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roodoob 05-20-2019 06:49 AM

Atmos
 
looking for a recommendation on a pair of "economical" speakers
to use on the rear wall/shelf of my rather smallish room
which will not allow for ceiling speakers to round out the typical Atmos setup

thanx

miketofani 05-20-2019 08:44 AM

I use the cheap Onkyo Atmos off amazon. They dont work with my non textured 8' flat ceiling. Its better to hang some in or on ceilings to experience Atmos the best. YMMV

roodoob 05-20-2019 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketofani (Post 58073418)
I use the cheap Onkyo Atmos off amazon. They dont work with my non textured 8' flat ceiling. Its better to hang some in or on ceilings to experience Atmos the best. YMMV

ceiling is a no-go ….wall behind the middle seat about 20-30" above ear height, 15-18" behind, is really my only spot and wires are already there, so … something along the lines of ; Jamo S8 , or Sony SSCSE in the $150 or less range is what I was thinking

Onkyo ? SKH- 410 , is this the suggestion ?

m0j0 05-20-2019 10:02 AM

Focal Sibs can be found for about 100 each and are great for atmos. Also, they have a lot of flexibility in terms of mounting options.

Dan Hitchman 05-20-2019 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roodoob (Post 58072896)
looking for a recommendation on a pair of "economical" speakers
to use on the rear wall/shelf of my rather smallish room
which will not allow for ceiling speakers to round out the typical Atmos setup

thanx


Could you give us some snaps of the room, so we can see what you're dealing with?

gajCA 05-20-2019 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roodoob (Post 58073738)
ceiling is a no-go ….wall behind the middle seat about 20-30" above ear height, 15-18" behind, is really my only spot and wires are already there, so … something along the lines of ; Jamo S8 , or Sony SSCSE in the $150 or less range is what I was thinking

Have you considered something like this?

https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...te-pair/1.html

sdbrewer 05-20-2019 12:04 PM

I'm using a pair of white Polk OWM3 as front heights. They're a great option as they can be mounted a number of different ways. I purchased mine for $99 shipped from PC Richard and Son.

khcoach 05-20-2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roodoob (Post 58073738)
ceiling is a no-go ….wall behind the middle seat about 20-30" above ear height, 15-18" behind, is really my only spot and wires are already there, so … something along the lines of ; Jamo S8 , or Sony SSCSE in the $150 or less range is what I was thinking

Onkyo ? SKH- 410 , is this the suggestion ?

the little Onkyo's are probably the worst of the upfiring dolby speakers. I think those Jamo's have to be used with other jamo speakers as they don't have speaker wire connections that i've seen in pics, just the feet connectors that attach to the top of the tower/bookshelves. I have the Pioneer Andrew Jones addons and they work decent once I was able to get them to bounce off an actual flat surface (had to attach some cheap foam boards to my popcorn/textured ceiling). If you're looking for cheapest upfiring i'd stick with the Pioneer's (on sale for $99 at times) or maybe the sony's.

agerson 05-20-2019 06:19 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I am considering a pair of

Pioneer - 4" Bookshelf Speakers
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/pioneer...?skuId=5086955

Placed on a 25-degree angled speaker stand
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...UA9RMP7P&psc=1

On top of my bookshelves on either side of my L/R. I was even thinking of putting them upside down with the tweeter on the bottom. Trying to emulate what the SVS prime elevation speakers are doing for less cost. This would be for a front height Atmos 5.1.2 setup. Is this a sane idea?

Dan Hitchman 05-20-2019 07:43 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58076270)
I am considering a pair of

Pioneer - 4" Bookshelf Speakers
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/pioneer...?skuId=5086955

Placed on a 25-degree angled speaker stand
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...UA9RMP7P&psc=1

On top of my bookshelves on either side of my L/R. I was even thinking of putting them upside down with the tweeter on the bottom. Trying to emulate what the SVS prime elevation speakers are doing for less cost. This would be for a front height Atmos 5.1.2 setup. Is this a sane idea?

If that's what you are trying to accomplish then get a pair of Polk OWM3 and a couple adustable wall mounts that are compatible with the mount connection on the back of the Polks. It would allow you to better adjust the angle of the heights.

If you have free side walls, they would be better locations than above the front speakers. If your receiver can output 4 heights or overheads, you should use 4 speakers.

The heights should also be at the juncture of the wall and ceiling.

sdbrewer 05-21-2019 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman (Post 58076622)
If that's what you are trying to accomplish then get a pair of Polk OWM3 and a couple adustable wall mounts that are compatible with the mount connection on the back of the Polks. It would allow you to better adjust the angle of the heights.

If you have free side walls, they would be better locations than above the front speakers. If your receiver can output 4 heights or overheads, you should use 4 speakers.

The heights should also be at the juncture of the wall and ceiling.


In a x.x.2 setup, you'd recommend the heights placed on the side wall as opposed to above the front speakers? I see this setup suggested by SVS for their Prime Elevations, but I can't find any other documentation recommending it.

agerson 05-21-2019 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman (Post 58076622)
If that's what you are trying to accomplish then get a pair of Polk OWM3 and a couple adustable wall mounts that are compatible with the mount connection on the back of the Polks. It would allow you to better adjust the angle of the heights.

If you have free side walls, they would be better locations than above the front speakers. If your receiver can output 4 heights or overheads, you should use 4 speakers.

The heights should also be at the juncture of the wall and ceiling.

The problem is my walls are concrete, and there is a radiator on the side wall, so there is no way for me to hide the speaker wire running up the wall. So I was going to use the bookcase to hide the wire going up. Then I need something that doesn't wall mount as I need it to stick out over the rim of the bookcase.

agerson 05-21-2019 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdbrewer (Post 58077152)
In a x.x.2 setup, you'd recommend the heights placed on the side wall as opposed to above the front speakers? I see this setup suggested by SVS for their Prime Elevations, but I can't find any other documentation recommending it.

SVS recommends side or front?

cathodeRay 05-21-2019 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58077882)
The problem is my walls are concrete, and there is a radiator on the side wall, so there is no way for me to hide the speaker wire running up the wall. So I was going to use the bookcase to hide the wire going up. Then I need something that doesn't wall mount as I need it to stick out over the rim of the bookcase.

"Front Heights" is the proper name for Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz front-high speakers, but others have shown they can be used as Atmos' too.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...-speakers.html
https://www.avsforum.com/svs-prime-5...system-review/

Info from Dolby here: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/speaker-...des/index.html

Dan Hitchman 05-21-2019 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdbrewer (Post 58077152)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman (Post 58076622)
If that's what you are trying to accomplish then get a pair of Polk OWM3 and a couple adustable wall mounts that are compatible with the mount connection on the back of the Polks. It would allow you to better adjust the angle of the heights.

If you have free side walls, they would be better locations than above the front speakers. If your receiver can output 4 heights or overheads, you should use 4 speakers.

The heights should also be at the juncture of the wall and ceiling.


In a x.x.2 setup, you'd recommend the heights placed on the side wall as opposed to above the front speakers? I see this setup suggested by SVS for their Prime Elevations, but I can't find any other documentation recommending it.

Better speaker seperation from the dominate front wall speakers and an increase in immersion sensation... if the ceiling is unavailable. You would still set the side wall Heights as Tops in the receiver for proper object behavior.

Dan Hitchman 05-21-2019 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58077884)
Quote:

Originally Posted by sdbrewer (Post 58077152)
In a x.x.2 setup, you'd recommend the heights placed on the side wall as opposed to above the front speakers? I see this setup suggested by SVS for their Prime Elevations, but I can't find any other documentation recommending it.

SVS recommends side or front?

Side Heights with Tops designation in the setup menu.

Dan Hitchman 05-21-2019 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58077882)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman (Post 58076622)
If that's what you are trying to accomplish then get a pair of Polk OWM3 and a couple adustable wall mounts that are compatible with the mount connection on the back of the Polks. It would allow you to better adjust the angle of the heights.

If you have free side walls, they would be better locations than above the front speakers. If your receiver can output 4 heights or overheads, you should use 4 speakers.

The heights should also be at the juncture of the wall and ceiling.

The problem is my walls are concrete, and there is a radiator on the side wall, so there is no way for me to hide the speaker wire running up the wall. So I was going to use the bookcase to hide the wire going up. Then I need something that doesn't wall mount as I need it to stick out over the rim of the bookcase.

Maybe not the most aesthetically pleasing choice, but you can get concrete wall anchors and wire molding to cover the speaker wire. Paint the wire chases to better blend with the wall color.

roodoob 05-21-2019 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman (Post 58074144)
Could you give us some snaps of the room, so we can see what you're dealing with?

room is 15' wide ….
from tv screen to my center sitting position is 11' …

my Aperion set up has; 2 towers / center / sub, positioned uniformly about screen …
the 2 surround speakers L/R , equidistant from the L/R pieces (recliners) of the 3 seat entertainment seating …

problem is, as I see it,
only 20-22" from my head to the rear wall and
the current speakers about 18-20" above that, hanging from a shelf made, specifically for them …

the ceiling is NOT an option, however, I can (would/could) extend the new (rear) speakers,
a little higher up the wall …
I have approx. 30" to play with, if that is going to give me a "much improved" effect ?!? the ceiling is 9' …

I am not opposed to paying a little more for these replacement speakers, if they were really going to impact the movie experience,
but 85-90% of the time, the system is playing music , as I am about the house doin "stuff" …

to clarify : Denon AVRX2200W / Aperion Bravus 8D sub / Intimus 5C ctr. / Intimus 4T tower / Intimus 4B surr

thanx

roodoob 05-21-2019 08:32 AM

perhaps the better question, which I have not asked yet ….

for the "true" or "best" Atmos sound effect ... does the sound have to come off the ceiling...
either in speakers placed in the ceiling, firing downward or facing into the ceiling reflected downward ?
or
can this "optimal" sound effect be achieved with mounting on a wall, either upside down (for some models) or at an angle, which in my particular scenario, I could do by manufacturing something, to attain that effect (angle)
and
to take it a step further, is the "Atmos enabled" speaker, going to be significantly better (more noticeable)
than say a same size quality unit ?

again … thanx all

Dan Hitchman 05-21-2019 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roodoob (Post 58078398)
perhaps the better question, which I have not asked yet ….

for the "true" or "best" Atmos sound effect ... does the sound have to come off the ceiling...
either in speakers placed in the ceiling, firing downward or facing into the ceiling reflected downward ?
or
can this "optimal" sound effect be achieved with mounting on a wall, either upside down (for some models) or at an angle, which in my particular scenario, I could do by manufacturing something, to attain that effect (angle)
and
to take it a step further, is the "Atmos enabled" speaker, going to be significantly better (more noticeable)
than say a same size quality unit ?

again … thanx all


The best Atmos experience is on or in-ceiling speakers in the Top Front and Top Rear position (for a basic setup - obviously, you can have up to 10 in the home version). If you can only do two, then Top Middle. Aimed toward the main listening position or straight down. The latter is if you have wide dispersion speakers like a coaxial driver from KEF or Tannoy.



Enabled up-firing speakers are probably the worst out of any of the choices. They give you a pseudo effect.

gajCA 05-21-2019 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roodoob (Post 58072896)
looking for a recommendation on a pair of "economical" speakers
to use on the rear wall/shelf of my rather smallish room
which will not allow for ceiling speakers to round out the typical Atmos setup

thanx

Look at post 15 here.

He did a very interesting experiment.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post58075596

Dan Hitchman 05-21-2019 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gajCA (Post 58079328)
Quote:

Originally Posted by roodoob (Post 58072896)
looking for a recommendation on a pair of "economical" speakers
to use on the rear wall/shelf of my rather smallish room
which will not allow for ceiling speakers to round out the typical Atmos setup

thanx

Look at post 15 here.

He did a very interesting experiment.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post58075596

It depends on the movie mix. Just like some engineers do a better job at using the surrounds than others.

sdbrewer 05-21-2019 11:29 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58077884)
SVS recommends side or front?


According to their website, SVS recommends placing their Prime Elevations on the side for a x.x.2 setup.


Attachment 2569748

sdbrewer 05-21-2019 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman (Post 58077984)
Side Heights with Tops designation in the setup menu.


I'll give this a try. My Polk OWM3s are currently placed in a front height position. I'll move them to the sides sometime this week and see if it doesn't improve the experience.

agerson 05-21-2019 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdbrewer (Post 58079432)
I'll give this a try. My Polk OWM3s are currently placed in a front height position. I'll move them to the sides sometime this week and see if it doesn't improve the experience.

How good is the effect with them in the front height position? Is it worth spending money on some new speakers?

sdbrewer 05-21-2019 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58079592)
How good is the effect with them in the front height position? Is it worth spending money on some new speakers?


I can pick up on the effect, but the truth is there isn't a lot of information sent to the speakers. Certainly not as much as the surrounds. I'm eager to try my speakers on the side wall, as I think that would give a more immersive effect. I'm using a pair of white Polk OWM3 (~$100 at PC Richard). I already had the drywall anchors and speaker cable, so it hasn't been a huge investment to get to experiment with Atmos.

usc1995 05-21-2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58079592)
How good is the effect with them in the front height position? Is it worth spending money on some new speakers?


Speakers in the Front Height position really act to create a taller front soundstage but they do not give the sensation of the sound bubble that we are trying to get with Atmos. That sound bubble comes from having sound coming at you from directly above either by a ceiling speaker or reflected from above under ideal circumstances. If you can’t have sound from directly above then the best compromise is as high as possible directly to the sides of the MLP like what SVS advocates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

agerson 05-21-2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdbrewer (Post 58079718)
I can pick up on the effect, but the truth is there isn't a lot of information sent to the speakers. Certainly not as much as the surrounds. I'm eager to try my speakers on the side wall, as I think that would give a more immersive effect. I'm using a pair of white Polk OWM3 (~$100 at PC Richard). I already had the drywall anchors and speaker cable, so it hasn't been a huge investment to get to experiment with Atmos.

Do you think the lack of effect is due to location, or the speaker type designation on the receiver?

gajCA 05-21-2019 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdbrewer (Post 58079718)
I can pick up on the effect, but the truth is there isn't a lot of information sent to the speakers. Certainly not as much as the surrounds. I'm eager to try my speakers on the side wall, as I think that would give a more immersive effect. I'm using a pair of white Polk OWM3 (~$100 at PC Richard). I already had the drywall anchors and speaker cable, so it hasn't been a huge investment to get to experiment with Atmos.

I linked your Atmos thoughts in another thread and one poster found the same thing using streaming for Netflix etc but when he watched the BluRay of the same movie the Atmos effects were far far more prominent/effective in his opinion.

sdbrewer 05-21-2019 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agerson (Post 58079832)
Do you think the lack of effect is due to location, or the speaker type designation on the receiver?


I can't say for sure if it's speaker location until I move them to the sides to compare, but I imagine they'll perform better in that position.


I don't believe it's speaker type designation on the receiver, as I cycled through the different designation options to see if the audio changed. The main difference I found between the "front height" setting and the others were the front heights brought in some of the information usually sent to the fronts.


An example of this is the rooftop rain scene in Blade Runner 2049. Set as front heights, the speakers included the sound of a slow drip hitting a tin roof. *Ping. Ping. Ping.* When set to top front, top middle, front Dolby Atmos Enabled speaker, or surround Dolby Atmos Enabled speaker, the slow drip/ping sound moved to the fronts and was removed from the x.x.2 speakers.


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