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post #151 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
If you're talking about Audyssey, then yeah, you'll want to turn the subwoofer volume up in order to give Audyssey a wider range of potential subwoofer volumes to work with.

But it sounds like Audyssey does a crap job with subwoofer volume anyway, if people keep having to turn up their subwoofers after running Audyssey.

So all I'm saying is, set the subwoofer trim to 0 and adjust its volume with the knob after running Audyssey. If you were going to change the subwoofer's volume anyway, then why not.
After calibrating to 75dB (step 1), Audyssey typically returns a negative sub value. It can be anywhere from -1 to -10 in my experience. It's rare that you end up around 0.

What hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that Audyssey is creating filters to adjust the amplitude of each frequency of your sub (step 2). Whether you end up at a volume of 0 and a weak boost to the bass portion of the curve, or -10 and a strong boost, it's all in the target curve. Either way, the total signal going to the sub is the same (step 3). That is where the difference is, not on the volume knob.

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post #152 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
@rbfastback ,

Here are some links to threads that will help you with tweaks to get things dialed in. It's alot of reading, but the information documented will help you out tremendously. Make sure to read through the info given on these prior to asking questions.

The 1st link is for the Official 2017 Denon AVR Thread. This will give you specifics on your X3400H, and you should be able to get plenty of feedback from people who actually own your AVR as well.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...sts-1-8-a.html

The 2nd link is the Offical Audyssey Thread.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...d-part-ii.html

Lastly, this is the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences. This guide also has helpful tips on running your Audyssey calibration.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html

@jdsmoothie , @kbarnes701 , and @mthomas47 have shared a ton of knowledge and put a lot of time & effort into these guides to help folks like us get the most out of our systems, so this is where you will get the best info to get to where you want to be.


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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
I'm not saying anything about room correction software. All I'm talking about is increasing the signal from the receiver and turning the sub's amp down in order to get the exact same effective volume.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have the subwoofer trim set to -10dB on your receiver, isn't the signal to the subwoofer 10dB less than what it would be if you had the trim set to 0? How is that not a weaker signal?



And yet people on this thread are suggesting that it's a good idea to run at -10dB trim, which means that the subwoofer is turned down by -10dB at the receiver, right?



Okay, great, set up your receiver and subwoofer however you want. If you want to be able to occasionally turn up the subwoofer volume on your receiver, great. In that case you will need to run with some negative trim normally. I don't see how that's better than using the knob on the back of the subwoofer but it's your equipment.



I never said anything about max gain. But it's a well-understood property of amps that, as you turn up the volume/amplification, distortion increases. You don't have to turn an amp to max in order to get distortion.

So the scenario we're talking about is that somebody is running at -10dB trim on their receiver. Okay great. They could achieve same result by setting the trim on the receiver to 0 and then turning down the subwoofer amplifier to 10% of what it was set at. (Remember that 10dB requires 10x the power.)

So you get a stronger signal from the receiver (10x the amplitude = much better resolution and signal:noise ratio) going to the subwoofer, and the subwoofer's amp only has to work 1/10th as hard, and you end up with the same effective subwoofer volume. The only practical difference is that if you want to increase the volume of the sub, you have to stand up and go turn a knob instead of press a button on your remote. I know which I would choose, is all I'm saying.
I think it would be more helpful for you to read up on these threads that I posted for the OP, as it might help you to better understand what is being discussed here. This way people aren't having to repeat themselves.

I want you to don't get the wrong idea about me here, so don't think I'm trying to be an *******. It's just a pet peave that I have when it comes to having to repeat myself, and it's apparent that you need more info about what we're discussing in regards to proper sub calibration using today's AVR's. So no offense.

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post #153 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
If you're talking about Audyssey, then yeah, you'll want to turn the subwoofer volume up in order to give Audyssey a wider range of potential subwoofer volumes to work with.

But it sounds like Audyssey does a crap job with subwoofer volume anyway, if people keep having to turn up their subwoofers after running Audyssey.

So all I'm saying is, set the subwoofer trim to 0 and adjust its volume with the knob after running Audyssey. If you were going to change the subwoofer's volume anyway, then why not.
Here's why. Let's say you run Audysey and it sets sub to -8. This is a good setting, and won't result in low voltage from the AVR, because we don't leave it at -8. We turn it up to -3, or -1, or 0. Now the sub is calibrated hot to our taste without any chance of clipping the output from the AVR, which can happen as volume goes up with sub trim set up in the positive range.

Your solution of just turning up the gain on the back of the sub is a bad idea for several reasons. First, you can't turn up the sub from the MLP to hear what you are doing, so you are turning it up blindly. Whereas from your couch, when calibrated to -8 or whatever, you can turn it up and listen to it as you do so. More practical. More importantly, this allows you to turn up the sub a KNOWN amount in dB. When you just turn the gain knob some random amount, did you just turn the sub up 3 dB, 5 dB, 10 dB, 20? Plenty of folks either with poor responses or who are used to super boom car audio who have done this and ran into problems.

So calibrating the sub far into the negative range on the AVR lets you run the sub quite hot without going above 0, which will reduce or eliminate the chance of clipping the output signal from the AVR and allows the user to turn the sub up a known, exact amount. And the end result is that the sub trim will be close to zero anyways, so its NOT a very low level noisy signal.
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post #154 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
ideally it should be -5 not -10, the -5 is recommended even by SVS so that is never has the chance of running over 0.0 and only uses power from the sub amp and NEVER the avr power to push it.

like if i have my sub trim set to 0.0 and i also have DEQ enabled (like i do) where it will sent a small bass boost when i’m not running my MV at a ref level of 0.0 that’s what you technically don’t want cuz at that point it steels power from the av.
your better off running -5 and if it needs to take a little it will take it from the extra amp power and not the avr.

i also read if your at 0.0 trim and certain songs or movies are recorded differently it can use more then just the amp and also take from the avr and push u over into the positives. ...
No worries about the AVR powering the sub, it's just sending a signal to the sub. The sub uses wall power to create a new (bigger) signal based on the input signal; at no point is the AVR sending any meaningful amount of power to the sub.

The concern with positive trim levels is clipping:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio)

So you don't want positive trim levels because let's say you have a source signal where some of the peaks in the signal are already as big (loud) as possible. The AVR can't make those peaks any louder, by definition. So the peaks get chopped off in a way that can damage amps and speakers.

If you have trim set to 0 then you shouldn't be able to clip, or at least that seems like the definition of what trim is supposed to mean.

Setting trim to -5 and adjusting the sub's volume to whatever you want seems like a good middle ground. -10 seems like too much to me. Decibels are exponential so there's actually a huge difference between -10 and -5.
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post #155 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Here's why. Let's say you run Audysey and it sets sub to -8. This is a good setting, and won't result in low voltage from the AVR, because we don't leave it at -8. We turn it up to -3, or -1, or 0. Now the sub is calibrated hot to our taste without any chance of clipping the output from the AVR, which can happen as volume goes up with sub trim set up in the positive range.
I'm confused. It sounds like you're disagreeing with me but you're literally repeating exactly what I wrote: turn up the sub volume, run Audyssey, presumably it gives you some negative trim value. Set the trim to zero, turn down the sub volume to taste. We're saying exactly the same thing.
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post #156 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:38 PM
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I think it would be more helpful for you to read up on these threads that I posted for the OP, as it might help you to better understand what is being discussed here. This way people aren't having to repeat themselves.

I want you to don't get the wrong idea about me here, so don't think I'm trying to be an *******. It's just a pet peave that I have when it comes to having to repeat myself, and it's apparent that you need more info about what we're discussing in regards to proper sub calibration using today's AVR's. So no offense.
No offense taken. Actually I just read that link on subwoofer calibration and nothing in the article disagrees with anything I've been saying. Basically the article says that the only reason to run with negative trim (instead of 0) is so that you can easily adjust the subwoofer volume via your receiver's remote control, which the author of the article seems to think is more convenient.

So actually I'm going into a bit more depth than the article, because there are actual technical reasons why it's undesirable to run with a lot of negative trim (like -10dB) which the author doesn't go into.
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post #157 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:49 PM
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Guys - there is another source of volume: the correction curve
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post #158 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
No offense taken. Actually I just read that link on subwoofer calibration and nothing in the article disagrees with anything I've been saying. Basically the article says that the only reason to run with negative trim (instead of 0) is so that you can easily adjust the subwoofer volume via your receiver's remote control, which the author of the article seems to think is more convenient.

So actually I'm going into a bit more depth than the article, because there are actual technical reasons why it's undesirable to run with a lot of negative trim (like -10dB) which the author doesn't go into.
But it has been stated that regardless of it being -10 or 0, it's still the same output from the sub, and with having it at -10db post calibration, it gives you the headroom to run it 3-5db hot using the trim level...which most people do.

...and i just repeated myself.

All kidding aside, the methods that I'm referring to are what has been recommended on these forums long before I joined, so apparently they're pretty solid. If they didn't work for myself and all of the other members that have had success with them, I wouldn't be passing along the information to newbies that join us here on AVS.

The single most important thing about this site that keeps me coming back is the vast amounts of knowledge that can be had from either reading, or from some great people that are more than willing to take time out of their day to help us out. It really is a great community.
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post #159 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
If you're talking about Audyssey, then yeah, you'll want to turn the subwoofer volume up in order to give Audyssey a wider range of potential subwoofer volumes to work with.

But it sounds like Audyssey does a crap job with subwoofer volume anyway, if people keep having to turn up their subwoofers after running Audyssey.

So all I'm saying is, set the subwoofer trim to 0 and adjust its volume with the knob after running Audyssey. If you were going to change the subwoofer's volume anyway, then why not.
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I'm confused. It sounds like you're disagreeing with me but you're literally repeating exactly what I wrote: turn up the sub volume, run Audyssey, presumably it gives you some negative trim value. Set the trim to zero, turn down the sub volume to taste. We're saying exactly the same thing.
The post I quoted didn't make it sound like thats what you were saying at all. You stated that people have to turn their subs UP after Audysey, which is true. Then you said calibrate in such a way that AVR trim comes out at 0 and adjust sub gain from there. This means you would then turn the sub UP to taste(since it will be set low).

For the sake of clarity, I'm saying it is correct to adjust subwoofer gain in such a way as to achieve an AVR subwoofer trim level of around -9 dB when running Audysey. Then, using the AVR subwoofer trim adjustment, increase the sub level to taste from the listening position. This increases subwoofer level an exact, known amount while being able to hear the incremental changes, rather than a random, unknown amount using the gain knob on the sub.
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post #160 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:05 PM
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But it has been stated that regardless of it being -10 or 0, it's still the same output from the sub, and with having it at -10db post calibration, it gives you the headroom to run it 3-5db hot using the trim level...which most people do.

...and i just repeated myself.
...
Right. Great. Like I said, run your stuff however you want. If you want the "convenience" of turning up your subwoofer volume via your receiver then that's what you'll have to do.

Just understand that your signal from the receiver to the sub will have less resolution and a worse signal:noise ratio. And the sub's amp will have to be set higher which almost certainly means more distortion. If these are trade-offs that you (and "most people") are willing to make, then fine.

Of course it's possible that none of this really makes an audible difference. You don't need a lot of resolution to accurately reproduce a bass signal, and similarly, most noise is going to be inaudible when played through a subwoofer. (Since they can't play higher frequencies.) And most higher-quality amps don't audibly distort until you get past their 80% range, so as long as you don't have your subwoofer volume turned to maximum, you probably won't notice any distortion.

But, speaking as an electrical engineer, give me the cleanest possible signal and the most possible amp headroom all day long...
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post #161 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The post I quoted didn't make it sound like thats what you were saying at all. You stated that people have to turn their subs UP after Audysey, which is true. Then you said calibrate in such a way that AVR trim comes out at 0 and adjust sub gain from there. This means you would then turn the sub UP to taste(since it will be set low).
No, here's what I wrote and what you quoted:

"set the subwoofer trim to 0 and adjust its volume with the knob after running Audyssey"

A couple sentences before that, I said to turn the subwoofer up before running Audyssey, which would result in Audyssey automatically setting the trim value to fairly large negative number, not zero.

So we are in absolute agreement about how to do this.

Quote:
For the sake of clarity, I'm saying it is correct to adjust subwoofer gain in such a way as to achieve an AVR subwoofer trim level of around -9 dB when running Audysey. Then, using the AVR subwoofer trim adjustment, increase the sub level to taste from the listening position. This increases subwoofer level an exact, known amount while being able to hear the incremental changes, rather than a random, unknown amount using the gain knob on the sub.
Right, sure, increase the trim level to zero, or some small negative number, after running Audyssey. Doesn't really matter either way. (BTW, I don't see the benefit of being able to increase the subwoofer volume by an exact, but arbitrary, numerical amount.)
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post #162 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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So we are in absolute agreement about how to do this.
Cool!
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(BTW, I don't see the benefit of being able to increase the subwoofer volume by an exact, but arbitrary, numerical amount.)
I gave two examples of why. There are plenty of cases in which inexperiences subwoofer owners have turned up their subs 15 or 20 dB hot without realizing they had done so by turning the gain knob on the sub some random, completely unknown amount after calibration.

Perhaps they have a horrible response with a huge suckout..so they crank up the gain knob +20 dB to try and compensate....well, that isn't going to end well.

Or, they are used to super boomy over the top car audio bass and crank their sub up 20 db with the gain knob without realizing it...also isn't going to end well.

IMO, its not a good idea for the average person to turn up their subwoofer with the sub amp gain a completely unknown amount. Using the AVR sub trim is a much safer idea.
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post #163 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:25 PM
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... I gave two examples of why. There are plenty of cases in which inexperiences subwoofer owners have turned up their subs 15 or 20 dB hot without realizing they had done so by turning the gain knob on the sub some random, completely unknown amount after calibration.

Perhaps they have a horrible response with a huge suckout..so they crank up the gain knob +20 dB to try and compensate....well, that isn't going to end well.

Or, they are used to super boomy over the top car audio bass and crank their sub up 20 db with the gain knob without realizing it...also isn't going to end well. ...
Why not? Surely any subwoofer of even just mediocre quality will be designed in such a way that you can turn the volume up as high as you want and you won't damage it? So who cares if some people are turning their knobs to positions that won't/don't sound good? They aren't going to break anything. Presumably they will eventually realize that they turned their subwoofer up too high and will turn it back down, no?
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post #164 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Why not? Surely any subwoofer of even just mediocre quality will be designed in such a way that you can turn the volume up as high as you want and you won't damage it? So who cares if some people are turning their knobs to positions that won't/don't sound good? They aren't going to break anything. Presumably they will eventually realize that they turned their subwoofer up too high and will turn it back down, no?

Ok dude, if you just want to be right no matter what, your right. I concede.
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post #165 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 05:43 PM
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Right. Great. Like I said, run your stuff however you want. If you want the "convenience" of turning up your subwoofer volume via your receiver then that's what you'll have to do.

Just understand that your signal from the receiver to the sub will have less resolution and a worse signal:noise ratio
But it doesn't work that way, because there are in fact three factors contributing to sub level in this scenario, not two:

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After calibrating to 75dB (step 1), Audyssey typically returns a negative sub value. It can be anywhere from -1 to -10 in my experience. It's rare that you end up around 0.

What hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that Audyssey is creating filters to adjust the amplitude of each frequency of your sub (step 2). Whether you end up at a volume of 0 and a weak boost to the bass portion of the curve, or -10 and a strong boost, it's all in the target curve. Either way, the total signal going to the sub is the same (step 3). That is where the difference is, not on the volume knob.
In short, you can't ignore the correction curve in this discussion.

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post #166 of 199 Old 06-14-2019, 07:12 PM
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But it doesn't work that way, because there are in fact three factors contributing to sub level in this scenario, not two:

In short, you can't ignore the correction curve in this discussion.
Sorry, didn't follow what you were saying re: volumes, weak/strong boosts, and target/correction curves.

You're saying that Audyssey might choose to boost frequencies in the subwoofer range, so you'd want to have the subwoofer trim level set negative to provide headroom for these potential boosts?

Makes sense, good point. Guess it depends on which EQ settings it picks.
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HT System advice for $1500 budget with questions

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No offense taken. Actually I just read that link on subwoofer calibration and nothing in the article disagrees with anything I've been saying. Basically the article says that the only reason to run with negative trim (instead of 0) is so that you can easily adjust the subwoofer volume via your receiver's remote control, which the author of the article seems to think is more convenient.



So actually I'm going into a bit more depth than the article, because there are actual technical reasons why it's undesirable to run with a lot of negative trim (like -10dB) which the author doesn't go into.


i’m going to re-adjust my gain to be more like -5 but i didn’t feel like doing it again the other day.
only reason i like -5 is since i plan on adjusting by the gain knob and not in the menu (not as covenant, and i made neat marking on the back on what’s what to make it preciseish)
also i use the low volume deq boost that can push the sub DB up during lower volumes and don’t want to hit positive.

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post #168 of 199 Old 06-15-2019, 09:29 AM
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i’m going to re-adjust my gain to be more like -5 but i didn’t feel like doing it again the other day.
only reason i like -5 is since i plan on adjusting by the gain knob and not in the menu (not as covenant, and i made neat marking on the back on what’s what to make it preciseish)
also i use the low volume deq boost that can push the sub DB up during lower volumes and don’t want to hit positive.
At lower volumes, you don't have anything at all to worry about. The way lower volumes are achieved is to decrease the signal to the subwoofer. So the signal has plenty of headroom to increase, depending on the various features you enable on the receiver.

Sounds like you're getting everything nicely dialed-in.

EDIT: I should also say that, while people (myself included) have talked about clipping in this thread, I don't even think that's really a thing that needs to be worried about anyway. First of all, you'd have to be running near maximum signal strength/volume for it to be an issue, and I assume you're rarely listening at maximum (if ever). And second, it's pretty simple to add some circuitry to an amplifier to protect it from clipping, and I'd be a little surprised if your subwoofer amp doesn't have this protection. And third, if your receiver is doing any signal processing at all, it would be simple for it to have some code in its software to eliminate clipping, so I'd be surprised if it doesn't have that. So basically I'm saying is that all your stuff will probably work fine no matter what you do, and there's no possibility of actually damaging anything. So might as well not really worry about it. All this talk of trim levels and clipping and amp levels makes it sound much more significant than it probably is. As long as you have things set up in a way that sounds good that's pretty much all that matters.

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post #169 of 199 Old 06-15-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
There is a correction curve that Audyssey creates, that we can't see. In the subwoofer frequencies, it is going to be inversely related to the sub trim set at the time of setup. So, if you end up with a level of -10 for the subs (set by Audyssey, not the user), I can guarantee that the sub-bass frequencies (picture a graphic EQ in your mind) are being boosted a lot more than they are if you end up with a sub trim of 0 after setup. It stands to reason that, because the system is shooting for a certain target, you will more or less get the same output to the sub either way.

Your points would normally be correct - it's just that there's that variable to consider.

If there's anyone that could provide evidence for this to nail it down, that would be great.
Okay, you lost me again. I searched the subwoofer calibration guide and it didn't say anything about a correction curve, hidden or not. I understand an equalizer curve, which I believe is not hidden.

But anyway, it doesn't make any sense that Audyssey would turn down the volume on the sub (by decreasing the trim value) and then just boost the subwoofer frequencies by the same amount to achieve the same volume.

I'm sorry this thread has gone off into the weeds due to a casual comment I made about 100 posts ago. The only point I wanted to make is that, from an engineering standpoint, in general, it's better to boost an input signal and turn down the amplification instead of vice-versa. In this particular case that means running with no subwoofer trim (or a small negative value, like -5) and controlling the subwoofer volume with the knob on the device. But obviously people can do whatever they want with their own setups and as long as it sounds good to them, that's great.
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post #170 of 199 Old 06-15-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
i’m going to re-adjust my gain to be more like -5 but i didn’t feel like doing it again the other day.
only reason i like -5 is since i plan on adjusting by the gain knob and not in the menu (not as covenant, and i made neat marking on the back on what’s what to make it preciseish)
also i use the low volume deq boost that can push the sub DB up during lower volumes and don’t want to hit positive.
BTW, speaking of getting things dialed-in, you seem to be in a pretty ideal situation to just run in "direct" or "passthrough" mode (or whatever Denon calls it when the input signals are just sent to the speakers without extra processing).

Basically I don't think you need to run Audyssey, and actually anything Audyssey does is likely making your setup worse. You're sitting equidistant from all your speakers, so you shouldn't need any volume or phase corrections for individual speakers. And your speakers are known to play flat, so you shouldn't need any equalizer boosts or cuts.

As Floyd Toole pointed out in that presentation that was posted early in this thread, room correction software will give you a flat response curve on-axis at your listening position but the changes it makes can screw up off-axis response, and a lot of what we hear is off-axis, due to reflections, or when somebody isn't sitting in the listening position.

I have no doubt that Audyssey can be helpful in a lot of situations, but it seems like your situation is perfect for just not having to use it. Just something to think about/try.
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post #171 of 199 Old 06-15-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Okay, you lost me again. I searched the subwoofer calibration guide and it didn't say anything about a correction curve, hidden or not. I understand an equalizer curve, which I believe is not hidden.

But anyway, it doesn't make any sense that Audyssey would turn down the volume on the sub (by decreasing the trim value) and then just boost the subwoofer frequencies by the same amount to achieve the same volume.

I'm sorry this thread has gone off into the weeds due to a casual comment I made about 100 posts ago. The only point I wanted to make is that, from an engineering standpoint, in general, it's better to boost an input signal and turn down the amplification instead of vice-versa. In this particular case that means running with no subwoofer trim (or a small negative value, like -5) and controlling the subwoofer volume with the knob on the device. But obviously people can do whatever they want with their own setups and as long as it sounds good to them, that's great.
We prefer to use the AVR adjustment so we can easily return to the previous level and know where we are at all times. Many subs don't have detents so it leaves getting an exact level up to guesswork. I know if I went up by 5, I can reduce by 5. I can also write down or screen shot what the values were before making changes.

We can probably synthesize the discussion here to say that if you have to boost your sub trim into positive values, re-run Audyssey until you get a greater negative number (turn your sub level knob up a bit). That has actually been the recommendation for years. The only difference is, you're saying to try to end up closer to zero rather than leaving it at -6 and using the knob. That makes sense.

But then I need to clarify what I was trying to say about the equalization, now that I've had a night's rest. There's the Dynamic aspect of Audyssey. Dynamic EQ means as volume levels increase, it will flatten out the curve. When volume levels drop, the applied curve will resemble more of a smiley face (more low and high frequency boost). That is to compensate for the nonlinear aspect of human hearing at different frequencies. This is innovative and I wish it appeared in Dirac. It's sorely needed. Anyway, the recommendation to stay further from a 0 trim may be to leave some room for the Dynamic EQ. I'm guessing here, so you would need to confirm that.

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post #172 of 199 Old 06-15-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
We prefer to use the AVR adjustment so we can easily return to the previous level and know where we are at all times. Many subs don't have detents so it leaves getting an exact level up to guesswork. I know if I went up by 5, I can reduce by 5. I can also write down or screen shot what the values were before making changes.
I see. So the idea is that you might want to try boosting the bass a bit, but want the option to easily go back to what Audyssey recommended. Makes sense.

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We can probably synthesize the discussion here to say that if you have to boost your sub trim into positive values, re-run Audyssey until you get a greater negative number (turn your sub level knob up a bit). That has actually been the recommendation for years. The only difference is, you're saying to try to end up closer to zero rather than leaving it at -6 and using the knob. That makes sense.
Closer to 0 would be better. Any number around -3ish seems pretty reasonable to me. -10 means that the signal you're sending to the subwoofer is only 1/10th as powerful as a "normal" signal, which seems pretty not-optimal to me.

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But then I need to clarify what I was trying to say about the equalization, now that I've had a night's rest. There's the Dynamic aspect of Audyssey. Dynamic EQ means as volume levels increase, it will flatten out the curve. When volume levels drop, the applied curve will resemble more of a smiley face (more low and high frequency boost). That is to compensate for the nonlinear aspect of human hearing at different frequencies. This is innovative and I wish it appeared in Dirac. It's sorely needed. Anyway, the recommendation to stay further from a 0 trim may be to leave some room for the Dynamic EQ. I'm guessing here, so you would need to confirm that.
Interesting. I know Apple does this with the HomePod. Didn't realize Audyssey was doing it too. In any case, if the boost happens at lower volumes, then that's nothing to worry about. Low-volume signals will have plenty of headroom for whatever boosts you want to apply.
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post #173 of 199 Old 06-15-2019, 06:05 PM
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It happens at all volumes, and only flattens out completely at 0 MV, to my knowledge.

Maybe it was just an example, but I don't think many are leaving their sub trim at -10. That's just the starting point, usually achieved by setting the sub(s) a couple of dB over 75, in my experience, and having Audyssey compensate. I have been known to increase that value by up to 8 points.

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post #174 of 199 Old 06-16-2019, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
At lower volumes, you don't have anything at all to worry about. The way lower volumes are achieved is to decrease the signal to the subwoofer. So the signal has plenty of headroom to increase, depending on the various features you enable on the receiver.



Sounds like you're getting everything nicely dialed-in.



EDIT: I should also say that, while people (myself included) have talked about clipping in this thread, I don't even think that's really a thing that needs to be worried about anyway. First of all, you'd have to be running near maximum signal strength/volume for it to be an issue, and I assume you're rarely listening at maximum (if ever). And second, it's pretty simple to add some circuitry to an amplifier to protect it from clipping, and I'd be a little surprised if your subwoofer amp doesn't have this protection. And third, if your receiver is doing any signal processing at all, it would be simple for it to have some code in its software to eliminate clipping, so I'd be surprised if it doesn't have that. So basically I'm saying is that all your stuff will probably work fine no matter what you do, and there's no possibility of actually damaging anything. So might as well not really worry about it. All this talk of trim levels and clipping and amp levels makes it sound much more significant than it probably is. As long as you have things set up in a way that sounds good that's pretty much all that matters.


makes perfect sense, i can’t sometimes obsess over small details.

in the sub tuning thread it literally says most of this does not really matter unless your listing to the MV at like 0.0 (70-75 depending on vol measurement scale)

either way i think i’m get it now.



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Originally Posted by motrek View Post

I'm sorry this thread has gone off into the weeds due to a casual comment I made about 100 posts ago. The only point I wanted to make is that, from an engineering standpoint, in general, it's better to boost an input signal and turn down the amplification instead of vice-versa. In this particular case that means running with no subwoofer trim (or a small negative value, like -5) and controlling the subwoofer volume with the knob on the device. But obviously people can do whatever they want with their own setups and as long as it sounds good to them, that's great.

i’d personally rather adjust it by the gain dial too by making my own marks in the back, right now my crossover on the sub is maxed to let the avr handle it and gain is like 75% up, so i’m gonna see if 70%ish is closer to -5 to -3 then i’ll set it to my desired location depending on the content.
tm tho.


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BTW, speaking of getting things dialed-in, you seem to be in a pretty ideal situation to just run in "direct" or "passthrough" mode (or whatever Denon calls it when the input signals are just sent to the speakers without extra processing).



Basically I don't think you need to run Audyssey, and actually anything Audyssey does is likely making your setup worse. You're sitting equidistant from all your speakers, so you shouldn't need any volume or phase corrections for individual speakers. And your speakers are known to play flat, so you shouldn't need any equalizer boosts or cuts.



As Floyd Toole pointed out in that presentation that was posted early in this thread, room correction software will give you a flat response curve on-axis at your listening position but the changes it makes can screw up off-axis response, and a lot of what we hear is off-axis, due to reflections, or when somebody isn't sitting in the listening position.



I have no doubt that Audyssey can be helpful in a lot of situations, but it seems like your situation is perfect for just not having to use it. Just something to think about/try.

i has direct and pure direct, but that takes away .1 (no sub) i think there is a setting for deactivating audyssey tho that’s similar just not as simple to switch to fast.
i’m gonna plug in the xbox one (best blue ray player i have right now)directly into the avr to play with movies and the 5.1 settings.
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post #175 of 199 Old 06-16-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
...
i has direct and pure direct, but that takes away .1 (no sub) i think there is a setting for deactivating audyssey tho that’s similar just not as simple to switch to fast.
i’m gonna plug in the xbox one (best blue ray player i have right now)directly into the avr to play with movies and the 5.1 settings.
Oh, okay, yeah, you definitely want that sub set to LFE+main. I haven't used Audyssey much. I thought it was just a system that set your receiver settings automatically. Maybe you can set everything back to stock somehow and leave the sub on LFE+main. Sounds like it might be a pain though. Anyway, just something to consider.
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Oh, okay, yeah, you definitely want that sub set to LFE+main. I haven't used Audyssey much. I thought it was just a system that set your receiver settings automatically. Maybe you can set everything back to stock somehow and leave the sub on LFE+main. Sounds like it might be a pain though. Anyway, just something to consider.
LFE + Main isn't recommended because you will have multiple bass sources with different capabilities and in different places in the room. Best practice is to have all bass sources be of the same capability and be summed to mono, time aligned, and equalized the same. Otherwise you will end up with muddy bass due to phase cancellations, etc.

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post #177 of 199 Old 06-16-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Oh, okay, yeah, you definitely want that sub set to LFE+main. I haven't used Audyssey much. I thought it was just a system that set your receiver settings automatically. Maybe you can set everything back to stock somehow and leave the sub on LFE+main. Sounds like it might be a pain though. Anyway, just something to consider.
Why do you refuse to listen to anything that's being explained on here to BETTER SERVE THE OP'S NEEDS? You are giving HORRIBLE advice, and even worse, the OP is listening to you for some strange reason. Is it because you claim to be an Electrical Engineer? I would hope not, simply due to the fact that being an Electrical Engineer doesn't make you an expert on room correction software, sub calibration, or how to utilize the user friendly features on today's AVR's. But, there are plenty of people on here that are indeed experts on these topics, and they are the ones that have passed along the info to us that we are trying to share with with the newbies that come on here asking for sound advice. What you're giving is not sound advice. It's not even close to be being accurate...so please just stop already.

@rbfastback , you definitely DO NOT want to set your sub to LFE+MAIN...unless you're running your speakers full range (Large), which is NOT RECOMMENDED whenever you're using a seperate sub to handle the low end. LFE+MAIN will will force your mains to output all of the lower frequencies while at the same time your sub is playing the exact same thing, and you have no control over your speakrs crossover settings. This will generally result in a muddy, audible mess. Hence the reason it's recommended to set your speakers to small, crossovers for your LCR to 80Hz, sub to LFE (120Hz default). If your surround's crossovers are set below 80Hz by Audyssey, then you can set those to 80Hz as well. Otherwise, if they're set by Audyssey to say 100-120Hz, just leave them be, as it is not recommended to lower the crossover frequencies. Only raise them from where Audyssey sets them.

Also, if you really want your setup to sound good, go over to those other threads and ask the authors of those threads for their advice.

And one other piece of advice...it's always pretty handy to investigate the people that are giving you your information. Especially whenever you have multiple people explaining to him why he's incorrect, and all he's doing is arguing and flipflopping all over the place in his answers to suite his narrative.

I say this to you only so that you can feel comfortable knowing that you got the best possible information to get the most enjoyment out of your gear. Plus, I've already looked at his prior posts the first time that I saw him giving piss poor advice...and of course, he's arguing with people that are trying to give sound advice (sound familiar?). He's even gone so far as to argue with people that were trying to HELP HIM out. Lol

So yeah, if you want to take his advice, by all means, go for it. I don't recommend that you do. But hey, what do I know? I'm not an Electrical Engineer after all.


Good luck,

Darrell
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post #178 of 199 Old 06-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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Why do you refuse to listen to anything that's being explained on here to BETTER SERVE THE OP'S NEEDS? You are giving HORRIBLE advice, and even worse, the OP is listening to you for some strange reason. Is it because you claim to be an Electrical Engineer? I would hope not, simply due to the fact that being an Electrical Engineer doesn't make you an expert on room correction software, sub calibration, or how to utilize the user friendly features on today's AVR's. But, there are plenty of people on here that are indeed experts on these topics, and they are the ones that have passed along the info to us that we are trying to share with with the newbies that come on here asking for sound advice. What you're giving is not sound advice. It's not even close to be being accurate...so please just stop already.

@rbfastback , you definitely DO NOT want to set your sub to LFE+MAIN...unless you're running your speakers full range (Large), which is NOT RECOMMENDED whenever you're using a seperate sub to handle the low end. LFE+MAIN will will force your mains to output all of the lower frequencies while at the same time your sub is playing the exact same thing, ...
It's funny that you're yelling at me about giving bad advice when you're the one who's all backwards here.

LFE+main is a subwoofer setting. It doesn't have s**t to do with what's coming out of your main speakers. It means that the subwoofer outputs the LFE channel and the bass for the other channels. Which is exactly what you're recommending except that you don't seem to know what the settings are called.

Setting your main speakers to "large" is what causes them to output the full frequency spectrum. Not the subwoofer setting, obviously.

We already sorted this all out a couple pages ago. Everybody agrees that for surround sound/home theater, it's best to set all your main speakers to small, set the subwoofer to "LFE+main", set the crossover to 80 (or whatever), and call it a day.

(EDIT: To elaborate, there is a situation when you might want to set your L/R speakers to large and set your subwoofer to LFE+main, it's if you want your mains to play as much bass as they can and then naturally roll off to the subwoofer. So you'd want the crossover set to around 40Hz. But this is probably only desirable if you're playing 2.0 content, or if all of the speakers in your setup have identical bass capability.)

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post #179 of 199 Old 06-16-2019, 03:28 PM
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LFE + Main isn't recommended because you will have multiple bass sources with different capabilities and in different places in the room. Best practice is to have all bass sources be of the same capability and be summed to mono, time aligned, and equalized the same. Otherwise you will end up with muddy bass due to phase cancellations, etc.
Nope, LFE+main does exactly what you're saying should be done. It causes the subwoofer to play the bass for all the channels. Then you set all your main speakers to small and they roll off the bass to the subwoofer.

If you just google "LFE+main" for a second you'll see that it does exactly what you're describing.

You don't want to set your subwoofer to "LFE" because then you're not going to hear any bass except what's played on the LFE channel, which is stupid, because there's lots of bass content in the other channels that you also want to hear.
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post #180 of 199 Old 06-16-2019, 04:49 PM
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It's funny that you're yelling at me about giving bad advice when you're the one who's all backwards here.

LFE+main is a subwoofer setting. It doesn't have s**t to do with what's coming out of your main speakers. It means that the subwoofer outputs the LFE channel and the bass for the other channels. Which is exactly what you're recommending except that you don't seem to know what the settings are called.

Setting your main speakers to "large" is what causes them to output the full frequency spectrum. Not the subwoofer setting, obviously.

We already sorted this all out a couple pages ago. Everybody agrees that for surround sound/home theater, it's best to set all your main speakers to small, set the subwoofer to "LFE+main", set the crossover to 80 (or whatever), and call it a day.

(EDIT: To elaborate, there is a situation when you might want to set your L/R speakers to large and set your subwoofer to LFE+main, it's if you want your mains to play as much bass as they can and then naturally roll off to the subwoofer. So you'd want the crossover set to around 40Hz. But this is probably only desirable if you're playing 2.0 content, or if all of the speakers in your setup have identical bass capability.)
I stand corrected, as I did use the wrong term to point out in regards to the mains what will happen by using those settings, so thanks for correcting. But it's still a bad idea, and NOT recommended for HT applications by pretty much everyone but YOU. The fact that you aren't able to see this is baffling.

As for when he wants to listen to music, he can set it to "Stereo", which will output to LR/Sub, or "Pure Direct", which will output to just the LR at full range. This is all being done with the speakers set to small with a 80Hz x-over, and sub set to LFE. But I'm sure you will argue that too, so you have fun with that.


Again, to the OP...good luck. I hope you're able to get to where you want to be with your setup.

Darrell

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