions may predict "most" people's preferences, but not "all" people's preferences.) I personally am not susceptible to it. I struggled for years with a CC placed below my non-AT screen. The vertical discrepency between sound and the visual image was ALWAYS there for me. I kept getting taller CC stands to get it closer to the bottom of the screen. I even got lower seating to try to improve the "lock-up" between the sound and the visual image. Nothing worked until I got an Acoustically Transparent screen. Finally, I could place the CC precisely where it belonged, right behind where the voices were originating.



I still notice occasional side to side disparities between sound and visual, but the only way that could be improved upon would be by adding Left-Center and Right-Center speakers, which would also require a very expensive processor to provide the signals for those speaker.



Craig
Do you find lateral or sidewall reflections to be helpful, possibly by increasing the Apparent Source Width of each front channel? This would be at odds with "pinpoint imaging," but it might help reduce the noticeable disparity between visual image and audible localization. Alternatively, I seem to recall that Dolby PLIIx allowed for center width adjustment. I don't know about others, but had you tried adjusting this to see if this affected your perception of lateral disparities?

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post #35 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 11:42 AM
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@apiasecki : I have not found Emotiva to be harsh-sounding but opinions vary. If you've a subwoofer the Denon will probably be good to drive the F228Be's but it heavily depends upon you room, listening position, and volume levels. I am not sure about the F228Be's but my Salon2's have some fairly low dips and should (IMO) really be called a 4-ohm speaker because it is near that for much of its frequency range. Denon usually does OK with lower loads but I have not had a newer Denon (the one I have is fairly old now and is not driving my Revels). You may want to offload the mains later with an external amplifier but first things first.

I have in the past used contact paper to wrap a speaker (etc.) and change its color with minimal cost and effort. They make some now that can be peeled off later (removeable) but IME (limited) after a year or two it is still a PITA to get it all off.

On center placement: I am fairly insensitive but have always preferred it below the TV rather than above. As long as it is "high enough" I don't need it in the center, but also don't have a projection screen so couldn't do that anyway. I recently posted pictures of my setup and you can see the center is a little low. The pictures exaggerate it, however, as when seated it is really not that far down and is tilted up a bit. Still, after some gentle prodding by Roger, I plan to raise it a few inches just because (the need to have it lower went away) so I can raise the stand a bit). I have friends who much prefer it above the screen, and one or two like Craig that really want the dialogue coming from the screen. Preference... I find with TV the focus is more on the video and I am more tolerant of audio defects. With mch music I would like the center higher and that is the main reason I plan to tweak.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #36 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 12:04 PM
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Do you find lateral or sidewall reflections to be helpful, possibly by increasing the Apparent Source Width of each front channel? This would be at odds with "pinpoint imaging," but it might help reduce the noticeable disparity between visual image and audible localization.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, but the front end of my room is all acoustic absorption. The wall behind the speakers is 4" of acoustic cotton floor to ceiling. The side walls out past the first reflection points are the same. This is all covered with triple fullness Burgundy Velour drapes:

(The colors in this pic don't represent the actual colors in my room. It is FAR darker in my theater than this shows. I had to really light it up with extra lighting to be able to photograph down there. The carpet is a very dark brown, the drapes are a very DEEP burgundy and the throw rug on the floor is much darker than it appears in the pic. When the lights are off, it's pretty much a black hole!)

The front corners are 10" bass traps. The ceiling is dropped 1" acoustic tiles below open joists stuffed with 8" of pink fluffy, (a huge broadband absorpber/bass trap), the floor is 1" cut pile carpet over the heaviest pad available. Early lateral reflections basically don't exist in the front of my theater. This is intended to *enhance* pinpoint imaging. I achieve "Apparent Sound Width" and increased "envelopment" by using Wides.


I've had Wides in my system ever since Audyssey came out with DSX. I moved on from DSX to DTS Neural:X which also generated a signal for the Wides, (and did it much better than DSX!). Pinpoint imaging in the front soundstage has always been a high priority in my theater, (and whenever possible, in the theaters I help other people with.)

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Alternatively, I seem to recall that Dolby PLIIx allowed for center width adjustment. I don't know about others, but had you tried adjusting this to see if this affected your perception of lateral disparities.
I haven't used Dolby PLIIx in years. I used to use Neural:X to extract the Wides in my system, but AFAIR, it didn't have any center width adjustment. My current pre/pro, (Marantz 8805) doesn't even have PLIIx. It only has DSU and DTS Neo:X which unfortunately don't provide Wide signals. Overheads, yes, Wides, No. I've never looked to see if either of them provide center width adjustment. If they do, I'll play around with it. Nonetheless, I have no plans to remove all the absorption in my room.

Craig

PS. BTW, the back side of my room is quite reflective, so I get ambiance from the back of the room, (although there is a 4' X 6' absorption panel directly behind the LP to reduce that direct reflection.)

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post #37 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 12:36 PM
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Thanks for the thoughtful response, but the front end of my room is all acoustic absorption. The wall behind the speakers is 4" of acoustic cotton floor to ceiling. The side walls out past the first reflection points are the same. This is all covered with triple fullness Burgundy Velour drapes:

(The colors in this pic don't represent the actual colors in my room. It is FAR darker in my theater than this shows. I had to really light it up with extra lighting to be able to photograph down there. The carpet is a very dark brown, the drapes are a very DEEP burgundy and the throw rug on the floor is much darker than it appears in the pic. When the lights are off, it's pretty much a black hole!)

The front corners are 10" bass traps. The ceiling is dropped 1" acoustic tiles below open joists stuffed with 8" of pink fluffy, (a huge broadband absorpber/bass trap), the floor is 1" cut pile carpet over the heaviest pad available. Early lateral reflections basically don't exist in the front of my theater. This is intended to *enhance* pinpoint imaging. I achieve "Apparent Sound Width" and increased "envelopment" by using Wides.


I've had Wides in my system ever since Audyssey came out with DSX. I moved on from DSX to DTS Neural:X which also generated a signal for the Wides, (and did it much better than DSX!). Pinpoint imaging in the front soundstage has always been a high priority in my theater, (and whenever possible, in the theaters I help other people with.)


I haven't used Dolby PLIIx in years. I used to use Neural:X to extract the Wides in my system, but AFAIR, it didn't have any center width adjustment. My current pre/pro, (Marantz 8805) doesn't even have PLIIx. It only has DSU and DTS Neo:X which unfortunately don't provide Wide signals. Overheads, yes, Wides, No. I've never looked to see if either of them provide center width adjustment. If they do, I'll play around with it. Nonetheless, I have no plans to remove all the absorption in my room.

Craig

PS. BTW, the back side of my room is quite reflective, so I get ambiance from the back of the room, (although there is a 4' X 6' absorption panel directly behind the LP to reduce that direct reflection.)
It sounds like the curtains might allow for adjustable acoustics. It might be interesting to see if pulling back the curtains on the sides for movies only and allowing lateral sidewall reflections might reduce your audio/visual dissonance. It looks like the Marantz 8805 does allow for "Center Spread" with Dolby Surround but not DTS. Apparent Source Width is different from envelopment, which is indeed enhanced by using width speakers. However, from what you're writing, I suspect that you would prefer your system as is, compared with the alternatives. No offense intended, but it seems to me that your issues with the lack of ventriloquist effect, as well as with the discrepancies between center channel audio and video, in your room are actually a direct consequence of your design goals. Just out of curiosity, what happens if/when you go to unamplified classical music concerts or recitals?
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post #38 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 01:33 PM
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It sounds like the curtains might allow for adjustable acoustics. It might be interesting to see if pulling back the curtains on the sides for movies only and allowing lateral sidewall reflections might reduce your audio/visual dissonance.
The curtains are for cosmetic purposes only. The *real* acoustic absorption is BEHIND the curtains. I would need to tear all that out to do what you're suggesting. (The curtains also serve to reduce light reflections, but that a whole different discussion.)

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It looks like the Marantz 8805 does allow for "Center Spread" with Dolby Surround but not DTS. Apparent Source Width is different from envelopment, which is indeed enhanced by using width speakers.
I'll check that out, thanks!

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However, from what you're writing, I suspect that you would prefer your system as is, compared with the alternatives. No offense intended, but it seems to me that your issues with the lack of ventriloquist effect, as well as with the discrepancies between center channel audio and video, in your room are actually a direct consequence of your design goals.
The horizontal discrepancies caused by my inability to be susceptible to the "Ventriloquist Effect" existed ALL THE TIME. Any time something was being reproduced by the CC, it ALWAYS "imaged" below the screen for me. Voices, sound effects, pans, music, all of it, whenever the CC was playing I *heard* it from below the screen. After replacing my screen with an Acoustically Transparent screen and placing the CC behind it, that problem has been COMPLETELY eliminated. Everything now comes from exactly where its' supposed to.

The *only* remaining issue is the rare occasion that horizontal images don't image precisely left to right. For example, when there are two actors on the screen, one on the left and one on the right, and they are talking to each other, if the mixer has not mixed the sonic images as "phantom" images that emanate from the positions of the actors, both voices will appear to come from the middle of the screen. This is a very RARE occurrence when it is even noticeable, (and it's likely also due to my inability to be susceptible to the Ventriloquist Effect.) Even so, I seriously doubt that adding in some lateral reflections will improve this minor/trivial issue. As I said before, I would need to add additional Center-Right and Center-Left speakers, and a processor capable of mapping the sounds to the correct positions. To me this is not worth doing. (Part of the problem is that I sit very close to my screen. I'm 9' away from a 120" diagonal 2.35:1 screen, so the angles to to these sonic images is greater than they would be with a smaller display and a more distant seating position.)

As it stands, I have a very wide, cohesive, immersive and solid front soundstage, and within that soundstage, I have very precise imaging. With the right content, it is virtually holographic. Adding lateral early reflections would only denigrate the imaging, without adding anything to the width of the soundstage.

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Just out of curiosity, what happens if/when you go to unamplified classical music concerts or recitals?
To answer this question, I will quote a good friend of mine from his WYSC thread:
Quote:
LISTENING BIASES: This room is used for both movies and music. I figured out a long time ago that there is not a 2 channel system capable of recreating a live event in any room - at any price. Multi-channel enhancement of 2 channel music, to my ears, is a huge improvement over 2 channel (still not marginally close to a live event). I used to believe that a great home audio system could at least reproduce a 3 piece jazz combo. But then my wonderful bride surprised me for a birthday and hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. If live music is 100, then the very, very best 2 channel audio system is a 10 - maybe!!! It is that far apart. So I quit the chase toward perfection (and the attendant expense) and decided to focus on fun. (Still ain't cheap - and it is still an addiction interesting hobby!!!). There are very few pieces of music that don't sound more "fun" to my ears when expanded to multi-channel. In the FWIW department, if you were to sit at the MLP listening to music, you would not know you were not listening to 2-channel - until I switched to 2-channel.
(Emphasis added by me.)

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post24134933
Not surprisingly, we both use the same speakers AND heavily treated rooms. Fortunately for him, he uses a much more expensive processor that can extract Wides on everything. However, he doesn't use Center-Left or Center-Right speakers either.

Craig

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post #39 of 43 Old 04-05-2019, 02:07 PM
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Sorry, missed the part about the side wall absorption behind the curtains. Easy way to temporarily add sidewall reflections would be with rigid reflective panels (like a reasonably sized piece of plywood or drywall) placed upright appropriately in terms of position using mirror, but you probably wouldn’t like the effect. I’m glad you seem to have no cognitive dissonance between pinpoint sonic imaging and large image size. As an example of the reverse, I sometimes notice differences in imaging and localization with my eyes open and closed, whether it’s Symphony Hall or a recital hall, most recently this weekend due to the asymmetric radiation pattern of a grand piano with its lid down, but these sorts of discrepancies don’t bother me. Radiohead’s OK Computer has some fun examples like Exit Music From a Film where Thom Yorke is recorded in such a way that I feel like his mouth seems to occupy the entire space between the left and right speakers. Maybe I can try pulling up the video to see if there’s an obvious mismatch between the stereo audio and the video image. What does sometimes bother me momentarily with some of the more recent musicals is a sudden change in acoustic ambiance between the songs and the preceding spoken parts.
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post #40 of 43 Old 04-10-2019, 08:44 AM
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The curtains are for cosmetic purposes only. The *real* acoustic absorption is BEHIND the curtains. I would need to tear all that out to do what you're suggesting. (The curtains also serve to reduce light reflections, but that a whole different discussion.)


I'll check that out, thanks!



The horizontal discrepancies caused by my inability to be susceptible to the "Ventriloquist Effect" existed ALL THE TIME. Any time something was being reproduced by the CC, it ALWAYS "imaged" below the screen for me. Voices, sound effects, pans, music, all of it, whenever the CC was playing I *heard* it from below the screen. After replacing my screen with an Acoustically Transparent screen and placing the CC behind it, that problem has been COMPLETELY eliminated. Everything now comes from exactly where its' supposed to.

The *only* remaining issue is the rare occasion that horizontal images don't image precisely left to right. For example, when there are two actors on the screen, one on the left and one on the right, and they are talking to each other, if the mixer has not mixed the sonic images as "phantom" images that emanate from the positions of the actors, both voices will appear to come from the middle of the screen. This is a very RARE occurrence when it is even noticeable, (and it's likely also due to my inability to be susceptible to the Ventriloquist Effect.) Even so, I seriously doubt that adding in some lateral reflections will improve this minor/trivial issue. As I said before, I would need to add additional Center-Right and Center-Left speakers, and a processor capable of mapping the sounds to the correct positions. To me this is not worth doing. (Part of the problem is that I sit very close to my screen. I'm 9' away from a 120" diagonal 2.35:1 screen, so the angles to to these sonic images is greater than they would be with a smaller display and a more distant seating position.)

As it stands, I have a very wide, cohesive, immersive and solid front soundstage, and within that soundstage, I have very precise imaging. With the right content, it is virtually holographic. Adding lateral early reflections would only denigrate the imaging, without adding anything to the width of the soundstage.


To answer this question, I will quote a good friend of mine from his WYSC thread:
(Emphasis added by me.)

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post24134933
Not surprisingly, we both use the same speakers AND heavily treated rooms. Fortunately for him, he uses a much more expensive processor that can extract Wides on everything. However, he doesn't use Center-Left or Center-Right speakers either.

Craig
Craig John, I missed the following sentences from Floyd Toole's online addenda to his book:

"The possibility of placing center loudspeakers both above and below the display is sometimes suggested. It is not recommended. As explained in Section 15.12.1, p. 430, elevation cues are at very high frequencies, so if one wishes to attempt to elevate the apparent location of a below-screen loudspeaker all that should be needed is a tweeter radiating sound above 5–6 kHz or so located above the screen. It would make an interesting experiment." For viewers with direct-view displays (not projectors and screens) who are insensitive to the ventriloquism effect, this might present a potential option, though it would not address lateral discrepancies between image and apparent audio source location.
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post #41 of 43 Old 04-10-2019, 11:59 AM
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Craig John, I missed the following sentences from Floyd Toole's online addenda to his book:

"The possibility of placing center loudspeakers both above and below the display is sometimes suggested. It is not recommended. As explained in Section 15.12.1, p. 430, elevation cues are at very high frequencies, so if one wishes to attempt to elevate the apparent location of a below-screen loudspeaker all that should be needed is a tweeter radiating sound above 5–6 kHz or so located above the screen. It would make an interesting experiment." For viewers with direct-view displays (not projectors and screens) who are insensitive to the ventriloquism effect, this might present a potential option, though it would not address lateral discrepancies between image and apparent audio source location.
I have actually heard just such a system with dual CC speakers, one located above and one below a non-AT screen. Surprisingly, it did place the voices in the middle of the screen. They didn't sound "right" (comb filtering), but they did image from the right place.

Another methodology for centering the center channel image is called "Dialogue Lift". It's used by Yamaha to raise the perceived height of the sounds coming from the CC by involving the "presence speakers". Later on it evolved to not needing the presence speakers:
Quote:
Dialogue Lift and Dialogue Level Adjustment for natural dialogue and vocals

Dialogue Lift raises the sound of dialogue from the center speaker to a position in the center of the screen. Newly developed virtual dialogue lift achieves dialogue lift function even without the need for presence speakers. Dialogue Level Adjustment lets you control the volume of the vocal sound, so you hear movie dialogue and music vocals at the ideal level for clear, comfortable listening.

Sherwood Newcastle receivers with Trinnov did something similar with their 2D and 3D audio re-mapping feature. Both Yamaha's and Trinnov's systems use multiple mic arrays with one mic placed higher than the others to calculate angles and directionality.

Fortunately, I don't need to do ANY of that with my CC BEHIND an acoustically transparent screen. Voices sound "right" AND they image from the "right height" because the CC is in the "right place."

Craig

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post #42 of 43 Old 05-14-2019, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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oki i decied on the order f228be , lyngdorf mp-50 paired anthem str + mca 525 (i m quite worreid about the power on pop on them tho),

now need some nice xlr interconnects and speaker cable... unfortunately speaker cable would need to be around 5m long - any recommendation there?
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post #43 of 43 Old 05-14-2019, 09:11 AM
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oki i decied on the order f228be , lyngdorf mp-50 paired anthem str + mca 525 (i m quite worried about the power on pop on them tho),

now need some nice xlr interconnects and speaker cable... unfortunately speaker cable would need to be around 5m long - any recommendation there?
I use Mogami 2549 for balanced interconnect cable. I used it as microphone and line level cable for decades while working as a recording and live sound engineer. I get it made to custom length by Redco Audio.

https://www.redco.com/Mogami-W2549.html

I use Belden or Canare speaker cable and get it from Blue Jeans cable.

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

5m of good speaker cable is no problem.

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