Bose sounding better than my Sony speakers? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 62 Old 04-25-2019, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Bose sounding better than my Sony speakers?

So, I went to my neighbors house as he finished building his HT room. He fired up the projector and ready player on on blu ray was playing, I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?

I have a denon, receiver, a SVS sub and sony speakers and two atmos speakers, but mine don't like like his.

A couple more details. his room was closed, mine in a open basement enclosed on 3 sides, his may have been in a higher volume, and I am used to listen between -35 and -40db and I stream most of my stuff vs. his blu-ray.

I am thinking all these factors made his sound better than mine. Please validate.
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post #2 of 62 Old 04-25-2019, 01:47 PM
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Why not ask him if you can borrow his speakers? Then see how they sound in your room with your music.
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post #3 of 62 Old 04-25-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sid369 View Post
So, I went to my neighbors house as he finished building his HT room. He fired up the projector and ready player on on blu ray was playing, I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?



I have a denon, receiver, a SVS sub and sony speakers and two atmos speakers, but mine don't like like his.



A couple more details. his room was closed, mine in a open basement enclosed on 3 sides, his may have been in a higher volume, and I am used to listen between -35 and -40db and I stream most of my stuff vs. his blu-ray.



I am thinking all these factors made his sound better than mine. Please validate.
Many consumers find Bose sound better than equally priced AVR plus sub plus speaker system. And it shows in their sales numbers. They sell more systems than any other speaker manufacturer in US.

But Audiophiles don't like them and can not explain their popularity except to say that it is because of their slick marketing. I don't buy that. I see more advertisements from SVS, Harman, Kef and others than from Bose.

But I don't have an answer either.

Here is a detailed explanation that someone compiled on why Bose Speakers are so popular.

http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/stereo/bosefaq.htm
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post #4 of 62 Old 04-25-2019, 02:45 PM
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If we are talking about Bose cubes, all I can say is with a small woofer, they don't have much base and the base module doesn't have real low LFE either (maybe 50 hz)...and with no tweeters, the highs fall off before any decent traditional tweeter. The EQ done by the bass module helps, but you are really getting a blast of midbass from a 2 inch paper cone woofer...but some people like that.

However, you cannot compare his system in his room and your system in your room...room affects are just too significant a factor in SQ to draw any real conclusions. As pointed out, if you can borrow his system OR offer to bring your system to his house...and hear them both in the same room!

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post #5 of 62 Old 04-25-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
If we are talking about Bose cubes, all I can say is with a small woofer, they don't have much base and the base module doesn't have real low LFE either (maybe 50 hz)...and with no tweeters, the highs fall off before any decent traditional tweeter. The EQ done by the bass module helps, but you are really getting a blast of midbass from a 2 inch paper cone woofer...but some people like that.



However, you cannot compare his system in his room and your system in your room...room affects are just too significant a factor in SQ to draw any real conclusions. As pointed out, if you can borrow his system OR offer to bring your system to his house...and hear them both in the same room!
Don't be surprised if Bose sounds better to you in your home. Many consumers report liking Bose systems. The link provided above may provide some clues.
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post #6 of 62 Old 04-25-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sid369 View Post
So, I went to my neighbors house as he finished building his HT room. He fired up the projector and ready player on on blu ray was playing, I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?

I have a denon, receiver, a SVS sub and sony speakers and two atmos speakers, but mine don't like like his.

A couple more details. his room was closed, mine in a open basement enclosed on 3 sides, his may have been in a higher volume, and I am used to listen between -35 and -40db and I stream most of my stuff vs. his blu-ray.

I am thinking all these factors made his sound better than mine. Please validate.
-40 to -35 is really soft, especially for movies. For just casual TV watching or background music those levels are OK, but it's really low otherwise.

I've heard the bose systems during demos at bose stores in malls just to kill time and they do sound pretty good for what they are but not for what they cost. Bose uses a LOT of DSP wizardry to achieve their signature sound.

Try turning yours up. It could be your room, speaker placement, seating distance or general setup.

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post #7 of 62 Old 04-26-2019, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
-40 to -35 is really soft, especially for movies. For just casual TV watching or background music those levels are OK, but it's really low otherwise.

I've heard the bose systems during demos at bose stores in malls just to kill time and they do sound pretty good for what they are but not for what they cost. Bose uses a LOT of DSP wizardry to achieve their signature sound.

Try turning yours up. It could be your room, speaker placement, seating distance or general setup.

I think it could be the one side of the room being open to the rest of the basement and the low volume. Once I can get the house to myself, I will try to increase the volume and see how it sounds.
I did spend time setting up the odyssey calibration on the denon receiver and manually adjusting to my liking initially, may need to re-calibrate. I also think the blu-ray movies have higher bitrate which is good for audio vs. netflix or itunes movies. Will see if I can get a blu-ray copy of a movie and use it to test.
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post #8 of 62 Old 04-26-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sid369 View Post
I think it could be the one side of the room being open to the rest of the basement and the low volume. Once I can get the house to myself, I will try to increase the volume and see how it sounds.
good for audio vs. netflix or itunes movies. Will see if I can get a blu-ray copy of a movie and use it to test.
You say you own Sony -- but what is the model number of the Sony speakers?
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post #9 of 62 Old 04-26-2019, 11:07 AM
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Ummm, maybe the grass is greener on your neighbors'?
maybe because you know his Bose system costs $1k while your old Sony was just a few hundreds?
maybe ...
If you have some budget, why not buy that Bose system or a similar one (at BB? buy then return though) then try at home and see if you can hear the improvement.
Two important things:
1. room treatment. Maybe his room is ideal for audio while yours is not
2. sound is very subjective. Trust what your ears tell you.
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post #10 of 62 Old 04-26-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sid369 View Post
So, I went to my neighbors house as he finished building his HT room. He fired up the projector and ready player on on blu ray was playing, I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?

I have a denon, receiver, a SVS sub and sony speakers and two atmos speakers, but mine don't like like his.

A couple more details. his room was closed, mine in a open basement enclosed on 3 sides, his may have been in a higher volume, and I am used to listen between -35 and -40db and I stream most of my stuff vs. his blu-ray.

I am thinking all these factors made his sound better than mine. Please validate.
Possible help from cousin forum involving Audyssey treatment of sub. Good luck.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/aud...oblem.2086184/

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post #11 of 62 Old 04-26-2019, 07:10 PM
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I got to say, that many people POO POO Bose speakers but honestly they do sound very very good when I listened to them in the store. Who cares if they do DSP or not do DSP it's the end product that matters.
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post #12 of 62 Old 04-26-2019, 07:23 PM
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I got to say, that many people POO POO Bose speakers but honestly they do sound very very good when I listened to them in the store. Who cares if they do DSP or not do DSP it's the end product that matters.
While I differ with you on the sound of Bose systems I've heard ( they have all sounded ok to fair to me ) , I do agree completely with your last statement . While their voodoo doesn't mix well with a lot in this forum who want to mix and match and DSP to taste , it's basically the debate about which speakers , receiver , sub , etc. We're all going to have favorites , and all (most) make sacrifices for financial , space , ergonomic , and other reasons. I do think you can get a much better sound from other options than Bose , for less money , but some don't want to put in the time to research or set up . If they enjoy it , more power to them , whatever it is.

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post #13 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 12:55 AM
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I had a set of Bose dual-cubes and Acoustimass module back in college... I got them second-hand with a Sony ES Pro Logic receiver for like $150 from a flyer on posted on campus and they were my first home theater system (paired with a 27" Philips tube TV and PS2 for DVD playback). I'm relying on my memory from 18 years ago but, honestly, they didn't sound bad at all. I flipped them a few months later for nearly $800 on eBay a few weeks after joining AVS and it's been a downward spiral ever since.

You mentioned the neighbor had a projector... any chance it was the overall impact of a much larger screen and a dedicated room that left you feeling impressed, and not purely a semi-objective comparison of sound quality?

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post #14 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sid369 View Post
So, I went to my neighbors house as he finished building his HT room. He fired up the projector and ready player on on blu ray was playing, I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?

I have a denon, receiver, a SVS sub and sony speakers and two atmos speakers, but mine don't like like his.

A couple more details. his room was closed, mine in a open basement enclosed on 3 sides, his may have been in a higher volume, and I am used to listen between -35 and -40db and I stream most of my stuff vs. his blu-ray.

I am thinking all these factors made his sound better than mine. Please validate.
Dr. Amar Bose was a pioneer in the field of Psychoacoustics, the study of how sound is perceived. Long story short, Bose understood that human hearing is most sensitive at mid-range frequencies and the effects of equal-loudness contours on how sound is perceived. Bose built his first speakers and subsequent designs with regards to this phenomena. Bose speakers have typically come with proprietary analog crossovers and drivers (later DSP) that exploit mid-range frequencies and equal-loudness contours with varying amplifier gain as well as room reflections to achieve their goals or sound signature.

The Audiophile world embraced Bose's early designs, the 901 speaker specifically, as being revolutionary and ground breaking in the pursuit of accurate and high fidelity sound reproduction. As technology progressed, the Audiophile community began to turn its back on Bose as the speakers do not measure flat. In general, the industry thinks a speaker's response must or should be flat to more accurately produce sound correctly. Dr. Bose would say something like, what are you more interested in, how it measures or how it sounds? And then you have the market sector that says Bose is over priced or you can buy speakers that measure better for less money.

To your question, you have the equipment and possibly the tools to make your system sound good and possibly maybe the same, very similar, or maybe better compared to your friends Bose set up but maybe not the experience to apply it in a practical way.

Keep in mind that Dr. Bose has been doing this since the early 60's when he founded Bose the company and Bose the company was started after several years of research in the field while Dr. Bose was a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In general, the Bose philosophy might be summed up as delivering a plug-and-play product to the consumer that sounds really good with minimal setup restrictions. To that point, Bose has been very successful. They may not have the extreme extension of high/low frequency's or measure flat compared to other speakers, but they do sound good.

Arguably, Bose does not deserve the bad publicity and much of it is word of mouth with out real world experience with the actual product as you, yourself, have demonstrated in your above post. Full disclosure, I do not own Bose speakers. I do own Bose noise canceling headphones for air travel and they are hard to beat. Bose also almost owns the commercial aviation headphone industry and supply's the US military as well as others with their headsets.

Dr. Bose was a brilliant man and holds several patents with regards to speaker design, class D amplifiers, and patents in other automotive oriented areas.
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post #15 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 10:03 AM
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Prioritizing mid-range frequencies over flat response to exploit human psychoacoustics is akin to human attraction to unnaturally bright and colorful images that TV makers exploit by adding a bright but inaccurate store display (torch) mode to attract customers' eyes like moths to a flame. Many leave their TVs in torch mode at home even though it produces an unnatural, cartoonish image. When presented with a more natural, color correct image many find it to be too dull by comparison. Similarly most humans also have a craving for sugar that food companies exploit by adding sugar or high fructose corn syrup to foods that are not naturally sweet.

Considering the millions of people hooked on torch mode TVs and sugar/high fructose corn syrup laced food it's not surprising that many get hooked on the Bose psychoacoustic sound over something closer to what's found in nature.
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post #16 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 10:15 AM
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Prioritizing mid-range frequencies over flat response to exploit human psychoacoustics is akin to human attraction to unnaturally bright and colorful images that TV makers exploit by adding a bright but inaccurate store display (torch) mode to attract customers' eyes like moths to a flame. Many leave their TVs in torch mode at home even though it produces an unnatural, cartoonish image. When presented with a more natural, color correct image many find it to be too dull by comparison. Similarly most humans also have a craving for sugar that food companies exploit by adding sugar or high fructose corn syrup to foods that are not naturally sweet.

Considering the millions of people hooked on torch mode TVs and sugar/high fructose corn syrup laced food it's not surprising that many get hooked on the Bose psychoacoustic sound over something closer to what's found in nature.

Exactly.
For audio/videophiles, we almost always judge based on objective results and then pick those products which perform best within our price range while coming as close to objective reference as possible.
For TV's, this means bucking the majority trend of loving Torch/Dynamic mode pictures.
For audio, it means which speaker can best reproduce the soundtrack as intended.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with saying that your subjective taste prefers a dynamic mode picture or a speaker that sounds best because of psychoacoustic witchcraft. But we'll always remind that subjective is not objective...and that's why most of us will happily point out why Bose is a poor choice for a great setup.
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post #17 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Prioritizing mid-range frequencies over flat response to exploit human psychoacoustics is akin to human attraction to unnaturally bright and colorful images that TV makers exploit by adding a bright but inaccurate store display (torch) mode to attract customers' eyes like moths to a flame. Many leave their TVs in torch mode at home even though it produces an unnatural, cartoonish image. When presented with a more natural, color correct image many find it to be too dull by comparison. Similarly most humans also have a craving for sugar that food companies exploit by adding sugar or high fructose corn syrup to foods that are not naturally sweet.

Considering the millions of people hooked on torch mode TVs and sugar/high fructose corn syrup laced food it's not surprising that many get hooked on the Bose psychoacoustic sound over something closer to what's found in nature.
Be careful there...

Bose is but a building block in the equation. I would argue that they are built with the goal to replicate nature as humans hear it.

The science begins to be documented with the work of Fletcher and Munson at Bell Labs in 1933 with statistical sample populations tested with regards to how the ear hears different frequencies at different levels. This work remains as a subset of the ISO 226 standard which defines normal equal-loudness-level contours. If this isn't a quantification of the representation of what's found in nature, I'm not sure what is.

Dr. Bose come's along some 20-25 years later and is underwhelmed at the sound of some high fidelity speaker he's purchased and decides to fix it. He begins his work with how people hear and perceive sound. Psychoacoustic's is a legitimate field of research, not marketing speak. Bose applies the understanding of how people hear to speaker design using active crossover and EQ electronics to build on the foundation of equal-loudness-level contours using/building on the Fletcher-Munson data. The RIAA EQ curve for phono pre-amps pivots at 1000Hz (mid-range) with de-emphasis/pre-emphasis for recording/playback on high/low frequencies. The hearing range of humans is generally accepted to be 20Hz-20kHz and that's for a young person. By the time you're in your 20's, it's dropped to something under 20hKz and by your 30-40's, under 18kHz. What are you left with if not a lot of mid range?

Keep in mind, a lot of this work was done before parametric equalizer/graphic equalizers as we know them today were available. Bose used electronic's combined with what many would consider to be rather ordinary looking drivers to produce rather remarkable sound. There was a company, CTS in Paducah, Kentucky, that built the drivers for the Bose 901's. The drivers were proprietary and sold for around 50 cents each in the early 1970's. I had an acquaintance that worked there as the basis for my information regarding price. They sounded quite good mounted in 901 cabinet with their outboard EQ Box in line with an amplifier. There were many, many more speaker companies around at that time building what looks like the same speakers you see today that are no longer in business.

Bose left the audiophile/home audio market a long time ago. They now sell mostly audio appliances for home use now with regards to the public/consumer identification. Yet, they remain as one of the major players in audio research and commercial sound reinforcement today. They are still a private company and have not sold out to the highest bidder; they must be doing something that's ok in the eye's of the business world.

The industry now builds speakers that profess to or aim at flat frequency response. All, including the best, fall short when moved from the measurement room to the area where they are finally used. We then apply various room correction algorithms via various filters designed and implemented with DSP circuits, fuss with room treatments and speaker placement, various crossover designs (passive/active), as well as box shape, and use combinations of electrostatic, plasma, dynamic, plainer magnetic, and ribbon drivers to reproduce sound. Yet, this forum alone is full of countless numbers of people left scratching their heads with questions from the most simplistic to the most complex in nature asking how to get their non-Bose speakers right.

What's that you say? Something about "something closer to what's found in nature." No, I think it's about something more than changing Gamma and color saturation on TV's in a room with un-natural color temperature light. We don't need light to hear sound. And while we all may have differences in the ability to hear, we all hear in the same mechanical way, at least based on science and statistical population sampling. I've never heard a speaker that didn't sound like a speaker. That is, an electric-mechanical transducer that is reproducing sound.

I'm in the group that believes that if a speaker measure's well it will probably sound good, but that does not mean there will not be differences.

Dr. Bose and the Bose company has contributed more to accurate sound reproduction than 98+% of the people who frequent this forum ever will.

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post #18 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 02:10 PM
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@b curry , that's a real smorgasbord of points you just threw out up there mixing commercial success with measurable product performance. Sure, any company that can sell lots of speakers with 50 cent drivers for many hundreds of dollars is going to be a commercial success. Sure, companies that try to compete against that at the same price point with higher quality, more expensive components aren't going to be as much of a commercial success and many are going to go out of business. Sure, companies with the biggest marketing budgets have a big advantage in pushing higher volumes of product for greater corporate profitability.

I certainly agree with you that Bose left the audiophile/home audio market a long time ago and now sells mostly audio appliances. That perfectly fits the concept of high volume profitability over optimum measurable product performance. But none of your points contradict the basic concept that Bose appliance speakers are designed for the masses in the same fundamental way as TV torch mode and unnaturally sweetened food products. Bose speakers aren't truly awful nor are they truly great. They are essentially high-volume, middle-of-the road appliances for the masses that are optimized for corporate profitability.
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post #19 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 06:23 PM
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The Bose products available today no longer fit the audiophile field. Sorry not sorry. You can espouse the contributions Dr. Bose has made all you want...but how many home theater builds do you see using Bose speakers? Or two channel music setups?

Bose is a preference choice. Not a reference choice.
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post #20 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@b curry , that's a real smorgasbord of points you just threw out up there mixing commercial success with measurable product performance. Sure, any company that can sell lots of speakers with 50 cent drivers for many hundreds of dollars is going to be a commercial success. Sure, companies that try to compete against that at the same price point with higher quality, more expensive components aren't going to be as much of a commercial success and many are going to go out of business. Sure, companies with the biggest marketing budgets have a big advantage in pushing higher volumes of product for greater corporate profitability.

I certainly agree with you that Bose left the audiophile/home audio market a long time ago and now sells mostly audio appliances. That perfectly fits the concept of high volume profitability over optimum measurable product performance. But none of your points contradict the basic concept that Bose appliance speakers are designed for the masses in the same fundamental way as TV torch mode and unnaturally sweetened food products. Bose speakers aren't truly awful nor are they truly great. They are essentially high-volume, middle-of-the road appliances for the masses that are optimized for corporate profitability.
Yes, it's a lot of points and Bose, in most cases, was the first to market with those points.

I think the bigger issue is, and perhaps not well delineated by my post, is that Bose was one of the first commercial audio companies to be cognoscente of hearing perception and room interaction with regards to speaker design. They were working with active EQ and room interaction decades before DSP processors were available. Regardless of hi-fi or mid-fi, we are still at the same point with better tools today and with many more consumers aware of speaker/room interactions and a will to correct and control. Something that Bose was attempting to do since the 60's.

The OP asked the question, ... "I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?"
My attempt was to explain how that could be, and not a discussion about the product Bose produces today for home use.

Dr. Bose passed on about a few years ago. It might be interesting to see what he might have done with the technology available today if he had continued to serve the high end CE market.

As for TV's, well, Harmon International is now owned by Samsung. So it will be interesting to see where that marriage is 15 years from now. At this point, the bulk of their money is made from automotive product and the bulk of their CE speaker product is mid-fi as well. JBL Synthesis and Revel serve as high end product and out of reach for many.
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post #21 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
The Bose products available today no longer fit the audiophile field. Sorry not sorry. You can espouse the contributions Dr. Bose has made all you want...but how many home theater builds do you see using Bose speakers? Or two channel music setups?

Bose is a preference choice. Not a reference choice.
Sorry, I think you're missing my point entirely. The OP wanted to know how a 12 year old Bose product sounded better than his newer Denon, SVS, and Sony system with two Atmos speakers. I attempted to explain and I did not state that Bose was a company producing CE products aimed at the audiophile community today. But the Bose prejudice is quite strong here as expected.


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...but how many home theater builds do you see using Bose speakers? Or two channel music setups?
How many do I see? Well not a lot and I'm not really looking for them. Especially since they really don't build a lot of product for those markets nor do they aggressively market what they do manufacture. With audio source material primarily supplied as lossy or compressed streaming content today, one might ask why anything other than what Bose makes for the CE market is really necessary?

But, apparently there is enough product to have given Dr. Bose a net worth of something between 1-1.8 billion upon his death in 2013. He's received numerous honors and awards from MIT for teaching and the IEEE, RSE, and AES for speaker design and electronics. He's listed at MIT as one of the top 150 innovators to have come from MIT. So somebody likes the stuff and they buy it and peer group professional organizations have been impressed enough to honor his work and product.

What have you done lately?
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post #22 of 62 Old 04-27-2019, 07:39 PM
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Thank you for the much needed entertainment today
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post #23 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 07:06 AM
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Thank you for the much needed entertainment today
Have you ever critically listened to some of the older Bose units or are you just reciting the mantra?

Apparently the OP did and it got his attention. Enough so as to notice the difference and question his equipment.


I get your point and would even support it in a different context. But we're talking completely cross purpose here.

I'm not claiming that Bose is the best speaker in the world and what they manufacture for the home consumer market today is mostly disposable product. But, they have done a lot of things right and much of their work in acoustics's is baseline reference for audio products and the industry. They continue to be a driving force in the commercial world.

Bose reported $3.8 billion in revenue fiscal 2017. They are the same private company that Dr. Bose started in 1964 where he remained chairman until his death. Additionally, Dr. Bose managed his company while simultaneously teaching at MIT for 45 years. Bose endowed MIT with the majority of his company’s non-voting stock for the purpose of continuing education upon his death as well. Very few consumer electronic companies can make such claims and most surviving today have gone through divestiture, financial reorganization, multiple owners, etc. and are but a ghost of what they once were. Or they just closed up shop selling off their brand name to a Chinese company that sells cell phone accessories off the rack in checkout lines.

The 901 speaker was in production for 25 years. Acoustic modeling software developed by Bose was used to map and design sound systems for public spaces such as the Staples Center in Los Angeles and the Sistine Chapel among others. Bose was leading edge in automotive sound systems, coming to market in the late 70's early 80's with automotive sound systems designed to overcome road noise, improve stereo imaging, and fidelity. Mercedes and Porsche began installing Bose systems in 1982. Again, Bose seems to be doing something right in the world of audio and the engineering community around it or they are the luckiest sons of bitches in the world.


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Thank you for the much needed entertainment today
You're welcome! I'm happy you enjoyed the show!
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post #24 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 07:12 AM
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That you keep needing to recite market numbers to support the Bose products being released now a days in a community called Audio Video Science is the entertainment I am enjoying.

Keep your nostalgia train going if you'd like. But as I already said...how many dedicated 2-channel setups or consumer home theater enthusiast setups use Bose speakers for faithful reproduction and/or high dynamic clarity at/near reference levels? If someone wants to lend me a few Bose speakers I'll compare them to my PSA MT-110's watching Ready Player One around -10dB's from reference level...though we all know that's not going to end well for the Bose.
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post #25 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 09:26 AM
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Yes, it's a lot of points and Bose, in most cases, was the first to market with those points.

I think the bigger issue is, and perhaps not well delineated by my post, is that Bose was one of the first commercial audio companies to be cognoscente of hearing perception and room interaction with regards to speaker design. They were working with active EQ and room interaction decades before DSP processors were available. Regardless of hi-fi or mid-fi, we are still at the same point with better tools today and with many more consumers aware of speaker/room interactions and a will to correct and control. Something that Bose was attempting to do since the 60's.

The OP asked the question, ... "I looked at his speakers and it was tiny bose speakers and he said its from 12 years ago but sounded so much better. how, why?"
My attempt was to explain how that could be, and not a discussion about the product Bose produces today for home use.

Dr. Bose passed on about a few years ago. It might be interesting to see what he might have done with the technology available today if he had continued to serve the high end CE market.

As for TV's, well, Harmon International is now owned by Samsung. So it will be interesting to see where that marriage is 15 years from now. At this point, the bulk of their money is made from automotive product and the bulk of their CE speaker product is mid-fi as well. JBL Synthesis and Revel serve as high end product and out of reach for many.
Thank you for taking the time to help explain the points you were trying to make. I understand much better now and don't disagree with the points you made in your further explanation. There's a tendency among some to deify or demonize Bose in these discussions. A more balanced view acknowledges that over the years they've made positive contributions to the AV industry while pointing out that their current philosophy on speakers is questionable, especially when compared with the scientific work on acoustics and psychoacoustics that Dr. Floyd Toole began at Canada's NRC in 1965, just one year after Dr. Amar Bose founded his company.

While it's understandable that some might be attracted to the Bose sound, it's also true that Bose actively discouraged A/B testing of their speakers against others. Bose first set requirements that audio stores selling their speakers must have a separate listening room for Bose speakers and then opened their own company stores with only Bose products. If Bose speakers truly outperformed other brands in A/B testing one would have expected Bose would have welcomed those comparisons instead of discouraging them. It could be deduced that the magic of Bose psychoacoustics works best when not directly compared with the competition.

It's a real challenge to accept both the Bose concept of psychoacoustics and the results of research pioneered by Dr. Toole, which heavily featured A/B comparisons. The audio industry has largely cast its votes in favor of the research pioneered by Dr. Toole. The one area where Dr. Bose certainly came out on top was in personal wealth as he became a billionaire on the basis of marketing the Bose sound.
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post #26 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 09:34 AM
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That you keep needing to recite market numbers to support the Bose products being released now a days in a community called Audio Video Science is the entertainment I am enjoying.

Keep your nostalgia train going if you'd like. But as I already said...how many dedicated 2-channel setups or consumer home theater enthusiast setups use Bose speakers for faithful reproduction and/or high dynamic clarity at/near reference levels? If someone wants to lend me a few Bose speakers I'll compare them to my PSA MT-110's watching Ready Player One around -10dB's from reference level...though we all know that's not going to end well for the Bose.
Sigh...

I'm talking about the OP with regards to Bose technology... You want to have a battle of the bands...
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post #27 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 09:43 AM
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Sigh...

I'm talking about the OP with regards to Bose technology... You want to have a battle of the bands...

I agree with you on everything you have said regarding Dr. Bose and the quality of their products/sound reproduction many years ago. But I can't, in good conscience, not point out that current day Bose (dating back at least since the mid-2000's) is nothing more than mass marketing success and little to do with quality reproduction (if profits is how you define success in terms of audio quality we will severely disagree forever). As pointed out, nowadays Bose sound quality is akin to Vivid mode TV appeal...sure they catch the majority of consumers attention and result in sales, but it is not an indicator of actual sound quality when A/B comparison of reference material is performed. A comparable cost system one can piece together will always outperform a Bose in-the-box type setup. Just like a calibrated display will always outperform a Vivid mode on a TV...whether the average consumer will appreciate that is a whole different discussion (spoiler: most don't, which is why the AVS community is the small minority).
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post #28 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 09:58 AM
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There's a tendency among some to deify or demonize Bose in these discussions.
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The audio industry has largely cast its votes in favor of the research pioneered by Dr. Toole...
Mmm, I don't think so. Not saying Bose is the winner either, but many many many speaker companies do not seem to follow the flat on axis and even dispersion etc ethos started up north in the NRC National Research Center Canada. At least looking at measurements many don't, and certainly the only ones that talk about that are Harman (now Samsung) brands. Some many follow those ideas without talking about them I guess in order not to appear to be following a competitor.

The thing is, that philosophy is one thing to implement in pricey speakers with sophisticated drivers and complex crossovers. In something like a $50/pair Parts Express speakers, I'm not sure it is very possible. Makes me wonder how Harman applies their research in much cheaper products.

As for Bose, I once heard 901s sound really good, quite loud and clear, missing no bass and no highs. Same friend later sold them-they "never sounded right" in his new place. Also once heard a mini-cube system sound great playing some action movie clip, those guys loved their Bose.

A/B Bose with something "better" in exactly the same space they might have "lost" but the folks who say something like that miss the points:
- Real customers NEVER do that, it is way too difficult
- The Bose can sound quite good standalone
I *think* perhaps Bose products tend to be low distortion, but that's just a feeling.

Now, can we start to love/hate on the Bose QC headphones?
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post #29 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 10:00 AM
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I have a denon, receiver, a SVS sub and sony speakers and two atmos speakers, but mine don't like like his.
Which model of Sony speakers do you have? Have you done room EQ? Did your neighbor did room EQ?

It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion without know what speakers you have.

A restaurant we go to just added Bose cubes, I assume he's using the mini sub that goes with it, and it sounds really good.
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post #30 of 62 Old 04-28-2019, 10:01 AM
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I am thinking all these factors made his sound better than mine. Please validate.
I validate you!!!!
That will be $50 for my validation fee, please send to Old Pink, care of the Funny Farm, Chalfont.
The volume level in particular makes a HUGE HUGE difference in perception. Even a tiny volume jump is enough to wash out other effects, which is why A/B listening tests must be volume matched with a voltmeter or I don't trust them (I know many folks use pink noise + SPL meter but we never found that consistent enough. Certainly not for electronics; for speakers it becomes trickier).
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