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post #121 of 194 Old 06-03-2019, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I hope you can at least pull them out slightly past the edges of those bookshelves - your dispersion pattern is being blocked and you'll lose the stereo effect.


yeah i absolutely can do that, that’s just how i keep it most of the day when i’m not using it or just playing barney an stuff lol.
if i’m listening to my music or watching something i can pull the gate off and can pull the speaker out another 1.5” to clear the sides

thanks for the tip
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post #122 of 194 Old 06-03-2019, 06:41 PM
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yeah i absolutely can do that, that’s just how i keep it most of the day when i’m not using it or just playing barney an stuff lol.
if i’m listening to my music or watching something i can pull the gate off and can pull the speaker out another 1.5” to clear the sides

thanks for the tip
Another suggestion is to pull your center channel out to the front edge of the entertainment stand to eliminate reflection.

Just another one of those little things that can make a difference.
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post #123 of 194 Old 06-03-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
yeah i absolutely can do that, that’s just how i keep it most of the day when i’m not using it or just playing barney an stuff lol.
if i’m listening to my music or watching something i can pull the gate off and can pull the speaker out another 1.5” to clear the sides

thanks for the tip
Oof, moving 40 lb tower speakers a few inches forward every time you want to listen to some music or watch TV... sounds like something you won't bother to do after the first 2-3 times. Is there a reason they can't at least be parallel with the furniture? That'll give you most of the acoustic benefit. Right now you have those drivers blasting right into the sides of your furniture...

Sucks to be without the towers for a week or two. I'm sure that just playing everything out of that center channel speaker is going to still be a million times better than whatever sound was coming out of your TV before.

Maybe you can use your surrounds for left/right while the tower is out. Once in a while I'll see speaker stands on Craigslist for cheap/free.
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post #124 of 194 Old 06-03-2019, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Oof, moving 40 lb tower speakers a few inches forward every time you want to listen to some music or watch TV... sounds like something you won't bother to do after the first 2-3 times. Is there a reason they can't at least be parallel with the furniture? That'll give you most of the acoustic benefit. Right now you have those drivers blasting right into the sides of your furniture...
the picture makes it look worse then it is for the towers and yeah i can pull-up them enough forward to where if u didn’t move item it may be ok, but with the grills on it has to be farther back to clear it.





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Sucks to be without the towers for a week or two. I'm sure that just playing everything out of that center channel speaker is going to still be a million times better than whatever sound was coming out of your TV before.



Maybe you can use your surrounds for left/right while the tower is out. Once in a while I'll see speaker stands on Craigslist for cheap/free.

yes i’m positive it will be better then the two 2” tv speakers facing the wall inside and behind the tv haha.

and yeah they actually fit nicely on top of the cabinet too.
interesting and cool the way they are designed.

2 front facing bipole tweeters with a rear facing 5.25” woofer.
if it’s wall mounted the woofer plays facing 2” away from the wall
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post #125 of 194 Old 06-03-2019, 10:17 PM
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...
and yeah they actually fit nicely on top of the cabinet too.
interesting and cool the way they are designed.

2 front facing bipole tweeters with a rear facing 5.25” woofer.
if it’s wall mounted the woofer plays facing 2” away from the wall
Oh for some reason I thought you had gotten the R152 bookshelves for surround speakers, didn't realize you got the RS152s. Didn't realize the name was only one character different. I suspect the RS152s are designed to sound good wall-mounted, i.e., with the woofer output reflecting off a wall immediately. But it's a temporary situation and if you think it sounds good, cool.
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post #126 of 194 Old 06-04-2019, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh for some reason I thought you had gotten the R152 bookshelves for surround speakers, didn't realize you got the RS152s. Didn't realize the name was only one character different. I suspect the RS152s are designed to sound good wall-mounted, i.e., with the woofer output reflecting off a wall immediately. But it's a temporary situation and if you think it sounds good, cool.


yeah i like em, they are very nice and solid looking, also will look very clean on the back wall vs a small bookshelf.
been reading a lot about the rears not needing to be massive or crazy expensive since how little there used and how something simple but also designed for the rear is all you need.
(for me that is)

i’m sure there are ppl that will explain how their 5k+ rears are amazing and worth it
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post #127 of 194 Old 06-04-2019, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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i completely forgot i had these but maybe this is a good time to plug in my dads old realistic optimus-5 from the 70's

they didn’t work about 15 years ago so i had radio shack take them in and service them since they have a “lifetime warranty”

they told me it’s the only and last time they will do that tho since it’s such an old product.

apparently they just needed to be cleaned or something tho

i have the original realistic avr that came with the speakers somewhere too but can’t find anywhere!
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post #128 of 194 Old 06-04-2019, 11:28 AM
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I’d go find the old receiver, personally wouldn’t take a chance connecting to my new AVR on the off chance they actually needed more than a cleaning lol but you have fun with that
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post #129 of 194 Old 06-04-2019, 01:49 PM
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I’d go find the old receiver, personally wouldn’t take a chance connecting to my new AVR on the off chance they actually needed more than a cleaning lol but you have fun with that
I doubt anything could really go wrong. Any receiver is going to have overload/short-circuit protections, no? People are always saying that if you try to drive speakers that are too power-hungry with a cheap AVR that it will just trigger its protection mechanisms and shut down...
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post #130 of 194 Old 06-10-2019, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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HT System advice for $1500 budget with questions

tower gets delivered back to them tm, just a waiting game.

sub is here but it’s hard to test it out with just a center, and no point in even trying to tune anything yet

EDIT: and yes i am still going to pull the tower past the cabinet edge, just waiting
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post #131 of 194 Old 06-11-2019, 12:00 AM
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tower gets delivered back to them tm, just a waiting game.

sub is here but it’s hard to test it out with just a center, and no point in even trying to tune anything yet ...
Meh, there's nothing about a subwoofer that makes it better suited to more than one main speaker. I say fire it up and see how it sounds. Just set your receiver to cross over at 80Hz, should sound alright without any fine tuning.

EDIT: Reading this message again, pretty awkward wording, sorry. I should say that a subwoofer is just as useful for one main speaker as it is for multiple main speakers.

Last edited by motrek; 06-11-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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post #132 of 194 Old 06-13-2019, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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it is perfectly clear to me now why everyone says the sub is the most important part of the system..very clear

even tho the infinity R12 is not one of the popular high end subs i love it for my current situation and for only $160..

my replacement r253 tower was overnighted yesterday and i got everything all set up just now.

although i did try it with just the center while waiting but it was nothing compared to the towers obviously.

i ran through the audyssey xt32 after reading so half of the
“Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences” so far.

ended up doing it myself much better, got the sub at -11.5 trim tho so i can’t adjust either through the trim on the avr or the gain an that was my main goal for the xt32

i like the speakers much much better on small with 80-90 crossover with the sub handling the low end vs the towers on large plus the sub like audyssey came back with.

this is incredible.

that’s for all the help, recommendations and tips!
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post #133 of 194 Old 06-13-2019, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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above and beyond by bassnectar is an amazing track for bass!
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post #134 of 194 Old 06-13-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
it is perfectly clear to me now why everyone says the sub is the most important part of the system..very clear

even tho the infinity R12 is not one of the popular high end subs i love it for my current situation and for only $160..

my replacement r253 tower was overnighted yesterday and i got everything all set up just now.

although i did try it with just the center while waiting but it was nothing compared to the towers obviously.

i ran through the audyssey xt32 after reading so half of the
“Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences” so far.

ended up doing it myself much better, got the sub at -11.5 trim tho so i can’t adjust either through the trim on the avr or the gain an that was my main goal for the xt32
If that means the receiver is decreasing subwoofer volume by 11.5 dB (?) then you might want to turn the sub volume down. It probably doesn't matter much, but no sense in sending a weak signal to the sub just to have it boosted again.

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i like the speakers much much better on small with 80-90 crossover with the sub handling the low end vs the towers on large plus the sub like audyssey came back with.
Is it possible that, with the towers set to large, the subwoofer was only playing the LFE channel (which would be nothing unless you're listening to 5.1 content)?

https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answe...-small-setting

Might try setting the towers back to large and setting the subwoofer to "LFE + Main" to boost the low bass that the towers can't cover. Just a thought.

EDIT: I guess this might only be good for stereo content. Re-reading that link, it sounds like if you have a center channel then you probably just want to set everything to small. You'll still be getting some benefit of having tower speakers instead of bookshelves, since the towers will be able to play below 100Hz without leaning on port output... should be more clear in the ~80Hz range...

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this is incredible.

that’s for all the help, recommendations and tips!
Sounds like a great setup, glad you're happy with it!

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post #135 of 194 Old 06-13-2019, 08:49 PM
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It is generally recommended during Audyssey setup to use a sub gain that produces a -6 to -12 level on the subs. That way, you can boost them (often needed) a lot via the AVR before reaching 0, avoiding clipping. I'm not sure if clipping was a real problem, but that's the typical procedure.

With the mains set to large, you're probably getting double bass, or LFE+Main, which isn't recommended.
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post #136 of 194 Old 06-13-2019, 08:56 PM
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It is generally recommended during Audyssey setup to use a sub gain that produces a -6 to -12 level on the subs. That way, you can boost them (often needed) a lot via the AVR before reaching 0, avoiding clipping. I'm not sure if clipping was a real problem, but that's the typical procedure.

With the mains set to large, you're probably getting double bass, or LFE+Main, which isn't recommended.
I stand corrected, sounds like you know what you're talking about. Just curious, why would an AVR need to boost subwoofer output? As part of a "bass boost" feature or something?
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post #137 of 194 Old 06-13-2019, 09:10 PM
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I stand corrected, sounds like you know what you're talking about. Just curious, why would an AVR need to boost subwoofer output? As part of a "bass boost" feature or something?
Bass levels post-Audyssey are often underwhelming
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post #138 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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HT System advice for $1500 budget with questions

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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
I stand corrected, sounds like you know what you're talking about. Just curious, why would an AVR need to boost subwoofer output? As part of a "bass boost" feature or something?

a very long post about sub/avr tuning but very very cool if u get a chance to read it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...topics/2958528





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post #139 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible that, with the towers set to large, the subwoofer was only playing the LFE channel (which would be nothing unless you're listening to 5.1 content)?



https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answe...-small-setting



Might try setting the towers back to large and setting the subwoofer to "LFE + Main" to boost the low bass that the towers can't cover. Just a thought.



EDIT: I guess this might only be good for stereo content. Re-reading that link, it sounds like if you have a center channel then you probably just want to set everything to small. You'll still be getting some benefit of having tower speakers instead of bookshelves, since the towers will be able to play below 100Hz without leaning on port output... should be more clear in the ~80Hz range..


from everything i’ve read or been told so far is to set it (currently Have it this way but i’ve tried it both)LFE+ main, small with crossover at 80Hz


for denon if the speakers are set to small the all the LFE and anything the speakers would play below the 80hz cross go to the sub, giving exrta power for unused bottom end that crossed to the top end above the 80hz cross.

also sending all sub 80hz from the main speakers to the sub and in my case the sub handles it much better the the towers do

if i set it to lfe+main large then the sub still plays both like before but the speakers don’t have a crossover and they also try to play everything and in my case it sounds very muddy and distorted (still learning terms)
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post #140 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 08:10 AM
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from everything i’ve read or been told so far is to set it (currently Have it this way but i’ve tried it both)LFE+ main, small with crossover at 80Hz


for denon if the speakers are set to small the all the LFE and anything the speakers would play below the 80hz cross go to the sub, giving exrta power for unused bottom end that crossed to the top end above the 80hz cross.

also sending all sub 80hz from the main speakers to the sub and in my case the sub handles it much better the the towers do

if i set it to lfe+main large then the sub still plays both like before but the speakers don’t have a crossover and they also try to play everything and in my case it sounds very muddy and distorted (still learning terms)
This is correct. Plus, it will also force the AVR to use more power by having to output those lower frequencies through the mains, so setting them to small (80Hz)/LFE will definitely yield a much cleaner response. Another reason why having a powered sub is useful, as it helps eliminate using AVR power unecessarily. Hence, the reason why it's recommended keeping the sub trim level in the negative numbers.

Also, whenever you're using the small/LFE crossover settings, your speakers/subs are still playing those other frequencies. They're just rolling off/increasing at the 80Hz crossover point. So it's not like there's a complete shut-off/brick wall effect happening.

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post #141 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
a very long post about sub/avr tuning but very very cool if u get a chance to read it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...topics/2958528
...
Cool, I read the post but I don't think it's as complicated as they're making it out to be.

Basically your receiver is outputting the signal at one volume and the speaker (subwoofer) is set to another volume, and if you multiply the two, that's the actual volume.

It's the same thing as having a pair of computer speakers (with their own volume control) plugged into your computer. If you set your computer to 50% volume, and the speakers to 50% volume, then the actual volume you hear is obviously going to be 25%. (That's not exactly how the math works but it's good enough to understand what's going on.)

If you turn the volume way down on the computer, then you have to turn the volume way up on the speakers to get a useful total. That means the signal from the computer is kinda crap, because it's a low level and very close to the noise floor, so it's unnecessary noisy. And plus it's lower resolution. And plus you have to run the amp on the speakers closer to its maximum level, which is the zone where amps perform the worst. So the result is that you're hearing static when it's supposed to be silent and the amp is probably distorting.

So that's why it's much better to run at ~80% volume from your computer (to avoid distortion from the DAC) and control the volume with the knob on the computer speakers.

Similarly, it's going to be better to run your receiver subwoofer level closer to 0 and control its volume with the volume knob on the back of the subwoofer. Exactly how much better, who knows, but it's theoretically better. The only reason you'd want to run at less than 0 is if you think you'll need to turn the subwoofer volume up via the receiver, and I'm not sure why you would even want to do that, unless you're running Audyssey again or something. Otherwise just use the knob?
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post #142 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 09:28 AM
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This is correct. Plus, it will also force the AVR to use more power by having to output those lower frequencies through the mains, so setting them to small (80Hz)/LFE will definitely yield a much cleaner response. Another reason why having a powered sub is useful, as it helps eliminate using AVR power unecessarily. Hence, the reason why it's recommended keeping the sub trim level in the negative numbers. ...
I was following you up until the part of the sub trim level. Is this not just a volume control for the subwoofer? Maybe I'm missing something here.
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post #143 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
This is correct. Plus, it will also force the AVR to use more power by having to output those lower frequencies through the mains, so setting them to small (80Hz)/LFE will definitely yield a much cleaner response. Another reason why having a powered sub is useful, as it helps eliminate using AVR power unecessarily. Hence, the reason why it's recommended keeping the sub trim level in the negative numbers. ...
I was following you up until the part of the sub trim level. Is this not just a volume control for the subwoofer? Maybe I'm missing something here.
I believe the issue was to avoid clipping the signal somewhere in the chain, because post-Audyssey we usually raise sub levels; some of us, a lot. Your points about signal to noise are valid, I just don't know if that makes a real-world difference in this case.

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post #144 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 11:46 AM
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from everything i’ve read or been told so far is to set it (currently Have it this way but i’ve tried it both)LFE+ main, small with crossover at 80Hz


for denon if the speakers are set to small the all the LFE and anything the speakers would play below the 80hz cross go to the sub, giving exrta power for unused bottom end that crossed to the top end above the 80hz cross.

also sending all sub 80hz from the main speakers to the sub and in my case the sub handles it much better the the towers do

if i set it to lfe+main large then the sub still plays both like before but the speakers don’t have a crossover and they also try to play everything and in my case it sounds very muddy and distorted (still learning terms)
This is correct. Plus, it will also force the AVR to use more power by having to output those lower frequencies through the mains, so setting them to small (80Hz)/LFE will definitely yield a much cleaner response. Another reason why having a powered sub is useful, as it helps eliminate using AVR power unecessarily. Hence, the reason why it's recommended keeping the sub trim level in the negative numbers.

Also, whenever you're using the small/LFE crossover settings, your speakers/subs are still playing those other frequencies. They're just rolling off/increasing at the 80Hz crossover point. So it's not like there's a complete shut-off/brick wall effect happening.
And the main reason it will sound cleaner is because you're avoiding running multiple bass sources that are not time aligned and summed, and are located in different parts of the room. With LFE + Main, you're going to get constructive and destructive interference at various frequencies that will wreck any chance at a smooth bass response.
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post #145 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 12:25 PM
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I believe the issue was to avoid clipping the signal somewhere in the chain, because post-Audyssey we usually raise sub levels; some of us, a lot. Your points about signal to noise are valid, I just don't know if that makes a real-world difference in this case.
Not only signal-to-noise, but turning the volume up on the subwoofer just to amplify a weak signal from the receiver is not optimal either. Amps distort more when turned up more. So there are multiple reasons to not turn down the subwoofer volume via the receiver.

As long as the subwoofer trim isn't set to a positive number on the receiver, I assume clipping is impossible. So what would the disadvantage be to just setting it to 0 and adjusting the subwoofer volume with the knob on the subwoofer?
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post #146 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 12:48 PM
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I believe the issue was to avoid clipping the signal somewhere in the chain, because post-Audyssey we usually raise sub levels; some of us, a lot. Your points about signal to noise are valid, I just don't know if that makes a real-world difference in this case.
Not only signal-to-noise, but turning the volume up on the subwoofer just to amplify a weak signal from the receiver is not optimal either. Amps distort more when turned up more. So there are multiple reasons to not turn down the subwoofer volume via the receiver.

As long as the subwoofer trim isn't set to a positive number on the receiver, I assume clipping is impossible. So what would the disadvantage be to just setting it to 0 and adjusting the subwoofer volume with the knob on the subwoofer?
It would be a good question to ask in the Audyssey (2) thread. I would like to see the answer.

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post #147 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Not only signal-to-noise, but turning the volume up on the subwoofer just to amplify a weak signal from the receiver is not optimal either. Amps distort more when turned up more. So there are multiple reasons to not turn down the subwoofer volume via the receiver.

As long as the subwoofer trim isn't set to a positive number on the receiver, I assume clipping is impossible. So what would the disadvantage be to just setting it to 0 and adjusting the subwoofer volume with the knob on the subwoofer?
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It would be a good question to ask in the Audyssey (2) thread. I would like to see the answer.
@motrek , I'm not sure where you're getting your information on sub calibration settings using the AVR's room correction software. What's being suggested here has nothing to do with weak signals from the receiver. Nor have there been suggestions to turn down the sub via the AVR's trim level. It's the complete opposite of that.

The whole idea is to give yourself plenty headroom on the AVR to bump the trim level up 3-5db hot if you want to...which most people want to. And thus far I haven't heard of anybody complaining about damaging their subs by following this method...EVER! Myself included, as that's where I run my sub.

Where you adjust your sub's gain level to achieve a -9/-10db trim level post calibration is going to vary depending on where your sub is placed, and how far from the MLP it is. I've never heard of anyone having to turn their gain to max in order to achieve this. Although, I have heard of people running their subs at max gain and adjusting the trim to compensate, but that's a rare few. Even Ed Mullen/SVS President told them that it wouldn't hurt anything so long as you're not overdriving the sub's driver.

Also, I've always been told that you want to have a cut off point on the the trim level at around -5db. Why this is, I really don't recall. I've just always followed the recommendations given by those who know more than me. Lol
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post #148 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 02:46 PM
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@motrek , I'm not sure where you're getting your information on sub calibration settings using the AVR's room correction software. What's being suggested here has nothing to do with weak signals from the receiver.
I'm not saying anything about room correction software. All I'm talking about is increasing the signal from the receiver and turning the sub's amp down in order to get the exact same effective volume.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have the subwoofer trim set to -10dB on your receiver, isn't the signal to the subwoofer 10dB less than what it would be if you had the trim set to 0? How is that not a weaker signal?

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Nor have there been suggestions to turn down the sub via the AVR's trim level. It's the complete opposite of that.
And yet people on this thread are suggesting that it's a good idea to run at -10dB trim, which means that the subwoofer is turned down by -10dB at the receiver, right?

Quote:
The whole idea is to give yourself plenty headroom on the AVR to bump the trim level up 3-5db hot if you want to...which most people want to. And thus far I haven't heard of anybody complaining about damaging their subs by following this method...EVER! Myself included, as that's where I run my sub.
Okay, great, set up your receiver and subwoofer however you want. If you want to be able to occasionally turn up the subwoofer volume on your receiver, great. In that case you will need to run with some negative trim normally. I don't see how that's better than using the knob on the back of the subwoofer but it's your equipment.

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Where you adjust your sub's gain level to achieve a -9/-10db trim level post calibration is going to vary depending on where your sub is placed, and how far from the MLP it is. I've never heard of anyone having to turn their gain to max in order to achieve this. Although, I have heard of people running their subs at max gain and adjusting the trim to compensate, but that's a rare few. Even Ed Mullen/SVS President told them that it wouldn't hurt anything so long as you're not overdriving the sub's driver.
I never said anything about max gain. But it's a well-understood property of amps that, as you turn up the volume/amplification, distortion increases. You don't have to turn an amp to max in order to get distortion.

So the scenario we're talking about is that somebody is running at -10dB trim on their receiver. Okay great. They could achieve same result by setting the trim on the receiver to 0 and then turning down the subwoofer amplifier to 10% of what it was set at. (Remember that 10dB requires 10x the power.)

So you get a stronger signal from the receiver (10x the amplitude = much better resolution and signal:noise ratio) going to the subwoofer, and the subwoofer's amp only has to work 1/10th as hard, and you end up with the same effective subwoofer volume. The only practical difference is that if you want to increase the volume of the sub, you have to stand up and go turn a knob instead of press a button on your remote. I know which I would choose, is all I'm saying.
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post #149 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 02:51 PM
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It would be a good question to ask in the Audyssey (2) thread. I would like to see the answer.
If you're talking about Audyssey, then yeah, you'll want to turn the subwoofer volume up in order to give Audyssey a wider range of potential subwoofer volumes to work with.

But it sounds like Audyssey does a crap job with subwoofer volume anyway, if people keep having to turn up their subwoofers after running Audyssey.

So all I'm saying is, set the subwoofer trim to 0 and adjust its volume with the knob after running Audyssey. If you were going to change the subwoofer's volume anyway, then why not.
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post #150 of 194 Old 06-14-2019, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
If you're talking about Audyssey, then yeah, you'll want to turn the subwoofer volume up in order to give Audyssey a wider range of potential subwoofer volumes to work with.



But it sounds like Audyssey does a crap job with subwoofer volume anyway, if people keep having to turn up their subwoofers after running Audyssey.



So all I'm saying is, set the subwoofer trim to 0 and adjust its volume with the knob after running Audyssey. If you were going to change the subwoofer's volume anyway, then why not.


ideally it should be -5 not -10, the -5 is recommended even by SVS so that is never has the chance of running over 0.0 and only uses power from the sub amp and NEVER the avr power to push it.

like if i have my sub trim set to 0.0 and i also have DEQ enabled (like i do) where it will sent a small bass boost when i’m not running my MV at a ref level of 0.0 that’s what you technically don’t want cuz at that point it steels power from the av.
your better off running -5 and if it needs to take a little it will take it from the extra amp power and not the avr.

i also read if your at 0.0 trim and certain songs or movies are recorded differently it can use more then just the amp and also take from the avr and push u over into the positives.

edit:
also yes i will be adjusting my sub through the knob anyway.

what audyssey does is make sure every speaker including the sub is at 75db so if my gin is a little high it just holds on to that exrta power at the avr to make it 75 also.

Last edited by rbfastback; 06-14-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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