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post #181 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
I stand corrected, as I did use the wrong term to point out in regards to the mains what will happen by using those settings, so thanks for correcting. But it's still a bad idea, and NOT recommended for HT applications by pretty much everyone but YOU. The fact that you aren't able to see this is baffling.
Wait, what's a bad idea? Using LFE+Main? You think people should just use LFE? In other words, you think the only thing that should come out of a subwoofer is the LFE channel, i.e., some explosions when you're watching movies? You should never use a subwoofer for e.g. listening to music? That's insane. Nobody recommends that.

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As for when he wants to listen to music, he can set it to "Stereo", which will output to LR/Sub, or "Pure Direct", which will output to just the LR at full range. This is all being done with the speakers set to small with a 80Hz x-over, and sub set to LFE. But I'm sure you will argue that too, so you have fun with that.
Nobody should have to set anything to anything special to listen to music. I'm not sure what you're suggesting or implying here.
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post #182 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
I stand corrected, as I did use the wrong term to point out in regards to the mains what will happen by using those settings, so thanks for correcting. But it's still a bad idea, and NOT recommended for HT applications by pretty much everyone but YOU. The fact that you aren't able to see this is baffling.

As for when he wants to listen to music, he can set it to "Stereo", which will output to LR/Sub, or "Pure Direct", which will output to just the LR at full range. This is all being done with the speakers set to small with a 80Hz x-over, and sub set to LFE. But I'm sure you will argue that too, so you have fun with that.


Again, to the OP...good luck. I hope you're able to get to where you want to be with your setup.

Darrell
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Wait, what's a bad idea? Using LFE+Main? You think people should just use LFE? In other words, you think the only thing that should come out of a subwoofer is the LFE channel, i.e., some explosions when you're watching movies? You should never use a subwoofer for e.g. listening to music? That's insane. Nobody recommends that.
You really should actually read the posts before you speak. It's really making you look even more ignorant than you really are when it comes to these applications.

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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Nobody should have to set anything to anything special to listen to music. I'm not sure what you're suggesting or implying here.
Again...READ! It's not that hard to figure out.

There are these cool things on today's AVR's called "FEATURES" that you can use to do all kinds of crazy things. Like playing movies/music using different sound modes. Gee! What an awesome 21st century concept! Can't wait to here your BS take on that. Although, I'm sure it'll be the same old rhetoric that you used to argue using the AVR's HDMI ports to hook up all of your equipment to, because for whatever reason you say that's stupid (paraphrasing), and insisted on recommending to hook the components to the TV instead (Don't play dumb, because you know exactly what I'm talking about.). Why?? What the hell is wrong with streamlining things? You know, kinda like using the "Channel Level Settings" to tweak sub trim with the remote...??? AGAIN...WHAT AN AWESOME CONCEPT!!!

It's really unfortunate that common sense cannot be taught. I'm done here.

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post #183 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
you definitely DO NOT want to set your sub to LFE+MAIN...unless you're running your speakers full range (Large), which is NOT RECOMMENDED whenever you're using a seperate sub to handle the low end. LFE+MAIN will will force your mains to output all of the lower frequencies while at the same time your sub is playing the exact same thing, and you have no control over your speakrs crossover settings. This will generally result in a muddy, audible mess. Hence the reason it's recommended to set your speakers to small, crossovers for your LCR to 80Hz, sub to LFE (120Hz default). If your surround's crossovers are set below 80Hz by Audyssey, then you can set those to 80Hz as well. Otherwise, if they're set by Audyssey to say 100-120Hz, just leave them be, as it is not recommended to lower the crossover frequencies. Only raise them from where Audyssey sets them.
i’m still learning and i see a lot of AVR’s can be different when it comes to the technical settings cuz i do know that for my denon that would not work the way your saying to do it.
your end goal is exactly right tho but for my avr the biggest difference is the speakers being set to small or large.

right now it’s setup LFE+MAIN with the towers set to SMALL with an 80Hz crossover (and yes a 120Hz default on the LFE+main setting)

i think in the past or other brand avr’s do this differently from what i’m reading.
for my model denon the sub WILL NOT work on just LFE alone.

this is so all the LFE plus the bass signals that are sent to the MAIN TOWERS will go to the sub that are under 80hz. freeing the towers to play with more power above the 80hz range.
if i were to change it to LARGE then the sub would still play all the LFE+MAIN stuff just like in the other scenario except he speakers would not have the crossover anymore and they would also play the same low frequency bass and like u say it would sound bad and muddy.

obviously i’ve learned it’s not a hard cut off with the 80Hz crossover but more of a gradual signal weakening or whatever u call it.

lastly i actually upped what audyssey set my crossover and setting since it was still muddy and too low of a cross to me.
it came back like 40hz for the center and mains were set to LARGE, so i had no cross for the towers.
basically the opposite of what i want and what u are saying is bad (for obvious reasons)

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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post

And one other piece of advice...it's always pretty handy to investigate the people that are giving you your information.


I say this to you only so that you can feel comfortable knowing that you got the best possible information to get the most enjoyment out of your gear.



So yeah, if you want to take his advice, by all means, go for it. I don't recommend that you do. But hey, what do I know? I'm not an Electrical Engineer after all.


i absolutely agree with most of this, i ALWAYS research what anyone tells me no matter how popular they are on the forum and i hope ppl do that for me on he forum i’m more knowledgeable.

anyone can be wrong just like u inadvertently were about deferent avr settings even tho the end result is exactly the same what should be done.

i always appreciate anyone’s post, wrong or right they took the time to give it to a random person like me.
it’s my job to pick through it and decided what parts i want to take out of it as good advice.
(most of the time ppl are arguing they are actually talking about the same thing and not understanding each other since they read so fast or skip over info)
most ppl admit they were wrong, or they just keep arguing...

motrek has been very helpful along the way and yes a few ppl including him and you have misspoken about a few small things here or there but who hasn’t in one post or another.

i will say out of all my hobbies this one leaves the most room to make mistakes or have a wrong setting easily, there is a lot about audio/visual to learn and no end to how much
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post #184 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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HT System advice for $1500 budget with questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
I stand corrected, as I did use the wrong term to point out in regards to the mains what will happen by using those settings, so thanks for correcting. But it's still a bad idea, and NOT recommended for HT applications by pretty much everyone but YOU. The fact that you aren't able to see this is baffling.



As for when he wants to listen to music, he can set it to "Stereo", which will output to LR/Sub, or "Pure Direct", which will output to just the LR at full range. This is all being done with the speakers set to small with a 80Hz x-over, and sub set to LFE. But I'm sure you will argue that too, so you have fun with that.





Again, to the OP...good luck. I hope you're able to get to where you want to be with your setup.



Darrell


i’ve tried only LFE before and it turns iff the sub making it a 2.0/5.0

ppl are saying for my avr lfe only will not work if u want the sub

i called customer support too an looked up videos on the subject.

if u know another setting that will work if appreciate it and i’ll go try it right now.

edit for bad spelling

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post #185 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
i’m still learning and i see a lot of AVR’s can be different when it comes to the technical settings cuz i do know that for my denon that would not work the way your saying to do it.
your end goal is exactly right tho but for my avr the biggest difference is the speakers being set to small or large.

right now it’s setup LFE+MAIN with the towers set to SMALL with an 80Hz crossover (and yes a 120Hz default on the LFE+main setting)

i think in the past or other brand avr’s do this differently from what i’m reading.
for my model denon the sub WILL NOT work on just LFE alone.

this is so all the LFE plus the bass signals that are sent to the MAIN TOWERS will go to the sub that are under 80hz. freeing the towers to play with more power above the 80hz range.
if i were to change it to LARGE then the sub would still play all the LFE+MAIN stuff just like in the other scenario except he speakers would not have the crossover anymore and they would also play the same low frequency bass and like u say it would sound bad and muddy.

obviously i’ve learned it’s not a hard cut off with the 80Hz crossover but more of a gradual signal weakening or whatever u call it.

lastly i actually upped what audyssey set my crossover and setting since it was still muddy and too low of a cross to me.
it came back like 40hz for the center and mains were set to LARGE, so i had no cross for the towers.
basically the opposite of what i want and what u are saying is bad (for obvious reasons)





i absolutely agree with most of this, i ALWAYS research what anyone tells me no matter how popular they are on the forum and i hope ppl do that for me on he forum i’m more knowledgeable.

anyone can be wrong just like u inadvertently were about deferent avr settings even tho the end result is exactly the same what should be done.

i always appreciate anyone’s post, wrong or right they took the time to give it to a random person like me.
it’s my job to pick through it and decided what parts i want to take out of it as good advice.
(most of the time ppl are arguing they are actually talking about the same thing and not understanding each other since they read so fast or skip over info)
most ppl admit they were wrong, or they just keep arguing...

motrek has been very helpful along the way and yes a few ppl including him and you have misspoken about a few small things here or there but who hasn’t in one post or another.

i will say out of all my hobbies this one leaves the most room to make mistakes or have a wrong setting easily, there is a lot about audio/visual to learn and no end to how much
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Originally Posted by rbfastback View Post
i’ve tried only LFE before and it turns iff the sub making it a 2.0/5.0

ppl are saying for my avr lfe only will not work if u want the sub

i called customer support too an looked up videos on the subject.

if u know another setting that will work if appreciate it and i’ll go try it right now.

edit for bad spelling
Not sure why you're not getting anything through your sub with setting on LFE, as that's what I have mine set to and it works just fine. Albeit, it's only running whenever it's called upon...which is what it's supposed to do with this setting. I have a Denon AVR as well.

Also, I've actually implemented the "Cascading Crossovers" method to mine. Meaning that I have my LCR/Sub all running @80Hz. This is done by not only setting the LCR to 80Hz, but also changing the LPF on the AVR & my sub's DSP settings to 80Hz as well. This gives me more mid-bass from the sub, and better clarity through the center channel & mains. This method was was recommended by the author of the sub calibration thread. I would get the LFE thing figured out before trying something like this though.

As for my error in terminology in the previous post, I just made the mistake of saying that it was "LFE+MAIN" rather than saying "Large" that will force the mains to play full bandwith. That's definitely on me for not proofing my post, but I was a tad bit flustered with his ignorance though...which is also on me for allowing that to happen. Oops! But the principal still stands that by setting it to LFE+MAIN it will still send frequencies that can/will muddy it up and create unecessary issues. Hence it not being recommended.

Here is an explanation of how all the LFE/LFE+MAIN functions work on Denon/Marantz AVR's to help clear up any/all confusion on the subject:

Denon/Marantz Subwoofer Bass Setting sends signal to sub like this,

LFE: LFE channel + Speaker channel signal below crossover for those set to Small
LFE+Mains: LFE channel + Speaker channel signal below crossover for those set to Small + Front L and R channel signal below LPF of LFE

If a speaker is set to Small and bass setting is LFE, anything below crossover is sent to sub. LPF of LFE makes no difference.

If L and R speaker is set to Small and bass setting is LFE+Mains, L, R signal above crossover but below LPF of LFE are duplicated to sub. This configuration is not recommended since most likely there will be a peak or null in the crossover to LPF of LFE frequency band.

If a speaker is set to Large, that speaker will get full range signal. If bass setting is LFE, the sub will not get any signal associated to the speaker channel. If the setting is LFE+Mains, the speaker will continue to get full range signal and at the same time L and R channel signal below LPF of LFE will additionally play on the sub.


Hope this helps,

Darrell

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post #186 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure why you're not getting anything through your sub with setting on LFE, as that's what I have mine set to and it works just fine. Albeit, it's only running whenever it's called upon...which is what it's supposed to do with this setting. I have a Denon AVR as well.
i’ll look more into this tm for sure, seems other have had this problem too.
maybe it’s a year model change?


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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post

Also, I've actually implemented the "Cascading Crossovers" method to mine. Meaning that I have my LCR/Sub all running @80Hz. This is done by not only setting the LCR to 80Hz, but also changing the LPF on the AVR & my sub's DSP settings to 80Hz as well. This gives me more mid-bass from the sub, and better clarity through the center channel & mains. This method was was recommended by the author of the sub calibration thread. I would get the LFE thing figured out before trying something like this though.


that makes perfect sense since now u don’t have the range in between the 80hz and 120hz anymore

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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post

Here is an explanation of how all the LFE/LFE+MAIN functions work on Denon/Marantz AVR's to help clear up any/all confusion on the subject:



Denon/Marantz Subwoofer Bass Setting sends signal to sub like this,



LFE: LFE channel + Speaker channel signal below crossover for those set to Small

LFE+Mains: LFE channel + Speaker channel signal below crossover for those set to Small + Front L and R channel signal below LPF of LFE



If a speaker is set to Small and bass setting is LFE, anything below crossover is sent to sub. LPF of LFE makes no difference.



If L and R speaker is set to Small and bass setting is LFE+Mains, L, R signal above crossover but below LPF of LFE are duplicated to sub. This configuration is not recommended since most likely there will be a peak or null in the crossover to LPF of LFE frequency band.



If a speaker is set to Large, that speaker will get full range signal. If bass setting is LFE, the sub will not get any signal associated to the speaker channel. If the setting is LFE+Mains, the speaker will continue to get full range signal and at the same time L and R channel signal below LPF of LFE will additionally play on the sub.

so basically what you are saying for me right now is that above 80Hz and below 120Hz the bass signal is being duplicated (sub and L,R)

wile not as noticeable as the worst setting of: LFE+MAIN along with LARGE and the SUB it still can be more clear and less muddy loosing a little bass between 80-120 in the main L and R towers?
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post #187 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 08:58 PM
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Nope, LFE+main does exactly what you're saying should be done. It causes the subwoofer to play the bass for all the channels. Then you set all your main speakers to small and they roll off the bass to the subwoofer.

If you just google "LFE+main" for a second you'll see that it does exactly what you're describing.

You don't want to set your subwoofer to "LFE" because then you're not going to hear any bass except what's played on the LFE channel, which is stupid, because there's lots of bass content in the other channels that you also want to hear.
I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to describe, and what you are stating will happen with LFE only in fact will not happen that way.

It is the setting of "Small" for your speakers that sends all bass frequencies below your crossover point to the subwoofer. This is also known as bass management.

LFE means only the subwoofer will be used to play those frequencies. That is how it should be.

LFE + Main has your mains playing that content as well, also known as "double bass". You do not want that for all of the reasons discussed in this thread, so no need to repeat.

If you are using subwoofers, the correct settings are to set all speakers to small, and when the choice is between LFE or LFE + Main, choose LFE.
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post #188 of 215 Old 06-16-2019, 09:01 PM
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Wait, what's a bad idea? Using LFE+Main? You think people should just use LFE? In other words, you think the only thing that should come out of a subwoofer is the LFE channel, i.e., some explosions when you're watching movies? You should never use a subwoofer for e.g. listening to music? That's insane. Nobody recommends that.
What is more likely:

• Everyone using the LFE only setting is insane and missing lots of bass, or
• Your understanding of this is incorrect

?

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post #189 of 215 Old 06-17-2019, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
You really should actually read the posts before you speak. It's really making you look even more ignorant than you really are when it comes to these applications.
I see, you're recommending different settings for HT and music.

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There are these cool things on today's AVR's called "FEATURES" that you can use to do all kinds of crazy things. Like playing movies/music using different sound modes. Gee! What an awesome 21st century concept! Can't wait to here your BS take on that.
Correct, I don't know why you would play movies and music using different settings. Movies have a ton of music in them (ever heard of soundtracks?), and music often has sound effects (and sometimes spoken-word content) just like movies. If your audio settings are good for one and not the other, then that means you're spending a lot of time listening to sub-optimal audio. Common sense says this is bad... but I guess you think it's good for some reason?

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Although, I'm sure it'll be the same old rhetoric that you used to argue using the AVR's HDMI ports to hook up all of your equipment to, because for whatever reason you say that's stupid (paraphrasing), and insisted on recommending to hook the components to the TV instead (Don't play dumb, because you know exactly what I'm talking about.). Why?? What the hell is wrong with streamlining things?
Nope, I never actually recommended plugging things into the TV over plugging them into the receiver. I just said you can do either one and it's fine. A couple people (maybe you?) told me I was wrong and that you wouldn't be able to get surround sound if you plugged your HDMI sources into the TV, but it turns out I was right and I posted links to prove that I was right. If you really want to re-hash how I was right and other people were wrong, I mean, go ahead, I guess?

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You know, kinda like using the "Channel Level Settings" to tweak sub trim with the remote...??? AGAIN...WHAT AN AWESOME CONCEPT!!!
Right, I already explained how, from a technical/engineering standpoint, it's better to have a stronger signal going to a device and decrease the amount of amplification necessary. What about this do you disagree with? And we all agreed that running with a subwoofer trim of around -5 is a good middle ground between signal strength, amplifier power, and ability to adjust things via the receiver. It seems like you're the only person who's still hung up about this?

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It's really unfortunate that common sense cannot be taught. I'm done here.
One can only hope.
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post #190 of 215 Old 06-17-2019, 03:05 AM
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What is more likely:

• Everyone using the LFE only setting is insane and missing lots of bass, or
• Your understanding of this is incorrect

?
Well I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a Denon receiver and that I have no experience with Denon receivers. What I've been going off of is the Denon web page about what these settings mean:

https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answe.../~/lfe---modes

So in other words, the "LFE" setting only sends the LFE content to the subwoofer. Which makes sense because it's called LFE. If you're not clear on this, LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_effects

Basically it's the ".1" channel in "5.1" surround sound. It's generally used for exactly what it sounds like, i.e., effects, like explosions, lightning, spaceship sounds, etc. If you haven't listen to an LFE track in a movie, it's pretty interesting and I recommend it. What it generally doesn't include is the bass content from stuff like the movie soundtrack.

So if you've set up your system to only send the LFE channel to the subwoofer, and you've set your main speakers to small, then yeah, actually, you are missing out on the bass that's encoded in the other channels. As somebody pointed out earlier in this thread, a crossover is not a brick wall, and you will still hear deep bass frequencies out of your main speakers, but these frequencies will be much quieter than intended.

And it also means that if you're playing content that doesn't have an LFE channel (including a lot of TV shows and basically all music) then you will hear literally nothing out of your subwoofer. At least that's what's implied by the Denon web page that I linked to, and also by rbfastback's personal experience, since he posted about not hearing anything out of the subwoofer when it's set to LFE, which should be a fairly common occurrence.

So yeah, setting the subwoofer to LFE+main is really what you want, unless this Denon web page is grossly mistaken.
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post #191 of 215 Old 06-17-2019, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
What is more likely:

• Everyone using the LFE only setting is insane and missing lots of bass, or
• Your understanding of this is incorrect

?
Well I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a Denon receiver and that I have no experience with Denon receivers. What I've been going off of is the Denon web page about what these settings mean:

https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answe.../~/lfe---modes

So in other words, the "LFE" setting only sends the LFE content to the subwoofer. Which makes sense because it's called LFE. If you're not clear on this, LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_effects

Basically it's the ".1" channel in "5.1" surround sound. It's generally used for exactly what it sounds like, i.e., effects, like explosions, lightning, spaceship sounds, etc. If you haven't listen to an LFE track in a movie, it's pretty interesting and I recommend it. What it generally doesn't include is the bass content from stuff like the movie soundtrack.

So if you've set up your system to only send the LFE channel to the subwoofer, and you've set your main speakers to small, then yeah, actually, you are missing out on the bass that's encoded in the other channels. As somebody pointed out earlier in this thread, a crossover is not a brick wall, and you will still hear deep bass frequencies out of your main speakers, but these frequencies will be much quieter than intended.

And it also means that if you're playing content that doesn't have an LFE channel (including a lot of TV shows and basically all music) then you will hear literally nothing out of your subwoofer. At least that's what's implied by the Denon web page that I linked to, and also by rbfastback's personal experience, since he posted about not hearing anything out of the subwoofer when it's set to LFE, which should be a fairly common occurrence.

So yeah, setting the subwoofer to LFE+main is really what you want, unless this Denon web page is grossly mistaken.
I'm saying that is wrong. You do not want your mains playing LFE content, and you do not miss any bass signals with this setting. LFE + Main is not the default setting and is not used by anyone with a serious setup that has done their research.

Bass is sent to the sub channel(s) via bass management regardless of the above setting. The "main" part duplicates the signal at the mains, playing LFE content from them. If you read your link it explains that. It also states that the limitation you noted only applies if speakers are set to large. We are talking about using a subwoofer with bass management, aka "small".

I have 10 years experience with modern AVRs, including most of that time with Denons.
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post #192 of 215 Old 06-17-2019, 10:22 AM
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I'm saying that is wrong. You do not want your mains playing LFE content, and you do not miss any bass signals with this setting. LFE + Main is not the default setting and is not used by anyone with a serious setup that has done their research.

Bass is sent to the sub channel(s) via bass management regardless of the above setting. The "main" part duplicates the signal at the mains, playing LFE content from them. If you read your link it explains that. It also states that the limitation you noted only applies if speakers are set to large. We are talking about using a subwoofer with bass management, aka "small".

I have 10 years experience with modern AVRs, including most of that time with Denons.
Well I have to admit that I basically ignored the text at the top of the link that I posted and went straight to the definitions of the settings at the bottom. I will agree that you're right about the LFE setting, i.e., when the subwoofer is set to LFE then it will also (confusingly) output the lower frequencies from the channels that are set to small. So I was wrong about that, sorry.

I do think you're mistaken about what LFE+main means though. Just to be sure I checked the actual manual for a Denon receiver:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...nT-xAquqklDzN7

If you go to page 91 of the manual, it explains things pretty clearly. More clearly than the web page that I linked to. LFE+main is actually the default and it means "The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer." In other words, the subwoofer will play low-range content from the "large" channels in addition to the "small" channels. It does not affect the output of any of the main speakers.

So I agree, I can't think of a situation where anybody might want to use the LFE+main setting since it would cause the subwoofer to output the low frequency content that the "large" speakers are already outputting. I don't know why this setting would be the default. But the setting also literally doesn't make any difference to the OP since he said all his speakers are set to small anyway.

So that means if the OP is not hearing much from the subwoofer, maybe he accidentally set some of his mains to large instead of small? Something to check.

And going back to my original post that started all this mess, what I was trying to convey (instead of the name of a specific setting) is that the OP could try running his system with minimal audio processing on the receiver's part, as long as it was still doing bass management. I apparently don't know the names of the Denon settings and modes to accomplish this though.
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post #193 of 215 Old 06-17-2019, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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HT System advice for $1500 budget with questions

anyway so i factory reset my denon and started from scratch.

now the LFE works as everyone says it should.

again with speakers set to small and the X-over at 80Hz
trim on the sub is reading -5 now

not sure if i can tell a difference but i’m more then happy to leave it on what everyone says is the proper setting.

very excited about watching the Disney channel all day with my LFE setting right now haha

thanks for all the help everyone!

My next project is to figure out proper placement of the RS152 surround speakers (height on back wall and distance to left an right behind me)

i already ran the wire in the attic for them just gotta drill through now once i get the templates in place for the speakers

edit: also i ordered the AC Infinity AIRCOM T10 fan for the avr so that’s cool too
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post #194 of 215 Old 06-17-2019, 11:10 AM
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anyway so i factory reset my denon and started from scratch.

now the LFE works as everyone says it should.
Yeah after all this discussion it sounds like you might have had some of your speakers set to large somehow. Glad it's all sorted now.

Quote:
My next project is to figure out proper placement of the RS152 surround speakers (height on back wall and distance to left an right behind me)

i already ran the wire in the attic for them just gotta drill through now once i get the templates in place for the speakers
Placement of surround speakers is probably the hardest part of any of this. If you look at the manuals, you're supposed to have those speakers almost straight out to the left and right of your listening position(s), some distance away, and with the tweeters at ear-level. I don't know a single person who has been able to achieve this recommended setup in a real-world living room. Hopefully you can get close. I wish you good luck!

EDIT: Giving this some thought after a few hours, I'd say the top priority for surround placement is to get them a significant distance away from all possible listening positions. It sucks when you go over to somebody's house and you have to sit right next to one of the surround speakers blasting in your ear the whole time. (Remember that sound gets exponentially louder the closer you sit to a speaker.) After that, my instinct is to avoid putting them close to the ceiling, which is basically the same thing as putting them in a corner. Some people put their surround speakers close to the ceiling so they're out of the way and draw less attention, but corner-loading speakers is almost always undesirable (unless you're talking about subwoofers). If you can get them even just 2 feet away from the ceiling, it should sound better.

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post #195 of 215 Old 07-18-2019, 03:48 PM
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...
My next project is to figure out proper placement of the RS152 surround speakers (height on back wall and distance to left an right behind me)
...
Just curious, what did you end up doing for these?

Also, how are you liking the setup now that you've had some time to get used to it?
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post #196 of 215 Old 07-18-2019, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Just curious, what did you end up doing for these?



Also, how are you liking the setup now that you've had some time to get used to it?


what’s up, sorry been on the forum every day but been silent.

speakers sound even better after a nice break in, or it could just me me getting comfortable with them too..

thought i was having BAD subwoofer chuffing due to being inexpensive or insufficient for my size of room but it ended up just being that the damn drywall didn’t have enough screws in it and it was rattling on the 2x4’s hahaha

that’s a good problem that i happily fixed.

also some great news is i got rid of ALL the kids stuff so i movers the sub to the right corner and it sounds WAY better and more powerful from the MLP or anywhere for that matter.

for now i’m very happy with everything but i do still want to upgrade to at minimum the SVS PC2000 or ideally the PB3000

——-
and on the the surrounds, i have everything ready with wiring and all but haven’t got around to mounting them.

i’m going to put them on the back wall out to the sides at about 120 degrees off axis like most ppl recommend.
only down side to that is the back right one will be a little closer and in a corner up against a wall and ceiling but i don’t have other options right now.
this is the room again.
i marked in red where they will go
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post #197 of 215 Old 07-18-2019, 04:29 PM
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... i’m going to put them on the back wall out to the sides at about 120 degrees off axis like most ppl recommend.
only down side to that is the back right one will be a little closer and in a corner up against a wall and ceiling but i don’t have other options right now.
this is the room again.
i marked in red where they will go
...
Nice, glad you're enjoying your system! I like how far away you'll be able to put the surrounds from the seating.
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post #198 of 215 Old 07-18-2019, 07:05 PM
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Yeah after all this discussion it sounds like you might have had some of your speakers set to large somehow. Glad it's all sorted now.



Placement of surround speakers is probably the hardest part of any of this. If you look at the manuals, you're supposed to have those speakers almost straight out to the left and right of your listening position(s), some distance away, and with the tweeters at ear-level. I don't know a single person who has been able to achieve this recommended setup in a real-world living room. Hopefully you can get close. I wish you good luck!

EDIT: Giving this some thought after a few hours, I'd say the top priority for surround placement is to get them a significant distance away from all possible listening positions. It sucks when you go over to somebody's house and you have to sit right next to one of the surround speakers blasting in your ear the whole time.
Yup, small room here - that's why I prefer Bipoles. I do get them in the recommended locations, and they don't fire right into my ears.

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post #199 of 215 Old 07-19-2019, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup, small room here - that's why I prefer Bipoles. I do get them in the recommended locations, and they don't fire right into my ears.


i know these aren’t bipoles or dipoles so what would they be called?
maybe just HST like infinity says?

seems like they are similar in design with a single rear firing speaker and 2 45 deg angled front firing tweeters.

i would think the same qualities and location placement would be similar.
i’m told it’s not as big a deal to have a perfect location with these since it’s designed to not have direct sound from an exact location but more of a random bouncing off walls/non directional filling sound?
sorry my audio terminology sucks.


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i know these aren’t bipoles or dipoles so what would they be called?
maybe just HST like infinity says?

seems like they are similar in design with a single rear firing speaker and 2 45 deg angled front firing tweeters.

i would think the same qualities and location placement would be similar.
i’m told it’s not as big a deal to have a perfect location with these since it’s designed to not have direct sound from an exact location but more of a random bouncing off walls/non directional filling sound?
sorry my audio terminology sucks. ...
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...pole-vs-bipole

I guess the difference between bipole and dipole isn't to do with the directions of the drivers, but whether or not they're in-phase. So who knows what the Infinitys are. But this article says the reason to run the drivers out of phase would be to avoid bass cancellation... since only the tweeters are pointing in different directions with these speakers, I suspect they're in-phase and thus bipoles.

I'd be curious to know what the crossover frequency is for these speakers. It seems like it would be tricky to get sound from the mid-woofer to integrate correctly.
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post #201 of 215 Old 07-20-2019, 03:18 PM
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When he posted that last night, I wondered, "why didn't I know about these before?". I've been searching for ideal surrounds for some time now.

Research did reveal a clue about crossover frequency, from guess who...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post55814594

My mind can't imagine what a woofer is supposed to sound like scattered off a wall (or mounting plate), though. I really would like to hear them.

Do the RS152 go on sale with the rest of the Reference line?

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HT System advice for $1500 budget with questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
When he posted that last night, I wondered, "why didn't I know about these before?". I've been searching for ideal surrounds for some time now.



Research did reveal a clue about crossover frequency, from guess who...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post55814594



My mind can't imagine what a woofer is supposed to sound like scattered off a wall (or mounting plate), though. I really would like to hear them.



Do the RS152 go on sale with the rest of the Reference line?

so far i read a few things about how they worked well with the rest of the matching set, that’s why i just got the whole 150 reference lineup figuring it would all match up.

and yes they did go on sale with everything else, they were $170 (edit: normally $450)shipped 2nd day air during the sale.
i was told on the phone they will do the same sale next year.
also if you call they will give u an extra 20% off that price guaranteed.

i actually got a 30% coupon code but it was after i got everything...still haven’t used it

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post #203 of 215 Old 07-20-2019, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...pole-vs-bipole



I guess the difference between bipole and dipole isn't to do with the directions of the drivers, but whether or not they're in-phase. So who knows what the Infinitys are. But this article says the reason to run the drivers out of phase would be to avoid bass cancellation... since only the tweeters are pointing in different directions with these speakers, I suspect they're in-phase and thus bipoles.



I'd be curious to know what the crossover frequency is for these speakers. It seems like it would be tricky to get sound from the mid-woofer to integrate correctly.

yeah they’re definitely interesting.
until i pulled them out of the box i didn’t even realize driver was on the back.
here’s what it says on the site about the design:
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post #204 of 215 Old 07-20-2019, 06:32 PM
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I wonder if their HST refers to side to side, or also vertical dispersion? Surrounds tend to be a little bit higher than our heads when seated.

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post #205 of 215 Old 07-20-2019, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I wonder if their HST refers to side to side, or also vertical dispersion? Surrounds tend to be a little bit higher than our heads when seated.


not sure but after some more searching i’m finding that every review is very positive!
not very many but there is talk about them and i’m not seeing any negatives.


amazon has a decent review referring to sound and dispersion that i’ll copy an paste:

“The Infinity RS152 solved a few problems for me:
1. The Primus Speakers stuck out way too far from the wall projecting the sound past the listening area, therefore I had to turn them way up so that I could hear them properly.
2. The old Bookshelves Projected all of the sound Forward, which did not work for the configuration of my listening area.

My Current Stereo Components are:
Marantz SR6500
Infinity Alpha 50's Bi Wired in Front (They are old, but they still sound super good).
Klipsh 200 Watt SubWoofer
Infinity PC351BK Center Channel
Infinity RS152 In the rear

Pro's:
The RS152's sound amazing, and can be heard very well in the entire listening area.
Very Visually Appealing.
These speakers take a wide footprint, but not a long footprint, which is what my Listening area requires.
Projected sound in 180 degrees, making the sound fill areas that ordinary bookshelves just would not reach.
Mounting these speakers was easy, and it did not seem to matter much from left to right where on the wall I mounted them, the sweet spot is pretty wide.
The sound matches up well with my older Infinity Speakers.

Cons:
None at this time

The Infinity RS152's sound really good with everything I threw at them so far (music and movies). They present a very crisp, clean, and well behaved sound (Just like all of Infinity CMMD based speakers). I do not expect to get much Bass out of these (That's not their job anyway), but the high's and mid's sound awesome. The effect of the sound being projected in 180 degrees instead of forward, really enhanced the sound in my listening area.These speakers are right out of the box. I need to play them for a bit, break them in, but once I ran my Audessy setup, they integrated into my setup seamlessly.”
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post #206 of 215 Old 07-20-2019, 06:59 PM
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Yeah, that's what I need. Most speakers I'm looking at would not serve us well sitting in our seats without spending on brackets to angle them, but then I'm getting too much direct sound from speakers only 1-2 meters away, and one can easily run into them on their way to sit down. I will watch for the next sale on these as I need a wide sound field from a speaker than can sit relatively flat on the wall.
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Yeah, that's what I need. Most speakers I'm looking at would not serve us well sitting in our seats without spending on brackets to angle them, but then I'm getting too much direct sound from speakers only 1-2 meters away, and one can easily run into them on their way to sit down. I will watch for the next sale on these as I need a wide sound field from a speaker than can sit relatively flat on the wall.


yeah i’ll be mounting mine up soon and it sounds like it would be perfect for you then.
ill tag u here when they are cuz i follow the site emails closely.

•also if anyone wants to get a lot of stuff from harmon if prefer if someone got really good use out of my 30% off code that i may not use
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post #208 of 215 Old 07-20-2019, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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not sure if this is a good deal or a popular tower but it looks like a good deal to me as a noob.
i’ve read good things about them
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not sure if this is a good deal or a popular tower but it looks like a good deal to me as a noob.
i’ve read good things about them
The are very nice speakers but also big so check dimensions before ordering.
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not sure if this is a good deal or a popular tower but it looks like a good deal to me as a noob.
i’ve read good things about them ...
I posted this in a different thread but I'll paraphrase... I'm not really sure what the deal is with these JBL home audio speakers.

Revel is Harman's top brand for home audio. So you have to assume that whatever Revel does, Harman thinks it's the best for home audio.

Infinity speakers look more or less like Revels, lots of similar characteristics, they just don't look as nice and they cost less.

JBL speakers look very little like Revel or Infinity speakers... so why would you get them? Are they supposed to be similar or better than Revels in some regard? If so, why does Harman even make Revels? Or rather, why don't Revel speakers look like JBL speakers? It's confusing...
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